19 ms·

Gabe Newell: Linux is the future of gaming, new hardware coming soon

404 points by onosendai 13y ago

kmfrk 13y ago
"Kick the ball, Charlie! The future of gaming on Linux is bright!"
- wmf 13y ago
  What incentive does Valve have to pull some kind of bait-and-switch? They may be wrong about the future, but I don't think they're being intentionally deceptive.
Zikes 13y ago
Title is misleading, Gabe isn't promising any new hardware. Valve is poised to release "more information about how we get there and what are the hardware opportunities we see".
- criley2 13y ago
  It's like when we all waited months to hear Elon Musk explain how, in very vague statements, the hyperloop could maybe work, if everyone (the government) pitched in a hand.
  - Zikes 13y ago
    I think it's fair to say it'll be a fairly long road. Dealing with hardware vendors, especially with GPU manufacturers, will be the biggest hurdle, and getting them all to fall in line will take a lot of work. Even if he announces the "Steambox" tomorrow, without a truly open Linux solution with very broad drivers support it won't mean much to games developers. It'd just be one more platform they'd have to explicitly support, i.e. they'd have to make a Windows version, Mac version, PS version, Xbox version, and finally a Steambox version
Mikeb85 13y ago
This is great news. More developer support, and more hardware support to be able to create a Steam box just as easily as a home theatre box (w/ something like XBMC) would be fantastic. Heck, I think even desktop gamers would simply be happy to be able to use Linux full-time, with the control and performance that comes with it.
JonnieCache 13y ago
The presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg#t=13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg#t=13
- 300bps 13y ago
  Thanks for posting that. Before watching that, I was under the impression that Gabe was against Windows 8 because he fears competition from new digital distribution systems that can compete with Steam. After watching that, it has solidified my belief that his only complaint about Windows 8 is that competition is coming. What am I missing?
  - r0s 13y ago
    That the altruism of his business decision isn't important? I think you're touching on the popular sentiment that Linux gaming would be a good thing for consumers. Therefor the news is interesting, as a disruption to current players if nothing else.
  - benjamincburns 13y ago
    I know one issue they're worried about is display latency. DRM complicates this issue and potentially adds yet another layer of indirection to worry about. Though to be fair, I wonder how big of a driver this is for them. See Michael Abrash's discussion on VR latency: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/latency-the-sine-qua-non-of-ar-and-vr/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/latency-the-sine-qua-n... And also this tweet: I can send an IP packet to Europe faster than I can send a pixel to the screen. How f’d up is that? - John Carmack, Id Software
MLR 13y ago
I think he's completely off base to be honest, I think in the coming years Surface like devices will replace the traditional desktop, and unless Linux moves quickly, there's no way that space will be anything but Windows dominated. With Windows 8.1 out soon, which improves Windows 8 massively, I see it continuing to dominate into the future where desktops become increasingly marginalised.
- boost_ 13y ago
  how would surface like devices ever replace the traditional desktop? they allow no upgrades and pc gaming without a physical keyboard/mouse is just impossible.
  - blah32497 13y ago
    You're missing the point. Most people don't have a dedicated computer to play pc games. They have one machines that they use to browse, email and play. The argument is that in the near future virtually all of those systems will have touch as part of the UI (not necessarily to replace the keyboard and mouse entirely, but as an added feature). Because Windows 8 is a significant step forward in touch based UI, when you buy you're next laptop/desktop you will be installing Windows 8 on it. You definitely won't be installing linux.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      The kind of gamers that Valve courts are the sort of people who still build their own PCs, and who still interact with their computer through game controllers and keyboard/mouse. You aren't going to replace TF2 or Skyrim input with touch-based input. Notta gonna happen. Just look at the games that Microsoft is currently peddling with their App Store. This stuff is not a competitor to Steam. It isn't even in the same market.
    - EpicEng 13y ago
      Yeah... you're focusing on the world of Candy Crush and <insert crappy in game purchase model game here> type games. Sure, huge market, also completely and utterly separated from the world of real gamers by a massive void of nothingness. There is of course overlap, but I'm not playing mobile games on my PC and I'm certainly not playing Arkham Origins or FFIV on some tiny tablet.
joeld42 13y ago
'"When we talk to developers and say, 'if you can pick one thing for Valve to work on the tools side to make Linux a better development target,' they always say we should build a debugger," he said.' Yes, please. That would be awesome.
- rwmj 13y ago
  Yeah, gdb really really sucks. I was yet again reminded of this today when trying to debug some multithreaded qemu code.
  - palebluedot 13y ago
    I use gdb to debug qemu as well - have you tried using qtcreator as a gdb frontend? It is actually fairly decent. There is always room for improvement, of course, and it is far from perfect - so a new debugger would always be welcome. But it is about the best front end for gdb I've used, although I used to be pretty partial to Insight as well for embedded work.
  - qznc 13y ago
    Is there really a problem with gdb apart from IDE integration? I am using gdb sometimes and it is just fine. Especially with the Python scripting support now. I used the Eclipse CDT gdb wrapper once and that, I agree, really sucks.
    - benjamincburns 13y ago
      > Especially with the Python scripting support now. Yes. A thousand times yes. > I used the Eclipse CDT gdb wrapper once and that, I agree, really sucks. Just curious, how long ago was that? My opinion of Eclipse kind of ebbs and flows. I've used the GDB support a bunch for remote debugging of embedded systems (including, surprisingly, the Linux kernel). In fairness, my gripe was always more with the IDE than its debugger support. CDT has always felt like the red-headed stepchild in comparison to Java support. The extra intelligence is nice, but it makes it so that you have to jump through lots of hoops to get it to be even remotely usable with a large codebase (again, the Linux kernel). Even on smaller codebases it can consume a buttload of memory and still be quite slow. But the debugger interface always seemed to "just work" for me.
desireco42 13y ago
I wish Gabe Newell promoted Linux with same passion before MS launched App Store and his business was threatened. I find it hard to believe anything he says. On other hand, I wish all best to Linux :)
- meritt 13y ago
  The sort of games present in App stores (itunes, google play, microsoft, facebook) cater to an entirely different audience than Steam.
  - teamonkey 13y ago
    For now. Microsoft recently retired Game For Windows Live. I'm sure they have some kind of replacement planned that fits in with their current ecosystem.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  It is possible to simultaneously be against something both because it threatens your business and because you find it personally distasteful. Knowing what I've seen of Gabe the past few years, I'm inclined to believe it's a bit more of the latter than the former.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  That criticism seemed sensible several months ago, but where we are at right now, does it really seem like MS's App Store is doing any significant threatening? Just looking at http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/apps http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/apps it seems clear to me that this is not a threat. These are "iphone games", not "PC games". From what I have seen, the only competitor to Steam that is even a blip on the radar of gamers is Origin. If anything, Valve is pushing into territory that they think Origin cannot enter, not MS.
  - mikevm 13y ago
    Do you really care about Valve's reasons? Let's just shut up and let them use their industry muscle to encourage Linux gaming, and in the end we will all win.
zerr 13y ago
Funny, how he packs one of the most real underlying reason - Linux is free as in beer.
- walid 13y ago
  Why is this funny? If I had the choice of either parting with 30%-20% of what I make or supporting another platform that gives me back that 30%-20% I'd support that other platform. After all Valve is a business and it doesn't make sense to accept someone dictating that they have a toll gate for your sales. Remember that Microsoft charges 30%-20% not for the user's sake but to make money for themselves.
  - zerr 13y ago
    No, no. The decision is right, and I'd do the same. The "packing" itself, i.e. how he speaks about this, is funny. He doesn't articulate on this obvious reason.
TruthSHIFT 13y ago
I really like the idea of gaming on Linux, but I feel like there are still has a lot of unanswered questions. How do you stop developers from using Direct X? How do you convince graphics card companies to optimize their drivers for linux?
- jaredmcateer 13y ago
  Steambox pretty much answers both of those questions. They are bringing a platform into the console space where DirectX isn't as much of a gorilla in the rool, then when people develop games for the console they get the linux pc port for free, enough user base and demand will convince the graphics card companies.
- teamonkey 13y ago
  > How do you stop developers from using Direct X? You make something better.
- adwf 13y ago
  Two answers that I can think of at first glance: 1) A large proportion of the games that I own for Linux are developed using the Unity engine. This has many advantages for an indie developer (ease of use, cheap license), but is especially useful because it can cross-compile to Windows/Mac/Linux/Android/iOS/Xbox/PS. Even Blackberry! This is a godsend for indie developers trying to reach as large a market as possible. So the challenge isn't necessarily to get developers to stop using DirectX, but to get the major engine developers (eg. Unreal) to ensure good cross-compilation support. They already have to a certain extent, because the PS3 is already using a form of OpenGL. All we really need is a little extra effort from them to make sure it's compatible with Linux. This would immediately add a large proportion of the current game releases to the Linux market. 2) Driver optimisation isn't as important as you might think. The average PC graphics card vastly overtook consoles in graphical power a very long time ago. Certainly within a year or two of the current generation of consoles. Even without optimised drivers, they are still far more powerful than the Xbox360 or PS3. All in all, the obstacles are very surmountable. The biggest problem that I can see lies in convincing the big game engines, like Unreal, to bother with such a small market. But if Valve leads the way with the Source engine, they could start eating away at the likes of Unreal - simply by being the only AAA choice on Linux.
adwf 13y ago
I agree. I think this point really hit home for me when Rome Total War 2 came out. This has been one of my favourite game franchises ever since the original Shogun TW. But. I haven't bought it yet because it doesn't run on Linux. I don't want to reboot my dual-boot system anymore. Now, I just want to take a sec to point out that I'm not saying this from a snobbish boycotting point of view. But from a purely practical one. I've been toying with the Steam Linux beta since release and whilst I've had a lot of indie games in my catalogue (thanks Humble Bundle!), I've had hardly any AAA games except some old Valve titles - which I'd finished playing years ago. But recently there have been a couple of great Linux versions of strategy games that have come out (Crusader Kings 2, Europa Universalis 4), and when I weigh up the decision between rebooting to Windows to play something, or just stay in Linux and play one of those. I always stay. And that's in spite of a potentially great game like Rome TW2. Then when you add in some great looking upcoming games on Kickstarter, like Wasteland, Project Eternity, Torment Numenera, etc... Also, a huge victory (for a UK fan) of Football Manager 2014 upcoming for Linux. The future is looking very bright. All of this adds up to one thing, I don't have a need to reboot anymore. I used to get forced into using Windows just for gaming, now I actually have a choice. NB. On a side note, the catalogue for Linux isn't looking too bad either. I just checked my account and I have 310 games, of which 76 will run in Linux. Not too shabby anymore.
- mercurial 13y ago
  The influence of Kickstarter (largely due to Linux support for the popular game engine Unity) and Humble Bundle on the availability of games on Linux cannot be overstated. But even outside of Linux, it is wonderful to see how the indie gaming scene is blooming at the moment. There was an editorial (which I can't seem to find now) on Rock Paper Shotgun, about how we're having the golden age of gaming right now, and it's very true - though we'll have to wait for many of these kickstarters (Torment and Wasteland, to name to two most well-known ones) to come to fruition. It's also neat to see that they don't necessarily go the nostalgia route. The last one I've backed, Sunless Sea [1], is going to be a mix of different concepts (roguelike, exploration, survival, trade) along with a mechanism for madness, and is not a follow-up to anything in particular. I'll toast the future of gaming, happening right now. 1: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/failbetter/sunless-sea/ http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/failbetter/sunless-sea/
stormbrew 13y ago
One thing game devs, from my experience playing games on linux steam, need to work on with linux is how to deal with multimonitor setups. Every game I have in steam that runs on linux attempts to spread itself out across all my displays, which is especially busted when I have a vertical monitor. Entire sections of the screen are just cut off completely as the height of my virtual display is higher than 2 of my 3 monitors. Now, I use intel's video support and not nvidia, so I'm using randr to set up my monitors and not nvidia's proprietary stuff. I wonder if that's the issue.
- jdjb 13y ago
  I use the nvidia drivers and have the same problem.
- kevingadd 13y ago
  Multimonitor support in games is terrible on Windows too. Game devs just almost universally get it wrong. (I don't understand why; literally every dev I know uses multiple monitors...)
  - stormbrew 13y ago
    Well, my experience on windows was always that the 'getting it wrong' was just choosing to play the game exclusively on the primary display. This at least leaves the game playable, and it never bothered me, I could never get used to paying attention to two screens joined into one for gaming. The result on linux is to literally make the game unplayable unless you manually disable extra displays.
vor_ 13y ago
I'm skeptical because Linux has been called the future of gaming for at least 15 years. During its heyday in the 1990s, id Software released a Linux port of every Quake game, and that still wasn't enough to cause a major shift in adoption, and that was at a time when PC users on average were more technically inclined. I also can't help but note that Gabe only began this public crusade when Microsoft released an app store that competed with Valve's app store. So I'm interested to see what happens, but I'm skeptical.
- arthulia 13y ago
  Linux in the 1990s was still quite strictly a platform for power users and tinkerers. Nowadays the Linux distros that people are adopting strive to be user friendly enough for your parents and grandparents.
  - cheesylard 13y ago
    Yeah, I installed Ubuntu on my computer illiterate dad's computer and he prefers it to Windows 7. He says its faster and easier. He doesn't even know how to copy and paste. Couldn't really say that 10 years ago.
- forgottenpass 13y ago
  I also can't help but note that Gabe only began this public crusade when Microsoft released an app store that competed with Valve's app store. Well, of course. It's not hard to see the writing on the wall. Valve is looking for a platform where they can't be muscled out before they're muscled out of the one they're on. You can only compete with a vertical integrator for a long as they allow you compete. Doubly so with software platforms. If you look at the trajectory of Microsoft's platform control, there is zero reason Valve shouldn't be shitting their pants right now.
  - vdaniuk 13y ago
    Well, Valve owns social gaming graph for every user. Until Microsoft creates seamless integration between Windows and Xbox and imports xbox graph, Valve has pretty powerful network effect on its side.
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phaus 13y ago
I hope they finish CS:GO soon, that's the only reason I still dual-boot Windows.
- darkstalker 13y ago
  I still dual boot Windows to play League of Legends.
vasquez 13y ago
Valve and Ubuntu might have popularized Linux gaming, but they also screwed us over. Every desktop CPU sold in the last decade, at least the ones capable of running games, supports x86-64. The only reason 32 bit installs exist in the wild is because Ubuntu (still) makes it their default download. Enter Steam for Linux. Targeting 32-bit Ubuntu, it makes this the de facto platform for Linux games. My desktop OS is now cluttered with multiarch libraries, and the top-end games I want to play won't take advantage of either the better instruction set or all my ram. Linux gaming could have been a fresh new start, a break from the 32-bit instruction set, but instead we're now stuck installing, maintaining and supporting 32-bit libs forever..
rlu 13y ago
FYI (only tangentially related to the presentation), here are the latest hardware survey results for Steam users. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey You'll notice Windows 7 is still #1 (not surprising) but Windows 8 and 8.1 are the fastest growing, with almost 15% of Steam users running Win8 64bit.
- BashiBazouk 13y ago
  An interesting stat to see would be different OS's or hardware models per person or IP address. Here there are a few graphs that I would be in multiple categories...
archagon 13y ago
Question is, if Windows becomes a closed ecosystem or flops altogether, would PC gamers elect to move to Linux? Even if they do, there's going to be a significant loss of numbers along the way, and it's already a smaller market than consoles. I can see a future where most game companies (barring maybe Valve, Blizzard, and a few others) cut their losses and decide to focus solely on consoles and iOS/Android. That would be a sad future indeed.
- Fuzzwah 13y ago
  I'd suggest that the users will move to what ever platform best allows them to play games from their steam libraries. Gabe's end game has to be that the users aren't even aware they've moved to Linux; they just plug in their steambox and play their games.
rlu 13y ago
I sort of got bored of the presentation 15 minutes in (and was only half paying attention, truth be told) but it seems to me that Gabe is operating under the (gigantic) assumption that Microsoft would remove the Desktop and move Windows into a 100% closed environment. Sounds like he's jumping the gun. I don't see that future happening.
- Pxtl 13y ago
  He's being hyperbolic. The real problem is that he's feeling like Netscape circa 1997 - facing the problem that his main asset is competing against something built into the OS. Microsoft isn't going to kick 3rd-party game stores off of Windows, but they are building a 1st-party one... one they intend on growing. Gabe is worried about his cash cow becoming a second-class citizen on the platform.
- devx 13y ago
  They've already done that with Windows RT and WP8. No, I'm not talking about not being able to run legacy apps on it. I mean not being able to install apps from other sources other than the Windows Store. Do you really think Microsoft wouldn't prefer that in the future they make it so most people choose the Windows store over anything else, by pushing it even more into their faces, like they did with Metro? Many people asked for the Start Menu to be back in the desktop mode, and they didn't bring it back? Why would they do that, when it doesn't interfere at all with Metro mode to just have that in the desktop mode? Why else would they do that, if they didn't want to force Metro even more on you by turning it into a shortcut to Metro mode instead?
  - rlu 13y ago
    One thing is wanting to get users to use Metro more. It's another thing entirely to force them to use it exclusively by removing any other option. Desktop apps can do many more things than WinRT apps are allowed to do. There are thousands of business critical applications running on desktop that are likely rarely maintained. These two reasons alone should convince you that Microsoft would be stupid to remove the desktop. The blend of Metro and desktop is not meant to kill the desktop. It's simply a bet on hybrid devices (like Surface, Yoga, etc.) becoming the norm in years to come.
SCdF 13y ago
While it's super cool that maybe I'll be able to run linux at home and still play games some time in the future, it's kind of sad that the only reason he cares is because he's worried about a MS app store potentially being a competitor to steam, and yet people are fervently praising him for it. He doesn't really care about linux, he doesn't really think Windows is a bad platform for gaming, he just wants to try to crush a competitor. If he did care he would have done something years ago. Id has managed to release the vast majority of their games on linux, and it didn't take a potential fiscal threat to make them do it.
- ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
  Never look a gift horse in the mouth. Be it altruistic or capitalist, Linux stands to benefit from the exposure and backing.
  - zanny 13y ago
    But you can't assume it is a gift. What does it matter if desktop Linux takes off on the backs of proprietary nonfree software? Not just proprietary apps on top of a free stack, but a proprietary distribution platform where most programs bought for it only run through it, where the controller can at whim close your account, and they vet and determine who they bless to use their platform earpiece? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? The vast majorty of current Linux titles are not on Linux because of Steam. Few titles (Crusader Kings comes to mind) actually ported their engine to run on opengl / posix / alsa or sdl just because Steam appeared there. Most of the last 2 years of Linux gaming boom has been due to Unity and the Humble Bundle. Unity was porting to Linux before Steam on Linux was announced, same with the Humble Bundle. Having a platform is fine and everything, but here are two observations from seperate perspectives: 1. Why develop for a platform where you can only expect a few thousand sales, even on the de facto distribution platform that takes a cut of proceeds? 2. If there are no games on a platform, wouldn't you just want to release directly and let your potential customers come to you? If they are desperate, wouldn't cutting out the middle man be more profitable, since Steam isn't making Linux development easier, just marketing and sales processing? I think Steam is so important on the desktop PC because there are so many games on it. People don't go download Origin or seek out a developers site to buy a game, they just buy it on Steam. If you are on something like gnu/linux, you have no competition game-wise, you just have to make sure people know you exist. In almost any genre, you have minimum modern competition on the platform. So why give Valve whatever % they take?
BashiBazouk 13y ago
As someone who games on a PS3, steam via OSX and ios I'm not convinced there will ever be or needs to be a "winner". Some games are better close to the screen with a mouse. Some are better more relaxed on the couch and some are better on a tablet. I could picture getting a small gaming box running Linux if most of my steam library transferred over and anything new was offered in Linux. Professionally, I'm in print production and design, so Linux is unlikely to ever be my sole OS. I'm finding with the new batch of consoles and micro consoles there has been surprisingly little talk of cheating prevention. I was once almost completely a PC gamer but cheating in just about every multiplayer game I played pushed me to consoles. Even today most of the games I play on console that have PC versions are hacked quickly. There is cheating on consoles but at a much, much lower rate. If Linux via Steam can do something significant about cheating that would be a huge plus. As far as digital download services, Steam has value to me working on different OS's. All the games in my steam library work on windows. This has proved a godsend when visiting the in laws on the other side of the country for a week at a time. Ios has proven quite good at having apps last through many generations of hardware. Many apps I bought on the original iphone work on all modern ios devices. I have given up on buying digital versions on PS3 as they seem like a dead end. At least with the disk there is a good chance sometime down the line an emulator will come out for what ever computer I will be running in the future...
beloch 13y ago
Newell has the ulterior motive of killing Microsoft's app store, which he clearly sees as a direct threat to Steam. If it takes off, indeed it will be! I remain unconvinced that Linux has passed the tipping point and is on it's way to becoming the home entertainment OS of the future though. I use it on my work laptop and love it, but Win8 runs my HTPC. 1. A home entertainment box does more than play games these days. Windows is still the only OS with acceptable bluray support. OSX is as out in the cold as Linux on this score even though Apple is a member of the bluray consortium! Some may be tempted to scoff at physical media, but it's still alive and well, especially with the audio/video-phile crowd. 2. If games have to be rewritten to operate on Linux, most existing games never will. Most games, once their sales have ceased bringing in cash, are abandoned and never updated again. Legacy gaming support is important. A lot of people have beloved games that are years or decades old that they still occasionally play. If switching to Linux means they have to abandon those, they won't. If Newell is serious about his Steam boxes succeeding, he needs to support work that will let older games run on Linux without modification and he needs to support development of a bluray support package for Linux, plus any future formats. No open source software will ever legally support bluray. I like open source and I'm sure some fanatics will be tempted to blast me for calling for more closed-source software on Linux, but that's precisely what Newell is doing. He's bringing closed source, non-free software to Linux. If you want to see Steam on Linux succeed, you're demanding something free, open-source software has yet to deliver.
- dekz 13y ago
  I'd hate to tell you that you're in a bit of a minority buying bluray and using bluray medium. The future isn't physical disks that you lose. Linux runs my media pc and my media server. Valve have already accomplished full platform support for most of their games, Humble indie bundles require full platform support for their games. Linux versions of most games, isn't some far away dream, it's here. I'm not sure I fully comprehend your linux 'open-source' only argument. Have you seen ubuntu?
  - cgh 13y ago
    Like the OP says, for people serious about audio and video quality, they will buy Blu-ray (or whatever physical media replaces it) for a long time to come. The bandwidth simply isn't there otherwise. That said, I agree with you that the future is not with physical media - that's very obviously the case. But the future isn't here yet. > Linux versions of most games, isn't some far away dream, it's here. That's absurd. There are no AAA titles available on Linux. Newell's prediction might seem more realistic if Ubisoft, Rockstar, etc. jump on board. Maybe it will happen if a viable Linux-based console came around.
OWaz 13y ago
Is Gabe specifically suggesting creating native Linux games? It wasn't too long ago when John Carmack commented that "The conventional wisdom is that native Linux games are not a good market". So then does Steam carry enough weight to challenge conventional wisdom? 1: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_asks_why_wine_isnt_good_enough/c89sfto http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_a...
- deleted 13y ago
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jalada 13y ago
"20xx: The year of Linux gaming" is the new "20xx: The year of the Linux desktop"
nostromo 13y ago
I think people forget that Gabe started his career at Microsoft, and spent over a decade there. It may have been a million years ago by tech standards, but I think that subcontext makes his statements about Linux even more interesting.
- Paradigma11 13y ago
  Disgruntled Ex-Worker?
runn1ng 13y ago
It feels like cognitive dissonance when the maker of Steam, that is full of DRM and, of course, closed source, talks about the successes of open source. I mean, I have nothing against proprietary source (the difference between open source games quality and proprietary games quality is giant), but Valve made their living on proprietary code and now they are preaching the opposite.
- Fuzzwah 13y ago
  Valve made it big because they released portions of their code along with the tools to create mods and total conversions of their games. They then hired the most talented people who were using these tools, either pulling them in to work on half-life or to create commercial versions of their own projects. Then then made it bigger by making it easier for outside devs to publish on steam. Over the course of a decade they worked to turn steam from something that everyone hated into something that nearly everyone loves. The turn around has been incredible; from a hindrance no one wanted to a platform no one wants to do with out. I believe that Gabe is more interested in Linux because it is an "open platform" rather than it being "open source". Valve were quite happy working on Windows when it was an "open platform" that they could release games onto with out having to jump through hoops. As MS moves to force everything through their own app store, Valve are looking elsewhere.
Arjuna 13y ago
This piece from Gabe's talk [1] is interesting: "But the one entity we wouldn't ever want to compete with is our own users, right? They have already out-stripped us spectacularly. You can't compete with them once you give them the tools that allow them to participate in the creation of the experiences that they find are valuable. And it's not by a little bit; it's like an order of magnitude more productive already, and we're only a couple of years into thinking about how to do that. [...] The point is that the connected groups of users are going to be way more successful if they're properly enabled and supported than any of the individual game developers are going to be. But, there's this huge tension between, if that's the direction that gaming is going, or if that's the direction content creation is going, these other systems actually put a tremendous number of road-blocks in the way of doing that. It takes Valve several months to get through certification process for a single update. I mean, it took us 6 months to get one update through the Apple Store to ship an iPad update. We have a lot of resources and have a huge commercial motivation. No individual user, if they're the sort of center of gravity for content production, is going to have the wherewithal or the stubbornness to get through that. That's just one example of the many ways that the closed systems appear to us to be antithetical to our user-centric model of content production, going forward." -- Like you, I'm just trying to "read the tea leaves" here, but the future is user-generated content. Valve needs to leverage that by offering a hardware platform [2] that will allow them to be in complete and full control, both technologically and financially. A hardware platform that they can update as needed, that will give users more control to generate content; free from the concerns of pushing an update through Apple or Microsoft. In turn, their goal will be to leverage content creation by connecting users in a unified economy, again, that they control. They engaged Yanis Varoufakis [3], who is a renowned academic economist, no doubt to assist in that endeavor. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg&t=783 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg&t=783 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steambox#Steam_Box https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steambox#Steam_Box [3] http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a-strange-email http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a...
- m3mnoch 13y ago
  > the future is user-generated content as a veteran of the "user-generated" game content industry, i can honestly say 5 years ago, i had that same vision. 5 years of blood, sweat, money and tears later, i can (also honestly) say -- that's not the case. and won't be. for those of you who've never made (finished and shipped!) a game before, it's an incredibly frustrating experience. you have what would be called an mvp in ycombinator terms inside of a month. "i will crush the rest of this thing out 3 months and ship!" uh... no. i'm here to tell you that is not the case. the whole "first 90%" vs. the "second 90%" thing is magnified 10-fold in games. it's a really long post for me to explain the myriad of gotchas involved from safely syncing game state between sleep-and-non-sleep-packets-suddenly-flood-in-but-omg-my-clock to btw-you-need-3-times-the-states-in-your-state-machine-oops to why-am-i-getting-3-fps-on-a-faster-device to all-of-the-above-times-multiplayer-exponentially. i plan on writing that post someday, but not now. anyway. the prototype flies off your finger tips and then the next 2 and a half years (please see the common thread of 3 years to make a game, from the movie indie gamer [highly recommended!] to that recent atomic brawl post) working through obscure bugs and corner cases because games have more complex interactions than non-games and gamers don't have a clue how to follow the damn happy path when they play. so, yes. i said 1 month of fun, fast iterative prototype and 2 years of awful, in-the-weeds debugging where your strength of will to finish is tested daily. (insert rovio making 51 games before angry birds here) finishing a good game is goddamnhard. finishing a shitty game is a snap -- just ship your prototype! what we found was that anyone who has the strength and perseverance to actually build and (more importantly) finish a game was already working in the game industry -- mostly because they possess a proven will to finish. i guess what's i'm saying is lots of people can snap together sweet, use-with-care prototypes ugc-style. almost nobody -- and i really, really mean almost nobody, like 0.0001% of "i want to make a game" developers -- can actually finish and launch a game regardless of scope. mind you -- i don't view indie games as ugc. if you ship (SHIP, not start) an indie game, you have what it takes to work in the non-indie game world. you just choose not to. if you don't believe me, i challenge you to prove me wrong and just make a simple game this weekend and let your friends play it where you can watch, but not talk or help them at all. it will take approximately 12 seconds of them touching your game before you're completely "wtf -- how did that happen?!?!?" screwed. m3mnoch.
akurilin 13y ago
Knowing that Valve will from now on be heavily supporting game development and deployment onto Linux machines is very encouraging.
deepblueq 13y ago
I just ordered parts for a gaming machine the other day, and it'll be running Linux. A surprising number of games run on it directly now, and Wine works for the ones I care about that don't. There's now absolutely nothing I want to do that requires Windows - even two years ago that wasn't at all the case.
sytelus 13y ago
This statement feels like so last century. Isn't the future of the gaming is in the browser? Operating software wars feels meaningless and ridiculous these days.
- csense 13y ago
  > Isn't the future of the gaming is in the browser? I'm of the belief that the amount of revenue that can be squeezed out of games written by Zynga and the like represents a relatively small share of the overall gaming market. I think there will always be gamers who want full-screen games with large assets -- and there's no plugin or browser subsystem that adequately delivers that experience, and the content files for a modern 3D game are often a little too large to host remotely. Especially on phones. > Operating software wars feels meaningless and ridiculous these days Apple's App Store, Microsoft's secure-boot and app-store ecosystem lockdown attempts that numerous others have commented on in this thread, Android's capture of a significant portion of the mobile market, Linux's powers waxing by the year, the fall of Sun and the implosion of Solaris... The OS wars are getting interesting again! For many years there was more-or-less total stagnation in the market, with Windows ascendant, a few UNIX flavors and the remnants of OS/2 holding their own in the business market, IBM in full retreat from the PC market, and all competitors struggling to survive with marginal userbases for many years after Microsoft's decisive victory over IBM OS/2 in the mid '90s.
synchronise 13y ago
Does he say at all what frameworks he'll be targeting e.g. Fedora, Ubuntu, Wayland, Mir??
virtualwhys 13y ago
One issue that needs to be addressed is driver support, particularly around multi-monitor setups. Nvidia apparently now has at least partial support for Optimus laptops as of driver 319+ (currently 325). The biggest PITA with multi-monitor Linux based systems is dealing with forced max power state (read: constant heat generation and fan noise). Optimus should allow Intel graphics chip to drive say, your laptop display and one external monitor via VGA, and then the Nvidia chip drives an external via HDMI and Display Port. On Fedora 18 so can't yet upgrade to Nvidia driver >= 319. When I initially connected 2 external monitors to my laptop, the laptop GPU fan kicked on _every single minute_ click-whirrrr, click-whirrr, click-whirrrr, total madness. Was forced to mod the VBIOS, undervolting the Nvidia chip and slightly reducing GPU fan speed, a risky though rewarding operation. Now the laptop stays quiet since the GPU is constantly in adaptive/power saving state. Hardware undervolting is obviously a no-op for gamers; hopefully with Optimus the multi-monitor heat generation situation will improve to the point where users don't have to risk bricking their graphics card in order to have a sane Linux work environment when not gaming.
kayoone 13y ago
Gabe is scared of Valve being like Netscape when Internet Explorer came out. If he'd really care about linux, he would have started this years ago.
kriro 13y ago
I applaud more Linux everywhere and am quite happy about Steam on Linux but it is a little odd to see Valve talk about the virtues of openness while shipping DRMed games (I understand why they do it and don't even mind all that much it's just odd). I'm mostly a retrogamer anyways so I tend to wait/hope the games I like hit GOG
jlebrech 13y ago
Steam needs to Wine certify games, or launch games using wine and have a minimum/recommended requirements for using wine.
- Sprint 13y ago
  Wine and DRM is a problematic combination.
frankcaron 13y ago
HL3 will be a timed Linux-exclusive for Valve's official Steambox. Calling it now.
vikas0380 13y ago
new hardware coming soon :-) But what about the drivers,optimus technology still not officially supported.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

404 points by onosendai 13y ago

kmfrk 13y ago

"Kick the ball, Charlie! The future of gaming on Linux is bright!"

wmf 13y ago
What incentive does Valve have to pull some kind of bait-and-switch? They may be wrong about the future, but I don't think they're being intentionally deceptive.

Zikes 13y ago

Title is misleading, Gabe isn't promising any new hardware. Valve is poised to release "more information about how we get there and what are the hardware opportunities we see".

criley2 13y ago
It's like when we all waited months to hear Elon Musk explain how, in very vague statements, the hyperloop could maybe work, if everyone (the government) pitched in a hand.
- Zikes 13y ago
  I think it's fair to say it'll be a fairly long road. Dealing with hardware vendors, especially with GPU manufacturers, will be the biggest hurdle, and getting them all to fall in line will take a lot of work. Even if he announces the "Steambox" tomorrow, without a truly open Linux solution with very broad drivers support it won't mean much to games developers. It'd just be one more platform they'd have to explicitly support, i.e. they'd have to make a Windows version, Mac version, PS version, Xbox version, and finally a Steambox version

Mikeb85 13y ago

This is great news. More developer support, and more hardware support to be able to create a Steam box just as easily as a home theatre box (w/ something like XBMC) would be fantastic. Heck, I think even desktop gamers would simply be happy to be able to use Linux full-time, with the control and performance that comes with it.

JonnieCache 13y ago

The presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg#t=13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg#t=13

300bps 13y ago
Thanks for posting that. Before watching that, I was under the impression that Gabe was against Windows 8 because he fears competition from new digital distribution systems that can compete with Steam. After watching that, it has solidified my belief that his only complaint about Windows 8 is that competition is coming. What am I missing?
- r0s 13y ago
  That the altruism of his business decision isn't important? I think you're touching on the popular sentiment that Linux gaming would be a good thing for consumers. Therefor the news is interesting, as a disruption to current players if nothing else.
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  I know one issue they're worried about is display latency. DRM complicates this issue and potentially adds yet another layer of indirection to worry about. Though to be fair, I wonder how big of a driver this is for them. See Michael Abrash's discussion on VR latency: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/latency-the-sine-qua-non-of-ar-and-vr/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/latency-the-sine-qua-n... And also this tweet: I can send an IP packet to Europe faster than I can send a pixel to the screen. How f’d up is that? - John Carmack, Id Software

MLR 13y ago

I think he's completely off base to be honest, I think in the coming years Surface like devices will replace the traditional desktop, and unless Linux moves quickly, there's no way that space will be anything but Windows dominated. With Windows 8.1 out soon, which improves Windows 8 massively, I see it continuing to dominate into the future where desktops become increasingly marginalised.

boost_ 13y ago
how would surface like devices ever replace the traditional desktop? they allow no upgrades and pc gaming without a physical keyboard/mouse is just impossible.
- blah32497 13y ago
  You're missing the point. Most people don't have a dedicated computer to play pc games. They have one machines that they use to browse, email and play. The argument is that in the near future virtually all of those systems will have touch as part of the UI (not necessarily to replace the keyboard and mouse entirely, but as an added feature). Because Windows 8 is a significant step forward in touch based UI, when you buy you're next laptop/desktop you will be installing Windows 8 on it. You definitely won't be installing linux.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    The kind of gamers that Valve courts are the sort of people who still build their own PCs, and who still interact with their computer through game controllers and keyboard/mouse. You aren't going to replace TF2 or Skyrim input with touch-based input. Notta gonna happen. Just look at the games that Microsoft is currently peddling with their App Store. This stuff is not a competitor to Steam. It isn't even in the same market.
  - EpicEng 13y ago
    Yeah... you're focusing on the world of Candy Crush and <insert crappy in game purchase model game here> type games. Sure, huge market, also completely and utterly separated from the world of real gamers by a massive void of nothingness. There is of course overlap, but I'm not playing mobile games on my PC and I'm certainly not playing Arkham Origins or FFIV on some tiny tablet.

joeld42 13y ago

'"When we talk to developers and say, 'if you can pick one thing for Valve to work on the tools side to make Linux a better development target,' they always say we should build a debugger," he said.' Yes, please. That would be awesome.

rwmj 13y ago
Yeah, gdb really really sucks. I was yet again reminded of this today when trying to debug some multithreaded qemu code.
- palebluedot 13y ago
  I use gdb to debug qemu as well - have you tried using qtcreator as a gdb frontend? It is actually fairly decent. There is always room for improvement, of course, and it is far from perfect - so a new debugger would always be welcome. But it is about the best front end for gdb I've used, although I used to be pretty partial to Insight as well for embedded work.
- qznc 13y ago
  Is there really a problem with gdb apart from IDE integration? I am using gdb sometimes and it is just fine. Especially with the Python scripting support now. I used the Eclipse CDT gdb wrapper once and that, I agree, really sucks.
  - benjamincburns 13y ago
    > Especially with the Python scripting support now. Yes. A thousand times yes. > I used the Eclipse CDT gdb wrapper once and that, I agree, really sucks. Just curious, how long ago was that? My opinion of Eclipse kind of ebbs and flows. I've used the GDB support a bunch for remote debugging of embedded systems (including, surprisingly, the Linux kernel). In fairness, my gripe was always more with the IDE than its debugger support. CDT has always felt like the red-headed stepchild in comparison to Java support. The extra intelligence is nice, but it makes it so that you have to jump through lots of hoops to get it to be even remotely usable with a large codebase (again, the Linux kernel). Even on smaller codebases it can consume a buttload of memory and still be quite slow. But the debugger interface always seemed to "just work" for me.

desireco42 13y ago

I wish Gabe Newell promoted Linux with same passion before MS launched App Store and his business was threatened. I find it hard to believe anything he says. On other hand, I wish all best to Linux :)

meritt 13y ago
The sort of games present in App stores (itunes, google play, microsoft, facebook) cater to an entirely different audience than Steam.
- teamonkey 13y ago
  For now. Microsoft recently retired Game For Windows Live. I'm sure they have some kind of replacement planned that fits in with their current ecosystem.
Karunamon 13y ago
It is possible to simultaneously be against something both because it threatens your business and because you find it personally distasteful. Knowing what I've seen of Gabe the past few years, I'm inclined to believe it's a bit more of the latter than the former.
jlgreco 13y ago
That criticism seemed sensible several months ago, but where we are at right now, does it really seem like MS's App Store is doing any significant threatening? Just looking at http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/apps http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/apps it seems clear to me that this is not a threat. These are "iphone games", not "PC games". From what I have seen, the only competitor to Steam that is even a blip on the radar of gamers is Origin. If anything, Valve is pushing into territory that they think Origin cannot enter, not MS.
- mikevm 13y ago
  Do you really care about Valve's reasons? Let's just shut up and let them use their industry muscle to encourage Linux gaming, and in the end we will all win.

zerr 13y ago

Funny, how he packs one of the most real underlying reason - Linux is free as in beer.

walid 13y ago
Why is this funny? If I had the choice of either parting with 30%-20% of what I make or supporting another platform that gives me back that 30%-20% I'd support that other platform. After all Valve is a business and it doesn't make sense to accept someone dictating that they have a toll gate for your sales. Remember that Microsoft charges 30%-20% not for the user's sake but to make money for themselves.
- zerr 13y ago
  No, no. The decision is right, and I'd do the same. The "packing" itself, i.e. how he speaks about this, is funny. He doesn't articulate on this obvious reason.

TruthSHIFT 13y ago

I really like the idea of gaming on Linux, but I feel like there are still has a lot of unanswered questions. How do you stop developers from using Direct X? How do you convince graphics card companies to optimize their drivers for linux?

jaredmcateer 13y ago
Steambox pretty much answers both of those questions. They are bringing a platform into the console space where DirectX isn't as much of a gorilla in the rool, then when people develop games for the console they get the linux pc port for free, enough user base and demand will convince the graphics card companies.
teamonkey 13y ago
> How do you stop developers from using Direct X? You make something better.
adwf 13y ago
Two answers that I can think of at first glance: 1) A large proportion of the games that I own for Linux are developed using the Unity engine. This has many advantages for an indie developer (ease of use, cheap license), but is especially useful because it can cross-compile to Windows/Mac/Linux/Android/iOS/Xbox/PS. Even Blackberry! This is a godsend for indie developers trying to reach as large a market as possible. So the challenge isn't necessarily to get developers to stop using DirectX, but to get the major engine developers (eg. Unreal) to ensure good cross-compilation support. They already have to a certain extent, because the PS3 is already using a form of OpenGL. All we really need is a little extra effort from them to make sure it's compatible with Linux. This would immediately add a large proportion of the current game releases to the Linux market. 2) Driver optimisation isn't as important as you might think. The average PC graphics card vastly overtook consoles in graphical power a very long time ago. Certainly within a year or two of the current generation of consoles. Even without optimised drivers, they are still far more powerful than the Xbox360 or PS3. All in all, the obstacles are very surmountable. The biggest problem that I can see lies in convincing the big game engines, like Unreal, to bother with such a small market. But if Valve leads the way with the Source engine, they could start eating away at the likes of Unreal - simply by being the only AAA choice on Linux.

adwf 13y ago

I agree. I think this point really hit home for me when Rome Total War 2 came out. This has been one of my favourite game franchises ever since the original Shogun TW. But. I haven't bought it yet because it doesn't run on Linux. I don't want to reboot my dual-boot system anymore. Now, I just want to take a sec to point out that I'm not saying this from a snobbish boycotting point of view. But from a purely practical one. I've been toying with the Steam Linux beta since release and whilst I've had a lot of indie games in my catalogue (thanks Humble Bundle!), I've had hardly any AAA games except some old Valve titles - which I'd finished playing years ago. But recently there have been a couple of great Linux versions of strategy games that have come out (Crusader Kings 2, Europa Universalis 4), and when I weigh up the decision between rebooting to Windows to play something, or just stay in Linux and play one of those. I always stay. And that's in spite of a potentially great game like Rome TW2. Then when you add in some great looking upcoming games on Kickstarter, like Wasteland, Project Eternity, Torment Numenera, etc... Also, a huge victory (for a UK fan) of Football Manager 2014 upcoming for Linux. The future is looking very bright. All of this adds up to one thing, I don't have a need to reboot anymore. I used to get forced into using Windows just for gaming, now I actually have a choice. NB. On a side note, the catalogue for Linux isn't looking too bad either. I just checked my account and I have 310 games, of which 76 will run in Linux. Not too shabby anymore.

mercurial 13y ago
The influence of Kickstarter (largely due to Linux support for the popular game engine Unity) and Humble Bundle on the availability of games on Linux cannot be overstated. But even outside of Linux, it is wonderful to see how the indie gaming scene is blooming at the moment. There was an editorial (which I can't seem to find now) on Rock Paper Shotgun, about how we're having the golden age of gaming right now, and it's very true - though we'll have to wait for many of these kickstarters (Torment and Wasteland, to name to two most well-known ones) to come to fruition. It's also neat to see that they don't necessarily go the nostalgia route. The last one I've backed, Sunless Sea [1], is going to be a mix of different concepts (roguelike, exploration, survival, trade) along with a mechanism for madness, and is not a follow-up to anything in particular. I'll toast the future of gaming, happening right now. 1: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/failbetter/sunless-sea/ http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/failbetter/sunless-sea/

stormbrew 13y ago

One thing game devs, from my experience playing games on linux steam, need to work on with linux is how to deal with multimonitor setups. Every game I have in steam that runs on linux attempts to spread itself out across all my displays, which is especially busted when I have a vertical monitor. Entire sections of the screen are just cut off completely as the height of my virtual display is higher than 2 of my 3 monitors. Now, I use intel's video support and not nvidia, so I'm using randr to set up my monitors and not nvidia's proprietary stuff. I wonder if that's the issue.

jdjb 13y ago
I use the nvidia drivers and have the same problem.
kevingadd 13y ago
Multimonitor support in games is terrible on Windows too. Game devs just almost universally get it wrong. (I don't understand why; literally every dev I know uses multiple monitors...)
- stormbrew 13y ago
  Well, my experience on windows was always that the 'getting it wrong' was just choosing to play the game exclusively on the primary display. This at least leaves the game playable, and it never bothered me, I could never get used to paying attention to two screens joined into one for gaming. The result on linux is to literally make the game unplayable unless you manually disable extra displays.

vor_ 13y ago

I'm skeptical because Linux has been called the future of gaming for at least 15 years. During its heyday in the 1990s, id Software released a Linux port of every Quake game, and that still wasn't enough to cause a major shift in adoption, and that was at a time when PC users on average were more technically inclined. I also can't help but note that Gabe only began this public crusade when Microsoft released an app store that competed with Valve's app store. So I'm interested to see what happens, but I'm skeptical.

arthulia 13y ago
Linux in the 1990s was still quite strictly a platform for power users and tinkerers. Nowadays the Linux distros that people are adopting strive to be user friendly enough for your parents and grandparents.
- cheesylard 13y ago
  Yeah, I installed Ubuntu on my computer illiterate dad's computer and he prefers it to Windows 7. He says its faster and easier. He doesn't even know how to copy and paste. Couldn't really say that 10 years ago.
forgottenpass 13y ago
I also can't help but note that Gabe only began this public crusade when Microsoft released an app store that competed with Valve's app store. Well, of course. It's not hard to see the writing on the wall. Valve is looking for a platform where they can't be muscled out before they're muscled out of the one they're on. You can only compete with a vertical integrator for a long as they allow you compete. Doubly so with software platforms. If you look at the trajectory of Microsoft's platform control, there is zero reason Valve shouldn't be shitting their pants right now.
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  Well, Valve owns social gaming graph for every user. Until Microsoft creates seamless integration between Windows and Xbox and imports xbox graph, Valve has pretty powerful network effect on its side.

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phaus 13y ago

I hope they finish CS:GO soon, that's the only reason I still dual-boot Windows.

darkstalker 13y ago
I still dual boot Windows to play League of Legends.

vasquez 13y ago

Valve and Ubuntu might have popularized Linux gaming, but they also screwed us over. Every desktop CPU sold in the last decade, at least the ones capable of running games, supports x86-64. The only reason 32 bit installs exist in the wild is because Ubuntu (still) makes it their default download. Enter Steam for Linux. Targeting 32-bit Ubuntu, it makes this the de facto platform for Linux games. My desktop OS is now cluttered with multiarch libraries, and the top-end games I want to play won't take advantage of either the better instruction set or all my ram. Linux gaming could have been a fresh new start, a break from the 32-bit instruction set, but instead we're now stuck installing, maintaining and supporting 32-bit libs forever..

rlu 13y ago

FYI (only tangentially related to the presentation), here are the latest hardware survey results for Steam users. http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey You'll notice Windows 7 is still #1 (not surprising) but Windows 8 and 8.1 are the fastest growing, with almost 15% of Steam users running Win8 64bit.

BashiBazouk 13y ago
An interesting stat to see would be different OS's or hardware models per person or IP address. Here there are a few graphs that I would be in multiple categories...

archagon 13y ago

Question is, if Windows becomes a closed ecosystem or flops altogether, would PC gamers elect to move to Linux? Even if they do, there's going to be a significant loss of numbers along the way, and it's already a smaller market than consoles. I can see a future where most game companies (barring maybe Valve, Blizzard, and a few others) cut their losses and decide to focus solely on consoles and iOS/Android. That would be a sad future indeed.

Fuzzwah 13y ago
I'd suggest that the users will move to what ever platform best allows them to play games from their steam libraries. Gabe's end game has to be that the users aren't even aware they've moved to Linux; they just plug in their steambox and play their games.

rlu 13y ago

I sort of got bored of the presentation 15 minutes in (and was only half paying attention, truth be told) but it seems to me that Gabe is operating under the (gigantic) assumption that Microsoft would remove the Desktop and move Windows into a 100% closed environment. Sounds like he's jumping the gun. I don't see that future happening.

Pxtl 13y ago
He's being hyperbolic. The real problem is that he's feeling like Netscape circa 1997 - facing the problem that his main asset is competing against something built into the OS. Microsoft isn't going to kick 3rd-party game stores off of Windows, but they are building a 1st-party one... one they intend on growing. Gabe is worried about his cash cow becoming a second-class citizen on the platform.
devx 13y ago
They've already done that with Windows RT and WP8. No, I'm not talking about not being able to run legacy apps on it. I mean not being able to install apps from other sources other than the Windows Store. Do you really think Microsoft wouldn't prefer that in the future they make it so most people choose the Windows store over anything else, by pushing it even more into their faces, like they did with Metro? Many people asked for the Start Menu to be back in the desktop mode, and they didn't bring it back? Why would they do that, when it doesn't interfere at all with Metro mode to just have that in the desktop mode? Why else would they do that, if they didn't want to force Metro even more on you by turning it into a shortcut to Metro mode instead?
- rlu 13y ago
  One thing is wanting to get users to use Metro more. It's another thing entirely to force them to use it exclusively by removing any other option. Desktop apps can do many more things than WinRT apps are allowed to do. There are thousands of business critical applications running on desktop that are likely rarely maintained. These two reasons alone should convince you that Microsoft would be stupid to remove the desktop. The blend of Metro and desktop is not meant to kill the desktop. It's simply a bet on hybrid devices (like Surface, Yoga, etc.) becoming the norm in years to come.

SCdF 13y ago

While it's super cool that maybe I'll be able to run linux at home and still play games some time in the future, it's kind of sad that the only reason he cares is because he's worried about a MS app store potentially being a competitor to steam, and yet people are fervently praising him for it. He doesn't really care about linux, he doesn't really think Windows is a bad platform for gaming, he just wants to try to crush a competitor. If he did care he would have done something years ago. Id has managed to release the vast majority of their games on linux, and it didn't take a potential fiscal threat to make them do it.

ChikkaChiChi 13y ago
Never look a gift horse in the mouth. Be it altruistic or capitalist, Linux stands to benefit from the exposure and backing.
- zanny 13y ago
  But you can't assume it is a gift. What does it matter if desktop Linux takes off on the backs of proprietary nonfree software? Not just proprietary apps on top of a free stack, but a proprietary distribution platform where most programs bought for it only run through it, where the controller can at whim close your account, and they vet and determine who they bless to use their platform earpiece? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? The vast majorty of current Linux titles are not on Linux because of Steam. Few titles (Crusader Kings comes to mind) actually ported their engine to run on opengl / posix / alsa or sdl just because Steam appeared there. Most of the last 2 years of Linux gaming boom has been due to Unity and the Humble Bundle. Unity was porting to Linux before Steam on Linux was announced, same with the Humble Bundle. Having a platform is fine and everything, but here are two observations from seperate perspectives: 1. Why develop for a platform where you can only expect a few thousand sales, even on the de facto distribution platform that takes a cut of proceeds? 2. If there are no games on a platform, wouldn't you just want to release directly and let your potential customers come to you? If they are desperate, wouldn't cutting out the middle man be more profitable, since Steam isn't making Linux development easier, just marketing and sales processing? I think Steam is so important on the desktop PC because there are so many games on it. People don't go download Origin or seek out a developers site to buy a game, they just buy it on Steam. If you are on something like gnu/linux, you have no competition game-wise, you just have to make sure people know you exist. In almost any genre, you have minimum modern competition on the platform. So why give Valve whatever % they take?

BashiBazouk 13y ago

As someone who games on a PS3, steam via OSX and ios I'm not convinced there will ever be or needs to be a "winner". Some games are better close to the screen with a mouse. Some are better more relaxed on the couch and some are better on a tablet. I could picture getting a small gaming box running Linux if most of my steam library transferred over and anything new was offered in Linux. Professionally, I'm in print production and design, so Linux is unlikely to ever be my sole OS. I'm finding with the new batch of consoles and micro consoles there has been surprisingly little talk of cheating prevention. I was once almost completely a PC gamer but cheating in just about every multiplayer game I played pushed me to consoles. Even today most of the games I play on console that have PC versions are hacked quickly. There is cheating on consoles but at a much, much lower rate. If Linux via Steam can do something significant about cheating that would be a huge plus. As far as digital download services, Steam has value to me working on different OS's. All the games in my steam library work on windows. This has proved a godsend when visiting the in laws on the other side of the country for a week at a time. Ios has proven quite good at having apps last through many generations of hardware. Many apps I bought on the original iphone work on all modern ios devices. I have given up on buying digital versions on PS3 as they seem like a dead end. At least with the disk there is a good chance sometime down the line an emulator will come out for what ever computer I will be running in the future...

beloch 13y ago

Newell has the ulterior motive of killing Microsoft's app store, which he clearly sees as a direct threat to Steam. If it takes off, indeed it will be! I remain unconvinced that Linux has passed the tipping point and is on it's way to becoming the home entertainment OS of the future though. I use it on my work laptop and love it, but Win8 runs my HTPC. 1. A home entertainment box does more than play games these days. Windows is still the only OS with acceptable bluray support. OSX is as out in the cold as Linux on this score even though Apple is a member of the bluray consortium! Some may be tempted to scoff at physical media, but it's still alive and well, especially with the audio/video-phile crowd. 2. If games have to be rewritten to operate on Linux, most existing games never will. Most games, once their sales have ceased bringing in cash, are abandoned and never updated again. Legacy gaming support is important. A lot of people have beloved games that are years or decades old that they still occasionally play. If switching to Linux means they have to abandon those, they won't. If Newell is serious about his Steam boxes succeeding, he needs to support work that will let older games run on Linux without modification and he needs to support development of a bluray support package for Linux, plus any future formats. No open source software will ever legally support bluray. I like open source and I'm sure some fanatics will be tempted to blast me for calling for more closed-source software on Linux, but that's precisely what Newell is doing. He's bringing closed source, non-free software to Linux. If you want to see Steam on Linux succeed, you're demanding something free, open-source software has yet to deliver.

dekz 13y ago
I'd hate to tell you that you're in a bit of a minority buying bluray and using bluray medium. The future isn't physical disks that you lose. Linux runs my media pc and my media server. Valve have already accomplished full platform support for most of their games, Humble indie bundles require full platform support for their games. Linux versions of most games, isn't some far away dream, it's here. I'm not sure I fully comprehend your linux 'open-source' only argument. Have you seen ubuntu?
- cgh 13y ago
  Like the OP says, for people serious about audio and video quality, they will buy Blu-ray (or whatever physical media replaces it) for a long time to come. The bandwidth simply isn't there otherwise. That said, I agree with you that the future is not with physical media - that's very obviously the case. But the future isn't here yet. > Linux versions of most games, isn't some far away dream, it's here. That's absurd. There are no AAA titles available on Linux. Newell's prediction might seem more realistic if Ubisoft, Rockstar, etc. jump on board. Maybe it will happen if a viable Linux-based console came around.

OWaz 13y ago

Is Gabe specifically suggesting creating native Linux games? It wasn't too long ago when John Carmack commented that "The conventional wisdom is that native Linux games are not a good market". So then does Steam carry enough weight to challenge conventional wisdom? 1: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_asks_why_wine_isnt_good_enough/c89sfto http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_a...

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jalada 13y ago

"20xx: The year of Linux gaming" is the new "20xx: The year of the Linux desktop"

nostromo 13y ago

I think people forget that Gabe started his career at Microsoft, and spent over a decade there. It may have been a million years ago by tech standards, but I think that subcontext makes his statements about Linux even more interesting.

Paradigma11 13y ago
Disgruntled Ex-Worker?

runn1ng 13y ago

It feels like cognitive dissonance when the maker of Steam, that is full of DRM and, of course, closed source, talks about the successes of open source. I mean, I have nothing against proprietary source (the difference between open source games quality and proprietary games quality is giant), but Valve made their living on proprietary code and now they are preaching the opposite.

Fuzzwah 13y ago
Valve made it big because they released portions of their code along with the tools to create mods and total conversions of their games. They then hired the most talented people who were using these tools, either pulling them in to work on half-life or to create commercial versions of their own projects. Then then made it bigger by making it easier for outside devs to publish on steam. Over the course of a decade they worked to turn steam from something that everyone hated into something that nearly everyone loves. The turn around has been incredible; from a hindrance no one wanted to a platform no one wants to do with out. I believe that Gabe is more interested in Linux because it is an "open platform" rather than it being "open source". Valve were quite happy working on Windows when it was an "open platform" that they could release games onto with out having to jump through hoops. As MS moves to force everything through their own app store, Valve are looking elsewhere.

Arjuna 13y ago

This piece from Gabe's talk [1] is interesting: "But the one entity we wouldn't ever want to compete with is our own users, right? They have already out-stripped us spectacularly. You can't compete with them once you give them the tools that allow them to participate in the creation of the experiences that they find are valuable. And it's not by a little bit; it's like an order of magnitude more productive already, and we're only a couple of years into thinking about how to do that. [...] The point is that the connected groups of users are going to be way more successful if they're properly enabled and supported than any of the individual game developers are going to be. But, there's this huge tension between, if that's the direction that gaming is going, or if that's the direction content creation is going, these other systems actually put a tremendous number of road-blocks in the way of doing that. It takes Valve several months to get through certification process for a single update. I mean, it took us 6 months to get one update through the Apple Store to ship an iPad update. We have a lot of resources and have a huge commercial motivation. No individual user, if they're the sort of center of gravity for content production, is going to have the wherewithal or the stubbornness to get through that. That's just one example of the many ways that the closed systems appear to us to be antithetical to our user-centric model of content production, going forward." -- Like you, I'm just trying to "read the tea leaves" here, but the future is user-generated content. Valve needs to leverage that by offering a hardware platform [2] that will allow them to be in complete and full control, both technologically and financially. A hardware platform that they can update as needed, that will give users more control to generate content; free from the concerns of pushing an update through Apple or Microsoft. In turn, their goal will be to leverage content creation by connecting users in a unified economy, again, that they control. They engaged Yanis Varoufakis [3], who is a renowned academic economist, no doubt to assist in that endeavor. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg&t=783 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzn6E2m3otg&t=783 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steambox#Steam_Box https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steambox#Steam_Box [3] http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a-strange-email http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/it-all-began-with-a...

m3mnoch 13y ago
> the future is user-generated content as a veteran of the "user-generated" game content industry, i can honestly say 5 years ago, i had that same vision. 5 years of blood, sweat, money and tears later, i can (also honestly) say -- that's not the case. and won't be. for those of you who've never made (finished and shipped!) a game before, it's an incredibly frustrating experience. you have what would be called an mvp in ycombinator terms inside of a month. "i will crush the rest of this thing out 3 months and ship!" uh... no. i'm here to tell you that is not the case. the whole "first 90%" vs. the "second 90%" thing is magnified 10-fold in games. it's a really long post for me to explain the myriad of gotchas involved from safely syncing game state between sleep-and-non-sleep-packets-suddenly-flood-in-but-omg-my-clock to btw-you-need-3-times-the-states-in-your-state-machine-oops to why-am-i-getting-3-fps-on-a-faster-device to all-of-the-above-times-multiplayer-exponentially. i plan on writing that post someday, but not now. anyway. the prototype flies off your finger tips and then the next 2 and a half years (please see the common thread of 3 years to make a game, from the movie indie gamer [highly recommended!] to that recent atomic brawl post) working through obscure bugs and corner cases because games have more complex interactions than non-games and gamers don't have a clue how to follow the damn happy path when they play. so, yes. i said 1 month of fun, fast iterative prototype and 2 years of awful, in-the-weeds debugging where your strength of will to finish is tested daily. (insert rovio making 51 games before angry birds here) finishing a good game is goddamnhard. finishing a shitty game is a snap -- just ship your prototype! what we found was that anyone who has the strength and perseverance to actually build and (more importantly) finish a game was already working in the game industry -- mostly because they possess a proven will to finish. i guess what's i'm saying is lots of people can snap together sweet, use-with-care prototypes ugc-style. almost nobody -- and i really, really mean almost nobody, like 0.0001% of "i want to make a game" developers -- can actually finish and launch a game regardless of scope. mind you -- i don't view indie games as ugc. if you ship (SHIP, not start) an indie game, you have what it takes to work in the non-indie game world. you just choose not to. if you don't believe me, i challenge you to prove me wrong and just make a simple game this weekend and let your friends play it where you can watch, but not talk or help them at all. it will take approximately 12 seconds of them touching your game before you're completely "wtf -- how did that happen?!?!?" screwed. m3mnoch.

akurilin 13y ago

Knowing that Valve will from now on be heavily supporting game development and deployment onto Linux machines is very encouraging.

deepblueq 13y ago

I just ordered parts for a gaming machine the other day, and it'll be running Linux. A surprising number of games run on it directly now, and Wine works for the ones I care about that don't. There's now absolutely nothing I want to do that requires Windows - even two years ago that wasn't at all the case.

sytelus 13y ago

This statement feels like so last century. Isn't the future of the gaming is in the browser? Operating software wars feels meaningless and ridiculous these days.

csense 13y ago
> Isn't the future of the gaming is in the browser? I'm of the belief that the amount of revenue that can be squeezed out of games written by Zynga and the like represents a relatively small share of the overall gaming market. I think there will always be gamers who want full-screen games with large assets -- and there's no plugin or browser subsystem that adequately delivers that experience, and the content files for a modern 3D game are often a little too large to host remotely. Especially on phones. > Operating software wars feels meaningless and ridiculous these days Apple's App Store, Microsoft's secure-boot and app-store ecosystem lockdown attempts that numerous others have commented on in this thread, Android's capture of a significant portion of the mobile market, Linux's powers waxing by the year, the fall of Sun and the implosion of Solaris... The OS wars are getting interesting again! For many years there was more-or-less total stagnation in the market, with Windows ascendant, a few UNIX flavors and the remnants of OS/2 holding their own in the business market, IBM in full retreat from the PC market, and all competitors struggling to survive with marginal userbases for many years after Microsoft's decisive victory over IBM OS/2 in the mid '90s.

synchronise 13y ago

Does he say at all what frameworks he'll be targeting e.g. Fedora, Ubuntu, Wayland, Mir??

virtualwhys 13y ago

One issue that needs to be addressed is driver support, particularly around multi-monitor setups. Nvidia apparently now has at least partial support for Optimus laptops as of driver 319+ (currently 325). The biggest PITA with multi-monitor Linux based systems is dealing with forced max power state (read: constant heat generation and fan noise). Optimus should allow Intel graphics chip to drive say, your laptop display and one external monitor via VGA, and then the Nvidia chip drives an external via HDMI and Display Port. On Fedora 18 so can't yet upgrade to Nvidia driver >= 319. When I initially connected 2 external monitors to my laptop, the laptop GPU fan kicked on _every single minute_ click-whirrrr, click-whirrr, click-whirrrr, total madness. Was forced to mod the VBIOS, undervolting the Nvidia chip and slightly reducing GPU fan speed, a risky though rewarding operation. Now the laptop stays quiet since the GPU is constantly in adaptive/power saving state. Hardware undervolting is obviously a no-op for gamers; hopefully with Optimus the multi-monitor heat generation situation will improve to the point where users don't have to risk bricking their graphics card in order to have a sane Linux work environment when not gaming.

kayoone 13y ago

Gabe is scared of Valve being like Netscape when Internet Explorer came out. If he'd really care about linux, he would have started this years ago.

kriro 13y ago

I applaud more Linux everywhere and am quite happy about Steam on Linux but it is a little odd to see Valve talk about the virtues of openness while shipping DRMed games (I understand why they do it and don't even mind all that much it's just odd). I'm mostly a retrogamer anyways so I tend to wait/hope the games I like hit GOG

jlebrech 13y ago

Steam needs to Wine certify games, or launch games using wine and have a minimum/recommended requirements for using wine.

Sprint 13y ago
Wine and DRM is a problematic combination.

frankcaron 13y ago

HL3 will be a timed Linux-exclusive for Valve's official Steambox. Calling it now.

vikas0380 13y ago

new hardware coming soon :-) But what about the drivers,optimus technology still not officially supported.

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