10 ms·
USPS: ZIP Codes are “proprietary business information”
- awor 13y agoCanada Post considers Canadian Postal Codes to be copyrighted information as well. A Canadian "geographic data" company (Geolytica Inc.) has been sued for copyright infringement[0]. [0] http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canada-post-sues-over-postal-code-data-copyright-1.1208723 http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canada-post-sues-over-post... That link is from April 2012, not sure where the case went after that.
- bennyg 13y agoIs there no list online for this?
- byoung2 13y agoThis is the one I've used in the past: http://dev.maxmind.com/geoip/legacy/geolite/ http://dev.maxmind.com/geoip/legacy/geolite/
- warmfuzzykitten 13y agoSeems like the author is going out of his way to create controversy. He can't figure out the zip codes in one county in Oregon without help from the post office? I doubt the restaurants that report the zip codes have any official assistance.
- geetee 13y agoIt is certainly lame to lock the data behind exorbitant fees, but I agree with you. Considering how he intends to use the data, any of the freely available lists online would be good enough.
- showerst 13y agoThe point is that this is extremely useful public data. Since so many things in daily life besides just shipping require an address, this information should really be in the commons.
- dogweather 13y agoAuthor here. Yep, it's part of the country's infrastructure. This kind of restriction adds costs in a million little ways.
- nickff 13y agoOne might argue that by making a blog post on any subject, no matter what its importance to the author, is "going out of his way to create controversy". In addition, his post never states that he is unable to "figure out the zip codes", it only describes the policy and practice of the USPS.
- spodek 13y agoThe issue here is that their quote is in government-speak that not everyone can understand. Translated into plain English: "proprietary business information" means "this nation's copyright and patent systems are horribly and possibly irrevocably broken and many government departments are so unaccountable they feel so entitled and lawless they care more about making their jobs easy than serving the people paying their salaries." When you read it that way everything makes sense. EDIT: many posts on whether the USPS is government or not. I hope we don't lose sight of the forest of bureaucracies large and entrenched enough to skirt accountability and twist IP laws in ways the Constitution never intended while focusing on that tree. That is, the details of its connection to the government don't change its behavior.
- adestefan 13y agoThe USPS isn't a government department.
- toomuchtodo 13y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service "The United States Postal Service (USPS), also known as the Post Office and U.S. Mail, is an independent agency of the United States federal government responsible for providing postal service in the United States. It is one of the few government agencies explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution." If the US constitution is how you're created, you're given a monopoly on delivering mail in the US, and you're governed by Congress, you're part of the US government.
- adestefan 13y agoWould you define the Federal Reserve as part of the government?
- toomuchtodo 13y agoYes. http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the Congress of the United States. It is considered an independent central bank because its monetary policy decisions do not have to be approved by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by the Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by the Congress, which often reviews the Federal Reserve's activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government" rather than "independent of government."
- nwzpaperman 13y agoBuilding geospatial information systems is tough inside a single nation, but try doing it on an international scale!
- mikeocool 13y agohttp://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/geo/shapefiles2013/main http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/geo/shapefiles2013/main - Select ZIP code tabulation areas from the dropdown. They're not perfect, but they're almost definitely good enough for the author's purposes. More info on how the Census Bureau creates them: http://www.census.gov/geo/reference/zctas.html http://www.census.gov/geo/reference/zctas.html (they take a surprisingly circuitous route)
- fixxer 13y agoExactly what I was thinking. There are a gazillion (count 'em) ways to get around this "data product" BS. USDA statistics would work, too.
- DjangoReinhardt 13y agoWait, USPS is a privately owned entity? If not, aren't products of government entities public by default? Therefore, any proprietary information is owned by the public, isn't it? Or did I completely misunderstand the whole thing?
- Finster 13y agoTell that to the NSA. They just Cease&Desist'd on intellectual property grounds someone who made a satirical t-shirt using their logo.
- hyborg787 13y agoThings can be in the public domain, but have restricted usage - example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_insignia#Usage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_insignia#Usage
- ForHackernews 13y agoCurrently, it's kind of semi-privatized: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_Reorganization_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_Reorganization_Act But Congress still has oversight over it, and it's legally obligated to service all Americans. There are some people who think we should go further, and fully privatize it: http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/usps http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/usps
- tibbon 13y agoReading about that now. I always thought they were 'federal employees', because it was a federal service.
- jack-r-abbit 13y agoAm I missing something here that prevents the use of the Google Maps API for postal code look ups[1]? https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/ https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/
- timmaah 13y agoThere is Google's terms of service for one.
- kennywinker 13y agoThere was a post on HN a while ago explaining why people should be building / using alternatives to google for geo stuff. The largest reason being that MANY uses are against the TOS of the google geocoding API. Particularly, I think, anything that's not user-facing and free/freely available. I can't seem to dig up a link, but a the case is made here (though not as well): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#Why_don.27t_you_just_use_Google_Maps.2Fwhoever_for_your_data.3F http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FAQ#Why_don.27t_you_just_... EDIT: found it http://petewarden.com/2013/09/09/why-you-should-stop-pirating-googles-geo-apis/ http://petewarden.com/2013/09/09/why-you-should-stop-piratin...
- jack-r-abbit 13y agoI recall that article about the Data Science Toolkit. Thanks.
- maxcan 13y agohave you tried openstreetmaps or just using the google maps API?
- kennywinker 13y agoCanada Post is currently trying to assert a similar ownership over our postal codes. See http://geocoder.ca/?sued=1 http://geocoder.ca/?sued=1 or http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canada-post-sues-over-postal-code-data-copyright-1.1208723 http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canada-post-sues-over-post... for more details. Really messed up. Geocoder.ca crowd-sourced a database of Postal Code -> lat/long information, and have been giving it away for years. Even some government organizations use their data, and yet our postal service is trying to shut them down to drive customers towards their $5,000/year + many strings attached product.
- MichaelGG 13y agoThat's beyond idiotic. He claims they further went on to sue him personally on the grounds that "postal code" is a trademark. 1: http://eruci.com/2013/04/23/k2c-1n5/ http://eruci.com/2013/04/23/k2c-1n5/
- marcosdumay 13y agoThe brazilian postal service claimed ownership of our postal codes a few years ago... Except that by our laws, nobody can claim ownership of data (you can't copyright, patent or trademark it). But the State has no reason to care about such mundane things, like laws. By the way, here it's about $2,000/year, and if you sign the contract, you agree that the postal service owns the data. Or you can look at the internet for somebody that published it for free, and use it legally without a contract.
- Finster 13y agoSo the government can C&D anyone who uses their proprietary business information (like UPS or Fedex) without paying royalties? Sounds great! Another victory for the proletariat! :C
- reductive 13y agoAuthor thinks he needs the ZIP code database that is "updated daily," but he provides no reason for this and he's not willing to pay for it. Looks like he's the one being unreasonable here; ZIP codes are a solved problem.
- toomuchtodo 13y agoWhy should he pay for something that is a product of the federal government? It's already paid for, by the salaries of those who maintain the data, which would be maintained anyway since its required for USPS operations.
- adestefan 13y agoThe USPS is not a government agency nor are its employees paid by the government.
- brianpgordon 13y agoPresumably those salaries were paid with the expectation that some of that money would be recuperated through private sales. I guess it sort of makes sense that only businesses who use the information have to pay, instead of making every taxpayer bear the burden.
- toomuchtodo 13y agoTaxpayers don't bear the burden. Postage purchasers do. If you paid for postage, the zipcode database was necessary for delivery of your item. Selling the data to other companies is just another way they're trying to monetize the data.
- harshpotatoes 13y agoEven more unreasonable: His original reason for wanting the list of zipcodes was to correlate the zip codes of some health inspections in some county in Oregon to a specific location. Undoubtedly, these health inspections are older than one day, and therefore using two year old data from the census would probably provide the same accuracy as the zipcodes updated daily.
- sergiotapia 13y agoSomeone should just create an open source project, host that on Github and call it a day. This is disgusting.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- llamataboot 13y agohttp://www.datasciencetoolkit.org/ http://www.datasciencetoolkit.org/
- dogweather 13y agoThat's what I'd like to do. I wrote this in my FOIA request: that my intent is to take the data and make it as widely available as possible.
- cordite 13y agoI wasn't really aware that zip codes change much.. As far as I am aware, if I put in slightly the wrong zip code (neighboring one) but the right address, I'll still will get the package.
- mjhoy 13y agoI think that if you send a letter to say, Washington St., Boston MA, (of which there are several) you'd better have the correct zip code.
- cordite 13y agoYeah, I am used to small communities or a grid systems in dense population, like 305 E 900 N #42 Your point is completely valid in these other contexts though.
- jrochkind1 13y agoThe USPS is often pretty good at getting mis-addressed mail to people anyway, in general.
- cynwoody 13y agoThere's an old joke about a letter addressed to Wood John Massachusetts To whom was it delivered? Turn your monitor over: 6666-0Ɩ8Ɩ0 ∀W 'ɹǝʌopu∀ ʎɹǝʌᴉlǝp lɐɹǝuǝפ pooʍɹǝpu∩ uɥoſ
- tomrod 13y agoUtahn?
- nly 13y agoSimilar issues plagued the UK postal code databases. So much so that Wikileaks eventually leaked the database http://wikileaks.org/wiki/UK_government_database_of_all_1,841,177_post_codes_together_with_precise_geographic_coordinates_and_other_information,_8_Jul_2009 http://wikileaks.org/wiki/UK_government_database_of_all_1,84... I'm not sure if things have improved since, but it's probably not going to get better now that Royal Mail is 48% private.
- csmuk 13y agoThere is a pretty good effort to reverse engineer it all: http://www.freethepostcode.org/ http://www.freethepostcode.org/ Edit: actual dataset here: http://www.freepostcodes.org.uk/ http://www.freepostcodes.org.uk/ - link above wrong.
- msantos 13y agoIt plagued and still plagues. The Royal Mail is ruthless when it comes to IP of UK's post codes (read US zip code). Every "little guy" who dare tryed come up with ways around it were and still are crushed with C&D or plain old take downs followed be a gagging order. Myself included.
- nly 13y agoAny more insight in to your case?
- moepstar 13y agoHere's another list of Zipcodes: http://www.zippopotam.us http://www.zippopotam.us
- polemic 13y agoSimilar in New Zealand, although NZ Post is a "state owned enterprise" rather than a government agency.
- pbhjpbhj 13y agoWasn't loading for me: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.weblaws.org%2Fblog%2F2013%2F11%2Fusps-zip-codes-are-commercially-sensitive-trade-secrets%2F https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.we...
- Coincoin 13y agoThis is weird, I just read a random article [1] about a guy getting sued for publishing some banking public routing numbers. The article writer then jokingly said: "This argument is like the Post Office suing you for posting a list of zip codes." [1] http://www.popehat.com/2013/11/05/fine-those-routing-numbers-sucked-anyway-see-if-we-care/ http://www.popehat.com/2013/11/05/fine-those-routing-numbers...
- cgtyoder 13y agoAwesome story. Thanks for the link.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- saalweachter 13y agoI'd personally be a little happier if people besides the post office stopped using ZIP codes. Basically, ZIP codes are not maps. ZIP codes are (collections of) delivery routes. You can then reverse engineer a map more-or-less from the collections of addresses in a ZIP code, but it's messy and not necessarily meaningful. If post offices were as plentiful as they are in (say) Manhattan, ZIP codes are a good proxy for location. If you live outside a major city, not so much. My parents live about 15 miles from the post office from which their ZIP code derives; my house used to be about a half mile from its post office, but that one was shut down (for mail delivery -- still exists for PO boxes), so now I'm attached to a ZIP code for the post office two towns over. This matters, because if you do any sort of map-business off of ZIP codes, instead of political boundaries, the results are crap. So death to ZIP codes.
- _delirium 13y agoI agree, but I think they remain in use just because most people happen to know their own zip code (from using it in mailing addresses). There is an alternate system that's completely public-domain, maintained by a proper government agency, and actually intended for spatial division of U.S. territory in a way that's useful for grouping populations: the U.S. Census Bureau's census tracts. However these are somewhat newer (they didn't cover the whole U.S. until the 2000 census), people don't have their own census tract # memorized off the top of their head, and there seems to be less infrastructure & software built to use them outside of GIS people using actual census data.
- MichaelGG 13y agoI ran into this problem a lot when dealing with US-wide 911 service (for VoIP). Companies would just assume that if they have a mailing address for you, you're set, or worst case, go off the ZIP code to determine where to direct calls. Dealing with upstate NY was such a pain due to this. Unfortunately, I can't see moving away from ZIP codes. The 4-digit extension is too hard for anyone to memorize. If they had just added a 1 or 2 letter extension, you might be able to get people to sometimes know it, and then they could fill a dual-role as a geolocator as well.
- thejteam 13y ago
- biturd 13y agoAccording to the USPS website, API usage is free here: https://www.usps.com/business/web-tools-apis/list-of-apis.htm https://www.usps.com/business/web-tools-apis/list-of-apis.ht... One of the API's relates to zip codes.
- biturd 13y agoLooks like USPS API data is free and usable only for package shipping. Not that I bet they would notice. At any rate, this seems to be a great start with a great API recommendation: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7129313/zip-code-lookup-api http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7129313/zip-code-lookup-a...
- biturd 13y agoSorry to keep replying, I don't have an edit button for some reason. This one is cool too: http://api.zippopotam.us/us/ma/belmont http://api.zippopotam.us/us/ma/belmont I found a town called Bakersfield that has more than one zip fro the town, it does JSON back with more data than I thought would be part of free plan. For some reason I could not get "san_francisco","san-francisco", "sanfrancisco", or "sf" to work.
- abromberg 13y agohttp://api.zippopotam.us/us/ca/san%20francisco http://api.zippopotam.us/us/ca/san%20francisco
- jfortunato25 13y agoif you take a closer look you'll notice that the usps api takes a USERID as an xml parameter so it is not free.
- dogweather 13y agoAuthor of the blog post here. Access to the API isn't automatic. You have to apply, which I did, and then was turned down. They only grant access if you're using the info to ship packages via the USPS. I was completely honest that I wanted the data to build open-government apps of different kinds, and they declined me.
- AsymetricCom 13y agoWell, clearly I don't belong here because I don't own my address.
- mindo 13y agoThis reminded me a case in Malaysia, were local devs were trying to get fastest public transport traveling problem solved on mobile app, but they couldn't get bus schedules even on the end points of the routes as it is "confidential information". Literally no one except probably bus drivers or daily travelers would know when the bus leaves/arrives, personally I failed to find a single timetable myself, so usually you just stand there for 30-60 minutes waiting for the next bus to arrive. Coming from Lithuania it was big challenge to understand such as mindset and business logic as here you can snap QR code in bus stop and see real time traffic information that actually encourages you to hop on the public transport. Eventually USPS will have to share all that information or someone will come up with alternative to ZIP code numbering that is constant and public...
- danenania 13y agohttp://www.geonames.org/ http://www.geonames.org/ has free geo data that includes zip codes.
- biturd 13y agoI understand that the post is more about the USPS holding onto something seemingly trivial. Kinda like when we tell google to block out certain places of security. But we already have so many ways to get around it, like going there and taking a picture, or renting a plane, who knows. Or the Streisand Effect kicks in and everything is a mess. At any rate, I have had to do a lot with zip codes in the past, long before anything like an API was a common term let alone something every company was happy to let you hook into and use their services. Heck, this was back when it costs a few grand to take CC's on a website and had to deal with that awful Authorienet API. That used to be thought of as crazy talk. Now we have amazing stuff like this: http://www.geonames.org http://www.geonames.org
- jimbobimbo 13y agoI wonder where $3k/yr number came from. This is a price for "Z4Change Product" product which "Provides mailers the information necessary to create an application that would facilitate frequent and cost-effective processing for updating very large computerized mailing lists for automation compatibility and improved deliverability." Is this so necessary for mapping health inspections data? USPS has more fitting products priced less.
- dogweather 13y agoIt's the only data they'd offer me which contains the complete list of zip codes mapped to cities.
- jimbobimbo 13y agoI urge you to go to this page [1] and have a look at what other products are and what information they provide. [1] https://www.usps.com/business/address-information-systems.htm https://www.usps.com/business/address-information-systems.ht...
- mkhalil 13y agoThey haven't enforced protecting their "proprietary business information" in the past, so I doubt this can hold up in court. It other news, I think the USPS should double their rates for stamps. Less spam in my mailbox, and a push for a greener planet.
- fleitz 13y agoAnd if you read the full article, there's a solution to the problem from the census bureau.... Of course the author can't use that because it's not updated daily, like FOIA'ing the ZIP codes would get you daily updates anyway...
- hashtree 13y agoDatasets: - United States Census Bureau TIGER - GeoNames data dumps - You can pay to be sent data files from the USPS (AIS) Welcome to the wonderful world of public, semi-public, and private datasets. It is an interesting niche, and the ability to find them can give you a competitive advantage (e.g. machine learning datasets).
- xradionut 13y agoI understand the OP's pain. But there's an easy solution that many of us that deal with mailings and US addresses use. Go buy a Address Verification/CASS Processing CD from Melissa Data or a similar company. Or pay a small fee for a limited list in your area.
- tn13 13y agoI don't think USPS has to share that info with anyone. I faced the same problem in past with Indian Zip Codes. Talk about England and you have much bigger problem. The ownership of Pincodes in England is with the Queen and hence no one can really use it without her permission. :P
- hackula1 13y agoZip codes make my life hell on a daily basis. The problem is essentially that the USPS does not design topological zipcode polygons. All they do is maintain a set of centroids, plus an assignment to a set of lines representing street segments (which they charge for). This would be fine, if it was not for the fact that pretty much everyone who wants to use zip codes needs them in a topologically valid polygon format. This is a problem because roads change all the time, and this makes zip codes terribly unstable. Also, there are many zip codes that are really just points (a bit of an oversimplification, but military bases, prisons, schools, etc. often cause huge problems). Census tracts are much more stable (topologically valid and only change every 10 years). Unfortunately, most people don't know which census tract they live in, so zips prevail. I have built several geocoding algorithms, and it always comes down to the data being the big PITA. What ends up happening, unfortunately, is that private companies pick up the slack and create topological zip codes (with high price tags). Double unfortunately, every company has a different methodology in creating these polygons, costing everyone who uses them big money, on top of the licensing fees. The USPS could easily produce a standard set of polygons for an extra couple grand a year in labor and save the industry millions. I cannot get into much detail, but I know this issue quite intimately.
- 001sky 13y agorandom question, but shouldn't we task the us federal map-making agencies with this? like the USGS or some such? I agree with you position that having multiple private sector entities do it seems inefficient. presumably, the usps could also license/use the whatever was built by the usgs. and congress could make sure there is no bs with the ip of the zip database.
- Intermernet 13y agoThis reminds me of when developers were trying to create public transport related apps for Australia (about 4 years ago) and were told that using the timetable information would be copyright infringement [1]. I'm pretty sure it was worked out in the end as apps are now available with that info, but it seemed absolutely ridiculous at the time that public information, for a public service wasn't in the public domain. [1]: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/03/05/1235842537210.html http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/03/05/1235842537210.html
- hncommenter13 13y agoThis is what the USPS says, but it might not be the final answer. If the requester is in the 9th Circuit (one of AK, AZ, CA, GU, HI, ID, MP, MT, NV, OR, WA) and especially if the requester is in the Northern District of California (SF Bay Area), there are court cases that may be relevant. Doug Carlson[1] requested basic data about post offices and post office boxes (location, hours, etc.), and the USPS claimed the information was commercial and therefore exempt from FOIA. In at least the case of the post offices, it went to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, which ruled in his favor [2], meaning that the law in the Ninth Circuit may not be on the USPS's side. (In the case of disclosing the locations of mailboxes, the USPS claimed a FOIA exemption based on the potential for using knowledge of mailbox locations to distribute chemical and biological agents, but it lost to Carlson in the Northern District of California [3]). I would encourage the requester to take the next step in a denied FOIA request and file a timely appeal with the USPS general counsel [4]. I'm not a lawyer, but you could probably find one who could write a convincing letter based on the current caselaw in the 9th circuit. Or try Doug Carlson himself, as his contact details are part of the public record [5]. [1] http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/PROFILE-Doug-Carlson-Stamping-out-mail-2882873.php http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/PROFILE-Doug-Carlson-S... [2] http://www.leagle.com/decision/20071627504F3d1123_11592 http://www.leagle.com/decision/20071627504F3d1123_11592 [3] Carlson v. USPS, No. C-02-05471, 2005 WL 756573, at *6-7 (N.D. Cal. Mar. 31, 2005) (concluding that disclosure of data pertaining to mailbox locations would not risk use of postal system to distribute biological or chemical agents because agency failed to demonstrate that such data actually could be used to determine mail collection routes). Found on p.206-207 of http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia_guide09/exemption2.pdf http://www.justice.gov/oip/foia_guide09/exemption2.pdf. [4] http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/foia/faq.htm#H10 http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/foia/faq.htm#H10 [5] http://prc.gov/prc-pages/library/dockets.aspx?activeview=SummaryViewSrvcList&docketid=N2010-1&docketpart=ServiceList&servicelistpart=ListOfPartyReps&attrID=0&attrName= http://prc.gov/prc-pages/library/dockets.aspx?activeview=Sum...
- sehugg 13y agoWell, we'll always have latitude and longitude.