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Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues

• adventured 14y ago
  Three things 1) remove the online DRM 2) significantly expand the size of the ridiculously small city area (let users push the bounds of their system by choosing how big of a city to work on) 3) enable a save/load to go with the offline mode Do it as fast as possible. And then suck up to users by providing some free DLC here and there. Anyone taking bets that EA will do the opposite of these obvious steps?
• samstave 14y ago
  I'm not going to lie: I will buy this game as soon as someone cracks the DRM and allows single, offline play.
  • criley 14y ago
    You mean, when someone reverse engineers their massively multiplayer server scheme and rewrites an entire server wrapper for a game that follows the client/server paradigm? This isn't a case where a client-only software package is locked by a remote server. This is a case where core game logic is stored on servers and will have to be reverse engineered or emulated on some level to play truly offline.
    • PeterisP 14y ago
      It wouldn't be the first time where such game-servers are actually reverse engineered and emulated.
      • daeken 14y ago
        Hell, that's how I got into reversing a decade ago. I spent years reverse-engineering Everquest to work on server emulators, as well as an open-source client replacement. Quite the gateway drug.
    • astrodust 14y ago
      It took years, but this was done with Battle.net for some older Blizzard games.
      • nwh 14y ago
        Mainly because it Battle.net is just IRC.
        • astrodust 14y ago
          I mean of the actual game back-end for things like Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft II. There was a complete replacement for Battle.Net that, unfortunately, ended up mired by legal concerns.
    • deoxxa 14y ago
      I kind of started poking around at the backend protocol this morning. It's all websockets over HTTPS (very trendy stuff) and is hosted on EC2. I'm yet to dig much further than "let's see what this looks like in wireshark", but the behaviour and some of the errors I've observed in-game point to some kind of sync-every-now-and-then architecture. I wouldn't be surprised if it was really easy to do up a custom server for it. I'm going to keep poking at this thing, so I'll document what I find here: https://gist.github.com/deoxxa/5111644 https://gist.github.com/deoxxa/5111644 - feel free to join in!
      • goatforce5 14y ago
        Which makes it surprising that they didn't design it so they could spool up more servers as required, and gentle shut them back down once interest in the game wanes.
        • deoxxa 14y ago
          More surprising again is that they actually have three completely active (as far as I can tell) environments that are just sitting there unused.
      • nwh 14y ago
        The "hidden" servers are probably due to the game not being released in Europe yet. I'm assuming they are reserved capacity for when hundreds of thousands of new users join.
        • deoxxa 14y ago
          That makes a lot of sense, I hadn't thought about that.
    • samstave 14y ago
      Yes. Whatever the case may be. Ultima Online was completely reverse engineered and then re-deployed to host the cracked version at a state where lots of players liked it. Prior to the devs breaking the way some users preferred it. Do I doubt this will happen, No. Do I expect it to happen tomorrow? No. But I expect either this to happen, or EA to fix this problem. When its fixed, I'll buy the game.
    • nwh 14y ago
      There's absolutely no need. The game runs for 20 minutes with no internet connection. All the logic runs locally, and will be cracked. The only thing that needs to be emulated is the save/load system.
    • lcampbell 14y ago
      I'm pretty sure the core game logic is not on the servers, as widely reported -- I was playing from 9-12PM CST last night, and the servers were supposedly completely down from 10-12PM -- I was able to continue playing in my city, and wasn't kicked until I attempted to interact with the region. Granted, anything having to do with the region (imports/exports, shared upgrades, etc) was defunct. Additionally, when you exit a city, there's a long pause where your client sends the city state to the server to be persisted (or so the UI tells me) -- another indication that the simulation is not run on the server. My current impression is that the entire city simulation is done on the client, and the server is simply responsible for intra-city interactions and persisting game state.
      • deoxxa 14y ago
        100% agree with this. I got kicked out of a game because of "network issues" last night and when I logged back in, the city I'd spent a good 40 minutes starting up was nowhere to be found. It did, however, remember that I'd claimed that city.
    • Semaphor 14y ago
      Not sure how it changed after the release, but I remember there being alpha or pre-alpha WoW servers.
• KevinEldon 14y ago
  The title of the 5-star review Amazon highlighted as the helpful is delightful: "Got me off my video game addiction!" If there isn't some kind of anti-DRM movement surrounding these review this game might break some kind of record for worst reviews. As of now there are 737 1-star reviews.
  • lost_name 14y ago
    Spore (the last Big Game released by Maxis through EA) is currently holding that record, I believe. By September 14, 2008 (ten days after the game's initial Australian release), 2,016 of 2,216 ratings on Amazon.com gave the game one out of five stars, most citing EA's implementation of DRM for the low ratings. [1] Spore's DRM issues were different, however. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spore_(2008_video_game)#DRM_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spore_(2008_video_game)#DRM_con...
    • treeface 14y ago
      I actually legitimately hated Spore for its gameplay. So much promise and hype...such poor execution.
      • MartinCron 14y ago
        Spore was really great in that different people could learn to hate it in completely different ways.
    • damncabbage 14y ago
      Clearly EA suffered dearly for it, and have made sure never to repeat the mistake. :(
    • danielweber 14y ago
      For what it's worth, my son enjoyed the bejesus out of Spore, and even used his own money to get expansions.
      • 14y ago
• jpwright 14y ago
  Nitpicking: The name of the game is just "Sim City". They dropped the numbering scheme and went for a total reboot.
  • deleted 14y ago
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  • cryptoz 14y ago
    > The name of the game is just "Sim City" No, it's not. If you're going to nitpick, get it right. The name of the game is SimCity.
    • JTon 14y ago
      If you're going to slam his comment, at least offer a reason why it's incorrect
      • ceejayoz 14y ago
        The Amazon link lists it as "SimCity".
      • programzeta 14y ago
        The title is 'SimCity', all as one word.
      • deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
    • talmand 14y ago
      To be fair, the box art says SimCity with no "V". The promotional materials on the EA site says SimCity with no "V". If it actually is named SimCity V then it's easy to understand the confusion. Although I wouldn't call it a reboot necessarily since every version is more or less a reboot, so to speak.
      • lobster_johnson 14y ago
• ericcholis 14y ago
  Side note, it's a little odd that the additional images for a video game are all concept art.
• fennecfoxen 14y ago
  So did they not even bother to look at the debacle of a launch that was _Cities XL_? Or did they imagine themselves immune?
  • arkitaip 14y ago
    EA has a very long history of anti consumer practices. Pretty much everyone expected some kind of fubar on launch but even this level of incompetence surprised most jaded gamers.
    • Natsu 14y ago
      They sold server-side processing as a "feature" for what should otherwise be a single-player game. Did anyone not see this coming when it was last discussed on HN? I remember thinking that the servers were guaranteed to melt on launch day.
      • Natsu 14y ago
        Interesting. I guess one person didn't see this coming.
    • signed0 14y ago
      I can't understand why experienced gamers would buy it at launch if they expect there to be serious technical issues.
    • fennecfoxen 14y ago
      Yeah, it's not even the screw-the-consumer DRM part: I expected that a competent product manager would have said "Hey, our competitors built a city-sim game that was supposed to incorporate a significant online gameplay element, and it didn't go so well for them. What can we learn from this and how can we avoid it?" So either they didn't ask the question, or they didn't answer it well, or they didn't bother avoiding the problems after they learned it, or they managed to flub it anyway. I'd be curious to know which dysfunction they suffered from.
• stusmall 14y ago
  My copy is on its way in the mail. I'm a huge SimCity fanatic and was slightly worried that when it got here I'd sink too much time in it and get behind on my work. Thanks EA!
• BklynJay 14y ago
  The box-art says, "Winner of 26 PC Game awards". Is that for the series or for Sim City V? I have a hard time believing its the latter.
  • arkitaip 14y ago
    Probably for the entire series but it's still false marketing.
  • scottcanoni 14y ago
    It's for the entire series. The wiki pages states it has only won "8 awards out of 24 nominations".
• cryptoz 14y ago
  This could be a very big moment. EA is selling a completely broken product - and I mean that from the perspective of the average consumer, not the nerd who thinks all DRM is broken - and they're doing it for absolutely no reason. If this lasts long enough and gets enough press, it could actually be a turning point against DRM like this. That would be so wonderful.
  • TillE 14y ago
    Oh, there's a reason. Like Diablo III, the point is that it's effectively impossible to crack. With enough processing offloaded to the server, would-be pirates need to write something that's almost a whole new game. This is the future that big videogame companies are rushing to embrace, one where customers do not and cannot own games, merely rent them for an uncertain period. Indies and smaller studios with Kickstarter funding are going to continue eating a bigger part of their lunch.
    • bearmf 14y ago
      The irony is that it is not only impossible to crack, it is now impossible to play as well. Unplayable games are impossible to crack, but this does not make them any less absurd. DRM has come to its logical and absurd conclusion, it seems.
      • deleted 14y ago
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      • fusiongyro 14y ago
        It worked out the same way with music. For a short time the labels were experimenting with selling CDs that weren't actually audio CDs, but had been damaged in various ways to make them unplayable on a computer. The result of that experiment speaks for itself. Hopefully it will play out the same way here.
        • mmatants 14y ago
          The result is that we are increasingly switching to renting our music via services like Rdio and Spotify. And I can't say that this trend is all bad. I know what I pay for (temporary access), and I'm OK with that.
• jlarocco 14y ago
  SimCity and SimCity 2000 were such great games, it's a bit disappointing to see how EA screwed up the rest of the series.
  • mhurron 14y ago
    The only thing bad about SimCity 4 was the performance was less than stellar. Other than that, 3000 and 4 were just as good as 2000.
    • khuey 14y ago
      A decent size SC4 city can bring today's hardware to its knees, and the game is 10 years old.
      • kbolino 14y ago
        It would be more accurate to say that SC4 is not optimized for today's hardware. It relies entirely on single-threaded performance, which has not improved appreciably since the days when it was released. Furthermore, it is 32-bit and not large address aware, which means it is limited to about 1.5GB of memory. Needless to say, this would max out a Pentium 4 single-core system with 2GB of RAM circa mid-2000s, but it will leave your (not too) modern 4-core desktop with 8GB of RAM sitting mostly idle with lots of free memory. The game may run slow with large cities, but that's because it doesn't know how to take advantage of modern tech, not because that modern tech is being pushed to its limits.
    • jlarocco 14y ago
      I guess it's personal preference. For me, the new stuff in 3K didn't make it more fun, it just made it more work to get a city going. It could be I didn't put in the time to understand the new stuff, though.
  • barbs 14y ago
    Still ARE great games. And DRM free. And, in the case of the original, open-source :D Micropolis (Simcity): http://code.google.com/p/micropolis/ http://code.google.com/p/micropolis/ SimCity 2000: http://www.gog.com/gamecard/simcity_2000_special_edition http://www.gog.com/gamecard/simcity_2000_special_edition
• ericcholis 14y ago
  Overall, this games seems like a good example of how not to launch a product: http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/simcity http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/simcity Fanboy perspective: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/03/simcity-impressions-we-waited-ten-years-for-this/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/03/simcity-impressions-we...
• masklinn 14y ago
  Not really game issues (though they definitely seem to exist as well, unstable games is just par for the course these days), broken DRM and server issues.
• mcintyre1994 14y ago
  Seriously, how is this legal? They're obviously very open about it requiring online, and the extent to which the servers are involved, and the fact you need Origin. However, this isn't some cheap game, some small company, some inexperienced producers who didn't know what to expect. That their servers aren't up to the job is inexcusable, and clearly their fault. Even if Origin has Ts & Cs that boil down to you don't actually have the right to play games you buy, even if you buy them on a disc - which I'm sure they do, how is this possibly legal? The game is unplayable, it's their fault and they could have made it work if they'd chosen to.
  • goatforce5 14y ago
    It would depend on your local consumer laws. Under UK law, for example, Simcity would not currently be considered 'fit for purpose' and they're clearly obliged to give you a refund: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nireland/consumer_ni/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/faulty_goods_e/what_is_meant_by_goods_not_fit_for_purpose.htm http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nireland/consumer_ni/consumer_... ...assuming you're buying it from a UK(/EU?) subsidiary. Local laws will vary. IANAL.
  • steve-howard 14y ago
    From my experience with the NCAA Football line, they just don't seem to care. People have been complaining for years that that game crashes or hangs frequently and has a number of gameplay bugs, and they haven't been fixed anything.
• nerdo 14y ago
  The dev team did an IAMA on Reddit a few months ago, where this was all foreshadowed: http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/14v8er/drama_in_riama_maxis_video_game_developers_run_an/ http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/14v8er/drama...
  • johnward 14y ago
    This sums it up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLYLmsEBGug http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLYLmsEBGug
• ryangripp 14y ago
  I think the real reason Amazon stopped selling it was the Amazon Buyers looked at the game and said: "What? No subways? Small City Size? We can't sell this!"
• littlegiantcap 14y ago
  It's been fun while I've actually been able to connect to EA's servers. (which is rare). I'm not going to beat the anti-drm drum, but I will say this. If EA is going to go this route they had better have the resources available to make it happen. I for one actually don't mind it, if it was able to work.
  • Andaith 14y ago
    This is all an assumption but: With the amount of stuff that gets simulated on their servers, the sim city servers are probably more resource intensive than even really popular FPS servers. That means they're also more expensive per person than most other game servers. What happens when it's no longer profitable for EA to keep them running? I doubt they'll release the source code.
• mortenjorck 14y ago
  EA needs to pivot this game, fast. Even in the best case scenario, where the servers all get fixed this evening and the game works flawlessly for everyone for a month straight, the damage to the game's name has been done. The meme is hatched: SimCity 2013 has a highly brittle dependency on poorly-planned cloud infrastructure. There's a private region mode in the game (that you nonetheless can't use offline in the current architecture). EA needs to have Maxis crunch for the next couple of weeks to make this work offline. Yes, I've read the nebulous quotes about "part of the sim happening in the cloud." Whatever that is, they'll have to move it to the client. Once offline play is possible, if EA wants any chance to make back its investment on this game, they're going to have to first promote the new offline mode, and then spend the next couple of months doing some post-launch rescoping of the multiplayer aspect. They can still make it work; it could still be fantastic – but they have to move fast.
  • bung 14y ago
    (I just have to say, to give more than just an upvote, this is a great post.)
  • baddox 14y ago
    > The meme is hatched: SimCity 2013 has a highly brittle dependency on poorly-planned cloud infrastructure. To the tech-literate crowd, this will be the meme. But for the average gamer, the meme is different, and I might argue worse: Sim City simply doesn't work.
    • DannoHung 14y ago
      The meme I see tends to be: EA ruins everything.
      • deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      • scarlson 14y ago
        EA's success to failure rate tends to be lower than its competitors.
• speeder 14y ago
  As a game author I am very ashamed of what the industry has been doing in the last few years. It started with FPS mania... Then crazy DRM that destroyed your PC (Starforce I am looking to you). Then... more crazy DRM! (SecuROM, that for example refused to launch Spore on dual-GPU laptops). Then online only DRM... Then DLC mania (Horse Armor, I am looking to you... unfortunately as the harbinger of something much worse past you). Then Diablo III (and now SC5) managed to be the first games I don't want to play even borrowed, pirated or given to me. If someone give me a DIII CD, I won't even re-sell it and inflict something evil on someone, I will just throw it on the trash, because online-only DRM for Single Player game, transforming the game into a sort of cloud-based service, is one of the most evil things that companies could invent, specially because they can just yank the game from you when they wish (also you cannot have fun cheating alone or modding, cannot play when you are deployed in some war without internet on the HQ or live in the third world, cannot play if you deride EA/Activision/Ubisoft on the forums and they decide to ban you...)
  • InAnEmergency 14y ago
    Can't play when the company decides to stop spending money on servers...meaning your game will actually expire and stop working one day.
  • MartinCron 14y ago
    It started with FPS mania You could go a bit further back and say it started with Atari 2600 era shovelware.
• kevinalexbrown 14y ago
  I feel bad for the game devs who got to see their hard work turn into something they don't intend. I suppose this is a great advertising technique for small firms, startups, indie shops, etc. "Don't want this[http://amazon-pulls-sim-city http://amazon-pulls-sim-city] to happen? Work for our small team. We won't destroy your work." I know it's standard to say "you get a part in the decisionmaking process!" That's part of it. But a lot of people are willing to let go of the big decisions if they get to be a part of something great. But they have to trust that it will come out well in the end.
  • amitparikh 14y ago
    Isn't this just a technical error (bug) that is a game dev's (or infrastructure engineer's) responsibility? I understand the frustration at the DRM concept, but you can't blame this on the larger entity as a whole when it was likely just a bug in some code or a small oversight. Things were clearly working when it was in beta.
    • kevinalexbrown 14y ago
      You make a really good point. Rereading my comment, it's brusque. I still think there's a point to be made about trust in a larger organization, but as someone who a) doesn't know precisely what the specific problem is and b) doesn't know whether I wouldn't have made the same mistakes, I'm going to acquiesce.
    • jfim 14y ago
      I don't know about this specific instance, but from what I recall from working in the video game industry, devs don't deal with copy protection; it's something that's done prior to mastering where they put your executable through SecuROM or whatever and it spits out a new binary that has copy protection/CD checks/online auth or whatever junk the publisher wants to add.
      • mrgoldenbrown 14y ago
        This isn't the case here. The game does significant processing on their servers, to make it useless as soon as they turn their servers off, which AFAIK they haven't promised to keep up any certain amount of time.
• junkilo 14y ago
  Its sad they didn't use the playfish devops team that flawlessly launched simcity social.
• ececconi 14y ago
  Amazon is still selling the physical version. Why would they pull the digital download and not the physical copy? Is it because there are different people responsible for it?
  • wmf 14y ago
    By the time you receive a boxed copy the servers may be fixed.
  • tantalor 14y ago
    I thought it might be an automatic block based on 1-star reviews, but both products have the same 88% 1-star reviews right now. Digital: 765/866 = 88.3% DVD: 912/1038 = 87.9%
    • estel 14y ago
      If there's an automatic block, it's more likely to be related to refund requests.
    • cail 14y ago
      Is there a way to filter Amazon reviews by Verified Purchase? I'd love to see these stats with only people that we know have bought the game. I'm just curious of a way to eliminate all the people who made up their mind before the game even came out.
  • estel 14y ago
    It's entirely possible that Amazon have just run out of keys for the digital version...
  • toyg 14y ago
    From what I've read, EA is directly refunding customers of physical disks -- I guess they're forced by some law or another. No such luck for digital downloads: EA is refusing all refunds for them. Amazon dipped into their pockets for a while, returning money to disgruntled customers and taking a hit for EA, but clearly it was getting too much.
• goatforce5 14y ago
  Where's Steve Jobs when you need him? > Steve Jobs summoned the MobileMe team to the Town Hall > auditorium on Apple’s Cupertino campus for an obscenity- > laden dressing down. ‘You’ve tarnished Apple’s reputation,’ > he told them. ‘You should hate each other for having let > each other down.’ Then he named a new executive on the spot > to run the team.” http://macdailynews.com/2011/05/08/steve-jobs-to-those-responsible-for-mobilemess-you-should-hate-each-other/#Gb5gk9Qr5v3TWy0M.99 http://macdailynews.com/2011/05/08/steve-jobs-to-those-respo...
  • NoPiece 14y ago
    Although it is more likely in this case that the EA executives mandated online only to the developers.
    • goatforce5 14y ago
      No doubt. Doesn't mean you have to implement it badly though.
      • NoPiece 14y ago
        Agreed! But having worked at a company similar to EA, I know the developer may have wanted to implement certain things a certain way, but may not have been able to due to corporate mandates. For example, they may have wanted to deploy using AWS, but their CTO demanded they use the in-house infrastructure he has been working on. Obviously just speculation, but things like this happen all the time at large companies where internal factions put their own agendas ahead of the product and users. I would just hold off blaming Maxis or the development team until more is known.
        • alcari 14y ago
          Here's the thing though: they DID use AWS (one of their EU servers is 46.137.165.11). They have no excuse besides poor architecture design for not simply doubling server capacity.
• gimeq 14y ago
  SimCity 2000/3000/4 still work perfectly, and are available for free.
  • estel 14y ago
    Since when are they available for free?
    • daxelrod 14y ago
      And where?
    • ardacinar 14y ago
      I think SimCity 2000 was considered abandonware, or was it only the first SimCity game? I'm not really sure about it. But the first 4 games are definitely playable without any internet connection whatsoever.
      • calebegg 14y ago
        According to Wikipedia, original SimCity is available on Wii (virtual console) and iOS, and 2000 is still available on PSN. Hardly abandoned. And playable without an internet connection is far from "available for free".
        • jiggy2011 14y ago
          Available for free in practical terms vs available for free in legal terms..
      • itsybitsycoder 14y ago
        Abandonware isn't actually a legal concept so whether it's considered abandonware would be up to the person you ask, I guess.
    • andyking 14y ago
      Not free, but I saw SimCity 4 for sale on Steam for a small sum of about £3.99 the other week. I nearly bought it, if only to end the requirement to have the CD in to play it!
• apapli 14y ago
  Reading the comments below it sounds like there is an infrastructure scaling issue going on down at EA (I'm no DRM specialist). If that is indeed the case: Methinks the AWS sales guy/gal on the EA account has just been handed the easiest ROI they could ask for. "Buy my cloud, and we will be able to start selling your game again."
  • hga 14y ago
    Unfortunately the way this often goes is that someone who was responsible for not using AWS correctly blames AWS instead of himself and EA stops using them, or using them for future games. Although that won't tend to work if EA is already using AWS a lot.
• anigbrowl 14y ago
  Oh dear, looks like the virtual rioters have broken out into the real world.
• dakimov 14y ago
  The brain-dead corporate douches in gray suits pulled the trendy social bullshit into the legendary single-player game and ruined it. That's unbelievable!
• pale_rider 14y ago
  I don't understand why people buy games from EA? I mean, seriously, why buy it? They have been pulling this crap for years and each new release just gets progressively worse. About a year ago I decided if it's not on Steam I'm not buying it. It really sucks to miss out on some of the games, but I refuse to support such an asshole of a company.
  • lreeves 14y ago
    I bought Battlefield 3 from EA and all the expansions. It's been a great experience so far on the PC, and they've kept the community updated on upcoming patches and changed, worked through balance issues and cracked down on exploits and hacks. Now granted probably a lot of that is DICE, but they're as much as a part of EA as Maxis is so I don't necessarily think it's all EA.
  • estel 14y ago
    As a consumer: If my £40 game gives me £40 of entertainment, I will buy it. This held for Mass Effect 3 and Battlefield 3. And considering the reviews it has been receiving, I'm confident this will be true for SimCity once the early server issues have been ironed out.
  • jstevens85 14y ago
    I'm looking forward to buying it, and I haven't bought a game in years. While there are definitely a lot of people out there who really wanted the game on day 1, and are very hurt that they might not be able to play it very much for a few days, I'm guessing the majority of people who will buy SC during its lifetime will not be affected buy it, will not care, and won't even be consciously aware that it's published by EA or its reputation.
• bdesimone 14y ago
  Short of asking for a refund, and not buying the game in the first place, who at Maxis and EA can customers write/call/etc to let them know what I feel about the business decision to force online only DRM?
  • blocktuw 14y ago
    The shareholders. http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-major.html?t=EA http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-majo...
  • PeterisP 14y ago
    Short their stock.
• spartango 14y ago
  Can we talk about this more clearly? This isn't strictly "evil DRM" as people are highlighting. Unlike some other games, it's not like SimCity is just phoning home to figure out if it is licensed or not, and preventing unlicensed copies. SimCity depends on EA/Maxis' server infrastructure for a great deal of storage and computation related to the macro-scale components of each game. Not only is city state synced there and shared between players, but regional dynamics and macro-scale economic systems are continuously maintained in the EA cloud. There's plenty of other features that are done server-side, and in total they represent a substantial piece of this game. We can argue about whether these things should be computed and stored in the cloud, but I think there is a plausible, if imperfect, argument for doing so; Many players are involved and system resources are scarce relative to simulation complexity. Regardless, the use of the cloud in this game is for more than just to deter pirates. That much is clear. And it's also clear that EA cannot "simply remove the DRM" and expect people to have a full offline experience; this is a primarily multiplayer game. Indeed, this seems part of a trend in the games industry--that of bringing MMO(massively multiplayer online) experiences to more games. Call it social or something else, more games are working to get people to play with others. It's good business and actually creates some special experiences. In any case, EA/Maxis have clearly not executed the launch for SimCity well. With 10 years of pent-up demand, it would have been wise to provision more server side resources to keep the experience good. It's hard to keep up with so many users, and perhaps a longer beta period would have helped. But as a SimCity player and vet, I'll say that stripping out the online piece of this game doesn't make sense, and that piece was certainly designed for the benefit of gamers. It's not strictly DRM or EA milking their customers.
  • jfb 14y ago
    No, but it's hardly confidence inspiring for the brave new world of 100% micropayment coverage that EA wants to train us to enjoy.
  • reitzensteinm 14y ago
    I don't think you're adding clarity here. People are upset about the lack of a single player offline mode, which absolutely is about preventing unlicensed copies. There is no technical reason for its absence. The cloud based stuff sounds great, and if it were an optional extra that was unavailable at launch due to technical difficulties, I doubt you'd see a hundredth as much bad PR.
• deleted 14y ago
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• zachinglis 14y ago
  I can only speculate the designers said "Oh man, if we can interact with each other's city that'd be awesome" and someone higher up said "It'll always be on!" Everyone saw this coming. Everyone. I don't understand how they couldn't prepare better?
  • IheartApplesDix 14y ago
    Because EA doesn't care about their customers that much. There's no reason on doubling your launch fleet for a few days when it will hardly effect the sales of your game. Save money and let customers bitch for a few days, just more free press about your game.
• salahxanadu 14y ago
  I wonder if this is just a way to get around all of those horrible reviews. They'll probably put it up again soon with cleared reviews.
• anon1385 14y ago
  When a game requires an internet connection to work we call it DRM and slam it. When a text editor or spreadsheet requires an internet connection to run we call it innovation.
  • robinh 14y ago
    There is a significant difference between wanting to do something locally and an internet connection being required and wanting to do something on the internet because it works better than what you have locally.
  • dragondilesh 14y ago
    The situation isn't as simple as you put it. This time, there is single player game that shouldn't need forced interactivity with an internet connection. Compared to a text editor where the internet connection allowed multiple users to operate on it at the same time.
    • scarlson 14y ago
      That and I'm not spending 60$ for Google Docs access.
  • bsg75 14y ago
    What editor are you using that requires a live connection? - If its cloud based: apples vs oranges - If not, get a better editor. Online spreadsheets or docs allow you to export to a locally accessible format. SimCity does not.
  • n3rdy 14y ago
    > When a text editor or spreadsheet requires an internet connection to run we call it innovation. I would be raging if my text editor required an internet connection for me to access my local files. Al Capone rage even.
  • unsignedint 14y ago
    Requiring and supporting are two completely different animals. If text editors and spreadsheets actually requiring you to have an internet connection, then I can see people criticizing about it.
• josephv 14y ago
  I have played the last couple nights (since release) on the West Europe 2 server though I'm on the East Coast. Not ideal I guess but I've had to do the same thing for other games. Hopefully it still works when I get home in a few hours :) Speaking of "broken" memes. I used to play SimCity like you, until it got an arrow in the cloud. Improve on that please.
• srehnborg 14y ago
  I am waiting to see what comes of this before I buy. However, They had overloaded server issues during the 1 hour beta AND the extended 4 hour beta leading up to the launch. Hoping they can get this resolved quickly. I think we're dreaming if the fix will involve a non-DRM offline mode.
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• trothamel 14y ago
  To me, the problems we see today will pale in comparison with the problems people will experience years from now. If the game is unplayable today, what will it be like when EA decides that keeping the servers running is unprofitable, and turns those servers off? (I think there's some sort of analog to historical preservation of art and buildings here.)
• openforce 14y ago
  Wow, Upwards of 800 amazingly dumb people on the review page. Didn't they see the first 100 reviews <i>before</i> making the purchase?
  • DanBC 14y ago
    Perhaps they bought in advance?
    • openforce 14y ago
      Thats even worse
• jader201 14y ago
  The fundamental problem with Sim City is that it is historically a single-player, offline experience. And it didn't help that this is the first true Sim City we've seen since 2003 (Sim City 4) and many media hyped this game to be possibly the best Sim City yet, and the most realistic city simulation experience. Yes, there may be technical limitations that required processing to happen on EA servers. And yes, they make it clear on the front of the box that an internet connection is required to play the game.[1] But most people purchasing this game expected that for the most part, this would be primarily a single player just like the previous titles, and that the internet connection is only required for DRM and/or occasional online interaction. They don't realize that a lot of the engine lives in the cloud. So there is a different level of disappointment because of the expectations that were there. If this had been a follow-up to an MMO, they would have known that the game heavily depended on server performance, and it may have been a little more forgivable. But most people don't understand why the game doesn't work. "Just disable DRM for now. Or disable multiplayer interactions. Make it offline only for now." What I can't believe is that this isn't just minor hiccups with the launch -- this is catastrophic failure. Why couldn't better load testing simulate and predict what they're seeing today? Regardless, as many have said, this will ruin the name of Sim City, at least for a period, and will cause even more bitterness with EA than what already exists. [1]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/815mDnNUDhL._SL1121_.jpg http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/815mDnNUDhL._SL1121_.j...
• dalacv 14y ago
  But they promised...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLYLmsEBGug http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLYLmsEBGug
• kaoD 14y ago
  Well, that's what you get for buying a DRMed game. Stand for your rights.
• smogzer 14y ago
  dwarf fortress is the new simcity.
• bane 14y ago
  I was thinking of buying this, but meh, never mind. (may as well just wait for the cracked version and enjoy the game with more convenience) http://www.reddit.com/r/simcity http://www.reddit.com/r/simcity seems to be summing up the problem pretty nicely with some clever use of the curved roads.
• michaelrhansen 14y ago
  I have been amazed at the interest level in this game. I shared in the excitement and could not wait for the Mac version. Now the bad backlash, bugs, and generally horrific reviews have significantly deflated my interest. Gaming startups - make a better one!! ;)
  • rabbidrabbit 14y ago
    like this http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1584821767/civitas-plan-develop-and-manage-the-city-of-your-d http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1584821767/civitas-plan-...
• danso 14y ago
  I haven't been paying much attention to SCV except that it seemed to be generating a lot of hype and excitement...so I'm kind of confused why the game has to be so intricately tied into whatever (apparently faulty) online service that EA has setup. I mean, besides the DRM. I don't get why my fake city has to be attached to a world of fake cities if all I want to do is play in the sandbox. Didn't the designers/executives consider that many people would be perfectly fine playing alone? And then slowly rolling out the multiplayer features? I doubt we'll see it, but it'd be great to see a post-mortem of the actual bug. Was it load-related or just something extremely boneheaded?
  • robinh 14y ago
    "I mean, besides the DRM." But that's the core issue, really.
    • danso 14y ago
      No, the core issue is: the game doesn't work. Lets face it, gamers would still be buying the game with DRM if it didn't crash. If what you mean is: "Crashing (to the point of unplayability) is an inherent consequence of DRM"...the many wildly successful games that have DRM would indicate otherwise
      • robinh 14y ago
        I didn't mean any of that. I meant that DRM is the reason one would implement constant-onlineness into a game that should also (mostly, even) work as a single player game. My apologies if my use of the word 'issue' suggested something different.
• cmelbye 14y ago
  I was initially apprehensive about the server-based architecture of the game. However, after playing it for a few hours and being pleasantly surprised, I can now see why they did it. There's a concepts of multiplayer regions with cities that contact each other, and it's more than simply visiting the city. It's a full economic simulation in which you can sell excess electricity supplies to other cities, lend them public services such as police or fire protection, build mass transit like commuter rail between cities, etc. Long story short, I was surprised to find that there are a lot of features that legitimately need a server. I initially expected the server-based system to be purely for the purposes of DRM, but anyone playing it can probably determine that it's a bit more than that. Now if they can wrinkle out the bugs and get the servers running (which is, don't get me wrong, a huge huge huge issue right now), I'll be happy.
  • hkolek 14y ago
    > you can sell excess electricity supplies to other cities, lend them public services such as police or fire protection, build mass transit like commuter rail between cities, etc. That was already possible in Sim City 4. Even in older versions (Sim City 2000 iirc) you had neighbor cities and could buy and sell utilities. Those features work just as well when controlled by AI. There is just no reason not to implement it aside from the DRM benefit.
• aoetr 14y ago
  Hahaha, have these guys ever heard of TESTING? You know, it's not rocket science to create a program that creates say 10000 connections to the server, does some prerecorded game actions using a minimal implementation of the protocol, and run it on 1000 Amazon EC2 instances simultaneously... et voila, 10 million client connections just like real launch! Hopefully they'll get sued for this.
• DigitalSea 14y ago
  "Guess what? If you'd love to experience the nonstop thrills and excitement of SimCity, then please remove $60 from your bank and promptly pay someone to kick you repeatedly in the friggin' mouth." - Ouch! Once again EA fucks up another great gaming franchise that could have made them a lot of money by implementing DRM that doesn't work. I know Blizzard did this with Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2, but at least their servers could handle the load... Not surprised. EA is a failure of a company being run into the ground by greedy and paranoid CEO's who essentially treat their customers like criminals. I feel sorry for the developers who obviously did an amazing job, the new Simcity seems like a well-built game with smart AI developed by no doubt some of the smartest minds in development, such a shame most people will never get a chance to play the game before demanding refunds. The uninformed will blame the developers but it's the fault of EA itself, not the developers who did an amazing job. I want to play this game, but I'm going to download the cracked version when it's released instead because it'll actually work.
  • omni 14y ago
    What was wrong with Starcraft 2?
    • DigitalSea 14y ago
      Nothing. That is my point. Starcraft have always on DRM, but they did it right. You need an internet connection for single play in SC2 as well as Diablo 3 and they did it right at least. There were a few teething problems, but it worked.
• cstrat 14y ago
  I really, really wanted to buy this game. Since I was young I've always loved the SimCity series and was hoping this would be great... I was even going to buy a new PC just to play it. Fuck you EA - you're disappointing my inner child!
• Fargren 14y ago
  EA is offering refunds but only in some cases, with a very haphazard criteria: http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18gs2vgs50fjijpg/original.jpg http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18gs2vgs50fjijpg/original.jp...
  • eurleif 14y ago
    Wow. "you can of course request a refund" in a press release actually means you can request a refund, but it will be refused? Just... wow.
  • zcid 14y ago
    I think that has to be the most amazing customer service interaction I have ever seen. I hope EA's payment processor hits them hard over all those charge backs.
    • Aissen 14y ago
      Unlikely. If you're on Origin and ask your bank a chargeback, they'll block your account and hold all your legally bought games hostage. That would be the same as any cloud service(PSN, Steam, Google Play, App Store…), which is a shame, and should be forbidden by law since the consumer gets zero protection in this case.
  • ep103 14y ago
    You could most likely just call your credit card company and dispute the charge. If you bought the game, then can't connect to the server, then EA never actually gave you the game. Provided you give up and remove the game from your account, of course.
• maerF0x0 14y ago
  And this is why I basically do not pre order anything. If I do, its pretty much considered charity in my mind (eg a kickstart -esque situation)
• blaines 14y ago
  I'm not sure if this will work but there's a petition for EA to remove the server requirement... http://www.change.org/petitions/electronic-arts-inc-remove-always-online-drm-from-simcity-and-future-games http://www.change.org/petitions/electronic-arts-inc-remove-a...
• jasonlingx 14y ago
  When torrenting your game offers a better user experience than paying for it, well...
• CognitiveLens 14y ago
  Looks like it's available now - any confirmation that they stopped selling it over 'game issues', or if that was just conjecture to get more clicks?
• Osiris 14y ago
  Most single-player games that have an multi-player or online component also have an offline mode for single-player use. This game should have been a combination of a basic single-player mode (campaign style, maybe with goals to accomplish, etc) in addition to a multi-player mode that would allow for online play with other cities. At least with a single-player mode you know there is a part of the game you'll always be able to play, long after the online components have been discontinued. Conceptually, the online mode sounds pretty intriguing but, obviously, was poorly executed.
• overgard 14y ago
  I wish I had read about this before I bought the game. I feel screwed over, I would have never bought the game if I knew it was like this. There's something the game industry doesn't get in their zeal for control over users. (And lets be clear, this is about control, not just about piracy.) Here's what the game industry doesn't get: your barrier to entry is already exceptionally high. You might be able to get away with this in the short term, but it's a bad long term proposition, because I'm almost always going to choose convenience over quality (and I'm not alone). Asking me to pay $60, wait for a 12GB download, and have a very powerful rig is already a huge stretch. When you factor this mess in it's just not worth my time. I'd rather go get an indie game, or play a flash game. It's just not worth my time to deal with this, even if the game itself is impressive.
  • dman 14y ago
    Not too late for a refund
• deleted 14y ago
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• SkittlesNTwix 14y ago
  The servers being down, I can almost forgive, but this whole affair with the DRM is very puzzling. EA has a history of angering users who buy their games. And yet, for apparently no good reason, they have incorporated into their latest offering the one element that is guaranteed to anger virtually everyone who buys their game. It's pretty simple - I paid money for your game. Now, I own it. EA, maybe you need a tutorial on how money works. Let's not get side-tracked and start talking about whether or not I own my songs on iTunes or any of these more entrenched markets. If I buy a video game, I should be able to play it 10 years later, even if the EA Sim City Servers are long-gone and now devoted to keeping track of whatever the latest terrible incarnation of Madden does. I didn't buy Civ V (not EA) because of DRM. I haven't bought other games because of DRM. I wanted to buy into the Sim City franchise again but I'm not buying Sim City V because of DRM. You just lost a sale and likely a future customer.
• Maven911 14y ago
  NO Longer Valid - Amazon smartened up (in terms of running a profit making business) and decided to resell the game, its the number 1 seller now after all
• throwaway420 14y ago
  The programmers will probably be thrown under the bus for this instead of the suits who dictated the game's stupid social direction and always-on DRM, but I'm glad that this game is so far looking like an epic failure. Gaming companies need to be punished in the marketplace for rampant stupidity. They deserve this game to flop, and it's good for gaming as a whole if this is an epic failure so EA will learn a lesson. (Though I have doubts that a company as thick-headed as EA will learn anything positive from this)
• weixiyen 14y ago
  EA for the most part does not respect the player experience. How is it 2013 and NFL 2K5 is still the best NFL sim?
• jiggy2011 14y ago
  I'm going to disagree slightly. The primary "DRM" in this game is not DRM in the sense of something that attempts to control your computer in such a way as you can not make copies or run an unauthorised version. The DRM here is about moving game logic to a server under EA's control. I think this is the correct way to do DRM in that it works and does not require locked down client platforms or invasive rootkits. I would much prefer to pay for something as a service than have some third party try and take control of my computer. After all, people don't complain about 37 signals , google or World of warcraft for their business models which essentially amount to the same sort of "DRM". The issues here seem to be that: EA didn't plan for the demand and make sure that enough servers were available. Since there is no monthly service fee, there will come a point at which it is no longer economical for EA to run the servers. This will make the game unplayable unless there is some plan by which they will release the server software for download after X years. There are certain expectations built around the SimCity brand, mainly that the games have high and timeless replayability and that they can be played in isolation. I wonder if the game had been named "Simcity online" would have changed the reception?
• meisterbrendan 14y ago
  Here's a thought: if you can't get your act together with servers during a launch, stagger the launch. IE, when you buy your game, you have a place in a queue, and when there is enough server capacity to support you, you are let into the system. That way, you can change gamers expectations such that they are being let into an exclusive party, not that the game that they purchased is defective.
• iuguy 14y ago
  After the Tetris debacle[1] on iOS and putting obtrusive adverts into their iOS games for new ones despite me paying for them (a cardinal sin IMHO) combined with endless DRM debacles and horror stories about how employees were treated, I took the decision to never buy or install another EA game again. Electronic Arts (which EA is the mutated-gollum-like growth of) was actually a software developer that was based on the idea of the developers being artists. They shared lavish profits with them, put the developers' faces on boxes and made some amazing games. If you want to see some highlights of Electronic Arts' back catalogue, take a look at these: * M.U.L.E - http://www.worldofmule.net/tiki-index.php http://www.worldofmule.net/tiki-index.php * Desert Strike - http://www.mobygames.com/game/desert-strike-return-to-the-gulf http://www.mobygames.com/game/desert-strike-return-to-the-gu... * Populous - http://www.mobygames.com/game/populous http://www.mobygames.com/game/populous * The Bard's Tale - http://bardstale.poverellomedia.com/ http://bardstale.poverellomedia.com/ * F/A-18 Interceptor - http://www.mobygames.com/game/fa-18-interceptor http://www.mobygames.com/game/fa-18-interceptor * Indy 500 - http://www.mobygames.com/game/indianapolis-500-the-simulation http://www.mobygames.com/game/indianapolis-500-the-simulatio... * Road Rash - http://www.mobygames.com/game/road-rash http://www.mobygames.com/game/road-rash A lot (but not all) of these were games developed when Trip Hawkins was in charge. Trip Hawkins went on to found the failed 3DO console, which is where a lot of the modern 3D versions of the popular franchises (NFS, FIFA etc.) first started out. If you don't like DRM, being nickel and dimed, or scummy company practices. I highly recommend you boycott EA and spend your money on the plenty of City building alternatives on Steam[2] instead. [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_(mobile_video_game)#App_Store_removal/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_(mobile_video_game)#App_... [2] - http://store.steampowered.com/ http://store.steampowered.com/
• pkorzeniewski 14y ago
  It would be hilarious if a cracked version allowing offline play would appear on TPB :)
• cedricd 14y ago
  Looks like it's available again
• Mahn 14y ago
  Looks like Amazon sells it again.
• smsm42 14y ago
  I still see "buy and download" button and it says "Available". It has a warning about connectivity problems but the game seems to be still available for sale.
• AllenWalker 14y ago
  You should post a link that matches your headline. Nothing at that link says "Amazon stops selling Sim City V over game issues"