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Pirates playing a game dev simulator complain about piracy

551 points by ropiku 13y ago

epsylon 13y ago
It reminds me of the way From Software dealt with people who tried playing Dark Souls before official release: the player received in-game invasions of overpowered black phantoms who he has absolutely no chance whatsoever of beating.
tpetrina 13y ago
This is just pure gold. When I was younger, I always pirated stuff because I didn't have the money nor the means. But today, my Steam collection is worth over a 1000 dollars and I buy more games I could play. It hurts me when people my age (27) don't consider buying stuff they like. I mean, you are paying the creators of the stuff you like so that they can create more of it. No one wants to work for free, why should we expect others to do it? Just because there is zero cost to digitally copy something doesn't mean that it was made with zero cost.
- andyhmltn 13y ago
  It would be very interesting to see the age demographic of people that pirate this kind of thing. I used to pirate (allegedly) stuff when I was a kid too.
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
  > When I was younger, I always pirated stuff because I didn't have the money nor the means. But today... That's a familiar story, and a win all-round. It is said to be a main reason why Microsoft was very relaxed about pirated copies of Windows - young people who run a pirated copy of windows grow up to be workers who know windows and the business buys a seat (as they say).
  - willvarfar 13y ago
    That's a very long-term game; most games are made by short-term studios who don't survive long enough to reap what they sowed?
    - SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
      > > But today, my Steam collection is worth over a 1000 dollars > That's a very long-term game; Maybe, but it is working for some. The players who are copying today will be (largely) the ones who are buying in a few years time. The ones who are buying today are like the grandparent poster.
- bobsy 13y ago
  As your steam collection cannot be resold doesn't it now have zero monetary value? I stopped buying games when I realized I don't actually play the games I buy. Some are still in their cellophane wrapper.. I recently signed up to Playstation+. Surprised I didn't do it sooner. £40 a year. Access to 10+ games a month to download and keep while subscription is active. Not going to buy another game for a long while.
  - LordIllidan 13y ago
    I have the same problem - I think it's down to impulse buys.. I have a lot of games on Steam I've never got down to playing as I've no time!
  - tpetrina 13y ago
    Why would I have to calculate the future sale of any game I buy into the price I pay for the game? I pay for the games so that the developers can continue making games I like for me. Do you want to play more games from the creators of the games you've played and liked? I too have a large collection of games that I will probably never play or finish. Doesn't matter though.
- bni 13y ago
  I think many people, regardless of age, pirate becouse of laziness. Such a simple thing as having to fetch your credit card from your wallet, installing and registering on a game download service (such as GoG, Steam). If you are used to torrenting, if that is you normal way to get stuff like TV shows and movies, there is less _resistance_ to download the cracked version of a game. I dont justify this, or think its good, just pointing it out.
  - tpetrina 13y ago
    Well, Steam is actually more convenient than torrenting. You don't have to search for the correct torrent, test it, trust it, and so on. Find a game, pay it, download it, play it.
- belorn 13y ago
  Quick question: Would you have bought games on steam over $1000 if the steam services would had been a bad one? Or to put it in a other way, how much of that $1000 is thanks to steams services, convenience and marketing? Many people claim, including the CEO of steam, that steam is not competing with pirates. People pay for the services, which in turn get partially sent to developers to create more content to be used in the service.
  - tpetrina 13y ago
    I think that convenience wins over pirating. Just recently I bought Far Cry 3 after finishing the pirated version. What I discovered is that having DRM in the normal, paid version is completely annoying. I would gladly pay for any service which offers one-click media consumption regardless if it was about games, movies, music, comics or some other.
- vy8vWJlco 13y ago
  (Sidestepping "has cost" vs "is worth.") It sounds like you are saying "do as I say, not as I did." You choose to pay now, but not paying made sense for you in the past. I'd like to see everyone have the same opportunity. I think that's the essence of digital capitalism. No copyright needed, IMHO.
  - sp332 13y ago
    Copyright is still useful, say for someone who rips off your game and sells it as their own. I'd agree the extent it's been taken to is ridiculous though.
- lilsunnybee 13y ago
  Hoping this was meant to be ironic. You pirated in the past when you didn't have the means but started paying when you could pirate instead. Sounds perfect to me. Oh wait ... unless the game devs made a bunch of baseless assumptions that all pirates are lazy yuppies who have the cash for games but choose to pirate instead just to spite game developers.
D9u 13y ago
Interesting article, even though I rarely play electronic games, except the free games in the FreeBSD ports tree.
xmjw 13y ago
Great article! If you get paid to produce software for a living, it strikes me as pretty crazy to happily rip-off other people's work.
FuzzyDunlop 13y ago
It's a bit of a stretch to complain that so many people 'stole' the game when they put their own cracked copy on BitTorrent.
- Filligree 13y ago
  Oh, really? Someone else would have done the same, and you know it. I think this strategy was brilliant.
- kolinko 13y ago
  This would happen anyway.
mokash 13y ago
Wow, this is brilliant. One of the biggest complaints that pirates have is DRM. If a game is DRM free then why not purchase it? Especially if you really like it and it's only $8! Great post guys, good luck.
- danielweber 13y ago
  People are still complaining about them all over this page, though.
claudius 13y ago
I haven’t bought any game released after 2004[0] – simply because in my opinion, gameplay has suffered a lot lately. I can recall spending years building stuff in Pharao when I was a kid and recently had a lot of fun (months!) playing Patrician II/III, bought from GOG. Where are these games nowadays? [0] The latest game I bought on Steam was Counter Strike: Source, mostly because it was on sale and bundled up with some other stuff that actually works on my computer.
- citricsquid 13y ago
  Have you tried Minecraft? There are players racking up thousands of hours with it.
  - Filligree 13y ago
    Me being one of them. :-) Base minecraft isn't that great, though some people seem to like it. Add on a pack like Feed the Beast, though, and it gets really interesting - I'm working my way up the tech tree in Mindcrack at the moment.
  - ropiku 13y ago
    Exactly. I'm a big Minecraft and FeedTheBeast(mod packs) fan. And the game keeps getting updated and mods get more and more complex.
  - claudius 13y ago
    I have to admit, no(, not yet). Probably mostly because I was happily mudding away when it first came out and caused this big hype with people playing it in lecture theatres etc. Judging from past experience, I will probably get to it around 2020 :\
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    I'm surprised to see this suggestion here. While minecraft has a lot going for it, I don't know if I would call any of it 'gameplay'. You wander/dig around and find shiny rocks, and while there are monsters the combat system is pretty awful and quickly abandoned. The fun is in building and in mods, rather than anything in the basic survival mode. Heck, it barely qualifies as a game by having any goals, and it didn't even have that for a year.
johncagula 13y ago
http://www.kopimi.com/kopimi/ http://www.kopimi.com/kopimi/
- jarofgreen 13y ago
  What's the distinction between this and Creative Commons, or other such licenses?
  - johncagula 13y ago
    this is not so much a license as it is an imperative. proliferation of data without boundary... 'other such licenses' have structure about them that limit what can be done with them
onli 13y ago
The irony is great. But I fear it is possible that wasn't such a good idea. Given the graphs, there were 4k people interested in the game. Over 90% of them now have the impression that the game is unplayable long-term because of the message-box. Maybe many of them get the hint, but those who don't might generate bad pr and prevent others from buying it. But well, maybe that article combined with answers to the complaining players will spread the word wide enough. At least that now makes the game known.
- citricsquid 13y ago
  This article is going to be covered by all major gaming press by the end of the day, it will have hundreds of thousands of page views and probably result in thousands of sales just from "that's so funny I'm going to buy it just to support you!" so while in isolation you might be right that it would reduce sales the marketing value of this post is going to be many orders of magnitude more than the negative experience reports.
  - NamTaf 13y ago
    Guilty as charged. Going to install it and give it a whirl after I finish my exam tonight. It'll be a good break from Dota I guess!
  - belorn 13y ago
    Sad but true. This could have been an excellent case to see the impact that those who pirate games have in creating buzz and influence those that do pay rather than pirate. The trouble is to get social research people to observe this without media influencing the result.
  - shawndumas 13y ago
    Yes, I just bought the game out of a sense of good 'karma'...
- micheljansen 13y ago
  My thoughts exactly. The pie chart towards the end should scare off anyone willing to try this: if 93.6% of users who played the game on the first day after release got a shitty experience, it means that at least 93.6% of feedback is going to be negative (or more, because people are more likely to provide feedback when they are unhappy than when they are satisfied). Still think it's a great idea, and I love the irony (especially since it's a game dev simulator), but if I were them I would have put a timed delay on the pirate punishment.
algorias 13y ago
While I think this is a very clever idea, it's also somewhat dishonest. In the game world, pirates cause studios to go bankrupt. In the real world, the causal link is not as clear. People arguing that piracy is ruining gamedev routinely ignore the fact that those who pirate don't necessarily have the means to buy many games; their choice is purely between pirating and not playing. Of those 90% or more who pirate the game, it's probably less than 10% who can be persuaded to actually buy it. Anyway, I'm curious to see how this attempt unfolds.
- eropple 13y ago
  > People arguing that piracy is ruining gamedev routinely ignore the fact that those who pirate don't necessarily have the means to buy many games And people who defend pirates routinely ignore that pirated products are also pirated by people who will take what they want for free if they can, because they can. Don't pretend to a higher level of intellectual honesty or moral strength. Your position can lay claim to neither.
  - epsylon 13y ago
    Yep, I've always found ridiculous when pirates claim they don't have the financial means to buy a $3 game to play on their $600 smartphone with a $30 per month data plan.
    - kefka 13y ago
      Hmm. I "love" your inflated numbers. I paid $75 for my iphone 3GS. I bought it from some dude that had to buy the iphone 4 when it came out. I then proceeded to jailbreak and unlock the phone to run any software and use any carrier. I then got onto a carrier that charges $30 for unlimited phone/text/data ~ family mobile. And I don't buy any app at all. I'll save my money for tangible things instead.
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    I'm not sure you're actually disagreeing with the post you replied to. People that take things because they're free end up downloading things they're not particularly interested in and may never even watch/play. Those people aren't potential customers. This isn't a moral issue at heart, it's about the impact of piracy on sales.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
Actually that post made me want to buy the game.
JonnieCache 13y ago
Yesterday I bought some mp3s legally off amazon. They were 128 kbit/s. I deleted them out of rage/spite and ordered the CD, which is out of print and so all the money went to a second hand record dealer. If only I'd had recourse to piracy in that instance!
- SG- 13y ago
  I was under the impression Amazon used 256Kbit VBR?
  - sp332 13y ago
    It's inconsistent. Some of the tracks are ripped with lame -V0 which is the very best quality you will ever see in an MP3 file. Others are not so good.
- lucian1900 13y ago
  Although in almost all cases 128kbps is just fine and you couldn't tell the difference.
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    In no case is that true for MP3. The difference between 128 and 160 kbits is painfully obvious.
    - spmurrayzzz 13y ago
      Agreed. It may be that my previous experience as a session drummer has influenced me here, but anyone that has challenged me in the past to point out the difference between 128 and above received the same statement each time: "listen to the cymbals, man". Cymbal wash is enough for me to never pay a dime for 128 kbits tracks.
      - StavrosK 13y ago
        That's exactly how I tell the difference too, and I'm no drummer. It just sounds horrible.
qznc 13y ago
I try a cracked version, if there is no free demo available. This particular game does have a demo, though. If you do not want to go down the DRM route, this approach of publishing your own cracked version is probably best. A at least you have a little control, since you can make subtly change [0] the experience for crack users (very punny ;). I agree with the author that convenience is a big factor. If it easier to download a cracked version compared to paying the developer, there is a problem. Since we are on HN, how about a service which helps game devs to put their games on as many stores (Steam,Desura,Ubuntu,Play,Apple,etc) as possible? It is probably a lot of work for single person devs. A little fee upfront and a percentage of the income, so it is a pretty quick buck for the game dev. [0] http://thepiratebay.is/torrent/6617784/No_Time_To_Explain_Windows_tinyBuildGAMES http://thepiratebay.is/torrent/6617784/No_Time_To_Explain_Wi...
Dylan16807 13y ago
This is pretty amusing but it sounds like the piracy model in the game is pretty unrealistic. A high level of piracy is typical, and while it can hurt games it doesn't destroy them.
- talmir 13y ago
  You have numbers/references to support your assumption that piracy never destroys games/game developers?
kenkam 13y ago
Slightly unrelated to the original point of the article: has anyone heard of Kairosoft and Game Dev Story [0]? It's ironic the OP wrote an article about irony. Having said that, it looks like they have elements not seen in GDS, but the premise is similar enough. [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Dev_Story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Dev_Story
- krichman 13y ago
  The screenshot is basically a direct copy of Game Dev Story down to the perspective.
- bromagosa 13y ago
  Some anti-piracy zealots would dare to say they pirated their game idea from someone else.
- mcintyre1994 13y ago
  They claim that was their inspiration, but the gameplay is very different. [0] I don't think we can judge that from the screenshot. [0]: http://leviathyn.com/games/pc/2012/12/04/interview-greenheart-games-about-their-upcoming-sim-game-dev-tycoon/ http://leviathyn.com/games/pc/2012/12/04/interview-greenhear...
- stefs 13y ago
  he's been accused of copying kairosoft's game a couple of times already, you can read his response here (he's ppakl): http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1cn8yi/game_dev_tycoon_essentially_an_updated_game_dev/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1cn8yi/game_dev_tycoo... yes, they've been inspired by it but "their version" does have different and more complex gameplay mechanics. a lot of people like greenhearts take on the subject more. i've played neither, but i guess i'll give game dev tycoon a try - after not being totally happy with kairosofts ninja village, i guess ghg deserve a chance.
  - kenkam 13y ago
    Ah, I was thinking I can't be the only one thinking that. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I can understand his side of the story. ghg definitely did not "Zyngify" GDS. In any case I'm gonna buy a copy of GDT to see what it's like!
chao- 13y ago
I don't even play games much these days, but I am about to buy a copy of this because the comedy alone was worth eight dollars (and because it runs on Linux!). Maybe it's just funnier to me because I know a few guys who work at an indie game studio. Edit: Not just lauding them on HN, "about to buy" has become "have just bought".
- wcchandler 13y ago
  I'm in a similar boat. I'm thinking of buying the game only to download the pirated version. It sounds quite fun... almost as if the difficulty level is on "God mode."
ledneb 13y ago
I do find myself wondering about audience, here. The product was given pretty good exposure to a "market" of non-paying users. If it were pushed it to markets which give you similar exposure in front of paying users, perhaps you would have a different result? Not to say getting that exposure is easy, but is this also a case of remembering who your customers are? I'm a paying gamer - I don't think I've seen this game for sale until now. I'll check out the demo over lunch :)
anedisi2 13y ago
The painful sting of Serious Sam 3's anti-piracy protection http://www.joystiq.com/2011/12/07/the-painful-sting-of-serious-sam-3s-anti-piracy-protection/ http://www.joystiq.com/2011/12/07/the-painful-sting-of-serio...
workbench 13y ago
Pretty much sums up why so many studios consider the PC an after thought if at all these days. Also how stupid are windows users just downloading "FULL CRACKED WORKING DEFINITELY NO VIRUSES TURN OFF YOUR CHECKER FOR FALSE POSITIVES" in this day and age.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  This is what shocked me in Bitcoin community, btw. Most of them use Windows and forums as means of distributing software. Somebody writes "Here is the new Bitcoin miner release, get it here http://someshadydomain http://someshadydomain - and everybody actually downloads and runs it. And they somehow get by with it.
vacri 13y ago
Linux pirated edition but no linux demo? I guess I'll check it out with the pirated edition then.
logicallee 13y ago
update2, someone replied with a screenshot but non-working link to the comment. attempting to verify. so far could not verify links directly. will attempt to update if I am still within this comment's edit window, otherwise see responses below for the current status. ---- EDIT: it also makes it seem likely to me that the screenshots of users posting on forums were fabricated. they seem a little too good (too ironic, too much like south park) to be true. Googling seems to confirm: http://i.imgur.com/TfxzkrA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TfxzkrA.jpg This is a total hoax! :) Those posts simply don't exist. (As of 11:39 CET on 4/29/2013.) still, south park worthy, I laughed very hard. OP, write satire: not hoax. good luck. -- Original comment: just out of curiosity, I wonder why "A minute after we uploaded it, my torrent client looked like this:" shows a screenshot with 3 torrents that were "Added a day ago" and "Added 18 hours ago". it sure looks like this is a slight exaggeration :)
- citricsquid 13y ago
  The two screenshots are from 2 different forums, the first is Steam community forum and the second is Facepunch. The Facepunch post is here: http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=40453336#post40453336 http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=40453336#post40453336 and the Steam one is probably somewhere in here: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/discussions/134714217 http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/discussion...
  - logicallee 13y ago
    I'm sorry if I'm incredulous. I DO believe that the screenshots show the formating of the forum. It's just that those particular posts were completely fabricated. (e.g. rewriting the source code of a comment in the html source and then taking a screenshot of it.) Just to confirm that Google does index those posts, I picked a random one that wasn't too recent, and could find it without any problem: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22While+we+were+inspired+by+GDS+we+created+our+game+from+scratch+and+the%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22While+we+were+inspired+by... If you find (and don't fabricate) these posts, could you reply with a screenshot and link? Neither link actually brings up anything. You also offer no explanation why "literally ONE MINUTE" after putting his torrents up, his uTorrent screenshot shows a torrent added the day before.
citricsquid 13y ago
Seems to have crashed due to load, mirror: http://www.greenheartgames.com.nyud.net/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/ http://www.greenheartgames.com.nyud.net/2013/04/29/what-happ...
mcintyre1994 13y ago
Clever idea, and genius advertising. Most of your website is down at the moment, but I'm looking forward to getting the demo when it's back up.
serf 13y ago
Cute. You may make sales due to the novelty of the idea getting blogged about, but you'll lose sales and PR due to the majority of your player base having played/used a faulty product. There are still gamers who think that 'Batman: Arkham Asylum' had legitimately broken mechanics, due to a similar action the developers of that game did ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/94524-Arkham-Asylum-Pirates-Get-a-Gimpy-Batman http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/94524-Arkham-Asylu... ). I'm all for punishing pirates , but the unfortunate aspect of this is that you're punishing pirates & all of the possible legitimate customers that the pirate exposes to the game. These people are potential customers , independent siblings, children who can beg their parents to buy the game, whatever, that are witnessing and at worst case experiencing a broken product, and having whatever faith they had in whatever company reduced. I do like what it does to make you think twice about data legitimacy on the ether though. It's nice to be reminded that most of us don't know where that data is coming from.
- b0rsuk 13y ago
  Implementing a copy protection mechanism like this is giving pirates Quad Damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZhzXKMqZBBc#t=1107s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v...
Comkid 13y ago
using always-online DRM to stop piracy: losing the whole of SimCity's customer base using irony to teach pirates not to pirate: priceless
jbrooksuk 13y ago
Hah, this is genius. Love the irony.
xinsight 13y ago
Page was unavailable for me. Cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
teh_web 13y ago
Ok I just baught it. Partly for the interesting (and funny) story, but mostly because it's hell of a game.
shadowmint 13y ago
I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I read most of the article, and was like, hm, I should buy this and support these guys. Then I read: We know this because our game contains some code to send anonymous-usage data to our server. Nothing unusual or harmful. Heaps of games/apps do this and we use it to better understand how the game is played. It’s absolutely anonymous and you are covered by our privacy policy. Mm. Actually, I don't really care if it's covered by your privacy policy, if your game has a cute little 'phone home' sending who-knows-what from my computer off to yours, you can go jump~ Sorry.
- nanidin 13y ago
  You realize that almost all mobile apps dial home with app metrics data right?
  - dchest 13y ago
    So?
- aaronjb 13y ago
  This is how analytics applications work. Almost every website you visit has Google Analytics installed, which sends your data to their servers so that the developer gets a better understanding of their users. Apps aren't an exception, you'll find it in almost all of them. When you install the app it should notify you what is does or doesn't have access to, so things like your phone book and call history are not accessible for the app.
  - jgroome 13y ago
    Veering off topic, but I wonder what people would say if analytics for websites required telling the user what data is being gathered about them before requiring an active opt-in.
    - jarofgreen 13y ago
      No, that's entirely on topic for this particular point. I know and you know this kind of tracking is industry standard because we are in this industry. Most people outside this industry don't know that, and are pretty shocked when they see. Seriously, if you have access to a Google Analytics account with a reasonable amount of data start showing people how much stuff you are tracking and see what their reaction is. Telling OP their "phone home" concerns aren't valid because that's "standard practice" is a terrible argument.
secoif 13y ago
Massive missed opportunity to convert all those pirates into paying users. Instead of focussing on teaching pirates a lesson, they should have set up an in-game option to "pay $x to remove piracy issues from game".
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Millennium 13y ago
The second-quickest way to make someone an enemy is to call him out on his BS (the quickest is to question his opinion on the impact his own actions have had on his life, but that's for another thread).
talmir 13y ago
Wow, this makes me glad I bought the game on day one (after playing the demo and waiting impatiently for a while for the release on windows 8 store :) ).
anonymous 13y ago
Since the devs uploaded the game on bittorrent themselves, isn't it now implicitly legal to share that copy? Obviously not the unaltered copy, but if you upload something to which you own the copyright to bittorrent, you must be either implicitly giving people the right to share it with others, or you're entrapping them into committing a copyright violation. Can the devs then be sued for knowingly tricking people into committing a copyright violation?
- danielweber 13y ago
  > isn't it now implicitly legal to share that copy? That may well be considered giving permission. However, since they are interested in the social aspect, not the legal aspect, that doesn't matter. The social assumption is that a game you get from a torrent is pirated. > Can the devs then be sued for knowingly tricking people into committing a copyright violation? (Ignoring for the nonce that in America you can sue anyone for anything) no. No one got "tricked." No one went out to buy a copy of this game and ended up on the torrent by accident.
- ripter 13y ago
  > Can the devs then be sued for knowingly tricking people into committing a copyright violation? I'm not a lawyer. If it follows entrapment laws then the "violator" would have to prove that they've never pirated before and they were tricked into it by the developers.
foona 13y ago
Anyone has a link to download a liberated proper copy of the game? The one on ThePirateBay appears to be the malicious trojanized fake version described in the article.
- talmir 13y ago
  Really? You are going to ask this here? You can get a proper copy of the game from the developers themselves for eight dollars.
  - foona 13y ago
    After the stunt they pulled? They should consider themselves lucky if nobody sues them for the fraud they perpetrated by misrepresenting their product, the time they caused the public to waste debugging the issue, and the emotional harm of being prevented from enjoying the game. Not that I really care, since the game is not on NFOHump nor RlsLog, which generally means the game sucks so much that nobody bothered releasing it.
    - omegaham 13y ago
      > They should consider themselves lucky if nobody sues them for the fraud they perpetrated by misrepresenting their product Wait, what? Their genuine product is exactly what they said it was. The Pirate Bay version is the "fraud." And that was free. They effectively released a demo.
    - zappbrannigan 13y ago
      Are you a fucking idiot? What fraud did they perpetrate?
tomovo 13y ago
There should be two "achievements" in this game: 1) play the pirated version 2) play the purchased version Give special credit or in-game sales boost to people who get #2 after #1.
csdreamer7 13y ago
Classic! I wonder if the OP could use that 'anonymous' data to determine the region of each player. This would be important for determining how many pirates came from rich countries vs poor.
daralthus 13y ago
Clearly, this is marketing at it's best.
jack_trades 13y ago
So, you just released a game after what was likely a big investment in heart, time, and money and you haven't pulled any money back out yet? Did you expect something different after such a short period of time? Also, you created a game that has pulled in $1600 in revenue so far and you're thinking that $24k worth of revenue is just not coming in because you can measure the freeloaders. Those freeloaders aren't your customers and likely never will be. Focus on why 214 people bought the game and make them so happy that they will support you and the extended marketing of the game. Had you not spent the hours developing, testing, etc. these features and trying to trick worthless freeloaders into exposing themselves for the sake of rhetorical blog posts, you could have improved your bottom line. You COULD have added features important to paying customers. Also, the sad freeloaders posts stink of fabrication. They may well not be, but my cynicism puts together a picture of a hacker-news-abuse viral marketing scheme. Every link in the chain has an unsoiled feel to it. The game is about a game dev company, not FPS gore. The freeloaders write in full sentences and precisely nail talking points as if they came from a game industry association. The dev has taken great care to handle freeloaders gently in the post. exposing everything. Even if this were a marketing scam, the backlash would be ho-hum because everything is just so meek. AND... of course there's an actionable pitch and link thrown right in there. You were supposed to hold back and wait for the crowd to demand links. This game always had a very limited audience. RPG of a gaming software development company? Plan the scale and scope of your project accordingly.
jusben1369 13y ago
Brilliant. Really enjoyed this. Also enjoying this lively thread. There's an awful lot of strange rationalization going on in the comment. For those of you who point out "Hey a lot of those pirated people aren't going to pay anyways!" here's a sobering fact. If just 7% of those pirated copies were paid this developer would have DOUBLED first day sales. Could be the difference between getting to work on their dream, hiring another dev, or calling quits on the whole thing. 7% I have a hard time believing 10% of those pirates are not just cheap, lazy folks who - per the irony of the comments - are the first to squawk if they ever feel short changed in life "The steal because it's easy" is a great way to encourage draconian measures. I'd be a little more fired up if we were inclined to self police than rationalize away.
- jack_trades 13y ago
  I want to respectfully disparage your statement. Doubling zero is zero. Doubling a small amount is likely still a small amount. They need to sell somewhere like 10k units to make this effort worth repeating, let alone a profit model. That means they better get working on getting this in the hands of 150k pirates. 7% of freeloaders is no small or easy task and compare time and energy trying to convert the sinful vs. pandering to the pious. Stop trying to fix culture or people and make a good product that makes life better and/or easier for paying customers. This thread would be a fine place to enumerate the devs and studios that had success converting pirates to payers. That's a short list. Given their platform, you would think progressive crippling of game play hits the correct balance of try before you buy and allowing for player investment to the point where they could be nudged in. Or, why not sell in-game DRM for $8?
  - jusben1369 13y ago
    I respect your argument and approach. "Stop trying to fix culture or people" I think our culture and people generally frown upon stealing given the ramifications it has for all of us if it becomes rampant. So I'm not trying to fix these folks - just point out that the ease with which these goods can be stolen creates this outcome where it gets too much of a free pass.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
J_Darnley 13y ago
No wonder people pirate when the game is advertised at €6.49 but they don't mention until you come to pay that this is without sales tax! It actually costs €7.85.
ripter 13y ago
It seems like they are missing a great chance to get some money from these pirates. DLC. The pirated version of the game offers a DLC to add DRM to your games. It doesn't stop piracy, and can occasionally cause boycots of your game, but it keeps the game playable. Paid players get a game they enjoy, pirates who might buy, might buy a DLC so they can keep playing.
mindstab 13y ago
Is there any irony this game appears like a complete "remake" of Game Dev Story which I have bought and played a ton of? I do agree piracy is bad but I hope if they don't do well they don't just blame pirates. It's incredibly complicated and I don't want to knock their work but I hope they had some evidence there was demand for such a game, beyond the first one that already established some good market share. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Dev_Story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Dev_Story
swinglock 13y ago
It would be interesting to see a follow-up with minutes played by customers and by the pirates instead of only unique users, something that really ought to be included in their statistics. It doesn't justify anything, but I think if we are allowed to speculate pirates being more likely to block the game in a firewall (I agree, it's highly likely that more of them are) I may speculate that pirates are far less likely than a customer that paid money to play the game for more than an hour, total. If the pirate doesn't it was essentially a demo run. Maybe the pirate is downloading just about every game released because it's free and drops it as soon as the next download has finished or just doesn't have the attention span to justify for themselves to buy games. The customers that did so that probably weren't happy with the purchase, even though the price is low, unless the game is advertised as being short. Over 90% users being pirates is depressing, but I think if you look at usage it will be somewhat less so.
unkoman 13y ago
I wouldn't pay for a game dev story clone either. I'd rather play the original.
benjamincburns 13y ago
Whatever he does, I hope that "research DRM" isn't ever an option for the game. Instead, maybe he can make a "leak a cleverly-crafted version of the game to troll pirates and then blog about it" option?
w1ntermute 13y ago
> gave it a description imitating the scene The description looks nothing like the NFOs typically included with scene releases. However, most people don't know what the scene is or what their NFOs look like (or what NFOs are at all), so this clearly wasn't a practical issue. However, my point remains.
b0rsuk 13y ago
Page unavailabel for now. But here's a quote from a forum: """The cracked version is nearly identical to the real thing except for one detail… Slowly their in-game funds dwindle, and new games they create have a high chance to be pirated until their virtual game development company goes bankrupt.""" I haven't played the pamphlet, but it sounds like it's implemented by substracting money from player's in-game funds. This means whenever someone pirates a game in this pamphlet, player loses money. In other words, theft as opposed to a loss of a sale. How cute! I remember a case where someone wrote a script to automatically download a pirated piece of software or a music album. It was linked to a website with a counter. The website owner wanted the developer/musician to bankrupt. The idea was that by downloading the thing enough times, he could make the copyright owner go bankrupt.
ameen 13y ago
The problem as I see it, is that the dev himself uploaded the "gimped version" to the torrent site. Most indie games (unless they're a hit) never make it to TPB or some other place because the game is only available through legitimate sources, and most indie-loving gamers care too much about the developers to casually crack a game and upload it onto some shady torrent site. It's easy to blame inefficiency to piracy. Minecraft was pirated heavily, did Mojang go bankrupt? Gaming has evolved, Games are no longer a product to be packed up and shipped off. Constant updates, content packs, etc (free or otherwise) keep a customer engaged. If someone really likes the game, the lore and whatnot they will pay to get the original game. Heck, I personally know a ton of my classmates buying CoD4 since they couldn't access various multiplayer modded servers. Piracy in general(be it games, movies, or music) is a problem that the content makers need to solve. New and effective services, sources will conquer it - Online streaming music has to an extent, Bollywood has taken warmly to YouTube and uploads ad-supported official HD movies (barely months after they launch). As Gabe Newell said, Piracy is a service problem. It has always been and it always will be.
- rplnt 13y ago
  > ...most indie-loving gamers care too much about the developers to casually crack a game and upload it onto some shady torrent site. You don't need to crack DRM-free game. You can just upload it as is.
  - ameen 13y ago
    My argument was for games in general (regardless of copy protection). There's a ton of decent DRM nowadays.
john_b 13y ago
I wonder if it would be possible to exploit human vanity to reduce piracy amongst those who can afford a game. People do things like buy fancy cars and large houses to signal wealth; perhaps similar forms of social signaling can be incorporated into smaller purchases like videogames to provide a social incentive to purchasing instead of pirating?
bellbind 13y ago
Pirated content is free content: you can't really say that one person pirating your game equals one lost sale. Would have he bought it, if he was given no alternative choice to get it? When the price is null, there are low to no expectations as to how good the product should be, hence there's a lot more people using it. Someone gives you something that has value for free in the street, would you take it? There's a good chance the answer is yes, even if you do need it.
gotrythis 13y ago
One thing to consider, is that the distribution method for the pirated version is very established, accessible, and fast to get the word out. How have they marketed the legit version? Their graph doesn't necessarily mean that 93% of people pirate the game. It more likely means that the reach of the pirated version is much greater than the reach of the legit one.
- gotrythis 13y ago
  And to answer my own question, this news article is how they are marketing the legit version, so it will be interesting to see what those graphs look like after the marketing has done its job.
bobx11 13y ago
You could have made money from the pirates by embedding a bitcoin miner in the app.

551 points by ropiku 13y ago

It reminds me of the way From Software dealt with people who tried playing Dark Souls before official release: the player received in-game invasions of overpowered black phantoms who he has absolutely no chance whatsoever of beating.

tpetrina 13y ago

This is just pure gold. When I was younger, I always pirated stuff because I didn't have the money nor the means. But today, my Steam collection is worth over a 1000 dollars and I buy more games I could play. It hurts me when people my age (27) don't consider buying stuff they like. I mean, you are paying the creators of the stuff you like so that they can create more of it. No one wants to work for free, why should we expect others to do it? Just because there is zero cost to digitally copy something doesn't mean that it was made with zero cost.

andyhmltn 13y ago
It would be very interesting to see the age demographic of people that pirate this kind of thing. I used to pirate (allegedly) stuff when I was a kid too.
SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
> When I was younger, I always pirated stuff because I didn't have the money nor the means. But today... That's a familiar story, and a win all-round. It is said to be a main reason why Microsoft was very relaxed about pirated copies of Windows - young people who run a pirated copy of windows grow up to be workers who know windows and the business buys a seat (as they say).
- willvarfar 13y ago
  That's a very long-term game; most games are made by short-term studios who don't survive long enough to reap what they sowed?
  - SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
    > > But today, my Steam collection is worth over a 1000 dollars > That's a very long-term game; Maybe, but it is working for some. The players who are copying today will be (largely) the ones who are buying in a few years time. The ones who are buying today are like the grandparent poster.
bobsy 13y ago
As your steam collection cannot be resold doesn't it now have zero monetary value? I stopped buying games when I realized I don't actually play the games I buy. Some are still in their cellophane wrapper.. I recently signed up to Playstation+. Surprised I didn't do it sooner. £40 a year. Access to 10+ games a month to download and keep while subscription is active. Not going to buy another game for a long while.
- LordIllidan 13y ago
  I have the same problem - I think it's down to impulse buys.. I have a lot of games on Steam I've never got down to playing as I've no time!
- tpetrina 13y ago
  Why would I have to calculate the future sale of any game I buy into the price I pay for the game? I pay for the games so that the developers can continue making games I like for me. Do you want to play more games from the creators of the games you've played and liked? I too have a large collection of games that I will probably never play or finish. Doesn't matter though.
bni 13y ago
I think many people, regardless of age, pirate becouse of laziness. Such a simple thing as having to fetch your credit card from your wallet, installing and registering on a game download service (such as GoG, Steam). If you are used to torrenting, if that is you normal way to get stuff like TV shows and movies, there is less _resistance_ to download the cracked version of a game. I dont justify this, or think its good, just pointing it out.
- tpetrina 13y ago
  Well, Steam is actually more convenient than torrenting. You don't have to search for the correct torrent, test it, trust it, and so on. Find a game, pay it, download it, play it.
belorn 13y ago
Quick question: Would you have bought games on steam over $1000 if the steam services would had been a bad one? Or to put it in a other way, how much of that $1000 is thanks to steams services, convenience and marketing? Many people claim, including the CEO of steam, that steam is not competing with pirates. People pay for the services, which in turn get partially sent to developers to create more content to be used in the service.
- tpetrina 13y ago
  I think that convenience wins over pirating. Just recently I bought Far Cry 3 after finishing the pirated version. What I discovered is that having DRM in the normal, paid version is completely annoying. I would gladly pay for any service which offers one-click media consumption regardless if it was about games, movies, music, comics or some other.
vy8vWJlco 13y ago
(Sidestepping "has cost" vs "is worth.") It sounds like you are saying "do as I say, not as I did." You choose to pay now, but not paying made sense for you in the past. I'd like to see everyone have the same opportunity. I think that's the essence of digital capitalism. No copyright needed, IMHO.
- sp332 13y ago
  Copyright is still useful, say for someone who rips off your game and sells it as their own. I'd agree the extent it's been taken to is ridiculous though.
lilsunnybee 13y ago
Hoping this was meant to be ironic. You pirated in the past when you didn't have the means but started paying when you could pirate instead. Sounds perfect to me. Oh wait ... unless the game devs made a bunch of baseless assumptions that all pirates are lazy yuppies who have the cash for games but choose to pirate instead just to spite game developers.

D9u 13y ago

Interesting article, even though I rarely play electronic games, except the free games in the FreeBSD ports tree.

xmjw 13y ago

Great article! If you get paid to produce software for a living, it strikes me as pretty crazy to happily rip-off other people's work.

FuzzyDunlop 13y ago

It's a bit of a stretch to complain that so many people 'stole' the game when they put their own cracked copy on BitTorrent.

Filligree 13y ago
Oh, really? Someone else would have done the same, and you know it. I think this strategy was brilliant.
kolinko 13y ago
This would happen anyway.

mokash 13y ago

Wow, this is brilliant. One of the biggest complaints that pirates have is DRM. If a game is DRM free then why not purchase it? Especially if you really like it and it's only $8! Great post guys, good luck.

danielweber 13y ago
People are still complaining about them all over this page, though.

claudius 13y ago

I haven’t bought any game released after 2004[0] – simply because in my opinion, gameplay has suffered a lot lately. I can recall spending years building stuff in Pharao when I was a kid and recently had a lot of fun (months!) playing Patrician II/III, bought from GOG. Where are these games nowadays? [0] The latest game I bought on Steam was Counter Strike: Source, mostly because it was on sale and bundled up with some other stuff that actually works on my computer.

citricsquid 13y ago
Have you tried Minecraft? There are players racking up thousands of hours with it.
- Filligree 13y ago
  Me being one of them. :-) Base minecraft isn't that great, though some people seem to like it. Add on a pack like Feed the Beast, though, and it gets really interesting - I'm working my way up the tech tree in Mindcrack at the moment.
- ropiku 13y ago
  Exactly. I'm a big Minecraft and FeedTheBeast(mod packs) fan. And the game keeps getting updated and mods get more and more complex.
- claudius 13y ago
  I have to admit, no(, not yet). Probably mostly because I was happily mudding away when it first came out and caused this big hype with people playing it in lecture theatres etc. Judging from past experience, I will probably get to it around 2020 :\
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  I'm surprised to see this suggestion here. While minecraft has a lot going for it, I don't know if I would call any of it 'gameplay'. You wander/dig around and find shiny rocks, and while there are monsters the combat system is pretty awful and quickly abandoned. The fun is in building and in mods, rather than anything in the basic survival mode. Heck, it barely qualifies as a game by having any goals, and it didn't even have that for a year.

johncagula 13y ago

http://www.kopimi.com/kopimi/ http://www.kopimi.com/kopimi/

jarofgreen 13y ago
What's the distinction between this and Creative Commons, or other such licenses?
- johncagula 13y ago
  this is not so much a license as it is an imperative. proliferation of data without boundary... 'other such licenses' have structure about them that limit what can be done with them

onli 13y ago

The irony is great. But I fear it is possible that wasn't such a good idea. Given the graphs, there were 4k people interested in the game. Over 90% of them now have the impression that the game is unplayable long-term because of the message-box. Maybe many of them get the hint, but those who don't might generate bad pr and prevent others from buying it. But well, maybe that article combined with answers to the complaining players will spread the word wide enough. At least that now makes the game known.

citricsquid 13y ago
This article is going to be covered by all major gaming press by the end of the day, it will have hundreds of thousands of page views and probably result in thousands of sales just from "that's so funny I'm going to buy it just to support you!" so while in isolation you might be right that it would reduce sales the marketing value of this post is going to be many orders of magnitude more than the negative experience reports.
- NamTaf 13y ago
  Guilty as charged. Going to install it and give it a whirl after I finish my exam tonight. It'll be a good break from Dota I guess!
- belorn 13y ago
  Sad but true. This could have been an excellent case to see the impact that those who pirate games have in creating buzz and influence those that do pay rather than pirate. The trouble is to get social research people to observe this without media influencing the result.
- shawndumas 13y ago
  Yes, I just bought the game out of a sense of good 'karma'...
micheljansen 13y ago
My thoughts exactly. The pie chart towards the end should scare off anyone willing to try this: if 93.6% of users who played the game on the first day after release got a shitty experience, it means that at least 93.6% of feedback is going to be negative (or more, because people are more likely to provide feedback when they are unhappy than when they are satisfied). Still think it's a great idea, and I love the irony (especially since it's a game dev simulator), but if I were them I would have put a timed delay on the pirate punishment.

algorias 13y ago

While I think this is a very clever idea, it's also somewhat dishonest. In the game world, pirates cause studios to go bankrupt. In the real world, the causal link is not as clear. People arguing that piracy is ruining gamedev routinely ignore the fact that those who pirate don't necessarily have the means to buy many games; their choice is purely between pirating and not playing. Of those 90% or more who pirate the game, it's probably less than 10% who can be persuaded to actually buy it. Anyway, I'm curious to see how this attempt unfolds.

eropple 13y ago
> People arguing that piracy is ruining gamedev routinely ignore the fact that those who pirate don't necessarily have the means to buy many games And people who defend pirates routinely ignore that pirated products are also pirated by people who will take what they want for free if they can, because they can. Don't pretend to a higher level of intellectual honesty or moral strength. Your position can lay claim to neither.
- epsylon 13y ago
  Yep, I've always found ridiculous when pirates claim they don't have the financial means to buy a $3 game to play on their $600 smartphone with a $30 per month data plan.
  - kefka 13y ago
    Hmm. I "love" your inflated numbers. I paid $75 for my iphone 3GS. I bought it from some dude that had to buy the iphone 4 when it came out. I then proceeded to jailbreak and unlock the phone to run any software and use any carrier. I then got onto a carrier that charges $30 for unlimited phone/text/data ~ family mobile. And I don't buy any app at all. I'll save my money for tangible things instead.
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  I'm not sure you're actually disagreeing with the post you replied to. People that take things because they're free end up downloading things they're not particularly interested in and may never even watch/play. Those people aren't potential customers. This isn't a moral issue at heart, it's about the impact of piracy on sales.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

Actually that post made me want to buy the game.

JonnieCache 13y ago

Yesterday I bought some mp3s legally off amazon. They were 128 kbit/s. I deleted them out of rage/spite and ordered the CD, which is out of print and so all the money went to a second hand record dealer. If only I'd had recourse to piracy in that instance!

SG- 13y ago
I was under the impression Amazon used 256Kbit VBR?
- sp332 13y ago
  It's inconsistent. Some of the tracks are ripped with lame -V0 which is the very best quality you will ever see in an MP3 file. Others are not so good.
lucian1900 13y ago
Although in almost all cases 128kbps is just fine and you couldn't tell the difference.
- StavrosK 13y ago
  In no case is that true for MP3. The difference between 128 and 160 kbits is painfully obvious.
  - spmurrayzzz 13y ago
    Agreed. It may be that my previous experience as a session drummer has influenced me here, but anyone that has challenged me in the past to point out the difference between 128 and above received the same statement each time: "listen to the cymbals, man". Cymbal wash is enough for me to never pay a dime for 128 kbits tracks.
    - StavrosK 13y ago
      That's exactly how I tell the difference too, and I'm no drummer. It just sounds horrible.

qznc 13y ago

I try a cracked version, if there is no free demo available. This particular game does have a demo, though. If you do not want to go down the DRM route, this approach of publishing your own cracked version is probably best. A at least you have a little control, since you can make subtly change [0] the experience for crack users (very punny ;). I agree with the author that convenience is a big factor. If it easier to download a cracked version compared to paying the developer, there is a problem. Since we are on HN, how about a service which helps game devs to put their games on as many stores (Steam,Desura,Ubuntu,Play,Apple,etc) as possible? It is probably a lot of work for single person devs. A little fee upfront and a percentage of the income, so it is a pretty quick buck for the game dev. [0] http://thepiratebay.is/torrent/6617784/No_Time_To_Explain_Windows_tinyBuildGAMES http://thepiratebay.is/torrent/6617784/No_Time_To_Explain_Wi...

Dylan16807 13y ago

This is pretty amusing but it sounds like the piracy model in the game is pretty unrealistic. A high level of piracy is typical, and while it can hurt games it doesn't destroy them.

talmir 13y ago
You have numbers/references to support your assumption that piracy never destroys games/game developers?

kenkam 13y ago

Slightly unrelated to the original point of the article: has anyone heard of Kairosoft and Game Dev Story [0]? It's ironic the OP wrote an article about irony. Having said that, it looks like they have elements not seen in GDS, but the premise is similar enough. [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Dev_Story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Dev_Story

krichman 13y ago
The screenshot is basically a direct copy of Game Dev Story down to the perspective.
bromagosa 13y ago
Some anti-piracy zealots would dare to say they pirated their game idea from someone else.
mcintyre1994 13y ago
They claim that was their inspiration, but the gameplay is very different. [0] I don't think we can judge that from the screenshot. [0]: http://leviathyn.com/games/pc/2012/12/04/interview-greenheart-games-about-their-upcoming-sim-game-dev-tycoon/ http://leviathyn.com/games/pc/2012/12/04/interview-greenhear...
stefs 13y ago
he's been accused of copying kairosoft's game a couple of times already, you can read his response here (he's ppakl): http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1cn8yi/game_dev_tycoon_essentially_an_updated_game_dev/ http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1cn8yi/game_dev_tycoo... yes, they've been inspired by it but "their version" does have different and more complex gameplay mechanics. a lot of people like greenhearts take on the subject more. i've played neither, but i guess i'll give game dev tycoon a try - after not being totally happy with kairosofts ninja village, i guess ghg deserve a chance.
- kenkam 13y ago
  Ah, I was thinking I can't be the only one thinking that. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I can understand his side of the story. ghg definitely did not "Zyngify" GDS. In any case I'm gonna buy a copy of GDT to see what it's like!

chao- 13y ago

I don't even play games much these days, but I am about to buy a copy of this because the comedy alone was worth eight dollars (and because it runs on Linux!). Maybe it's just funnier to me because I know a few guys who work at an indie game studio. Edit: Not just lauding them on HN, "about to buy" has become "have just bought".

wcchandler 13y ago
I'm in a similar boat. I'm thinking of buying the game only to download the pirated version. It sounds quite fun... almost as if the difficulty level is on "God mode."

ledneb 13y ago

I do find myself wondering about audience, here. The product was given pretty good exposure to a "market" of non-paying users. If it were pushed it to markets which give you similar exposure in front of paying users, perhaps you would have a different result? Not to say getting that exposure is easy, but is this also a case of remembering who your customers are? I'm a paying gamer - I don't think I've seen this game for sale until now. I'll check out the demo over lunch :)

anedisi2 13y ago

The painful sting of Serious Sam 3's anti-piracy protection http://www.joystiq.com/2011/12/07/the-painful-sting-of-serious-sam-3s-anti-piracy-protection/ http://www.joystiq.com/2011/12/07/the-painful-sting-of-serio...

workbench 13y ago

Pretty much sums up why so many studios consider the PC an after thought if at all these days. Also how stupid are windows users just downloading "FULL CRACKED WORKING DEFINITELY NO VIRUSES TURN OFF YOUR CHECKER FOR FALSE POSITIVES" in this day and age.

guard-of-terra 13y ago
This is what shocked me in Bitcoin community, btw. Most of them use Windows and forums as means of distributing software. Somebody writes "Here is the new Bitcoin miner release, get it here http://someshadydomain http://someshadydomain - and everybody actually downloads and runs it. And they somehow get by with it.

vacri 13y ago

Linux pirated edition but no linux demo? I guess I'll check it out with the pirated edition then.

logicallee 13y ago

update2, someone replied with a screenshot but non-working link to the comment. attempting to verify. so far could not verify links directly. will attempt to update if I am still within this comment's edit window, otherwise see responses below for the current status. ---- EDIT: it also makes it seem likely to me that the screenshots of users posting on forums were fabricated. they seem a little too good (too ironic, too much like south park) to be true. Googling seems to confirm: http://i.imgur.com/TfxzkrA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TfxzkrA.jpg This is a total hoax! :) Those posts simply don't exist. (As of 11:39 CET on 4/29/2013.) still, south park worthy, I laughed very hard. OP, write satire: not hoax. good luck. -- Original comment: just out of curiosity, I wonder why "A minute after we uploaded it, my torrent client looked like this:" shows a screenshot with 3 torrents that were "Added a day ago" and "Added 18 hours ago". it sure looks like this is a slight exaggeration :)

citricsquid 13y ago
The two screenshots are from 2 different forums, the first is Steam community forum and the second is Facepunch. The Facepunch post is here: http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=40453336#post40453336 http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?p=40453336#post40453336 and the Steam one is probably somewhere in here: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/discussions/134714217 http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/discussion...
- logicallee 13y ago
  I'm sorry if I'm incredulous. I DO believe that the screenshots show the formating of the forum. It's just that those particular posts were completely fabricated. (e.g. rewriting the source code of a comment in the html source and then taking a screenshot of it.) Just to confirm that Google does index those posts, I picked a random one that wasn't too recent, and could find it without any problem: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22While+we+were+inspired+by+GDS+we+created+our+game+from+scratch+and+the%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22While+we+were+inspired+by... If you find (and don't fabricate) these posts, could you reply with a screenshot and link? Neither link actually brings up anything. You also offer no explanation why "literally ONE MINUTE" after putting his torrents up, his uTorrent screenshot shows a torrent added the day before.

citricsquid 13y ago

Seems to have crashed due to load, mirror: http://www.greenheartgames.com.nyud.net/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/ http://www.greenheartgames.com.nyud.net/2013/04/29/what-happ...

mcintyre1994 13y ago

Clever idea, and genius advertising. Most of your website is down at the moment, but I'm looking forward to getting the demo when it's back up.

serf 13y ago

Cute. You may make sales due to the novelty of the idea getting blogged about, but you'll lose sales and PR due to the majority of your player base having played/used a faulty product. There are still gamers who think that 'Batman: Arkham Asylum' had legitimately broken mechanics, due to a similar action the developers of that game did ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/94524-Arkham-Asylum-Pirates-Get-a-Gimpy-Batman http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/94524-Arkham-Asylu... ). I'm all for punishing pirates , but the unfortunate aspect of this is that you're punishing pirates & all of the possible legitimate customers that the pirate exposes to the game. These people are potential customers , independent siblings, children who can beg their parents to buy the game, whatever, that are witnessing and at worst case experiencing a broken product, and having whatever faith they had in whatever company reduced. I do like what it does to make you think twice about data legitimacy on the ether though. It's nice to be reminded that most of us don't know where that data is coming from.

b0rsuk 13y ago
Implementing a copy protection mechanism like this is giving pirates Quad Damage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZhzXKMqZBBc#t=1107s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v...

Comkid 13y ago

using always-online DRM to stop piracy: losing the whole of SimCity's customer base using irony to teach pirates not to pirate: priceless

jbrooksuk 13y ago

Hah, this is genius. Love the irony.

xinsight 13y ago

Page was unavailable for me. Cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...

teh_web 13y ago

Ok I just baught it. Partly for the interesting (and funny) story, but mostly because it's hell of a game.

shadowmint 13y ago

I suppose I'm in the minority here, but I read most of the article, and was like, hm, I should buy this and support these guys. Then I read: We know this because our game contains some code to send anonymous-usage data to our server. Nothing unusual or harmful. Heaps of games/apps do this and we use it to better understand how the game is played. It’s absolutely anonymous and you are covered by our privacy policy. Mm. Actually, I don't really care if it's covered by your privacy policy, if your game has a cute little 'phone home' sending who-knows-what from my computer off to yours, you can go jump~ Sorry.

nanidin 13y ago
You realize that almost all mobile apps dial home with app metrics data right?
- dchest 13y ago
  So?
aaronjb 13y ago
This is how analytics applications work. Almost every website you visit has Google Analytics installed, which sends your data to their servers so that the developer gets a better understanding of their users. Apps aren't an exception, you'll find it in almost all of them. When you install the app it should notify you what is does or doesn't have access to, so things like your phone book and call history are not accessible for the app.
- jgroome 13y ago
  Veering off topic, but I wonder what people would say if analytics for websites required telling the user what data is being gathered about them before requiring an active opt-in.
  - jarofgreen 13y ago
    No, that's entirely on topic for this particular point. I know and you know this kind of tracking is industry standard because we are in this industry. Most people outside this industry don't know that, and are pretty shocked when they see. Seriously, if you have access to a Google Analytics account with a reasonable amount of data start showing people how much stuff you are tracking and see what their reaction is. Telling OP their "phone home" concerns aren't valid because that's "standard practice" is a terrible argument.

secoif 13y ago

Massive missed opportunity to convert all those pirates into paying users. Instead of focussing on teaching pirates a lesson, they should have set up an in-game option to "pay $x to remove piracy issues from game".

deleted 13y ago

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Millennium 13y ago

The second-quickest way to make someone an enemy is to call him out on his BS (the quickest is to question his opinion on the impact his own actions have had on his life, but that's for another thread).

talmir 13y ago

Wow, this makes me glad I bought the game on day one (after playing the demo and waiting impatiently for a while for the release on windows 8 store :) ).

anonymous 13y ago

Since the devs uploaded the game on bittorrent themselves, isn't it now implicitly legal to share that copy? Obviously not the unaltered copy, but if you upload something to which you own the copyright to bittorrent, you must be either implicitly giving people the right to share it with others, or you're entrapping them into committing a copyright violation. Can the devs then be sued for knowingly tricking people into committing a copyright violation?

danielweber 13y ago
> isn't it now implicitly legal to share that copy? That may well be considered giving permission. However, since they are interested in the social aspect, not the legal aspect, that doesn't matter. The social assumption is that a game you get from a torrent is pirated. > Can the devs then be sued for knowingly tricking people into committing a copyright violation? (Ignoring for the nonce that in America you can sue anyone for anything) no. No one got "tricked." No one went out to buy a copy of this game and ended up on the torrent by accident.
ripter 13y ago
> Can the devs then be sued for knowingly tricking people into committing a copyright violation? I'm not a lawyer. If it follows entrapment laws then the "violator" would have to prove that they've never pirated before and they were tricked into it by the developers.

foona 13y ago

Anyone has a link to download a liberated proper copy of the game? The one on ThePirateBay appears to be the malicious trojanized fake version described in the article.

talmir 13y ago
Really? You are going to ask this here? You can get a proper copy of the game from the developers themselves for eight dollars.
- foona 13y ago
  After the stunt they pulled? They should consider themselves lucky if nobody sues them for the fraud they perpetrated by misrepresenting their product, the time they caused the public to waste debugging the issue, and the emotional harm of being prevented from enjoying the game. Not that I really care, since the game is not on NFOHump nor RlsLog, which generally means the game sucks so much that nobody bothered releasing it.
  - omegaham 13y ago
    > They should consider themselves lucky if nobody sues them for the fraud they perpetrated by misrepresenting their product Wait, what? Their genuine product is exactly what they said it was. The Pirate Bay version is the "fraud." And that was free. They effectively released a demo.
  - zappbrannigan 13y ago
    Are you a fucking idiot? What fraud did they perpetrate?

tomovo 13y ago

There should be two "achievements" in this game: 1) play the pirated version 2) play the purchased version Give special credit or in-game sales boost to people who get #2 after #1.

csdreamer7 13y ago

Classic! I wonder if the OP could use that 'anonymous' data to determine the region of each player. This would be important for determining how many pirates came from rich countries vs poor.

daralthus 13y ago

Clearly, this is marketing at it's best.

jack_trades 13y ago

So, you just released a game after what was likely a big investment in heart, time, and money and you haven't pulled any money back out yet? Did you expect something different after such a short period of time? Also, you created a game that has pulled in $1600 in revenue so far and you're thinking that $24k worth of revenue is just not coming in because you can measure the freeloaders. Those freeloaders aren't your customers and likely never will be. Focus on why 214 people bought the game and make them so happy that they will support you and the extended marketing of the game. Had you not spent the hours developing, testing, etc. these features and trying to trick worthless freeloaders into exposing themselves for the sake of rhetorical blog posts, you could have improved your bottom line. You COULD have added features important to paying customers. Also, the sad freeloaders posts stink of fabrication. They may well not be, but my cynicism puts together a picture of a hacker-news-abuse viral marketing scheme. Every link in the chain has an unsoiled feel to it. The game is about a game dev company, not FPS gore. The freeloaders write in full sentences and precisely nail talking points as if they came from a game industry association. The dev has taken great care to handle freeloaders gently in the post. exposing everything. Even if this were a marketing scam, the backlash would be ho-hum because everything is just so meek. AND... of course there's an actionable pitch and link thrown right in there. You were supposed to hold back and wait for the crowd to demand links. This game always had a very limited audience. RPG of a gaming software development company? Plan the scale and scope of your project accordingly.

jusben1369 13y ago

Brilliant. Really enjoyed this. Also enjoying this lively thread. There's an awful lot of strange rationalization going on in the comment. For those of you who point out "Hey a lot of those pirated people aren't going to pay anyways!" here's a sobering fact. If just 7% of those pirated copies were paid this developer would have DOUBLED first day sales. Could be the difference between getting to work on their dream, hiring another dev, or calling quits on the whole thing. 7% I have a hard time believing 10% of those pirates are not just cheap, lazy folks who - per the irony of the comments - are the first to squawk if they ever feel short changed in life "The steal because it's easy" is a great way to encourage draconian measures. I'd be a little more fired up if we were inclined to self police than rationalize away.

jack_trades 13y ago
I want to respectfully disparage your statement. Doubling zero is zero. Doubling a small amount is likely still a small amount. They need to sell somewhere like 10k units to make this effort worth repeating, let alone a profit model. That means they better get working on getting this in the hands of 150k pirates. 7% of freeloaders is no small or easy task and compare time and energy trying to convert the sinful vs. pandering to the pious. Stop trying to fix culture or people and make a good product that makes life better and/or easier for paying customers. This thread would be a fine place to enumerate the devs and studios that had success converting pirates to payers. That's a short list. Given their platform, you would think progressive crippling of game play hits the correct balance of try before you buy and allowing for player investment to the point where they could be nudged in. Or, why not sell in-game DRM for $8?
- jusben1369 13y ago
  I respect your argument and approach. "Stop trying to fix culture or people" I think our culture and people generally frown upon stealing given the ramifications it has for all of us if it becomes rampant. So I'm not trying to fix these folks - just point out that the ease with which these goods can be stolen creates this outcome where it gets too much of a free pass.

deleted 13y ago

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J_Darnley 13y ago

No wonder people pirate when the game is advertised at €6.49 but they don't mention until you come to pay that this is without sales tax! It actually costs €7.85.

ripter 13y ago

It seems like they are missing a great chance to get some money from these pirates. DLC. The pirated version of the game offers a DLC to add DRM to your games. It doesn't stop piracy, and can occasionally cause boycots of your game, but it keeps the game playable. Paid players get a game they enjoy, pirates who might buy, might buy a DLC so they can keep playing.

mindstab 13y ago

Is there any irony this game appears like a complete "remake" of Game Dev Story which I have bought and played a ton of? I do agree piracy is bad but I hope if they don't do well they don't just blame pirates. It's incredibly complicated and I don't want to knock their work but I hope they had some evidence there was demand for such a game, beyond the first one that already established some good market share. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Dev_Story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Dev_Story

swinglock 13y ago

It would be interesting to see a follow-up with minutes played by customers and by the pirates instead of only unique users, something that really ought to be included in their statistics. It doesn't justify anything, but I think if we are allowed to speculate pirates being more likely to block the game in a firewall (I agree, it's highly likely that more of them are) I may speculate that pirates are far less likely than a customer that paid money to play the game for more than an hour, total. If the pirate doesn't it was essentially a demo run. Maybe the pirate is downloading just about every game released because it's free and drops it as soon as the next download has finished or just doesn't have the attention span to justify for themselves to buy games. The customers that did so that probably weren't happy with the purchase, even though the price is low, unless the game is advertised as being short. Over 90% users being pirates is depressing, but I think if you look at usage it will be somewhat less so.

unkoman 13y ago

I wouldn't pay for a game dev story clone either. I'd rather play the original.

benjamincburns 13y ago

Whatever he does, I hope that "research DRM" isn't ever an option for the game. Instead, maybe he can make a "leak a cleverly-crafted version of the game to troll pirates and then blog about it" option?

w1ntermute 13y ago

> gave it a description imitating the scene The description looks nothing like the NFOs typically included with scene releases. However, most people don't know what the scene is or what their NFOs look like (or what NFOs are at all), so this clearly wasn't a practical issue. However, my point remains.

b0rsuk 13y ago

Page unavailabel for now. But here's a quote from a forum: """The cracked version is nearly identical to the real thing except for one detail… Slowly their in-game funds dwindle, and new games they create have a high chance to be pirated until their virtual game development company goes bankrupt.""" I haven't played the pamphlet, but it sounds like it's implemented by substracting money from player's in-game funds. This means whenever someone pirates a game in this pamphlet, player loses money. In other words, theft as opposed to a loss of a sale. How cute! I remember a case where someone wrote a script to automatically download a pirated piece of software or a music album. It was linked to a website with a counter. The website owner wanted the developer/musician to bankrupt. The idea was that by downloading the thing enough times, he could make the copyright owner go bankrupt.

ameen 13y ago

The problem as I see it, is that the dev himself uploaded the "gimped version" to the torrent site. Most indie games (unless they're a hit) never make it to TPB or some other place because the game is only available through legitimate sources, and most indie-loving gamers care too much about the developers to casually crack a game and upload it onto some shady torrent site. It's easy to blame inefficiency to piracy. Minecraft was pirated heavily, did Mojang go bankrupt? Gaming has evolved, Games are no longer a product to be packed up and shipped off. Constant updates, content packs, etc (free or otherwise) keep a customer engaged. If someone really likes the game, the lore and whatnot they will pay to get the original game. Heck, I personally know a ton of my classmates buying CoD4 since they couldn't access various multiplayer modded servers. Piracy in general(be it games, movies, or music) is a problem that the content makers need to solve. New and effective services, sources will conquer it - Online streaming music has to an extent, Bollywood has taken warmly to YouTube and uploads ad-supported official HD movies (barely months after they launch). As Gabe Newell said, Piracy is a service problem. It has always been and it always will be.

rplnt 13y ago
> ...most indie-loving gamers care too much about the developers to casually crack a game and upload it onto some shady torrent site. You don't need to crack DRM-free game. You can just upload it as is.
- ameen 13y ago
  My argument was for games in general (regardless of copy protection). There's a ton of decent DRM nowadays.

john_b 13y ago

I wonder if it would be possible to exploit human vanity to reduce piracy amongst those who can afford a game. People do things like buy fancy cars and large houses to signal wealth; perhaps similar forms of social signaling can be incorporated into smaller purchases like videogames to provide a social incentive to purchasing instead of pirating?

bellbind 13y ago

Pirated content is free content: you can't really say that one person pirating your game equals one lost sale. Would have he bought it, if he was given no alternative choice to get it? When the price is null, there are low to no expectations as to how good the product should be, hence there's a lot more people using it. Someone gives you something that has value for free in the street, would you take it? There's a good chance the answer is yes, even if you do need it.

gotrythis 13y ago

One thing to consider, is that the distribution method for the pirated version is very established, accessible, and fast to get the word out. How have they marketed the legit version? Their graph doesn't necessarily mean that 93% of people pirate the game. It more likely means that the reach of the pirated version is much greater than the reach of the legit one.

gotrythis 13y ago
And to answer my own question, this news article is how they are marketing the legit version, so it will be interesting to see what those graphs look like after the marketing has done its job.

bobx11 13y ago

You could have made money from the pirates by embedding a bitcoin miner in the app.