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Knuth: Open Letter to Condoleezza Rice (2002)
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- ionfish 13y agoHere is the cartoon Knuth refers to. http://www.danzigercartoons.com/archive/cmp/2002/danziger1415.html http://www.danzigercartoons.com/archive/cmp/2002/danziger141...
- JasonFruit 13y agoIs there a point to the piano name? I know that Bösendorfer is a high-end piano maker, but it looks like Danziger has altered it to Boshendorfer, or Buchendorfer, or something like that. Intentional, or just a mistake? EDIT: I'm an idiot. It's "Bushendorfer".
- broken 13y ago[2002]
- MBCook 13y ago[2002]
- jgemedina 13y agoand she's a dropbox board member!
- boondox 13y agoIt doesn't get any clearer than that...
- wging 13y agoSeems to be down; here's a mirror: https://web.archive.org/web/20070712113441/http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/rice.html https://web.archive.org/web/20070712113441/http://www-cs-fac...
- not_paul_graham 13y agoI really hope that these top posts on HN influence at least some employees at Dropbox to resign publicly because Dropbox's core (meaty revenue generating) users aren't HN readers anymore, but the mass market & enterprises that aren't going to care.
- mark212 13y agoYou have that backwards. Plenty of corporate managers will look at this addition to the board of directors and think "A serious adult non-tech leader just joined, I can now take this company seriously."
- zhaphod 13y agoPeople who beat drums of war have so many dollars stuffed in their ears that they can't hear the cries of people killed by bombs and bullets.
- kelvin0 13y agoA bit more polish on that sentence could make it in a poetic gem. Seriously.
- NotOscarWilde 13y agoI think it's important to ask not only whether somebody is a good ideological representative for a company, but also whether ousting them does us any good. The parties on both sides of the Rice/Dropbox debate have good arguments: * Ms. Rice has been a very important representative of a US administration that caused a lot of people to die in Iraq and elsewhere; * but she is not the only one in the government of that day, and many other (non-bullied) politicians are complicit as well; * and the current president has not shown much anti-torture sympathies either, yet him being branded a Democrat makes him much less of a target. I believe channeling energy to make Ms. Rice leave Dropbox solves nothing. Channeling the same outrage to make the elective system into a non-money-based race, to make the politicians accountable for what they promise before elections -- that may solve something. As a non-American, stating an opinion is about all I can help you with. Good luck!
- thenmar 13y agoHow are those two things at all comparable? Changing the elective system might require nothing short of a constitutional amendment. At least voicing outrage about Rice/Dropbox raises awareness of privacy issues. You can't just say, "this one thing your doing isn't going to make a radical paradigm shifting difference, so you should just sit around until someone drops one of those in your lap."
- NotOscarWilde 13y ago> You can't just say "this one thing your doing isn't going to make a radical paradigm shifting difference, so you should just sit around until someone drops one of those in your lap." You're presenting a false dichotomy. If I am concerned with how my government handles privacy, shouldn't I take it up with the government? If I am concerned with how my goverment tortures and murders people, shouldn't I take it up with the goverment? I understand people like Ms. Rice are hard to prosecute because most of the government data that would serve as evidence are kept secret for a long time, if not forever. Isn't that just another point which you should take up with the government? Bullying some private citizen because you can't sue him through legal means seems hardly fair.
- 13y ago
- m52go 13y agoSimply removing Condi as a board member doesn't solve anything. The move to make her a board member puts the motivations of the entire Dropbox leadership team in question. Today, Dropbox hurt its reputation very badly, regardless how this ultimately plays out.
- Tloewald 13y agoAnd it's such a bizarre move. What's the upside?
- fennecfoxen 13y agoThey wanted a board member with international experience, as they hope to expand internationally. Including, as TechCrunch put it, to "deal with foreign governments that have blocked its use".
- jbooth 13y agoYou don't think there's more money in her US Government contacts?
- er35826 13y agoThere's money in both places to be made. They're not exclusive.
- AJ007 13y agoWe know Gaddafi had a crush on her, but does she provide positive PR for international users? Certainly there is a more neutral person who could accomplish the same thing.
- NegativeK 13y agoDropbox isn't going to put her name or face on billboards. Her connections and knowledge of international stuffs is what Dropbox is hoping she'll bring.
- dmix 13y agoAmazon is building a $600 million datacenter for the CIA. The CIA did all of the bad things listed in Dropbox article as directed by Bush and Condoleezza, and they are still actively trying to cover up torture. I've never heard anyone here not using EC2 over it? The tech scenes pitchfork mobs are wildly inconsistent. I have a feeling this one hit a nerve because Condoleezza Rice is famously hated across the internet and in the press (especially on the Daily Show) and this isn't really about upholding some strong high-moral consistency that we all have.
- Sir_Cmpwn 13y agoI don't use EC2 over it. I host a site with a million+ pageviews per month with >250GiB of user data and I host it with Voxility. It used to be on AWS. Edit: FWIW, I also don't use dropbox. I use rsync and a VPS.
- raheemm 13y agoDK's letter is from 2002. Which makes it even more admirable.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
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- mbesto 13y agoCurious - should we be crucifying Stanford as well? http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/users/condi http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/users/condi
- Zigurd 13y agoWhy not? UCB caught quite a bit of flak over John Yoo. If a med school were to employ one of the psychologists who helped design torture at Gitmo I wouldn't expect that to remain quiet.
- gretful 13y agoI wonder how many people here will feel the same about, for instance, Rahm in Chicago, or others of Obama's circle of friends, when they begin moving into private business? Will they be held to the same standards?
- nb4hnp 13y agoI would certainly hope that any filthy politician would be held accountable for their actions, regardless of which administration they served under.
- Zigurd 13y agoSilicon Valley and the Military Industrial Complex need to see other people. It was a pretty hot relationship for a while, but the MIC turned out to be kind of a creeper. They put a camera in the shower, and lied about it. That's not healthy.
- mathattack 13y agoIt may help to put 2002 in the title, as this relates to the war in Iraq rather than Dropbox. (It's still interesting, and worth an upvote!) When people go after her, I wonder, "What about Kissinger?" He was part of a lot of cold hard decisions in tough times on the world. That said, I would enjoy his counsel if I wanted to get involved in China. Similar with her, though her expertise may be more in Russia. My (non-expert) observation is she was pushed and marginalized by the hawks. And although the war sounds bad now, the country was very much for it back then.
- sitkack 13y agoKissinger is widely and wildly despised. East Timor, Cambodia and extending the Vietnam war by years is his bullshit legacy. If someone can reincarnated before they die, then Kissinger => Condoleeza
- mathattack 13y agoYes - this is my point. He is despised, but still is knowledgable, and I'd listen to him about China. Granted this is about tapping specific knowledge. I would never hire someone with a morality deficit as an employee. (And maybe it would be dangerous to have one as the CEO's boss)
- sitkack 13y agoI have thought about this, and given his amoral behavior and deeply rooted ulterior motives I could not trust a single thing he said, or even how he said it. There are plenty of experts on subject matter that are not equivalently tainted. side note: this is really weird meeting http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10095943/Osborne-Clarke-and-Balls-to-attend-Bilderberg-Group-meeting.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10095943/Osborne-Cl...
- mathattack 13y agoFair enough. People rarely only sell half their soul.
- edw519 13y agoYou lost me at almost blindly supports Israel's increasingly unjustifiable occupation. Why is it that people who know so much about one thing feel compelled to open their big mouths about something else they clearly know so little about?
- probably_wrong 13y agoWhich part are you objecting about, the implication that the US blindly supports Israel, or the implication that Israel's occupations are unjustifiable?
- Pxtl 13y agoAnybody who holds a simple one-sided opinion on Israel/Palestine is wrong, full-stop. Criticizing US government officials for their excessive support of Israel is reasonable. Blanketing all of Israel's various incursions into Palestinian territory as "unjustifiable" is bad for the discussion and makes an otherwise-reasonable person look extremist.
- binarytrees 13y agoMust be a zionist :)
- GFK_of_xmaspast 13y agoIn 2002 Israel was killing Palestinians with tanks instead of with hunger and blockades.
- gogobyte 13y agoKnuth, you stinky shit, I hope you die after 999 months suffering! You dirty racist!
- mschuster91 13y ago"that almost blindly supports Israel's increasingly unjustifiable occupation"... I wonder why that one hasn't been called out yet. Where are the Israel fanatics?
- detcader 13y agoI've seen a lot of comments here pontificate about being above "political litmus tests." Torture is political? Death on mass scale is political now? Wiretapping is political? Violation of international law is a political stance? Noam Chomsky thanks you for proving his points for him.
- sitkack 13y ago"Politics" is a hobby that can only be done in private between 5:39 and 5:43.
- pavelrub 13y agoI don't understand what people are admiring here. This "letter" is nothing more than a meaningless rant by a person whose field of expertise has nothing to do with politics, economy, international relations or terrorism. Donald Knuth is a great computer scientist, but hearing him talking about international politics is like hearing any other random person on the street. Also: "...and that almost blindly supports Israel's increasingly unjustifiable occupation". Seriously? Let the downvotes begin.
- koevet 13y agoWhat do you find unserious in that statement about Israel?
- pavelrub 13y agoJust that regardless of your political inclinations, you need to be extremely ignorant of the complexity of the situation in the Middle East to be able to make such clear cut statements about what's justifiable and what's not. Disclaimer: I live in Israel.
- koevet 13y agoAre we all ignorant? http://marthiemombergblog.com/2014/03/30/i-have-one-child-the-one-you-shot-today/ http://marthiemombergblog.com/2014/03/30/i-have-one-child-th...
- pavelrub 13y agoYes. Drawing conclusions based on isolated events, without attempting to understand the reality or the context in which those things happen, and without hearing the other side of the story, is a good indicator of ignorance.
- koevet 13y agoisolated events? I can keep on posting links for the next few days, if you want me to...
- jebblue 13y ago>> P.S. This is the second time in my life that I have written a letter to a U.S. government official. The first time was during the Vietnam war. I wonder if he wrote it to Lyndon B. Johnson asking why he started the war in the first place or perhaps querying how much involvement he had in the Kennedy assassination.
- rhspeer 13y agodown for me, this is the google cached version for the lazy: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww-cs-faculty.stanford.edu%2F~uno%2Frice.html&oq=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww-cs-faculty.stanford.edu%2F~uno%2Frice.html&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.6087j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%...
- atmosx 13y agoKnuth never stops to amaze me. I didn't study CS, so to me he is one of those places that I probably never go. But still gaze with admiration and a little bit of terror. Cached copy here[1]. [1] http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.google.com/search%3Fq%3Dcache:http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/rice.html&usg=AFQjCNG1MHsVMSR3fgbXAzGoOzQg4eq8ug http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.google.com/searc...
- supergeek133 13y agoI can't really handle this... Is this what we've become? So short sighted? I know few who didn't want to blow up the entire middle east after 9/11, right, wrong, or indifferent. I'm also fairly sure government was relatively in agreement about the war when it started. Unless you hold EVERYONE in the current administration, and everyone in government in general for the past 20 years regardless of party to the same standard, stop it here. Torture? OK. Hasn't stopped. Stealing of information? Hasn't stopped. Didn't start with them, if you don't believe that, you're ignorant. Just obvious evidence of it starts here. In the end, do you think that DropBox leadership didn't think about this? I hope they did, and were prepared for it. I'm rambling a bit, but some of the anger here I guarantee won't be directed equally.
- mtimjones 13y agoWhy not talk about Obama's war in Afghanistan, or increasing tensions with Russia, or abuse of spying? Way more relevant than a 12 year old letter...
- shmerl 13y ago> almost blindly supports Israel's increasingly unjustifiable occupation Stopped reading since there, since it sounds like a usual blind rant and not anything to do with reality or reason. The moment conflict in Israel kicks in, many otherwise reasonable people lose common sense (it can go in either direction about the sides of the conflict IMHO). Not sure why it's so really. Otherwise valid criticism is discredited by such cliche phrases which don't suit someone like Knuth.
- frou_dh 13y agoNo one cares about "stopped reading" pronouncements. Spare us and tell your goldfish instead.
- shmerl 13y agoDo you think I care about you not caring? Not in the least. Especially if you try to tell me not to express my opinion.
- frou_dh 13y agoIt's the "stopped reading" meme that's obnoxious, and probably a lie too in this case given the whole thing is less than a page.
- shmerl 13y agoIt's not a lie. I stopped reading from there, since it discredited his criticism for me, by showing that he uses stereotypical cliches, rather than something substantial. In general I agree that Condoleezza Rice has a lot to be criticized for, but throwing in cliche phrases doesn't help his cause.
- rasur 13y ago>Not sure why it's so really. FWIW I think it's because the debate over the occupation of Palestine usually devolves into name-calling and accusations of anti-semitism etc within the space of.. well minutes at best, usually. Many people flip their "froth at the mouth" bit pretty quickly under those circumstances, be they reasonable people or not.. and so we see little reasoned debate on the subject.
- fedxc 13y agoI am glad to see an American stating the following: >If we peremptorily strike country X, why shouldn't country X have a right to do the same to us, and to our children and grandchildren in future years?
- FD3SA 13y agoOh, and for our friendly HN militants, who are coming out in droves to support the Iraq war: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/17/iraq.oil http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/17/iraq.oil Occam's razor is your friend.
- sparkzilla 13y agoEveryone is guilty of having opinions and actions that others do not like so let's just boycott everything and everybody and be done with it.
- shrnky 13y agoThis whole episode reminds me that staunch liberals are no different than religious fundamentalists AFAIK. Same nature, different nurture. Both groups hypocrisy knows no bounds.
- mjolk 13y agoWhat hypocrisy are you speaking of? Why do you feel that his questioning the motivation of war makes Knuth a "staunch liberal?"
- grifpete 13y agoShe has been an outspoken apologist for some pretty heinous policies. It is rational to assume she hasn't changed.
- BenefitOfDoubt 13y agoIronic that is is highly likely that the majority here who are posting criticisms actually were in support of the Iraq was at the time that it happened. Many here also support/vote for government officials who voted for and supported it at the time. It is understandable but sad that not only will people not admit this, but that they criticize someone who felt the same as they did at the time. You may justify your actions by saying that we civilians did not have the intel that Condi, the President, and congress had at the time. This may be true, but how do you know what intel that they actually had and if it was even good intel (Congress did and you still support them). Many of you here criticizing Condi, support Hillary/Benghazi and excuse her because she had bad intel. The scale of course is much different, but you sure that you are not applying different standards to different people because of political bias? I think yes. I am sure that I do the same things, it is human nature (I am not saying that it is morally right though). I just wanted to put this out there, Food for thought.