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59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as m

by edw519 12y ago

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've seen tons of different technologies, many old ones I still use. But I also get very jazzed learning new stuff and incorporating it into my toolbox. I know tons of programmers in my age group. I'd classify them into 2 groups: 25% - just like me. You don't see our resumes because we're very happy building cool stuff and rarely look for work. We've also seen it all and can smell something we're not interested in a mile away. You don't see us at many events because we're so busy with work and life, we only pick the ones with the most promise of bang for the buck. Most of the programmers I know in this group would make phenomenal additions to many startups, but don't recognize this as a compelling alternative to what they're already doing. The best way to engage us is to seek us out, make friends, and share some stories about something cool you're working on. 75% - one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience. Unaware of modern technology. Couldn't write Hello World in anything other than BASIC, FORTRAN, or COBOL (and would probably misspell 50% of the words). No imagination. Limited ability to visualize the possibilities. Hiding under the radar in some enterprise. You don't want these people.

chton 12y ago
"one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience." is a fantastic sentence and I'm stealing it. I've seen too many developers to whom it applies, and it's a great way to express that.
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  An HR manager said this to my mother's face once. Please consider people's feelings before using it. It's likely to be interpreted as "you've wasted your career and/or life".
  - erikb 12y ago
    It's not necessarily a bad thing to hear something that sounds bad. Even after years on this planet people can rediscover themselves and start a kind of life they didn't even know it exists. Not telling people who are bad that they are bad is a concept I have a hard time to understand. Instead of worrying about feelings why not worry about really being this better person people can't complain (as much) about?
    - m0nty 12y ago
      > Not telling people who are bad that they are bad is a concept I have a hard time to understand. You might be wrong, and you should factor that in. Perhaps you're not helping people towards a bright new future of self-realization, just condemning them out-of-hand based on your own limited experience or misconceptions? (Not using "you" to imply you do this, btw.)
      - jdmichal 12y ago
        I really wish English would develop a pronoun similar to the German man. I guess we used to use "one" in a similar sense, but it sounds really stilted now. > Perhaps one isn't helping people towards a bright new future...
      - erikb 12y ago
        I myself have the experience of overestimating myself drastically many times. Also there are a few things I got good enough in. Therefore I think, when you get feedback and the person giving the feedback is wrong due to their lack of skill, not yours, then you are not really hurt. The only thing that is harmed is your impression and respect for that person. When you are sincerely hurt, it's often you who's lacking. Never the less it's important to think carefully before criticising others. You are absolutely right and I'll try to keep that in mind next time I want to tell someone how bad they are.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
      No it's not a bad thing. Problem is that way too many people use this as an excuse to be an asshole. Remember that no one likes to be criticized. If you need to do that, you owe the person the basic human dignity of considering their feelings and being diplomatic.
- danielweber 12y ago
  "One year's experience 5 times" is a very old expression. I first heard it applied to real-estate agents, and it was very old then. I went Googling for its origin and the first link just took me back to HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4627373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4627373
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  Are you one of the people who use it to describe serial contractors or "job hoppers", or are you one of the people who use it to describe people who've been iterating on the same project/technology system for X years in a single place? That's the problem with the generalization: it's too general, can be applied to almost any normal career, and isn't really a good heuristic to use when analyzing somebody's work experience in most contexts.
  - chton 12y ago
    I'd use for people who claim X years of experience, but haven't made any progress in ability in those X years. You can spend 30 years evolving, or you can spend it standing still and only moving when you have no other option. This kind of phrase is for the latter kind, doesn't matter if they're serial contractors or have been working on the same project for 30 years.
boothead 12y ago
I for one would welcome the opportunity to find and learn from people like you. If you guys don't hang out at the latest hot technology meetup and you don't change jobs that much (or that publicly) where does one go to seek you out and make friends?
31reasons 12y ago
>>75% - one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience. You don't want these people. You are basically saying 75% of the developers after certain age are useless. I don't agree or disagree with your statement . Just startled. What does it say about software development as a career ? Would you say the same thing for lawyers or doctors with 30 years experience? This is depressing.
- sixQuarks 12y ago
  why are you startled? Have you never heard of the 20/80 rule? It appears in almost every dataset. The top 20% of any set do 80% of the work. Example: The top 20% of a population owns 80% of the wealth. And yes, this applies to other occupations as well.
  - chillingeffect 12y ago
    Yes and even among the 80% who are useless, they are useful 20% of the time. I work with a few people like that... They either need a challenge, an end date or other creative ways of being motivated.
  - Beltiras 12y ago
    It's called the Pareto Principle(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) and it does not need to be a symmetric 80/20 split. 1% of the people own 50% of the wealth is one other application of the same math.
    - Emphaticdotco 12y ago
      Wikipedia doesn't do narrative justice to the interesting history behind Pareto. We tried to correct that in this blog post (http://www.emphatic.co/blog/know-stuff-think-shouldnt/ http://www.emphatic.co/blog/know-stuff-think-shouldnt/).
- hcho 12y ago
  Lawyers and doctors are not too different.The premise is true for most of white collar jobs, if not all.
throwaway876876 12y ago
Thanks for sharing. I find it quite amusing, but in my observation, this 25%/75% split can be found in each age group you'd look at...
zeratul 12y ago
I think no one is like Ed. There maybe be 25% of programmers that have a long standing experience, even with the new tools, but they don't share wisdom like Ed does. Ed why can't you have your own company? Why can't you be the one who is hiring or at least teach others how to hire. I bet you can smell a talent from 1000 miles away - even if someone did not finish a good school; the world of software engineering would make so much more sense. [EDIT:] I imagine a job interview; an interviewee says: "I didn't program this but I did program something more difficult"; interviewer makes a frowny face; Ed comes round the corner, puts his hand on the interviewer shoulder and says: "He did not call you stupid; he just said he is ready for the challenge - he has the experience".
- jonwachob91 12y ago
  He already answered your question: 1. He doesn't take a job unless it's challenging. They don't post on HN or go to conferences because they are busy with so much work and life (hence no wisdom sharing). 2. If he is a freelancer (which his post makes him sound like), than he does own his own company. It's just not a software startup looking for VC or articles in big magazines. 3. He's not hiring because he wants to program, not do HR. Also, Michael Jordan can't pick players for shit and he's the best BB player in history. Skill in a job doesn't mean you can find talent, and the level that he would jump and say a person has talent is probably the level where said person doesn't need recognition to know their skill. 4. If a team does a good job outlining job requirements and interviewing, they too can smell talent from 1000 miles away. But interviewing every applicant with a 2.0GPA from a bottom tier school takes a lot of time and most often does not reveal a hidden gem. Regardless of what their potential is.
- s1300045 12y ago
  I think it's interesting people would assume so. Good programmers don't always make good managers. Or business owner. The same reason why not every good carpenter runs a business and manages a team of people. Highly skilled experts are probably disciplined enough to freelance or work as a contractor. But the skills necessary to grow an enterprise are often a very different set of experiences outside of what they do for a living. Or they simply aren't interested. They are happy with what they do. On the other hand, seasoned programmers do make great interviewers. And a good interview often include them in the process. Their insights are very valuable. Also as a sidenote, if there is no senior/lead developer during your interview process. Or the people do not appear to have a clue. Run. Unless they are going to hire your as the senior/lead, and they admit they lack the knowledge.
matwood 12y ago
one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience. This exactly and it happens at all ages. I interviewed someone not long ago who had 5 years experience. It turned out they learned their job in 3-6 mos. and just repeated that same job for 5 years. I was amazed how little else they knew.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
forgotAgain 12y ago
75% or perhaps 85% of programming is CRUD applications. It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking you're advancing technically when in fact you're just becoming very knowledgeable about a cul-de-sac. Most programmers don't take this path by choice. They just don't see it as its happening. You have to pro-actively manage your developer career if you want it to grow over the long haul.
mattmanser 12y ago
Why is this comment getting upvoted? It's pretty insulting and arrogant to paint a massive swathe of our community as stupid, unambitious people who never progressed past hello world. Let's remember that in those 42 years the number of BASIC, FORTRAN, or COBOL jobs has diminished through to almost nothing. The last person I met who described themselves as a COBOL programmer was about 10 years ago, and even they said they did it for the money as there were so few of them left. So the programmers edw519's knows have in all probability probably managed to switch from COBOL to to VB6, then Java or PHP and then maybe even C# or Ruby and are probably nowhere near as stagnant or unambitious as he's portraying them. It's that or he hangs round at COBOL programmer's meetups.
- FD3SA 12y ago
  I felt the same, but I've come to realize that the comment you take issue with perfectly encapsulates the tech industry. A no holds barred race to the bottom. That's why work conditions, salary, stability and prestige are nowhere near comparable industries such as finance, heavy engineering, medicine, law, etc. Something about programmers makes them think they are all the destined one true hero, and as a result, programmers tend to disparage and disrespect their own peers, at great cost to themselves. My favorite is this guy [1], who was literally adding billions of dollars of revenue for Goldman Sachs, but was getting paid peanuts. When he left to pursue more interesting work (not for salary!), they brought the FBI down on him. I don't call myself a programmer, computer scientist, or any such low class term anymore. I'm a consultant, and I don't associate with self-deprecating professionals who denigrate their own fields. Humans are primates, and we form status hierarchies. Proudly exclaiming that your tribe is at the very bottom is the definition of stupidity. Good luck to those that do, I sincerely wish you the best. But when your salary stagnates, you're asked to work 80hr weeks without overtime, and you get no respect from management, maybe its time for a little self-reflection. There is a reason software dev is such a low status profession, and it's not because we're "nerds". It's because we self-denigrate and self-deprecate like no other profession on earth. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov EDIT: It is worth reading this article if you'd like some more details on this problem, from a fellow HN member who has dedicated a lot of time to thinking about it [2]. 2. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other-half-works-an-adventure-in-the-low-status-of-software-engineers/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other...
MCRed 12y ago
I build cool stuff, I have kept up to date on new technologies, and languages. But I don't have a big network of people who "need a website" and I don't build websites, so I don't have people constantly calling me offering me work. That doesn't make me someone who has "done the same job for 30 years". My skill is not marketing my skills on a freelance basis. My skill is in engineering.. and a variety of others (like startups, people management, etc.) I hate 80/20 like splits that are so binary. Part of the problem here is that it's very difficult for many people under 30 to imagine someone over 40 is not falling into your %75 category. They already think that most people can't do fizz buzz. I once had an interview with a 20 year old with 2 years of experience. HE was the head of development at one of those startups that raised millions on kickstarter. He asked me the question: "How would you do feature X in language Y?". I pointed out that you couldn't do it in language Y but that you could do these other things that were similar. He then said " In language Z you do this and that's the answer I was looking for". But language Z is not the same as language Y. Flubbing a question? No problem. Everyone can get nervous. Giving a BS question and then using the "wrong" answer as a reason to not hire me? Suspicious. So, why would he try to do that? Well, it turns out we were on a video call. Who wants to hire someone old enough to be their dad? I understand that sentiment. But the Software Industry hasn't developed a pyramid of job titles you can climb.
- hcho 12y ago
  I am finding a bit difficult to understand the "I am not good at networking" angle. Assuming a job change every 3 years, and 2 people to vouch for you at each, one would have a 10 people "marketing team" after 15 years. I am not talking about schmoozing with higher ups here; just impressing peers with the quality of work. Am I missing something?
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    There are introverts, and then there are introverts. I can easily see somebody who is particularly introverted not developing a deep network after 10, 20, or even 30 years of experience, simply because they are very introverted (or socially maladjusted; the two are different, but in a world run by extroverts it is arguable that they may as well not be). I'm not that introverted, but I'm introverted enough that it is by sheer luck I have more than two people from my first few jobs I could ask for references or even directly for work. My last couple of jobs, however, have been another matter--I "got over it," as they say, and have put more effort into networking. I even recently developed a connection completely outside of work! Leavnig that aside, sometimes people move or switch focus or have to take jobs at crappy "body shop" companies to make ends meet during a bust, etc. Hence the quality of the network isn't necessarily good enough to have the kind of "I need a job, whatcha got" connections you mention.
shanemhansen 12y ago
Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you to learn the flavor-of-the-month js framework. It's no surprise that we don't see many experienced professionals competing for what are essentially entry-level jobs (despite the use of the word senior in the job title and despite the high salaries inexperienced developers command). Obviously not all experienced professionals have built up that network. Those are the people you see applying for jobs. Source: I spent a couple years getting to know a network of CTO's and architects who have been doing ecommerce since it's inception. They are in demand, they don't apply for jobs, and they are paid handsomely, and yes some of them are grandfathers or grandmothers.
- vonmoltke 12y ago
  > Right now there is a [firehose] of job offers from recruiters on linkedin Interview offers, and they only come to the people who have the right combination of keywords and location. Miss on one or both of those counts, and you are invisible. The second seems to be much more important than the first, too.
  - shanemhansen 12y ago
    I'd agree with that. I'd add that I live in Salt Lake City, Utah and still get a fair amount of offers. I realize it might be quite different in other countries.
    - vonmoltke 12y ago
      I know Texas likes to claim is is "a whole other country", but sometimes living in Dallas it feels like that. It seems like nobody comes looking in Dallas from outside the area.
- ryandrake 12y ago
mathattack 12y ago
An observation and a questions... I've observed that Group 2 (your 75%) frequently winds up in "Director of IT" positions where they can productively re-use that year over and over again keeping the ship running. Some of it is a lack of imagination, some just a simple desire for stability. Either way, they get very stuck. Their firms can't afford for them to do anything else, and they have to take a pay cut if anything bad happens. Now my question.... By keeping a low profile, do you feel you are artificially lower your wages or opportunities? You're in the same boat as the top 3 or 4 developers I know - very talented, well paid, jobs find them, and employable in any market. But sometimes I wonder if they could get paid more if they were more visible, simply from supply/demand. (They have a scarce skill, increasing the demand for it should increase the wages) Or is it that anyone who would properly employ them is by definition outside mainstream hiring and would know them already?

by edw519 12y ago

chton 12y ago

"one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience." is a fantastic sentence and I'm stealing it. I've seen too many developers to whom it applies, and it's a great way to express that.

nsxwolf 12y ago
An HR manager said this to my mother's face once. Please consider people's feelings before using it. It's likely to be interpreted as "you've wasted your career and/or life".
- erikb 12y ago
  It's not necessarily a bad thing to hear something that sounds bad. Even after years on this planet people can rediscover themselves and start a kind of life they didn't even know it exists. Not telling people who are bad that they are bad is a concept I have a hard time to understand. Instead of worrying about feelings why not worry about really being this better person people can't complain (as much) about?
  - m0nty 12y ago
    > Not telling people who are bad that they are bad is a concept I have a hard time to understand. You might be wrong, and you should factor that in. Perhaps you're not helping people towards a bright new future of self-realization, just condemning them out-of-hand based on your own limited experience or misconceptions? (Not using "you" to imply you do this, btw.)
    - jdmichal 12y ago
      I really wish English would develop a pronoun similar to the German man. I guess we used to use "one" in a similar sense, but it sounds really stilted now. > Perhaps one isn't helping people towards a bright new future...
    - erikb 12y ago
      I myself have the experience of overestimating myself drastically many times. Also there are a few things I got good enough in. Therefore I think, when you get feedback and the person giving the feedback is wrong due to their lack of skill, not yours, then you are not really hurt. The only thing that is harmed is your impression and respect for that person. When you are sincerely hurt, it's often you who's lacking. Never the less it's important to think carefully before criticising others. You are absolutely right and I'll try to keep that in mind next time I want to tell someone how bad they are.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
    No it's not a bad thing. Problem is that way too many people use this as an excuse to be an asshole. Remember that no one likes to be criticized. If you need to do that, you owe the person the basic human dignity of considering their feelings and being diplomatic.
danielweber 12y ago
"One year's experience 5 times" is a very old expression. I first heard it applied to real-estate agents, and it was very old then. I went Googling for its origin and the first link just took me back to HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4627373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4627373
Iftheshoefits 12y ago
Are you one of the people who use it to describe serial contractors or "job hoppers", or are you one of the people who use it to describe people who've been iterating on the same project/technology system for X years in a single place? That's the problem with the generalization: it's too general, can be applied to almost any normal career, and isn't really a good heuristic to use when analyzing somebody's work experience in most contexts.
- chton 12y ago
  I'd use for people who claim X years of experience, but haven't made any progress in ability in those X years. You can spend 30 years evolving, or you can spend it standing still and only moving when you have no other option. This kind of phrase is for the latter kind, doesn't matter if they're serial contractors or have been working on the same project for 30 years.

boothead 12y ago

I for one would welcome the opportunity to find and learn from people like you. If you guys don't hang out at the latest hot technology meetup and you don't change jobs that much (or that publicly) where does one go to seek you out and make friends?

31reasons 12y ago

>>75% - one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience. You don't want these people. You are basically saying 75% of the developers after certain age are useless. I don't agree or disagree with your statement . Just startled. What does it say about software development as a career ? Would you say the same thing for lawyers or doctors with 30 years experience? This is depressing.

sixQuarks 12y ago
why are you startled? Have you never heard of the 20/80 rule? It appears in almost every dataset. The top 20% of any set do 80% of the work. Example: The top 20% of a population owns 80% of the wealth. And yes, this applies to other occupations as well.
- chillingeffect 12y ago
  Yes and even among the 80% who are useless, they are useful 20% of the time. I work with a few people like that... They either need a challenge, an end date or other creative ways of being motivated.
- Beltiras 12y ago
  It's called the Pareto Principle(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) and it does not need to be a symmetric 80/20 split. 1% of the people own 50% of the wealth is one other application of the same math.
  - Emphaticdotco 12y ago
    Wikipedia doesn't do narrative justice to the interesting history behind Pareto. We tried to correct that in this blog post (http://www.emphatic.co/blog/know-stuff-think-shouldnt/ http://www.emphatic.co/blog/know-stuff-think-shouldnt/).
hcho 12y ago
Lawyers and doctors are not too different.The premise is true for most of white collar jobs, if not all.

throwaway876876 12y ago

Thanks for sharing. I find it quite amusing, but in my observation, this 25%/75% split can be found in each age group you'd look at...

zeratul 12y ago

I think no one is like Ed. There maybe be 25% of programmers that have a long standing experience, even with the new tools, but they don't share wisdom like Ed does. Ed why can't you have your own company? Why can't you be the one who is hiring or at least teach others how to hire. I bet you can smell a talent from 1000 miles away - even if someone did not finish a good school; the world of software engineering would make so much more sense. [EDIT:] I imagine a job interview; an interviewee says: "I didn't program this but I did program something more difficult"; interviewer makes a frowny face; Ed comes round the corner, puts his hand on the interviewer shoulder and says: "He did not call you stupid; he just said he is ready for the challenge - he has the experience".

jonwachob91 12y ago
He already answered your question: 1. He doesn't take a job unless it's challenging. They don't post on HN or go to conferences because they are busy with so much work and life (hence no wisdom sharing). 2. If he is a freelancer (which his post makes him sound like), than he does own his own company. It's just not a software startup looking for VC or articles in big magazines. 3. He's not hiring because he wants to program, not do HR. Also, Michael Jordan can't pick players for shit and he's the best BB player in history. Skill in a job doesn't mean you can find talent, and the level that he would jump and say a person has talent is probably the level where said person doesn't need recognition to know their skill. 4. If a team does a good job outlining job requirements and interviewing, they too can smell talent from 1000 miles away. But interviewing every applicant with a 2.0GPA from a bottom tier school takes a lot of time and most often does not reveal a hidden gem. Regardless of what their potential is.
s1300045 12y ago
I think it's interesting people would assume so. Good programmers don't always make good managers. Or business owner. The same reason why not every good carpenter runs a business and manages a team of people. Highly skilled experts are probably disciplined enough to freelance or work as a contractor. But the skills necessary to grow an enterprise are often a very different set of experiences outside of what they do for a living. Or they simply aren't interested. They are happy with what they do. On the other hand, seasoned programmers do make great interviewers. And a good interview often include them in the process. Their insights are very valuable. Also as a sidenote, if there is no senior/lead developer during your interview process. Or the people do not appear to have a clue. Run. Unless they are going to hire your as the senior/lead, and they admit they lack the knowledge.

matwood 12y ago

one year's experience 30 times, not 30 years experience. This exactly and it happens at all ages. I interviewed someone not long ago who had 5 years experience. It turned out they learned their job in 3-6 mos. and just repeated that same job for 5 years. I was amazed how little else they knew.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

forgotAgain 12y ago

75% or perhaps 85% of programming is CRUD applications. It's very easy to fall into the trap of thinking you're advancing technically when in fact you're just becoming very knowledgeable about a cul-de-sac. Most programmers don't take this path by choice. They just don't see it as its happening. You have to pro-actively manage your developer career if you want it to grow over the long haul.

mattmanser 12y ago

Why is this comment getting upvoted? It's pretty insulting and arrogant to paint a massive swathe of our community as stupid, unambitious people who never progressed past hello world. Let's remember that in those 42 years the number of BASIC, FORTRAN, or COBOL jobs has diminished through to almost nothing. The last person I met who described themselves as a COBOL programmer was about 10 years ago, and even they said they did it for the money as there were so few of them left. So the programmers edw519's knows have in all probability probably managed to switch from COBOL to to VB6, then Java or PHP and then maybe even C# or Ruby and are probably nowhere near as stagnant or unambitious as he's portraying them. It's that or he hangs round at COBOL programmer's meetups.

FD3SA 12y ago
I felt the same, but I've come to realize that the comment you take issue with perfectly encapsulates the tech industry. A no holds barred race to the bottom. That's why work conditions, salary, stability and prestige are nowhere near comparable industries such as finance, heavy engineering, medicine, law, etc. Something about programmers makes them think they are all the destined one true hero, and as a result, programmers tend to disparage and disrespect their own peers, at great cost to themselves. My favorite is this guy [1], who was literally adding billions of dollars of revenue for Goldman Sachs, but was getting paid peanuts. When he left to pursue more interesting work (not for salary!), they brought the FBI down on him. I don't call myself a programmer, computer scientist, or any such low class term anymore. I'm a consultant, and I don't associate with self-deprecating professionals who denigrate their own fields. Humans are primates, and we form status hierarchies. Proudly exclaiming that your tribe is at the very bottom is the definition of stupidity. Good luck to those that do, I sincerely wish you the best. But when your salary stagnates, you're asked to work 80hr weeks without overtime, and you get no respect from management, maybe its time for a little self-reflection. There is a reason software dev is such a low status profession, and it's not because we're "nerds". It's because we self-denigrate and self-deprecate like no other profession on earth. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov EDIT: It is worth reading this article if you'd like some more details on this problem, from a fellow HN member who has dedicated a lot of time to thinking about it [2]. 2. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other-half-works-an-adventure-in-the-low-status-of-software-engineers/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other...

MCRed 12y ago

I build cool stuff, I have kept up to date on new technologies, and languages. But I don't have a big network of people who "need a website" and I don't build websites, so I don't have people constantly calling me offering me work. That doesn't make me someone who has "done the same job for 30 years". My skill is not marketing my skills on a freelance basis. My skill is in engineering.. and a variety of others (like startups, people management, etc.) I hate 80/20 like splits that are so binary. Part of the problem here is that it's very difficult for many people under 30 to imagine someone over 40 is not falling into your %75 category. They already think that most people can't do fizz buzz. I once had an interview with a 20 year old with 2 years of experience. HE was the head of development at one of those startups that raised millions on kickstarter. He asked me the question: "How would you do feature X in language Y?". I pointed out that you couldn't do it in language Y but that you could do these other things that were similar. He then said " In language Z you do this and that's the answer I was looking for". But language Z is not the same as language Y. Flubbing a question? No problem. Everyone can get nervous. Giving a BS question and then using the "wrong" answer as a reason to not hire me? Suspicious. So, why would he try to do that? Well, it turns out we were on a video call. Who wants to hire someone old enough to be their dad? I understand that sentiment. But the Software Industry hasn't developed a pyramid of job titles you can climb.

hcho 12y ago
I am finding a bit difficult to understand the "I am not good at networking" angle. Assuming a job change every 3 years, and 2 people to vouch for you at each, one would have a 10 people "marketing team" after 15 years. I am not talking about schmoozing with higher ups here; just impressing peers with the quality of work. Am I missing something?
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  There are introverts, and then there are introverts. I can easily see somebody who is particularly introverted not developing a deep network after 10, 20, or even 30 years of experience, simply because they are very introverted (or socially maladjusted; the two are different, but in a world run by extroverts it is arguable that they may as well not be). I'm not that introverted, but I'm introverted enough that it is by sheer luck I have more than two people from my first few jobs I could ask for references or even directly for work. My last couple of jobs, however, have been another matter--I "got over it," as they say, and have put more effort into networking. I even recently developed a connection completely outside of work! Leavnig that aside, sometimes people move or switch focus or have to take jobs at crappy "body shop" companies to make ends meet during a bust, etc. Hence the quality of the network isn't necessarily good enough to have the kind of "I need a job, whatcha got" connections you mention.

shanemhansen 12y ago

Right now there is a firehouse of job offers from recruiters on linkedin, and all a good developer has to do to find work is take a drink from that firehose. While I enjoy the current situation, it's unlikely to last. Sometimes we forget that there's plenty of people who have simply built up a clientele and a repuation through plain old networking. These jobs tend to be more lucrative and probably don't require you to learn the flavor-of-the-month js framework. It's no surprise that we don't see many experienced professionals competing for what are essentially entry-level jobs (despite the use of the word senior in the job title and despite the high salaries inexperienced developers command). Obviously not all experienced professionals have built up that network. Those are the people you see applying for jobs. Source: I spent a couple years getting to know a network of CTO's and architects who have been doing ecommerce since it's inception. They are in demand, they don't apply for jobs, and they are paid handsomely, and yes some of them are grandfathers or grandmothers.

vonmoltke 12y ago
> Right now there is a [firehose] of job offers from recruiters on linkedin Interview offers, and they only come to the people who have the right combination of keywords and location. Miss on one or both of those counts, and you are invisible. The second seems to be much more important than the first, too.
- shanemhansen 12y ago
  I'd agree with that. I'd add that I live in Salt Lake City, Utah and still get a fair amount of offers. I realize it might be quite different in other countries.
  - vonmoltke 12y ago
    I know Texas likes to claim is is "a whole other country", but sometimes living in Dallas it feels like that. It seems like nobody comes looking in Dallas from outside the area.
ryandrake 12y ago

mathattack 12y ago

An observation and a questions... I've observed that Group 2 (your 75%) frequently winds up in "Director of IT" positions where they can productively re-use that year over and over again keeping the ship running. Some of it is a lack of imagination, some just a simple desire for stability. Either way, they get very stuck. Their firms can't afford for them to do anything else, and they have to take a pay cut if anything bad happens. Now my question.... By keeping a low profile, do you feel you are artificially lower your wages or opportunities? You're in the same boat as the top 3 or 4 developers I know - very talented, well paid, jobs find them, and employable in any market. But sometimes I wonder if they could get paid more if they were more visible, simply from supply/demand. (They have a scarce skill, increasing the demand for it should increase the wages) Or is it that anyone who would properly employ them is by definition outside mainstream hiring and would know them already?