9 ms·

Windows 8.1 forces the user to interact in a way that doesn’t work

84 points by hanifbbz 13y ago

withinrafael 13y ago
I think there's more than meets the eye here. The OP didn't receive the drivers from WU. Instead he downloaded them from Wacom, suggesting they're not Windows Hardware Certification Program certified. And that's probably because amongst other things, the driver set is reporting touch inputs where there are none, perhaps for some specialized Wacom case/use. Had these been certified, I believe the OP would have received slightly more useful mouse-specific tips.
miguelrochefort 13y ago
His point is valid. The ability to dismiss these tips would be ideal. However, most people would skip them and complain about how "unusable" Windows 8 is (without even taking a minute to learn the basics). In my opinion, these mandatory tutorials are a necessary evil. The real issue here is that Windows 8 somehow recognizes Wacom pads as touch inputs (with swiping from sides support). If it recognized it as a mouse, it would simply tell the user to use "hot corners": - Top-Left: App switching - Bottom-Left: Start screen - Top/Bottom-Right: Charms menu A one-time unskippable tutorial that you can get through in less than 10 seconds is probably not worth complaining about. Displaying the wrong directions to Wacom users is.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  There is no mandatory user tutorial for the iPad. True, sometimes you need to teach the user to do something, but if you're forcing this even for basic usage, you're doing it wrong (unless this was a really specific tool/procedure, and even then)
  - DCKing 13y ago
    This is not true. The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage. See vim or Blender as examples. I would argue that Windows 8, even in its RT form, is far more powerful than iOS in this sense. Once you get used to all the swipes, it is much quicker to access OS features, perform multitasking and do all kinds of things. Microsoft did not build a bad OS by any means. As someone who can take this learning curve, I really enjoy using it on a tablet (I think it's much superior than iOS and superior to Android when it comes to the core OS), and I also like its Metro features a lot on my desktop. What Microsoft did very wrong however is building this interface for an audience where the overwhelming majority is not willing to take this learning curve. It's simply not built for the "average user".
    - raverbashing 13y ago
      "The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage" Or better said: "The most powerful tools that don't care for user experience often require a lot of 'teaching'" Unless you're talking about something like a CNC machine, Electronic test equipment, EEC machine, etc 'It's simply not built for the "average user"' No? Then they shot themselves in the foot, because Windows is associated with that, more than anyone. Hence, they can't complain it's not selling well. It's very easy to shy from making things easy to use behind "it has more features".
      - hanifbbz 13y ago
        "The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage" I guess he meant tank or nuke or something ;)
    - bztzt 13y ago
      The problem with Windows 8 on traditional PC form factors is it deliberately ignores ("blows up") the model that's been fixed over 20 years in users' heads and replaces it with a new model they've attempted to design from scratch from first principles. It's not that the new model is especially complex or badly designed on its own terms, it just clashes with the model people already have in their heads. That is also why people often say the Windows 8 UI works well with touch, but is unusable with mouse and keyboard. The inherent usability characteristics are actually not hugely different between input methods, it's just that with touch there's not as much competition in people's heads from an entrenched existing model.
  - sp332 13y ago
    The iPhone ran tons of ads showing people how to navigate and use swipes and pinch-to-zoom before the product was released. That's really not an obvious thing to do with a phone, if you've never seen it before.
    - raverbashing 13y ago
      Yes. There's also the Apple Stores where you can play with them, so it was already clear in the mind of early adopters how to use it. Cleverly subtle.
    - hanifbbz 13y ago
      The main complain is not the "education" thing. It is the compulsory nature of it and the fact that Windows even mis-detected a digital pen as a touch interface that makes it totally useless and rather annoying.
      - jodrellblank 13y ago
        compulsory I keep seeing this idea around Win 8 discussions. You aren't compelled to buy it. So a company no longer offers a product you like, that doesn't mean you have to buy something you don't like from them. Even if you do have to buy, you make the choice - Win 8 and trade offs or Mac or Linux or Chromebook or second hand Win 7. It's not compulsory that you have Win 8.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      It seems that 2 year old babies that have never seen the ads knew how to do these things just fine. Heck, there are even videos of cats playing with an iPad and getting it to scroll and such. Swipe with finger to scroll, tap to press, and even pinch-to-zoom are as basic interaction as interaction goes. You only need a second to get them if shown, and most people can even discover them instantly without being shown.
      - roasty 13y ago
        It still takes a 2 year old time to learn, same for a cat. They don't instantly get it.
- rwallace 13y ago
  It's the other way around. There's no way to test your software with every hardware device on Earth or to guarantee that it can't have bugs. If it wasn't the Wacom pad it would be something else. That's understandable and forgivable because it's unavoidable. The real issue is the immense and unforgivable stupidity of writing a program that behaves as though it were the master and the human were its servant. A manual override is not an optional extra, a checkbox item or something open to debate. It is an absolute necessity, because the human operator understands what's going on and the machine doesn't. Anyone who doesn't understand that should not be writing user-facing software.
- teamonkey 13y ago
  I think the problem is the drivers (Microsoft's or Wacom's). It may be overriding the Windows gesture support in favour of it's own? I own a Wacom Bamboo without touch input and I'm fairly sure it prompted me to use the pen to perform the gestures, not a finger. In any case I could certainly follow the instructions with the pen. On my Surface I can use both pen and touch to perform the gestures. I agree about the need to skip tutorials though. After 4 Win 8 installs it gets tiring.
- joe_the_user 13y ago
  * However, most people would skip them and complain about how "unusable" Windows 8 * Most people complain anyway about how unusable Windows 8 is and rightly so. Your argument here does seem to reflect Microsoft's attitude - that Windows 8 is the ambassador of the latest crap and its job to train you on this crap whether you like it or not. Never mind that you own this hardware and you should be able to do as you will with it. I suppose MS imagines that shifting to a subscription model for everything would solve that problem of theirs - then the custom would own nothing and have recourse at having junk foisted on them.
  - miguelrochefort 13y ago
    Your point?
riffraff 13y ago
microsoft does that all the time. Last week I tried to signup for windows azure. It asked me to enter my credit card data, I did it and it was ok, then the signup fails without explanation ("contact support"). What is happening is, I believe: I am forced to enter a billing address in the country from which I am _connecting_ (hungary), but my card is from another one (italy). The first thing is stated _nowhere_ but I presume it is so after various attempts at inserting non-hungarian zip codes. So the card is valid, the billing address is valid, but an additional check is performed that the two have a matching country, which fails. Also not stated anywhere. There is no way I can workaround this other than taking a plane or getting a new credit card. Customer lost. (bonus: the "support" is the "windows azure" stackoverflow tag, which I don't think is competent re: billing, and an MSDN forum where people say "this happens sometimes, there can be many reasons sorry").
- computerslol 13y ago
  I'd flag you for fraud and ask you to contact support too. (Former fraud prevention research scientist)
  - hga 13y ago
    Of course, but your observation is not terribly useful given that per riffraff, pre-sales support of this sort is not available.
  - riffraff 13y ago
    Ok. Would you do only that or also one of these options * put an error message "you are trying to use a card issued in X from Y, contact support" * put a prefilled unchangeable field containing the current country * signal an error on all fields when I insert something invalid (say, country and city) rather than only the zip code * block the transaction before you validate my card Because if so, you're better than what is currently available. If not, I'd be happy to understand what would be the downsides of doing these things :) EDIT: also I realized now: you'd flag me if I put a non matching _billing address_ rather than if I use a card from abroad? That seems counterintuitive :)
neals 13y ago
I've been putting off switching from W7 for 2 years now. I hated how the Wacom worked on the first version fo Windows 8. Check this page to see how much pain they have been putting people through: http://viziblr.com/news/2012/8/18/windows-8-rtm-and-wacom-tablets-even-more-flawed-than-before.html http://viziblr.com/news/2012/8/18/windows-8-rtm-and-wacom-ta...
wila 13y ago
I've seen this in a VM (with no touch support at all) I ignored it. IIRC I just pressed the windows key, went back to desktop and presto, forced swipe how-to gone. If not, just reboot.. isn't that the way all serious problems in Windows are fixed? ;) All things taken aside I do agree that the simple solution, an "x" button is missing.
- hanifbbz 13y ago
  "If not, just reboot.. isn't that the way all serious problems in Windows are fixed? ;)" Well said! :D
  - thaJeztah 13y ago
    And, apparently the official way to do things ;) "your computer will restart in 10 minutes", no you cannot finish your presentation, or keep to your deadline. We will forcibly restart your PC and don't allow you to save your work when the countdown has completed... This update solves a potential data-loss probl......... One customer less. Problem solved!
rayiner 13y ago
The basic problem is that gestures are non-discoverable, and should not be used for core functionality.
- groovy2shoes 13y ago
  Yes. I recently purchased a Windows 8.1 laptop and had to turn to Google to figure out how to reboot it. And when I do discover a gesture, it's by accident and it screws up whatever I was trying to do.
  - hanifbbz 13y ago
    I googled it to learn how to reboot my computer too. And quite confusingly it turned out I have to go to "Settings" menu in order to reboot my machine! Weird! Doesn't make sense.
    - octopus 13y ago
      A few (many) years ago I bought myself a Windows 95 computer. In order to reboot the computer I had to use the "Start" button. Weird, didn't make any sense. Once your muscle memory start working, it becomes like a second nature to use Settings->Reboot (like using the "Start" button in the old days). The human mind can create habits, with a bit of initial struggle, from anything. Give it some time.
      - bztzt 13y ago
        Both do make sense insofar as they are consistent with the design model/philosophy of their respective OS shells. In Windows 95 the model is that Start is your starting point for everything you do with a computer. Moreover, managing and configuring a PC was regarded as a core activity for all users, so management functions like shutdown/restart and the control panel got a prominent top-level place in Start. For Windows 8 the design mantras were "content over chrome", "users should be able to enjoy just using a PC without feeling like they have to manage it", and "each view in the UI should have one clear purpose". Therefore Start was dedicated to "destinations" like apps and content, while management and configuration functions like control panel and shutdown/restart (meta-functions that are about the PC or app itself, not what you do with it) were moved to the Settings charm (could've been called "settings and management"), sort of like tucking away wires and cables. Of course, making sense in terms of your design model is no guarantee a decision will make sense in terms of the user's model.
evadne 13y ago
There. Disable the help tips with Group Policy Editor. http://superuser.com/questions/666247/hide-win-8-1-tip-about-switch-between-apps http://superuser.com/questions/666247/hide-win-8-1-tip-about...
- Aoyagi 13y ago
  I'm (somewhat) sure that this works only in 8 Pro.
  - evadne 13y ago
    Indeed :( http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/04/16/announcing-the-windows-8-editions.aspx http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2...
    - Aoyagi 13y ago
      I learned it when I tried to get rid of that annoying lockscreen you get in 8 before entering password. The one you're supposed to swipe up. It can (or could) be removed only through group policies. Thanks for confirming it's still a thing.
    - hanifbbz 13y ago
      I never understood this "versioning" thing! If they have written the code for the complete Windows once, why can't they have just one version? I mean why force poor people to have less feature?
      - meepmorp 13y ago
        I thnk it's less about forcing poor people to have fewer features, and more about forcing people (businesses, really) with more resources and needs to pay more.
      - eli 13y ago
        It's called price discrimination and it's common among many, many products and services. If there was only one version then you'd either have to price it higher than the "cheap" version, which will lead to price conscious consumers choosing a competitor. Charge less and you're leaving money on the table from businesses that are happy to pay more. It's the same logic behind "Senior Discounts" and coupons.
bifftannen 13y ago
These tips we're there in Windows 8. People complained that there was no tutorial.
- hanifbbz 13y ago
  the tips by themselves are quite good. The problem is that they are compulsory and in this case even wrong and there's no easy way to get rid of them.
blueskin_ 13y ago
Unskippable tutorials. Windows 8 failure #426,208.
sigsergv 13y ago
There also should be button “Close this and don't show anything like that!”.
sdegutis 13y ago
Maybe. But you know what? So do OS X and Linux.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
ufmace 13y ago
I gotta wonder, is anybody at Microsoft really surprised that their decision to completely rework all of their 25-year standards of how their OS works has side effects of varying levels of bad in a huge number of relatively obscure use cases? This sounds like such a textbook example of why you don't do that. I'm still running Windows 7 on my desktop PC. It has a mouse and keyboard. I have no intention of ever getting any kind of touchscreen, pen tablet, touchpad, or other alternative input device for it. I'll show some enthusiasm for upgrading when they make the mouse and keyboard first-class citizens again, instead of treating them like an afterthought in an attempt to get some traction on tablets.
- MikusR 13y ago
  Have you actually used Windows 8?
  - faddotio 13y ago
    I have, and I think he's correct - Metro is fundamentally different than any Windows to date. The evolution from 3.1 to where we are today was slow and steady, with innovation happening in little fits but never breaking with the basic GUI interaction model. Then Microsoft boiled the oceans to give us Metro. It is a clean break. You don't agree, I take it?
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  Ignoring Modern UI in Windows 8 is relatively easy: http://www.gizmag.com/windows-81-modern-ui/29552/ http://www.gizmag.com/windows-81-modern-ui/29552/
  - redidas 13y ago
    Ignoring Modern UI does not make Modern UI completely disappear. Nor does it change the fact that Microsoft thought this was a good idea. Poor usability is poor usability. Microsoft messed this one up, and it will impact them and a lot of peoples perceptions of the future of Windows.

84 points by hanifbbz 13y ago

I think there's more than meets the eye here. The OP didn't receive the drivers from WU. Instead he downloaded them from Wacom, suggesting they're not Windows Hardware Certification Program certified. And that's probably because amongst other things, the driver set is reporting touch inputs where there are none, perhaps for some specialized Wacom case/use. Had these been certified, I believe the OP would have received slightly more useful mouse-specific tips.

miguelrochefort 13y ago

His point is valid. The ability to dismiss these tips would be ideal. However, most people would skip them and complain about how "unusable" Windows 8 is (without even taking a minute to learn the basics). In my opinion, these mandatory tutorials are a necessary evil. The real issue here is that Windows 8 somehow recognizes Wacom pads as touch inputs (with swiping from sides support). If it recognized it as a mouse, it would simply tell the user to use "hot corners": - Top-Left: App switching - Bottom-Left: Start screen - Top/Bottom-Right: Charms menu A one-time unskippable tutorial that you can get through in less than 10 seconds is probably not worth complaining about. Displaying the wrong directions to Wacom users is.

raverbashing 13y ago
There is no mandatory user tutorial for the iPad. True, sometimes you need to teach the user to do something, but if you're forcing this even for basic usage, you're doing it wrong (unless this was a really specific tool/procedure, and even then)
- DCKing 13y ago
  This is not true. The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage. See vim or Blender as examples. I would argue that Windows 8, even in its RT form, is far more powerful than iOS in this sense. Once you get used to all the swipes, it is much quicker to access OS features, perform multitasking and do all kinds of things. Microsoft did not build a bad OS by any means. As someone who can take this learning curve, I really enjoy using it on a tablet (I think it's much superior than iOS and superior to Android when it comes to the core OS), and I also like its Metro features a lot on my desktop. What Microsoft did very wrong however is building this interface for an audience where the overwhelming majority is not willing to take this learning curve. It's simply not built for the "average user".
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    "The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage" Or better said: "The most powerful tools that don't care for user experience often require a lot of 'teaching'" Unless you're talking about something like a CNC machine, Electronic test equipment, EEC machine, etc 'It's simply not built for the "average user"' No? Then they shot themselves in the foot, because Windows is associated with that, more than anyone. Hence, they can't complain it's not selling well. It's very easy to shy from making things easy to use behind "it has more features".
    - hanifbbz 13y ago
      "The most powerful tools often require a lot 'teaching' and have a steep learning curve even for basic usage" I guess he meant tank or nuke or something ;)
  - bztzt 13y ago
    The problem with Windows 8 on traditional PC form factors is it deliberately ignores ("blows up") the model that's been fixed over 20 years in users' heads and replaces it with a new model they've attempted to design from scratch from first principles. It's not that the new model is especially complex or badly designed on its own terms, it just clashes with the model people already have in their heads. That is also why people often say the Windows 8 UI works well with touch, but is unusable with mouse and keyboard. The inherent usability characteristics are actually not hugely different between input methods, it's just that with touch there's not as much competition in people's heads from an entrenched existing model.
- sp332 13y ago
  The iPhone ran tons of ads showing people how to navigate and use swipes and pinch-to-zoom before the product was released. That's really not an obvious thing to do with a phone, if you've never seen it before.
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    Yes. There's also the Apple Stores where you can play with them, so it was already clear in the mind of early adopters how to use it. Cleverly subtle.
  - hanifbbz 13y ago
    The main complain is not the "education" thing. It is the compulsory nature of it and the fact that Windows even mis-detected a digital pen as a touch interface that makes it totally useless and rather annoying.
    - jodrellblank 13y ago
      compulsory I keep seeing this idea around Win 8 discussions. You aren't compelled to buy it. So a company no longer offers a product you like, that doesn't mean you have to buy something you don't like from them. Even if you do have to buy, you make the choice - Win 8 and trade offs or Mac or Linux or Chromebook or second hand Win 7. It's not compulsory that you have Win 8.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    It seems that 2 year old babies that have never seen the ads knew how to do these things just fine. Heck, there are even videos of cats playing with an iPad and getting it to scroll and such. Swipe with finger to scroll, tap to press, and even pinch-to-zoom are as basic interaction as interaction goes. You only need a second to get them if shown, and most people can even discover them instantly without being shown.
    - roasty 13y ago
      It still takes a 2 year old time to learn, same for a cat. They don't instantly get it.
rwallace 13y ago
It's the other way around. There's no way to test your software with every hardware device on Earth or to guarantee that it can't have bugs. If it wasn't the Wacom pad it would be something else. That's understandable and forgivable because it's unavoidable. The real issue is the immense and unforgivable stupidity of writing a program that behaves as though it were the master and the human were its servant. A manual override is not an optional extra, a checkbox item or something open to debate. It is an absolute necessity, because the human operator understands what's going on and the machine doesn't. Anyone who doesn't understand that should not be writing user-facing software.
teamonkey 13y ago
I think the problem is the drivers (Microsoft's or Wacom's). It may be overriding the Windows gesture support in favour of it's own? I own a Wacom Bamboo without touch input and I'm fairly sure it prompted me to use the pen to perform the gestures, not a finger. In any case I could certainly follow the instructions with the pen. On my Surface I can use both pen and touch to perform the gestures. I agree about the need to skip tutorials though. After 4 Win 8 installs it gets tiring.
joe_the_user 13y ago
* However, most people would skip them and complain about how "unusable" Windows 8 * Most people complain anyway about how unusable Windows 8 is and rightly so. Your argument here does seem to reflect Microsoft's attitude - that Windows 8 is the ambassador of the latest crap and its job to train you on this crap whether you like it or not. Never mind that you own this hardware and you should be able to do as you will with it. I suppose MS imagines that shifting to a subscription model for everything would solve that problem of theirs - then the custom would own nothing and have recourse at having junk foisted on them.
- miguelrochefort 13y ago
  Your point?

riffraff 13y ago

microsoft does that all the time. Last week I tried to signup for windows azure. It asked me to enter my credit card data, I did it and it was ok, then the signup fails without explanation ("contact support"). What is happening is, I believe: I am forced to enter a billing address in the country from which I am _connecting_ (hungary), but my card is from another one (italy). The first thing is stated _nowhere_ but I presume it is so after various attempts at inserting non-hungarian zip codes. So the card is valid, the billing address is valid, but an additional check is performed that the two have a matching country, which fails. Also not stated anywhere. There is no way I can workaround this other than taking a plane or getting a new credit card. Customer lost. (bonus: the "support" is the "windows azure" stackoverflow tag, which I don't think is competent re: billing, and an MSDN forum where people say "this happens sometimes, there can be many reasons sorry").

computerslol 13y ago
I'd flag you for fraud and ask you to contact support too. (Former fraud prevention research scientist)
- hga 13y ago
  Of course, but your observation is not terribly useful given that per riffraff, pre-sales support of this sort is not available.
- riffraff 13y ago
  Ok. Would you do only that or also one of these options * put an error message "you are trying to use a card issued in X from Y, contact support" * put a prefilled unchangeable field containing the current country * signal an error on all fields when I insert something invalid (say, country and city) rather than only the zip code * block the transaction before you validate my card Because if so, you're better than what is currently available. If not, I'd be happy to understand what would be the downsides of doing these things :) EDIT: also I realized now: you'd flag me if I put a non matching _billing address_ rather than if I use a card from abroad? That seems counterintuitive :)

neals 13y ago

I've been putting off switching from W7 for 2 years now. I hated how the Wacom worked on the first version fo Windows 8. Check this page to see how much pain they have been putting people through: http://viziblr.com/news/2012/8/18/windows-8-rtm-and-wacom-tablets-even-more-flawed-than-before.html http://viziblr.com/news/2012/8/18/windows-8-rtm-and-wacom-ta...

wila 13y ago

I've seen this in a VM (with no touch support at all) I ignored it. IIRC I just pressed the windows key, went back to desktop and presto, forced swipe how-to gone. If not, just reboot.. isn't that the way all serious problems in Windows are fixed? ;) All things taken aside I do agree that the simple solution, an "x" button is missing.

hanifbbz 13y ago
"If not, just reboot.. isn't that the way all serious problems in Windows are fixed? ;)" Well said! :D
- thaJeztah 13y ago
  And, apparently the official way to do things ;) "your computer will restart in 10 minutes", no you cannot finish your presentation, or keep to your deadline. We will forcibly restart your PC and don't allow you to save your work when the countdown has completed... This update solves a potential data-loss probl......... One customer less. Problem solved!

rayiner 13y ago

The basic problem is that gestures are non-discoverable, and should not be used for core functionality.

groovy2shoes 13y ago
Yes. I recently purchased a Windows 8.1 laptop and had to turn to Google to figure out how to reboot it. And when I do discover a gesture, it's by accident and it screws up whatever I was trying to do.
- hanifbbz 13y ago
  I googled it to learn how to reboot my computer too. And quite confusingly it turned out I have to go to "Settings" menu in order to reboot my machine! Weird! Doesn't make sense.
  - octopus 13y ago
    A few (many) years ago I bought myself a Windows 95 computer. In order to reboot the computer I had to use the "Start" button. Weird, didn't make any sense. Once your muscle memory start working, it becomes like a second nature to use Settings->Reboot (like using the "Start" button in the old days). The human mind can create habits, with a bit of initial struggle, from anything. Give it some time.
    - bztzt 13y ago
      Both do make sense insofar as they are consistent with the design model/philosophy of their respective OS shells. In Windows 95 the model is that Start is your starting point for everything you do with a computer. Moreover, managing and configuring a PC was regarded as a core activity for all users, so management functions like shutdown/restart and the control panel got a prominent top-level place in Start. For Windows 8 the design mantras were "content over chrome", "users should be able to enjoy just using a PC without feeling like they have to manage it", and "each view in the UI should have one clear purpose". Therefore Start was dedicated to "destinations" like apps and content, while management and configuration functions like control panel and shutdown/restart (meta-functions that are about the PC or app itself, not what you do with it) were moved to the Settings charm (could've been called "settings and management"), sort of like tucking away wires and cables. Of course, making sense in terms of your design model is no guarantee a decision will make sense in terms of the user's model.

evadne 13y ago

There. Disable the help tips with Group Policy Editor. http://superuser.com/questions/666247/hide-win-8-1-tip-about-switch-between-apps http://superuser.com/questions/666247/hide-win-8-1-tip-about...

Aoyagi 13y ago
I'm (somewhat) sure that this works only in 8 Pro.
- evadne 13y ago
  Indeed :( http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2012/04/16/announcing-the-windows-8-editions.aspx http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/bloggingwindows/archive/2...
  - Aoyagi 13y ago
    I learned it when I tried to get rid of that annoying lockscreen you get in 8 before entering password. The one you're supposed to swipe up. It can (or could) be removed only through group policies. Thanks for confirming it's still a thing.
  - hanifbbz 13y ago
    I never understood this "versioning" thing! If they have written the code for the complete Windows once, why can't they have just one version? I mean why force poor people to have less feature?
    - meepmorp 13y ago
      I thnk it's less about forcing poor people to have fewer features, and more about forcing people (businesses, really) with more resources and needs to pay more.
    - eli 13y ago
      It's called price discrimination and it's common among many, many products and services. If there was only one version then you'd either have to price it higher than the "cheap" version, which will lead to price conscious consumers choosing a competitor. Charge less and you're leaving money on the table from businesses that are happy to pay more. It's the same logic behind "Senior Discounts" and coupons.

bifftannen 13y ago

These tips we're there in Windows 8. People complained that there was no tutorial.

hanifbbz 13y ago
the tips by themselves are quite good. The problem is that they are compulsory and in this case even wrong and there's no easy way to get rid of them.

blueskin_ 13y ago

Unskippable tutorials. Windows 8 failure #426,208.

sigsergv 13y ago

There also should be button “Close this and don't show anything like that!”.

sdegutis 13y ago

Maybe. But you know what? So do OS X and Linux.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

ufmace 13y ago

I gotta wonder, is anybody at Microsoft really surprised that their decision to completely rework all of their 25-year standards of how their OS works has side effects of varying levels of bad in a huge number of relatively obscure use cases? This sounds like such a textbook example of why you don't do that. I'm still running Windows 7 on my desktop PC. It has a mouse and keyboard. I have no intention of ever getting any kind of touchscreen, pen tablet, touchpad, or other alternative input device for it. I'll show some enthusiasm for upgrading when they make the mouse and keyboard first-class citizens again, instead of treating them like an afterthought in an attempt to get some traction on tablets.

MikusR 13y ago
Have you actually used Windows 8?
- faddotio 13y ago
  I have, and I think he's correct - Metro is fundamentally different than any Windows to date. The evolution from 3.1 to where we are today was slow and steady, with innovation happening in little fits but never breaking with the basic GUI interaction model. Then Microsoft boiled the oceans to give us Metro. It is a clean break. You don't agree, I take it?
w1ntermute 13y ago
Ignoring Modern UI in Windows 8 is relatively easy: http://www.gizmag.com/windows-81-modern-ui/29552/ http://www.gizmag.com/windows-81-modern-ui/29552/
- redidas 13y ago
  Ignoring Modern UI does not make Modern UI completely disappear. Nor does it change the fact that Microsoft thought this was a good idea. Poor usability is poor usability. Microsoft messed this one up, and it will impact them and a lot of peoples perceptions of the future of Windows.