29 ms·

“People simply empty out”

723 points by tantaman 13y ago

zoba 13y ago
They never pay the slaves enough so they can get free, just enough so they can stay alive and come back to work. I do love my job, though there is so much more I want to do with my life - so much more I could do that (as far as I can tell) would really help humanity. Unfortunately I'm locked into working because of student loans and overall cost of living. I try to do work in my free time but sadly 3 hours a night does not build a company with enough revenue to grant me freedom. By the time I've earned enough from my job to afford not having a job I worry I'll have moved on to a different life stage where kids will take up my evenings. I know I'm not the only talented, driven 20-something in this situation and with student loans recently so high, it is a pity to think that overall out generation will have fewer who are able to make their ideas real because of it. Thanks to YC for offsetting that effect and helping us believe we can "get free".
- bmac27 13y ago
  Unfortunately, the modern day tech incubator model serves a very narrow audience with a very limiting set of criteria (e.g. billion dollar markets). There are lots of other people like the gentlemen referenced in the article that simply want to build a self-sustaining income stream. Crowdsourcing is helping to fill that vacuum at least partially; but I think more can be done in this arena to help people escape the awful "Office Space"-like dronework that, unfortunately, is still the norm today.
orofino 13y ago
This goes off the tracks for me about midway through. While for many people the reality described is actually their life, there are many of us (and I'd imagine a huge percentage of those reading this) that aren't slaves. If you're making over 70-80k/year, you have the capacity to save a lot and do the things you want to do before you hit 55, 65, or 75.
hcarvalhoalves 13y ago
Employment is, by definition, exploitation. If the objective of the company is to profit, it has to pay the employee less than the value he generates. The alternative is profiting out of non-internalized costs (e.g., exploiting natural resources).
- chii 13y ago
  there are other forms of organization out there - a non-profit, "cooperative" organization could and should be the norm. This form of organization means that everyone in the org is an owner, and is paid according to the work they do. There is no fat cat at the top that don't do work but takes in money. I believe in brazil there is a manufacturing company that is like this - each worker gets a slice of the profit.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    Sorry worker coops are all about making money but distributing it in a more equitable way with the workers controlling the company. John Lewis makes a profit and the "partners" got 17% of salary as a bonus in FY12/13
  - GFischer 13y ago
    Here in Uruguay, we have lots of "cooperatives" (our country has a long socialist story), most work out well, but they come across many of the same problems that faced the old Soviet Union, and you do get "fat cats" at the top regardless of the supposed equality system. http://uruguayeduca.edu.uy/Userfiles/P0001/File/Cooperativismo%20en%20Uruguay.pdf http://uruguayeduca.edu.uy/Userfiles/P0001/File/Cooperativis... We have: - Transport cooperatives - Dairy products cooperative (Conaprole) - Healthcare cooperatives, which serve most of the population ("Mutualistas", based on Mutualism) - An Insurance cooperative - Credit Union cooperatives - Housing cooperatives (those are the ones that worked out for the worst) In many cases, they compete with non-cooperatives. Edit: while they should be equal, even if they get same or slightly better pay, cooperative directors have lots of actual power, which can be turned to money if they so desire (kickbacks, etc...)
- ckannan90 13y ago
brianpgordon 13y ago
> What do they do it for? Sex? TV? An automobile on monthly payments? Or children? Children who are just going to do the same things that they did? Hm... abject terror of homelessness.
tankbot 13y ago
Can I just say that I love Charles Bukowski? If you've never read him go buy his books now. There's so much humanity in there. Some will think he's a downer or depressing, but I think he's genius. His life reminds me of this quote by Hokusai: When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern of nature, of animals, of plants, of trees, birds, fish and insects. When I am 80 you will see real progress. At 90 I shall have cut my way deeply into the mystery of life itself. At 100, I shall be a marvelous artist. At 110, everything I create; a dot, a line, will jump to life as never before. Never stop learning, folks.
- vineel 13y ago
  Are there any specific books you recommend?
  - byproxy 13y ago
    Ham on Rye
  - tankbot 13y ago
    Run With the Hunted and Love is a Dog from Hell spring to mind, but for me half the fun of reading him is just jumping in randomly. His life was chaos so it's fitting. If you read enough about "Hank" a picture of who he was will start to materialize. Since he's dead and not able to spend your book sales money on booze and horses, he'd probably be ok with you just reading his stuff online for free[0]. He is also great to listen to, there are a lot of recordings of his readings that you can find in the usual places. The poems are filled with a kind of beautiful carnage which contrasts the even tone of his delivery. Like, "Yeah, that crazy shit happened but so what?" One of my favorites as a teaser to start with: Rain a symphony orchestra. there is a thunderstorm, they are playing a Wagner overture and the people leave their seats under the trees and run inside to the pavilion the women giggling, the men pretending calm, wet cigarettes being thrown away, Wagner plays on, and then they are all under the pavilion. the birds even come in from the trees and enter the pavilion and then it is the Hungarian Rhapsody #2 by Lizst, and it still rains, but look, one man sits alone in the rain listening. the audience notices him. they turn and look. the orchestra goes about its business. the man sits in the night in the rain, listening. there is something wrong with him, isn't there? he came to hear the music. [0] http://www.poemhunter.com/charles-bukowski/poems/ http://www.poemhunter.com/charles-bukowski/poems/ p.s. I can't speak for the quality of that site, you may have better luck elsewhere. When I looked up Rain all I got was the first line, so it's possible that other poems have errors.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
seanconaty 13y ago
Wow. Never thought Bukowski would make it on HN, let alone this high.
hnnnnng 13y ago
So beautifully voices exactly what I've been thinking.
- Florin_Andrei 13y ago
  Beautiful and depressing.
revelation 13y ago
$100 are about $650 in todays money [1]. [1]: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=100%24+from+1969 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=100%24+from+1969
- pdx6 13y ago
  No. It is $3323. 1oz gold coin price in USD: 1969 40 2013 1362
  - ojbyrne 13y ago
    Last I checked, gold makes a poor meal.
  - JoeCortopassi 13y ago
    You are taking the value of a tangible asset from 1969 and comparing it to todays value of said tangible asset. This in no way illustrates the inflation rate. All it shows (assuming your numbers are right) is the increase in the perceived value of gold in that time frame. The original comment's $650 number is close enough to be considered accurate
    - baddox 13y ago
      What's the distinction between "perceived value" and just normal value?
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        Maybe poor choice in words, but the point is no one asset can be counted on to directly monitor inflation. Using the gold example- suppose industrial demand for gold to fuel the semiconductor industry tripled the price of gold compared to 1969. Now suppose the price of milk, bread, gasoline, electricity, water, clothing, and alcohol only doubled in price compared to 1969. If inflation is a measure of your purchasing power IN GENERAL (not your purchasing power of gold), inflation was roughly 200%, no? If gold had absolutely no practical value by itself, it would be free of market demands like that in my example. But of course then its value would have no connection to purchasing power, and we're right back where we started.
thinker 13y ago
Such beautiful words. Love the last line: "To not to have entirely wasted one's life seems to be a worthy accomplishment, if only for myself."
- jorgecastillo 13y ago
  I am adding this line to my .bashrc file.
  - glitch003 13y ago
    -bash: To: command not found
blackhole 13y ago
I feel like too many people get sucked into the idea of furthering their career, to the point that they forget to further their own life. What is the point of existence if we never get around to experiencing it? "It's not the things we do in life that we regret on our death bed, it is the things we do not." - Randy Pausch
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- curiousfiddler 13y ago
  Makes sense, but I also feel that thinking about the regret-at-death moment is not quite an appropriate motivator - it will anyway be so shortlived.
- zobzu 13y ago
  and that obviously, not everyone can be promoted to whatever they wanna be promoted to, and thus, the chance of hitting the target is never "good" Same for startups ;-)
- _delirium 13y ago
  Hence the somewhat curious (and I think, very American) idea of the "Golden Years". If you put your head down and work hard, taking no vacations, until you're age 65, then you flip 180 degrees in the other direction and retire into a life of full-time leisure. So if you live long enough, it really won't be a waste; you cash it in all at the end! A Scandinavian psychologist somewhat recently proposed a typically Scandinavian reversal of this: he suggested people should work to age 80, but work proportionally less in all the years up to there. Basically redirect the pension system to subsidize more early-age vacation and less pension. edit: http://cphpost.dk/business/researcher-advocates-25-hour-working-week-%E2%80%93-until-age-80 http://cphpost.dk/business/researcher-advocates-25-hour-work...
  - VexXtreme 13y ago
    > Hence the somewhat curious (and I think, very American) idea of the "Golden Years". If you put your head down and work hard, taking no vacations, until you're age 65, then you flip 180 degrees in the other direction and retire into a life of full-time leisure. So if you live long enough, it really won't be a waste; you cash it in all at the end! And this exact kind of thinking is what the societal overlords want you to subscribe to. Give them the best years of your life to get a degree of freedom later in your life, when the freedom won't matter anymore anyway, cause you'll be pissing in your diapers and be limited to a very small subset of things a healthy young person can do. I see it this way: when you're retired and old, the overall potential of what you can do with your life is much lower than that of when you were in your 20s and 30s. Why is that? Because an old person with the same amount of time and money can do much less with those resources than a young person. When you live your life like a run off the mill robot, living your life according to a set of societal expectations and rules set by other people, what's the point of such a life anyway? PS. OP, I wasn't addressing you, in case you feel I've attacked your point, I am just furthering it :)
morgante 13y ago
Reminds me how lucky I (we?) are to be free of the monotonous prison of every day life which most Americans are stuck in.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  Who is "we"?
  - morgante 13y ago
    In general, most developers have a lot of freedom in employment and can probably escape it given a little planning.
- nanidin 13y ago
  I'm there now and I don't know what to do with my life...
- nilved 13y ago
  If that helps you get by, believe what you what!
Casseres 13y ago
Today, too many people have jobs to support their lifestyles, not their lives. People end up working to continue making monthly payments on houses larger than they need, cars fancier than they need, and they won't be able to fully enjoy those things because they're always working 9-5. Today, we are a lot further along than we were 50 years ago. People aren't working in factories to put bread on the table, people are working in offices to pay for their next new car or big screen TV. My goal is to make as much money as I can as fast as I can so that instead of trying to become the next billionaire, I can stop working and become the next great thinker. I value knowledge and happiness over money.
- Afforess 13y ago
  People buy things they can't afford, with money that they don't have, to impress people that they don't like I realized I could live off of $25000/yr and maintain a modestly comfortable lifestyle at the same time. I am on track to retire before I am 40. Anyone can do it. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-...
  - javert 13y ago
    If I may ask, where do you live? Do you have family to support? I am under the assumption I could do it a lot cheaper if I were to choose not to have a family and to live in rural or semi-rural North Carolina. (Edit: I picked North Carolina becuase that's where I already am.)
    - Afforess 13y ago
      No, Raleigh NC.
      - javert 13y ago
        Thanks for the response, and wow, we are actually very close geographically. I'm surprised that you came up with $25,000.
16s 13y ago
I'm glad he made it out, but that's a sad story. When you stop and think about what he's saying, it's depressing. And, it's true.
dnautics 13y ago
I don't happen to believe the wage system is slavery (I do happen to believe we have a modern slavery system, but that's another story) "They never pay the slaves enough so they can get free, just enough so they can stay alive and come back to work." But then why don't the slaves leave? Unlike in the past, nobody is holding a gun to their head. One possibility, probably popular among entrepreneurial types, is the slaves don't leave, because they don't think they can leave. It's a problem that is easily solved! All the boring types need is a little bit of education, for them to learn that leaving is possibility. But maybe, what scares us a little bit, is that maybe the slaves don't want to leave. They value that security that the boring life brings them (that is why they complain "it ain't right" - because they have lost something they really valued). This is the really scary thing, because we don't want to be boring but we could see ourselves making the same choice. At the same time we don't understand the choice of the slaves to not leave, we identify with it at a level that we maybe can't explain. But is it a wrong choice? Who are we to judge others for choosing security over wealth or self-exploration? Maybe we are at a knife edge- a little bit less motivation here, a marginal preference there, a taste of failure here, and we, too, would pick security over wealth (of money, of intellect, of experience). I think that the strange paternalistic attitude of the passage is a result of the fear - the fear of that condition.
- scott_karana 13y ago
  I think it's more a metaphorical "leave", as in "leave the rat race". Most people know they can leave their job, but leaving a chosen career path is a lot harder, especially for a less educated person, and particularly for blue collar workers. What are they supposed to do? Quit without savings and try to change careers? (That's the feeling, anyways. Not sure what the answer is.)
  - dnautics 13y ago
    Well I've quit without savings (ok, with one month's savings) twice. Both times I had friends who were kind enough to help take care of me until I could find a job. I'm about to quit (with two month's savings), and there is a strong possibility I'll change careers. It's certainly possible. I do think people generally lack the courage to try, but even that is besides my point. I think if even if people did have the courage, most would not WANT to. The don't want to leave the rat race, even though they hate it, because the security is what they crave.
jusben1369 13y ago
I was struck by the fact that it was written in 1969 yet is incredibly contemporary. Will we lament the same things in 2060?
- chii 13y ago
  i would say yes, because the human condition hardly ever changes.
DanielBMarkham 13y ago
I support and understand what he's saying, but I think too many times we set up this false choice between "pursuing our dreams" and "working for the man" There's honor -- and authenticity -- in making choices for your life that involve working in the system. I used to look down on those who worked jobs they hated and would say things like "That's just not for me. I don't know how you can do it." until one day somebody took me aside and pointed out what an insulting and condescending attitude I had. I was being a jerk, a well-paid, able-to-pick-what-I-want-to-do jerk. Other people did not have the same lives or face the same choices as I did. I should respect their uniqueness and decisions -- even if they loudly and publicly complained about them. I have learned that for myself it is too easy to go off on a wild tangent about how one lifestyle is so much better than another, talking about slavery and such, just like in this letter. Basically I was being a judgmental prick, substituting my values for other people's and then declaring that my choices and values were best for everybody. I finally realized that the quality of life is something each of us owns through our own personal choices. So I don't do that anymore.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  That other people don't have a choice in doing that jobs they complain about doesn't mean there is "honour" in that. It's degrading to be forced into doing something you see no value in. And what does "authenticity" even mean in this context? There is authenticity and uniqueness in the things people do despite their soul killing jobs, but what's authentic about, say, selling your body? I find this just as condescending, sorry: If those people complain, i.e. if they say it sucks for them, then it sucks for them. Talking about authenticy and uniqueness, and pretending they have much a of a choice, is respecting a strawman (i.e. decisions they never got to make), while disrespecting their actual situation.
- epo 13y ago
  My God, could you be any more complacent or condescending? Could you have comprehended the letter less? You are, in your own words, still being a jerk, just a self-righteous one. And no, you didn't understand a single thing he wrote. Most people have no real choice in their work, except in the technical sense of one shitty job versus another. Most people don't "own their lives", their lives are dictated to them. To dismiss those lives as it being them having made a personal choice (the implication presumably being that they could have chosen to be a VC or a surgeon) is contemptible.
enraged_camel 13y ago
>>You know my old saying, "Slavery was never abolished, it was only extended to include all the colors." Some people balk at the idea of "wage slavery," primarily because they think it is so different from the traditional slavery that it should not be called that. But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a while, the answer becomes clear: you are not free. Sure, you have the freedom to switch from one slave-owner to another, but at no point in the process do you have real freedom.
- philwelch 13y ago
  There's no state of nature where people are free from starvation without having to work. Even hunters and gatherers have to hunt and gather.
  - teeja 13y ago
    From what I've read, the hunter-gatherers still on Earth have to work about 2 hours each day. For everything. Of course they don't have all the fancy toys. Or the worries and medications. Running away from an existence you've never really been given time to understand. Bukowski's right about how it empties you out. But unless you're lucky as him, few options have been left you. The land's all owned, and the "hunting" is long-gone. In the end, only the market is free. Until the day you drop it and turn away.
    - tomp 13y ago
      > the hunter-gatherers still on Earth have to work about 2 hours each day That's because they live in low numbers in tropical climates, where food is plentiful throughout the year and shelter is never needed.
  - dsbmac 13y ago
    This is true but the work that they do, they or their families will benefit 100%. "Free labor". It is honest equitable work. The system in place siphons that labor by people who control capital. Income inequality.
stuff4ben 13y ago
I'm not sure the alternative is any better as a startup founder/employee. You're putting in greater amounts of hours, blood, sweat, and tears for less money in a lot of cases. Sometimes it pays off, oftentimes it doesn't. Bear in mind I speak as a corporate wage-slave whose company just announced layoffs after a "record quarter". The answer must be to win the lottery, maybe I should start playing...
wwweston 13y ago
I've been at my current full-time job a bit over a year. The previous six years were a mix of freelance, contract, and startup work -- sometimes full-time, sometimes way-more-than-full-time, and sometimes not at all... but usually part-time. There are some things I like about the current job, and if I stick around at least another six months, I'll likely play a key role in overhauling the front end of a major automaker's website using state-of-the art. Not a bad feather to stick in a cap. On the other hand, the chances that I'll do anything else in the meanwhile seem pretty slim. I notice in the last year alone, my energy for original/personal projects is diminished, I feel less creative/thoughtful in general -- and arguably even less interesting than during the aforementioned freelance period. I do feel, as Bukowski put it, somewhat emptied out by my work. It's possible what I really need is a different full-time gig, since I have been in some full-time situations that felt energizing. But I'm starting to be convinced that when I'm hiring myself out part-time, I stay more personally grounded and sharper as far as my general skills and strength in the field goes. Unfortunately, steady skilled part-time employment seems to be considerably more difficult to find than full-time.
djim 13y ago
i sold my startup about 3 months ago, and immediately starting looking for another job. after a couple months, a couple interesting but-not-exciting offers, and one interview process that ended in me not getting an offer, i finally took a worthy vacation. while on a boat in the caribbean, a couple things occurred to me: (1) i really don't need to work for the next ~10 years (2) in that time, i will likely stumble on another opportunity similar to the previous one, which has afforded me this financial freedom (3) i am way more interested in learning, exploring, and art than a "real" job, even a job like my previous one, that i particularly enjoyed. (4) i am very fortunate to be in this position, and i really don't want to waste it. so i've been giving this topic some serious thought. to work or not to work? that is the question.
- davros 13y ago
  My experience is that reaching a 'work-optional' state is not the easy transition most would think it. I recommend that you search for a meaningful goal and get to work on it, drifting is dangerous.
- mingmecca 13y ago
  Well, based on my experience you definitely want to 'work', but work on things that fulfill you in some way. Hopefully your startup sale allows you to never again be dependent on the The Man, so if you're tasked with something onerous and/or stupid, you can simply walk away.
- pyoung 13y ago
  I am currently taking a sabbatical of sorts after slaving away and saving up for 5 years. I threw most of my savings into index funds, and then set up automatic withdrawals to my savings account. This forces me to try and live within a certain budget. If all goes well (i.e. market stays healthy), I will have only spent down a small amount of my savings by the time I return to the labor force. In the mean time, I have been taking some coursera classes, toying with some side projects, and doing some R&R. I highly recommend it for people who can afford to do this.
  - decadentcactus 13y ago
trustfundbaby 13y ago
"A man can never drink his fill by waiting in line for the tap" That quote motivates me everyday, because it reminds me that the things I want in life will never be achieved by working at a place in any capacity where the choice of my continued employment lies in the hands of any one person.
blacksqr 13y ago
Bukowski = automatic upvote
rooshdi 13y ago
Sad reality, but one hopes we finally crack the code, so to speak, within our lifetimes.
sspiff 13y ago
He seems to speak of the supervisor of the packers as someone who is above the working life, but the fact is that he is trapped for life as well, he just happens to be trapped one sport higher on a very long ladder. I figure this being trapped is a sentiment a lot of people share, although I know of a significant minority of people who enjoy their jobs and lives, even after 30 years of "paycheck slavery". The whole story reminds me of the song Factory by Bruce Springsteen.
20130816 13y ago
> In 1969, publisher John Martin offered to pay Charles Bukowski $100 each and every month for the rest of his life, on one condition: that he quit his job at the post office and become a writer. this makes me think of basic income, which might be one approach to ending wage slavery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
goggles99 13y ago
This guy worked at a bunch of "shitty" jobs. I think he would be better served advocating that people get a good education and perhaps end up doing something that they actually enjoy. Sorting mail and packing lighting fixtures sucks... Don't force your reality on the rest of us Hank.
LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
Interesting fact: 100usd in 1969 bought you nearly 3 ounces of gold. Price of gold today is 1350usd. Today's value of 100usd in 1969 would be about $4k. Not bad at all.
- GFischer 13y ago
  100 USD from 1969 would be equivalent to 636 USD today. So it would have been a great buy, but you have to take inflation into account. Also, 100 USD from 1969 invested in the stock market (S&P 500) in 1969 would have given you 5403 USD from 2013 today, so buying those ounces wouldn't even have been the best investment. Almost any solid investment over 50 years would give absurd returns. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ Edit: source for the S&P quote: http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    In my book equating for inflation is simply representing price in gold. I.e. did you know that the oil price for the past 50 years is the same if you use gold to measure it? Flat line. The same goes for the cost of living, etc. Salaries are down though. Here is your inflation. Gold isn't an investment. Gold is just a currency that can't be created out of thin air. It represents energy and labor needed to get it out of the ground. Currently the mining cost is about $1,200 with gold price about $1,300. That's why looks worse than S&P the price is as low as the production cost at the moment. If you are interested in the real inflation rate, I'd advise to use formula that was last used by the US Government in 1980s in Reagan years. By that formula the current inflation is at 10%. In 1990s the Government added a lot of absurdities to the formula confusing technological progress with inflation hence the official inflation is non-existent while the average healthcare premium is up from 5 to 20% every year not to even mention about the cost of necessities like gas, food, energy, all the result of doubling monetary base by the FED in 2008-2012 to rescue zombie banks.
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
"They never pay the slaves enough so they can get free, just enough so they can stay alive and come back to work." I suspect the author is being intentionally misleading regarding the costs of staying alive. It doesn't take $20,000/year. More like $5,000, and even that is being generous. Early Retirement Extreme and other books cover this in more detail, of course. I do agree with the overall sentiment of his article, but the concept that the current state of affairs is some kind of intentional conspiracy is incorrect. People like the security of being indebted and forced to work, it seems. They are not forced into such a life.
nickthemagicman 13y ago
IS even the question of leading a meaningful fulfilling life uniquely modern? How many cavemen or Egyptians or middle age serfs were running around saying "Boy I need more experiences to give my life meaning"? Maybe we have amazing lives and because we are human beings we are always looking for more.
- GFischer 13y ago
  "How many cavemen or Egyptians or middle age serfs were running around saying "Boy I need more experiences to give my life meaning"?" They did. We don't have recordings on the cavemen, but in the Middle Ages you had people becoming monks, joining the Crusades, etc..
ececconi 13y ago
You know, I don't see the career ascent about forgetting my own life. I see it as a way I can do good for this world. If I have people under my span of control, I can impart what I believe to be good in this world as a part of my leadership and management style. I also want to be a motivational speaker when I 'grow up'. I came from humble beginnings. Some people's talks have really changed my life. In order to give those talks and be invited to speak, yes you have to ascend the established social order. Am I wasting my life by working a lot? No. The things I work so hard for have real effects in this world. My mom has been working for over 40 years of her life. If I do things right, she'll be able to retire eventually. Do I work harder than other people do for the same, or less, compensation? I'm sure I do. But you know what, you have to make the best of the situation you're in. I was recently invited to give my first talk. Here is the abridged executive summary: http://www.evernote.com/shard/s34/sh/9a92bf45-27e1-4470-be7e-4aca3aba5cac/4a5fdbf41d26cb91d0aa5cff7b093f96 http://www.evernote.com/shard/s34/sh/9a92bf45-27e1-4470-be7e...
- fudged71 13y ago
  >>I don't see the career ascent about forgetting my own life. I see it as a way I can do good for this world. If I have people under my span of control, I can impart what I believe to be good in this world as a part of my leadership and management style. I'm saving this for later, because I love it. Thank you.
  - ececconi 13y ago
    thanks for the comment
foobarqux 13y ago
This essay isn't particularly good. "The Abolition of Work" and "Quitting the Paint Factory" are both much better essays on the same topic. http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm http://paulbe.dreamwidth.org/961.html http://paulbe.dreamwidth.org/961.html
EGreg 13y ago
One link: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/
ezolotko 13y ago
Buk, you are great when you are a farmer's son. But then, when you take your first job, then second, and then you start to think about art of yours, and then you drink more, and then you found a firm with the best friends of yours, and then you quit because one of them start to bully you in a pursuit of power, and then you go to Shanghai to earn your salary in response to a generous proposition - you realize - one thing to do is to work hard, another is to rest; it's up to you to choose. I am choosing hard work, no matter for what's purpose. And that is why I love you, Buk.
collinvandyck76 13y ago
The early part of my career was spent chasing everything, and ironically, it was when I had the least amount of money. In 1998 I got my first job and immediately got a nice apartment in which to live and a decent car to get around. Even with these somewhat reasonable purchases I was already butting up against what I could afford. And by afford, I mean how much money I had. Soon enough the credit card debt slipped in and I was trapped. Trapped by my debt and all of the obligations that went with it. This cycle did not stop until I was making a bit more money and finally got serious about saving and investing. When this happened my other priorities shifted dramatically. I was no longer obsessed about getting the newest / best thing or what have you. I paid off my debts and vowed to from then on always live well beneath my means, which I have. Since that time I’ve never felt trapped. I’m disciplined about long term saving and having at least six months of normal living expenses in the bank. I’ve quit jobs that I simply did not like and later found other jobs that I did. I only regret that I did not do this sooner.
nhangen 13y ago
I have three things to say about this: 1. Many people are horrified by the thought of not being a simple worker bee. They say they want change, but they don't. They want the security of someone else taking care of them. The reason wealth exists is because there are people that cannot live this way, and thus, make their own way. You cannot fault hard working business owners because their employees put themselves in a place to require said employment in order to sustain a life they consider normal. 2. There will always be wealth. If the US gave up capitalism in favor of socialism, the money would be placed in the hands of the whole, and in this case, the government. At that point, the government has the money and the power. We're screwed. 3. Life is suffering. There is no perfection on this realm. Solve this problem and another will follow. This is a symptom of life in samsara. Bukowski recognized this, which is why he talked of a simple life without possessions. If you truly want to break free of 'the man,' you'll have to life a life defined by something other than money, objects, and achievements. For most of us, this is nearly impossible. Middle ground is an illusion.
- brianpgordon 13y ago
  I would reframe #1 in terms of acceptable risk. If you're very risk-averse - for example, if you're raising a family and it is absolutely unacceptable to you to fail financially - then it's difficult to justify giving up the security of regular employment.
  - nhangen 13y ago
    Beyond that, most people just don't have what it takes to do anything else. We romanticism entrepreneurship often, and for good reason. It takes a lot more than wanting to be free of 9-5 bondage in order to be successful, and that's just to get to the point where luck can play a part. I try to share my enthusiasm with others but often meet responses like: 'Must be nice to be so:' talented/lucky/smart/blessed with understanding wife/motivated/etc So in the end, I grew tired of talking and just tried to lead with actions. Most got bored and stopped paying attention.
- AznHisoka 13y ago
  I agree on #3. Solve the money problem, and you'll then lament about the sex problem.
anactofgod 13y ago
I enjoy Bukowski's work. But the insights he shares in this letter are tempered by the fact that he didn't quit his job at the Post Office until after a would-be patron "employed" him to write. Still... Some people never go crazy...
cafard 13y ago
One of the scoutmasters of my troop, 45 years ago, was a warehouseman. I doubt that his job was exciting. I imagine he took some satisfaction in doing it well. I suspect that his true satisfaction came from his family and community. I have relatives and shirttail relatives who never attended or never finished college and have worked at blue-collar trades. Some are happy, some aren't, I don't know how many would recognize themselves as emptied out. Some rightly would not. Anthony Trollope spent his working life in the British post office. Having more regular ways than Bukowski, he rose to responsible positions, but he worked steadily. I imagine that the readers of 2113 will mostly rate Trollope higher than Bukowski.
ojbyrne 13y ago
One thing to realize is that Bukowski always considered his full time job to be being a drunk. He just switched his second job from various menial jobs to writing.
agsamek 13y ago
The letter and people here do not get that most people simply want to be told what to do. This gives them main sense of work and accomplishment. This also lays down fundation for creating societies.
taigeair 13y ago
It's my opinion that people live the life they choose. No one is tricking you into it. Who's to say which way of life is right? Some people enjoy the pleasures of material things and stability. Some enjoy risk and experiences. People always are a bit jealous of the other side but probably are happier with the road they chose.
- specialist 13y ago
  1/2 true. I didn't choose... To have my ass kicked, repeatedly, both at home and at school. To be bounced around as a child, moving 28 times before graduating, having 3 foster families To have a grave life threatening illness. To become a young parent (thought I was sterile, but it only takes one, right)? Things I did choose... Somehow avoided drugs. Books and computers, mostly as escapism, lucky me geeks now do well economically. Became a stable parent, deferring my dreams until my son graduated. Always trying to improve my well being, eg exercise, nutrition, seeking new treatments for my diseases, etc. Conclusion... I've been on the streets and in support groups with others who had their choices taken away, didn't have access to the resources and opportunities I had, or simply didn't know they were born awesome and could choose life. And I recognize that many have had things far worse than me. We're all just trying to do the best we know how. So I try not to judge.
nilved 13y ago
What a terrible submission title.

723 points by tantaman 13y ago

zoba 13y ago

They never pay the slaves enough so they can get free, just enough so they can stay alive and come back to work. I do love my job, though there is so much more I want to do with my life - so much more I could do that (as far as I can tell) would really help humanity. Unfortunately I'm locked into working because of student loans and overall cost of living. I try to do work in my free time but sadly 3 hours a night does not build a company with enough revenue to grant me freedom. By the time I've earned enough from my job to afford not having a job I worry I'll have moved on to a different life stage where kids will take up my evenings. I know I'm not the only talented, driven 20-something in this situation and with student loans recently so high, it is a pity to think that overall out generation will have fewer who are able to make their ideas real because of it. Thanks to YC for offsetting that effect and helping us believe we can "get free".

bmac27 13y ago
Unfortunately, the modern day tech incubator model serves a very narrow audience with a very limiting set of criteria (e.g. billion dollar markets). There are lots of other people like the gentlemen referenced in the article that simply want to build a self-sustaining income stream. Crowdsourcing is helping to fill that vacuum at least partially; but I think more can be done in this arena to help people escape the awful "Office Space"-like dronework that, unfortunately, is still the norm today.

orofino 13y ago

This goes off the tracks for me about midway through. While for many people the reality described is actually their life, there are many of us (and I'd imagine a huge percentage of those reading this) that aren't slaves. If you're making over 70-80k/year, you have the capacity to save a lot and do the things you want to do before you hit 55, 65, or 75.

hcarvalhoalves 13y ago

Employment is, by definition, exploitation. If the objective of the company is to profit, it has to pay the employee less than the value he generates. The alternative is profiting out of non-internalized costs (e.g., exploiting natural resources).

chii 13y ago
there are other forms of organization out there - a non-profit, "cooperative" organization could and should be the norm. This form of organization means that everyone in the org is an owner, and is paid according to the work they do. There is no fat cat at the top that don't do work but takes in money. I believe in brazil there is a manufacturing company that is like this - each worker gets a slice of the profit.
- walshemj 13y ago
  Sorry worker coops are all about making money but distributing it in a more equitable way with the workers controlling the company. John Lewis makes a profit and the "partners" got 17% of salary as a bonus in FY12/13
- GFischer 13y ago
  Here in Uruguay, we have lots of "cooperatives" (our country has a long socialist story), most work out well, but they come across many of the same problems that faced the old Soviet Union, and you do get "fat cats" at the top regardless of the supposed equality system. http://uruguayeduca.edu.uy/Userfiles/P0001/File/Cooperativismo%20en%20Uruguay.pdf http://uruguayeduca.edu.uy/Userfiles/P0001/File/Cooperativis... We have: - Transport cooperatives - Dairy products cooperative (Conaprole) - Healthcare cooperatives, which serve most of the population ("Mutualistas", based on Mutualism) - An Insurance cooperative - Credit Union cooperatives - Housing cooperatives (those are the ones that worked out for the worst) In many cases, they compete with non-cooperatives. Edit: while they should be equal, even if they get same or slightly better pay, cooperative directors have lots of actual power, which can be turned to money if they so desire (kickbacks, etc...)
ckannan90 13y ago

brianpgordon 13y ago

> What do they do it for? Sex? TV? An automobile on monthly payments? Or children? Children who are just going to do the same things that they did? Hm... abject terror of homelessness.

tankbot 13y ago

Can I just say that I love Charles Bukowski? If you've never read him go buy his books now. There's so much humanity in there. Some will think he's a downer or depressing, but I think he's genius. His life reminds me of this quote by Hokusai: When I was 50 I had published a universe of designs. But all I have done before the the age of 70 is not worth bothering with. At 75 I'll have learned something of the pattern of nature, of animals, of plants, of trees, birds, fish and insects. When I am 80 you will see real progress. At 90 I shall have cut my way deeply into the mystery of life itself. At 100, I shall be a marvelous artist. At 110, everything I create; a dot, a line, will jump to life as never before. Never stop learning, folks.

vineel 13y ago
Are there any specific books you recommend?
- byproxy 13y ago
  Ham on Rye
- tankbot 13y ago
  Run With the Hunted and Love is a Dog from Hell spring to mind, but for me half the fun of reading him is just jumping in randomly. His life was chaos so it's fitting. If you read enough about "Hank" a picture of who he was will start to materialize. Since he's dead and not able to spend your book sales money on booze and horses, he'd probably be ok with you just reading his stuff online for free[0]. He is also great to listen to, there are a lot of recordings of his readings that you can find in the usual places. The poems are filled with a kind of beautiful carnage which contrasts the even tone of his delivery. Like, "Yeah, that crazy shit happened but so what?" One of my favorites as a teaser to start with: Rain a symphony orchestra. there is a thunderstorm, they are playing a Wagner overture and the people leave their seats under the trees and run inside to the pavilion the women giggling, the men pretending calm, wet cigarettes being thrown away, Wagner plays on, and then they are all under the pavilion. the birds even come in from the trees and enter the pavilion and then it is the Hungarian Rhapsody #2 by Lizst, and it still rains, but look, one man sits alone in the rain listening. the audience notices him. they turn and look. the orchestra goes about its business. the man sits in the night in the rain, listening. there is something wrong with him, isn't there? he came to hear the music. [0] http://www.poemhunter.com/charles-bukowski/poems/ http://www.poemhunter.com/charles-bukowski/poems/ p.s. I can't speak for the quality of that site, you may have better luck elsewhere. When I looked up Rain all I got was the first line, so it's possible that other poems have errors.

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seanconaty 13y ago

Wow. Never thought Bukowski would make it on HN, let alone this high.

hnnnnng 13y ago

So beautifully voices exactly what I've been thinking.

Florin_Andrei 13y ago
Beautiful and depressing.

revelation 13y ago

$100 are about $650 in todays money [1]. [1]: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=100%24+from+1969 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=100%24+from+1969

pdx6 13y ago
No. It is $3323. 1oz gold coin price in USD: 1969 40 2013 1362
- ojbyrne 13y ago
  Last I checked, gold makes a poor meal.
- JoeCortopassi 13y ago
  You are taking the value of a tangible asset from 1969 and comparing it to todays value of said tangible asset. This in no way illustrates the inflation rate. All it shows (assuming your numbers are right) is the increase in the perceived value of gold in that time frame. The original comment's $650 number is close enough to be considered accurate
  - baddox 13y ago
    What's the distinction between "perceived value" and just normal value?
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      Maybe poor choice in words, but the point is no one asset can be counted on to directly monitor inflation. Using the gold example- suppose industrial demand for gold to fuel the semiconductor industry tripled the price of gold compared to 1969. Now suppose the price of milk, bread, gasoline, electricity, water, clothing, and alcohol only doubled in price compared to 1969. If inflation is a measure of your purchasing power IN GENERAL (not your purchasing power of gold), inflation was roughly 200%, no? If gold had absolutely no practical value by itself, it would be free of market demands like that in my example. But of course then its value would have no connection to purchasing power, and we're right back where we started.

thinker 13y ago

Such beautiful words. Love the last line: "To not to have entirely wasted one's life seems to be a worthy accomplishment, if only for myself."

jorgecastillo 13y ago
I am adding this line to my .bashrc file.
- glitch003 13y ago
  -bash: To: command not found

blackhole 13y ago

I feel like too many people get sucked into the idea of furthering their career, to the point that they forget to further their own life. What is the point of existence if we never get around to experiencing it? "It's not the things we do in life that we regret on our death bed, it is the things we do not." - Randy Pausch

deleted 13y ago
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curiousfiddler 13y ago
Makes sense, but I also feel that thinking about the regret-at-death moment is not quite an appropriate motivator - it will anyway be so shortlived.
zobzu 13y ago
and that obviously, not everyone can be promoted to whatever they wanna be promoted to, and thus, the chance of hitting the target is never "good" Same for startups ;-)
_delirium 13y ago
Hence the somewhat curious (and I think, very American) idea of the "Golden Years". If you put your head down and work hard, taking no vacations, until you're age 65, then you flip 180 degrees in the other direction and retire into a life of full-time leisure. So if you live long enough, it really won't be a waste; you cash it in all at the end! A Scandinavian psychologist somewhat recently proposed a typically Scandinavian reversal of this: he suggested people should work to age 80, but work proportionally less in all the years up to there. Basically redirect the pension system to subsidize more early-age vacation and less pension. edit: http://cphpost.dk/business/researcher-advocates-25-hour-working-week-%E2%80%93-until-age-80 http://cphpost.dk/business/researcher-advocates-25-hour-work...
- VexXtreme 13y ago
  > Hence the somewhat curious (and I think, very American) idea of the "Golden Years". If you put your head down and work hard, taking no vacations, until you're age 65, then you flip 180 degrees in the other direction and retire into a life of full-time leisure. So if you live long enough, it really won't be a waste; you cash it in all at the end! And this exact kind of thinking is what the societal overlords want you to subscribe to. Give them the best years of your life to get a degree of freedom later in your life, when the freedom won't matter anymore anyway, cause you'll be pissing in your diapers and be limited to a very small subset of things a healthy young person can do. I see it this way: when you're retired and old, the overall potential of what you can do with your life is much lower than that of when you were in your 20s and 30s. Why is that? Because an old person with the same amount of time and money can do much less with those resources than a young person. When you live your life like a run off the mill robot, living your life according to a set of societal expectations and rules set by other people, what's the point of such a life anyway? PS. OP, I wasn't addressing you, in case you feel I've attacked your point, I am just furthering it :)

morgante 13y ago

Reminds me how lucky I (we?) are to be free of the monotonous prison of every day life which most Americans are stuck in.

enraged_camel 13y ago
Who is "we"?
- morgante 13y ago
  In general, most developers have a lot of freedom in employment and can probably escape it given a little planning.
nanidin 13y ago
I'm there now and I don't know what to do with my life...
nilved 13y ago
If that helps you get by, believe what you what!

Casseres 13y ago

Today, too many people have jobs to support their lifestyles, not their lives. People end up working to continue making monthly payments on houses larger than they need, cars fancier than they need, and they won't be able to fully enjoy those things because they're always working 9-5. Today, we are a lot further along than we were 50 years ago. People aren't working in factories to put bread on the table, people are working in offices to pay for their next new car or big screen TV. My goal is to make as much money as I can as fast as I can so that instead of trying to become the next billionaire, I can stop working and become the next great thinker. I value knowledge and happiness over money.

Afforess 13y ago
People buy things they can't afford, with money that they don't have, to impress people that they don't like I realized I could live off of $25000/yr and maintain a modestly comfortable lifestyle at the same time. I am on track to retire before I am 40. Anyone can do it. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-...
- javert 13y ago
  If I may ask, where do you live? Do you have family to support? I am under the assumption I could do it a lot cheaper if I were to choose not to have a family and to live in rural or semi-rural North Carolina. (Edit: I picked North Carolina becuase that's where I already am.)
  - Afforess 13y ago
    No, Raleigh NC.
    - javert 13y ago
      Thanks for the response, and wow, we are actually very close geographically. I'm surprised that you came up with $25,000.

16s 13y ago

I'm glad he made it out, but that's a sad story. When you stop and think about what he's saying, it's depressing. And, it's true.

dnautics 13y ago

I don't happen to believe the wage system is slavery (I do happen to believe we have a modern slavery system, but that's another story) "They never pay the slaves enough so they can get free, just enough so they can stay alive and come back to work." But then why don't the slaves leave? Unlike in the past, nobody is holding a gun to their head. One possibility, probably popular among entrepreneurial types, is the slaves don't leave, because they don't think they can leave. It's a problem that is easily solved! All the boring types need is a little bit of education, for them to learn that leaving is possibility. But maybe, what scares us a little bit, is that maybe the slaves don't want to leave. They value that security that the boring life brings them (that is why they complain "it ain't right" - because they have lost something they really valued). This is the really scary thing, because we don't want to be boring but we could see ourselves making the same choice. At the same time we don't understand the choice of the slaves to not leave, we identify with it at a level that we maybe can't explain. But is it a wrong choice? Who are we to judge others for choosing security over wealth or self-exploration? Maybe we are at a knife edge- a little bit less motivation here, a marginal preference there, a taste of failure here, and we, too, would pick security over wealth (of money, of intellect, of experience). I think that the strange paternalistic attitude of the passage is a result of the fear - the fear of that condition.

scott_karana 13y ago
I think it's more a metaphorical "leave", as in "leave the rat race". Most people know they can leave their job, but leaving a chosen career path is a lot harder, especially for a less educated person, and particularly for blue collar workers. What are they supposed to do? Quit without savings and try to change careers? (That's the feeling, anyways. Not sure what the answer is.)
- dnautics 13y ago
  Well I've quit without savings (ok, with one month's savings) twice. Both times I had friends who were kind enough to help take care of me until I could find a job. I'm about to quit (with two month's savings), and there is a strong possibility I'll change careers. It's certainly possible. I do think people generally lack the courage to try, but even that is besides my point. I think if even if people did have the courage, most would not WANT to. The don't want to leave the rat race, even though they hate it, because the security is what they crave.

jusben1369 13y ago

I was struck by the fact that it was written in 1969 yet is incredibly contemporary. Will we lament the same things in 2060?

chii 13y ago
i would say yes, because the human condition hardly ever changes.

DanielBMarkham 13y ago

I support and understand what he's saying, but I think too many times we set up this false choice between "pursuing our dreams" and "working for the man" There's honor -- and authenticity -- in making choices for your life that involve working in the system. I used to look down on those who worked jobs they hated and would say things like "That's just not for me. I don't know how you can do it." until one day somebody took me aside and pointed out what an insulting and condescending attitude I had. I was being a jerk, a well-paid, able-to-pick-what-I-want-to-do jerk. Other people did not have the same lives or face the same choices as I did. I should respect their uniqueness and decisions -- even if they loudly and publicly complained about them. I have learned that for myself it is too easy to go off on a wild tangent about how one lifestyle is so much better than another, talking about slavery and such, just like in this letter. Basically I was being a judgmental prick, substituting my values for other people's and then declaring that my choices and values were best for everybody. I finally realized that the quality of life is something each of us owns through our own personal choices. So I don't do that anymore.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
That other people don't have a choice in doing that jobs they complain about doesn't mean there is "honour" in that. It's degrading to be forced into doing something you see no value in. And what does "authenticity" even mean in this context? There is authenticity and uniqueness in the things people do despite their soul killing jobs, but what's authentic about, say, selling your body? I find this just as condescending, sorry: If those people complain, i.e. if they say it sucks for them, then it sucks for them. Talking about authenticy and uniqueness, and pretending they have much a of a choice, is respecting a strawman (i.e. decisions they never got to make), while disrespecting their actual situation.
epo 13y ago
My God, could you be any more complacent or condescending? Could you have comprehended the letter less? You are, in your own words, still being a jerk, just a self-righteous one. And no, you didn't understand a single thing he wrote. Most people have no real choice in their work, except in the technical sense of one shitty job versus another. Most people don't "own their lives", their lives are dictated to them. To dismiss those lives as it being them having made a personal choice (the implication presumably being that they could have chosen to be a VC or a surgeon) is contemptible.

enraged_camel 13y ago

>>You know my old saying, "Slavery was never abolished, it was only extended to include all the colors." Some people balk at the idea of "wage slavery," primarily because they think it is so different from the traditional slavery that it should not be called that. But the question is, if you are doing something and the alternative is starvation and death, are you really a free human being? If you think about it for a while, the answer becomes clear: you are not free. Sure, you have the freedom to switch from one slave-owner to another, but at no point in the process do you have real freedom.

philwelch 13y ago
There's no state of nature where people are free from starvation without having to work. Even hunters and gatherers have to hunt and gather.
- teeja 13y ago
  From what I've read, the hunter-gatherers still on Earth have to work about 2 hours each day. For everything. Of course they don't have all the fancy toys. Or the worries and medications. Running away from an existence you've never really been given time to understand. Bukowski's right about how it empties you out. But unless you're lucky as him, few options have been left you. The land's all owned, and the "hunting" is long-gone. In the end, only the market is free. Until the day you drop it and turn away.
  - tomp 13y ago
    > the hunter-gatherers still on Earth have to work about 2 hours each day That's because they live in low numbers in tropical climates, where food is plentiful throughout the year and shelter is never needed.
- dsbmac 13y ago
  This is true but the work that they do, they or their families will benefit 100%. "Free labor". It is honest equitable work. The system in place siphons that labor by people who control capital. Income inequality.

stuff4ben 13y ago

I'm not sure the alternative is any better as a startup founder/employee. You're putting in greater amounts of hours, blood, sweat, and tears for less money in a lot of cases. Sometimes it pays off, oftentimes it doesn't. Bear in mind I speak as a corporate wage-slave whose company just announced layoffs after a "record quarter". The answer must be to win the lottery, maybe I should start playing...

wwweston 13y ago

I've been at my current full-time job a bit over a year. The previous six years were a mix of freelance, contract, and startup work -- sometimes full-time, sometimes way-more-than-full-time, and sometimes not at all... but usually part-time. There are some things I like about the current job, and if I stick around at least another six months, I'll likely play a key role in overhauling the front end of a major automaker's website using state-of-the art. Not a bad feather to stick in a cap. On the other hand, the chances that I'll do anything else in the meanwhile seem pretty slim. I notice in the last year alone, my energy for original/personal projects is diminished, I feel less creative/thoughtful in general -- and arguably even less interesting than during the aforementioned freelance period. I do feel, as Bukowski put it, somewhat emptied out by my work. It's possible what I really need is a different full-time gig, since I have been in some full-time situations that felt energizing. But I'm starting to be convinced that when I'm hiring myself out part-time, I stay more personally grounded and sharper as far as my general skills and strength in the field goes. Unfortunately, steady skilled part-time employment seems to be considerably more difficult to find than full-time.

djim 13y ago

i sold my startup about 3 months ago, and immediately starting looking for another job. after a couple months, a couple interesting but-not-exciting offers, and one interview process that ended in me not getting an offer, i finally took a worthy vacation. while on a boat in the caribbean, a couple things occurred to me: (1) i really don't need to work for the next ~10 years (2) in that time, i will likely stumble on another opportunity similar to the previous one, which has afforded me this financial freedom (3) i am way more interested in learning, exploring, and art than a "real" job, even a job like my previous one, that i particularly enjoyed. (4) i am very fortunate to be in this position, and i really don't want to waste it. so i've been giving this topic some serious thought. to work or not to work? that is the question.

davros 13y ago
My experience is that reaching a 'work-optional' state is not the easy transition most would think it. I recommend that you search for a meaningful goal and get to work on it, drifting is dangerous.
mingmecca 13y ago
Well, based on my experience you definitely want to 'work', but work on things that fulfill you in some way. Hopefully your startup sale allows you to never again be dependent on the The Man, so if you're tasked with something onerous and/or stupid, you can simply walk away.
pyoung 13y ago
I am currently taking a sabbatical of sorts after slaving away and saving up for 5 years. I threw most of my savings into index funds, and then set up automatic withdrawals to my savings account. This forces me to try and live within a certain budget. If all goes well (i.e. market stays healthy), I will have only spent down a small amount of my savings by the time I return to the labor force. In the mean time, I have been taking some coursera classes, toying with some side projects, and doing some R&R. I highly recommend it for people who can afford to do this.
- decadentcactus 13y ago

trustfundbaby 13y ago

"A man can never drink his fill by waiting in line for the tap" That quote motivates me everyday, because it reminds me that the things I want in life will never be achieved by working at a place in any capacity where the choice of my continued employment lies in the hands of any one person.

blacksqr 13y ago

Bukowski = automatic upvote

rooshdi 13y ago

Sad reality, but one hopes we finally crack the code, so to speak, within our lifetimes.

sspiff 13y ago

He seems to speak of the supervisor of the packers as someone who is above the working life, but the fact is that he is trapped for life as well, he just happens to be trapped one sport higher on a very long ladder. I figure this being trapped is a sentiment a lot of people share, although I know of a significant minority of people who enjoy their jobs and lives, even after 30 years of "paycheck slavery". The whole story reminds me of the song Factory by Bruce Springsteen.

20130816 13y ago

> In 1969, publisher John Martin offered to pay Charles Bukowski $100 each and every month for the rest of his life, on one condition: that he quit his job at the post office and become a writer. this makes me think of basic income, which might be one approach to ending wage slavery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

goggles99 13y ago

This guy worked at a bunch of "shitty" jobs. I think he would be better served advocating that people get a good education and perhaps end up doing something that they actually enjoy. Sorting mail and packing lighting fixtures sucks... Don't force your reality on the rest of us Hank.

LekkoscPiwa 13y ago

Interesting fact: 100usd in 1969 bought you nearly 3 ounces of gold. Price of gold today is 1350usd. Today's value of 100usd in 1969 would be about $4k. Not bad at all.

GFischer 13y ago
100 USD from 1969 would be equivalent to 636 USD today. So it would have been a great buy, but you have to take inflation into account. Also, 100 USD from 1969 invested in the stock market (S&P 500) in 1969 would have given you 5403 USD from 2013 today, so buying those ounces wouldn't even have been the best investment. Almost any solid investment over 50 years would give absurd returns. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ Edit: source for the S&P quote: http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm http://www.moneychimp.com/features/market_cagr.htm
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  In my book equating for inflation is simply representing price in gold. I.e. did you know that the oil price for the past 50 years is the same if you use gold to measure it? Flat line. The same goes for the cost of living, etc. Salaries are down though. Here is your inflation. Gold isn't an investment. Gold is just a currency that can't be created out of thin air. It represents energy and labor needed to get it out of the ground. Currently the mining cost is about $1,200 with gold price about $1,300. That's why looks worse than S&P the price is as low as the production cost at the moment. If you are interested in the real inflation rate, I'd advise to use formula that was last used by the US Government in 1980s in Reagan years. By that formula the current inflation is at 10%. In 1990s the Government added a lot of absurdities to the formula confusing technological progress with inflation hence the official inflation is non-existent while the average healthcare premium is up from 5 to 20% every year not to even mention about the cost of necessities like gas, food, energy, all the result of doubling monetary base by the FED in 2008-2012 to rescue zombie banks.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

"They never pay the slaves enough so they can get free, just enough so they can stay alive and come back to work." I suspect the author is being intentionally misleading regarding the costs of staying alive. It doesn't take $20,000/year. More like $5,000, and even that is being generous. Early Retirement Extreme and other books cover this in more detail, of course. I do agree with the overall sentiment of his article, but the concept that the current state of affairs is some kind of intentional conspiracy is incorrect. People like the security of being indebted and forced to work, it seems. They are not forced into such a life.

nickthemagicman 13y ago

IS even the question of leading a meaningful fulfilling life uniquely modern? How many cavemen or Egyptians or middle age serfs were running around saying "Boy I need more experiences to give my life meaning"? Maybe we have amazing lives and because we are human beings we are always looking for more.

GFischer 13y ago
"How many cavemen or Egyptians or middle age serfs were running around saying "Boy I need more experiences to give my life meaning"?" They did. We don't have recordings on the cavemen, but in the Middle Ages you had people becoming monks, joining the Crusades, etc..

ececconi 13y ago

You know, I don't see the career ascent about forgetting my own life. I see it as a way I can do good for this world. If I have people under my span of control, I can impart what I believe to be good in this world as a part of my leadership and management style. I also want to be a motivational speaker when I 'grow up'. I came from humble beginnings. Some people's talks have really changed my life. In order to give those talks and be invited to speak, yes you have to ascend the established social order. Am I wasting my life by working a lot? No. The things I work so hard for have real effects in this world. My mom has been working for over 40 years of her life. If I do things right, she'll be able to retire eventually. Do I work harder than other people do for the same, or less, compensation? I'm sure I do. But you know what, you have to make the best of the situation you're in. I was recently invited to give my first talk. Here is the abridged executive summary: http://www.evernote.com/shard/s34/sh/9a92bf45-27e1-4470-be7e-4aca3aba5cac/4a5fdbf41d26cb91d0aa5cff7b093f96 http://www.evernote.com/shard/s34/sh/9a92bf45-27e1-4470-be7e...

fudged71 13y ago
>>I don't see the career ascent about forgetting my own life. I see it as a way I can do good for this world. If I have people under my span of control, I can impart what I believe to be good in this world as a part of my leadership and management style. I'm saving this for later, because I love it. Thank you.
- ececconi 13y ago
  thanks for the comment

foobarqux 13y ago

This essay isn't particularly good. "The Abolition of Work" and "Quitting the Paint Factory" are both much better essays on the same topic. http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm http://deoxy.org/endwork.htm http://paulbe.dreamwidth.org/961.html http://paulbe.dreamwidth.org/961.html

EGreg 13y ago

One link: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/

ezolotko 13y ago

Buk, you are great when you are a farmer's son. But then, when you take your first job, then second, and then you start to think about art of yours, and then you drink more, and then you found a firm with the best friends of yours, and then you quit because one of them start to bully you in a pursuit of power, and then you go to Shanghai to earn your salary in response to a generous proposition - you realize - one thing to do is to work hard, another is to rest; it's up to you to choose. I am choosing hard work, no matter for what's purpose. And that is why I love you, Buk.

collinvandyck76 13y ago

The early part of my career was spent chasing everything, and ironically, it was when I had the least amount of money. In 1998 I got my first job and immediately got a nice apartment in which to live and a decent car to get around. Even with these somewhat reasonable purchases I was already butting up against what I could afford. And by afford, I mean how much money I had. Soon enough the credit card debt slipped in and I was trapped. Trapped by my debt and all of the obligations that went with it. This cycle did not stop until I was making a bit more money and finally got serious about saving and investing. When this happened my other priorities shifted dramatically. I was no longer obsessed about getting the newest / best thing or what have you. I paid off my debts and vowed to from then on always live well beneath my means, which I have. Since that time I’ve never felt trapped. I’m disciplined about long term saving and having at least six months of normal living expenses in the bank. I’ve quit jobs that I simply did not like and later found other jobs that I did. I only regret that I did not do this sooner.

nhangen 13y ago

I have three things to say about this: 1. Many people are horrified by the thought of not being a simple worker bee. They say they want change, but they don't. They want the security of someone else taking care of them. The reason wealth exists is because there are people that cannot live this way, and thus, make their own way. You cannot fault hard working business owners because their employees put themselves in a place to require said employment in order to sustain a life they consider normal. 2. There will always be wealth. If the US gave up capitalism in favor of socialism, the money would be placed in the hands of the whole, and in this case, the government. At that point, the government has the money and the power. We're screwed. 3. Life is suffering. There is no perfection on this realm. Solve this problem and another will follow. This is a symptom of life in samsara. Bukowski recognized this, which is why he talked of a simple life without possessions. If you truly want to break free of 'the man,' you'll have to life a life defined by something other than money, objects, and achievements. For most of us, this is nearly impossible. Middle ground is an illusion.

brianpgordon 13y ago
I would reframe #1 in terms of acceptable risk. If you're very risk-averse - for example, if you're raising a family and it is absolutely unacceptable to you to fail financially - then it's difficult to justify giving up the security of regular employment.
- nhangen 13y ago
  Beyond that, most people just don't have what it takes to do anything else. We romanticism entrepreneurship often, and for good reason. It takes a lot more than wanting to be free of 9-5 bondage in order to be successful, and that's just to get to the point where luck can play a part. I try to share my enthusiasm with others but often meet responses like: 'Must be nice to be so:' talented/lucky/smart/blessed with understanding wife/motivated/etc So in the end, I grew tired of talking and just tried to lead with actions. Most got bored and stopped paying attention.
AznHisoka 13y ago
I agree on #3. Solve the money problem, and you'll then lament about the sex problem.

anactofgod 13y ago

I enjoy Bukowski's work. But the insights he shares in this letter are tempered by the fact that he didn't quit his job at the Post Office until after a would-be patron "employed" him to write. Still... Some people never go crazy...

cafard 13y ago

One of the scoutmasters of my troop, 45 years ago, was a warehouseman. I doubt that his job was exciting. I imagine he took some satisfaction in doing it well. I suspect that his true satisfaction came from his family and community. I have relatives and shirttail relatives who never attended or never finished college and have worked at blue-collar trades. Some are happy, some aren't, I don't know how many would recognize themselves as emptied out. Some rightly would not. Anthony Trollope spent his working life in the British post office. Having more regular ways than Bukowski, he rose to responsible positions, but he worked steadily. I imagine that the readers of 2113 will mostly rate Trollope higher than Bukowski.

ojbyrne 13y ago

One thing to realize is that Bukowski always considered his full time job to be being a drunk. He just switched his second job from various menial jobs to writing.

agsamek 13y ago

The letter and people here do not get that most people simply want to be told what to do. This gives them main sense of work and accomplishment. This also lays down fundation for creating societies.

taigeair 13y ago

It's my opinion that people live the life they choose. No one is tricking you into it. Who's to say which way of life is right? Some people enjoy the pleasures of material things and stability. Some enjoy risk and experiences. People always are a bit jealous of the other side but probably are happier with the road they chose.

specialist 13y ago
1/2 true. I didn't choose... To have my ass kicked, repeatedly, both at home and at school. To be bounced around as a child, moving 28 times before graduating, having 3 foster families To have a grave life threatening illness. To become a young parent (thought I was sterile, but it only takes one, right)? Things I did choose... Somehow avoided drugs. Books and computers, mostly as escapism, lucky me geeks now do well economically. Became a stable parent, deferring my dreams until my son graduated. Always trying to improve my well being, eg exercise, nutrition, seeking new treatments for my diseases, etc. Conclusion... I've been on the streets and in support groups with others who had their choices taken away, didn't have access to the resources and opportunities I had, or simply didn't know they were born awesome and could choose life. And I recognize that many have had things far worse than me. We're all just trying to do the best we know how. So I try not to judge.

nilved 13y ago

What a terrible submission title.