4 ms·

> Also we might try to promote different tiers of Disney+ itself within the app so to the extent you see that as an ad, that’s an exception to ‘ad-free’” Yes I

> Also we might try to promote different tiers of Disney+ itself within the app so to the extent you see that as an ad, that’s an exception to ‘ad-free’” Yes I see that as an ad. Do you not? Does anyone not? And if I'm on the highest paying ad free plan, what are they promoting to me?

jmathai 5d ago
I’ve been a paying customer of Dropbox’s consumer plan for over a decade. Each time I visit their website I am greeted with a full page modal ad asking me to upgrade to a different plan I have no use for. I’ve dismissed it every time. I don’t mind being shown that ad once. But it bothers me that they don’t care enough about my experience using their product to provide a “never show this again” option. Or just use some metrics to know that if I dismiss it 50 times then maybe I’m not interested.
- avhception 5d ago
  Do you want to upgrade now or later? Will you upgrade now or do I need to nag you to death?
- sbarre 5d ago
  [dead]
- Gareth321 5d ago
  This is a bigger problem than it may appear. The business lifecycle is well understood, whereby a company innovates, expands, and then when it has a sufficiently large customer base, it monetises. I.e. it enshitifies its products - making them more expensive over time relative to the value. This process is death by a thousand cuts. A PM might see that having the modal you hate show every time you load the site increases conversion by 3%. That's $1M ARR you just made the company! Wow! You get a bonus and a promotion! The problem is you erode customer sentiment by some undefined unit. Many people think NPS measures this, but it doesn't. That measures how many people love and hate the product. It omits the vast majority of people in the middle. They just add it to the increasing list of annoyances until one day there are so many annoyances that they leave. At that time it's very difficult for the company to understand why the user churned. It wasn't any one thing. It was a concerted effort over years to squeeze every cent out of the user at minimum cost.
  - slyzmud 5d ago
    > At that time it's very difficult for the company to understand why the user churned. It wasn't any one thing. It's very easy to know for people inside the company who actually care about the product and for their clients. It is really hard for directors and VP that anything they understand are numbers. If I say "hey this modal/pop up is making customers angry" they are going to ask how much they care (is there even an unit for that?) and how much revenue is lost. The only way for them to handle a project is creating a goal for next Q and assigning people, when in most cases what you need is actually the opposite. The problem is not that no one knows how to fix it, the problem is that managers organize around big problems and become useless at improving the small things or details. They become blind. It happened to me 100 times. They do not want things to be fixed unless there's a clear revenue increase, which is stupid.
    - SoftTalker 5d ago
      The concept is called "goodwill" and it can be recognized in the balance sheet.
Gareth321 5d ago
I strongly agree, and it frustrates me when people and companies claim that advertising their own products "doesn't count." I cancelled my YouTube Premium plan because of ads. These are all the ads they permit on Premium, despite advertising everywhere that Premium removes all ads: * Ads in YouTube feeds for other google products and services. * Ads underneath videos for products from the channel owner. * Sponsorships within videos from the channel owner. * Advertising overlays (supported IN THE APP BY GOOGLE) for products and services from the channel owner. * Email advertisements for Google products and services. * Community post advertisements from channel owners which show up in the YouTube feed. I contacted support to enquire and they state these are not considered advertising.
- sbarre 5d ago
  I mean, the stuff that's in the video is not really under Google's control. Are you suggesting that the burden should be on channel owners to upload variations of their videos that don't include sponsor blocks? That's a bit onerous. My commercial agreement is with YouTube, not with the video creator. If you don't like ads from creators, don't watch those channels? YT Premium does provide the "skip ahead" functionality that almost always jumps over sponsor blocks. I will say I've been a YT Premium subscriber for years and I've never seen any ads for other Google services in my feed, and I don't get advert emails either.
  - cwillu 5d ago
    If google can't provide an ad-free product, they shouldn't be selling an ad-free product.
  - Gareth321 5d ago
    > I mean, the stuff that's in the video is not really under Google's control. It is completely within Google's control. They have a hundred pages of terms of services, dictating everything the content creators may and may not do and say, down to individual words, symbols, and opinions. If Google wanted to, they could tell content creators to stop adding sponsorships. I understand you'd make less money. > If you don't like ads from creators, don't watch those channels? I stopped paying YouTube and I use SponsorBlock now. You're not entitled to my time or attention or money. The problem is ultimately that Google advertises an ad free experience, which it's not. I'd be willing to pay for an ad free experience.
semiquaver 5d ago
I grew up with the Disney channel on cable as a kid in the 90s. Disney channel at that time was ad-free except for cross-promotions for other Disney channel shows, most of which I (as a kid who liked the Disney channel) wanted to know more about. I have HBO Now/max/go/whatever and before most shows there’s a skippable promo for HBO stuff. So yeah, I don’t think this is new and Disney+ as it is now is way more ad-free than either of those, so I’m not surprised they are trying to nudge the status quo back to a historical equilibrium; it’s just what these companies do I’ll always pay more to see fewer ads. My kids see far, far, far fewer ads than I and my peers did growing up watching linear TV in the 90s and I’m going to keep it that way. If Disney+ gets in the way of that I’ll stop paying them and stop using their service, easy as that.
- cogman10 5d ago
  Anyone that doesn't see the obvious play here probably wasn't alive when cable was the "ad free" tv option. These media companies cannot help themselves. Advert money is very tantalizing and they'll always want to find ways to sneak it in whenever and wherever they can.
- thesuitonym 5d ago
  I remember those days, and when Cartoon Network was the same. I didn't mind it then because, like you, I found the promos were a great way to know what was on the channel at different times. Especially in the age before on-screen guides. But there are a few crucial differences between then and now: The ad spots were there to keep the timetables accurate, which is no longer necessary. They also served as a way to let you know what else was on the channel, which again is no longer necessary because that app opens to a menu of all available programming. And, now this is the important part, back then I wasn't specifically paying for ad-free access. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, my Jellyfin server is about to get much more use.
- alt227 5d ago
  > My kids see far, far, far fewer ads than I and my peers did growing up But now these are targeted ads based on browsing data for ad profiles linked to your IP and devices. IMO just a few of these are far worse than the general run of commercials we used to have on TV. Corporations obviously think so too otherwise we would still have that.
bena 5d ago
One of the most egregious examples of this that's happened to me was with the DVD set of the second or third season of Mad Men. One of the unskippable pre-menu ads was for the next season. And I didn't know what to say. Either I like the series and I'm going to buy the next season or I don't and I won't.
deleted 5d ago
[deleted]
dijit 5d ago
I get super bent out of shape when Apple TV+ advertises shows before the one I am trying to watch; even sometimes advertising the show that I am trying to watch itself and spoiling things. I have actually cancelled my subscription because of this.
- smelendez 5d ago
  Yeah, I actually canceled Netflix when they started making it impossible to look at the available shows without seeing previews of each of them. I am trying to leisurely decide what I want to watch, not have 15 different actors scream catchphrases at me.
  - loloquwowndueo 5d ago
    I don’t see this maybe because my Netflix app is older (on a 2018-era Roku tv). But it is annoying as shit on my friends tv with chrome cast.
  - layer8 5d ago
    You can turn it off: https://help.netflix.com/en/node/2102 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/2102. Does that setting not work for you?
- k2enemy 5d ago
  I've talked to Apple support about this. Their website says... Apple Originals are always commercial-free. But you are forced to watch ads for other shows before viewing an Apple original. The support person said that because the ads are before the show you are trying to watch, that the show itself is indeed commercial-free. Language lawyering at its finest.
- bravoetch 5d ago
  My journey went from downloading movies and TV shows to paying for Netflix, Apple, and Prime. Then back to torrents to avoid all the trailers and ads and curated feed. It's so peaceful now.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5d ago
smelendez 5d ago
Yeah, those kinds of ads are always aggravating to me because you’re not even making money by showing them to me. They feel like a display of power more than anything else.
etothet 5d ago
I agree. I noticed recently an ad directly inside of 1Password. I’ve paid for a 1Password subscription since 2013, and have had a family plan for many years. I know the company changed hands several years back after AgileBits sold to VC, but this type of disrespect caused me to cancel my membership. There are plenty of alternatives that haven’t turned their focus to the “Enterprise” and aren’t trying to extract as much money as possible from their paying customers.
- isaacaggrey 5d ago
  What would you say is comparable experience wise to 1Password? I’ve found particularly the 1Password Family plan there’s not really a good alternative of rolling with KeepassX, Bitwarden, etc. The answer could be nothing and I still respect the choice to speak with your wallet.
  - JoshTriplett 5d ago
    If you don't need to share passwords between people (other than manually), Firefox Sync is perfect.
  - thesuitonym 5d ago
    The closest I've found is Bitwarden, but even that isn't quite as good as 1Password.
  - Gareth321 5d ago
    Bitwarden, while not quite as polished, works well. If you have your own server at home you can even self-host, which I do. It's an open source server side app called Vaultwarden [https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden] which connects to the Bitwarden app. I think the iCloud password manager also works pretty well, provided you're using Apple products.
jghn 5d ago
I may be an outlier but I don't really mind being shown a relatively short ad before watching something. I'm almost never really paying attention yet anyways. Like yes, I'd prefer it not to exist but it doesn't cause me to get into a fit of rage. But ads in the middle of something I'm watching? Fuck right off with that.
hdgvhicv 5d ago
Yes I see those, and adverts for other services (watch this program etc) as adverts. I don’t see adverts embedded in content as adverts. Be sure I’m watching the World Cup on bbc and see an advert on the players shirt doesn’t mean I want my money back, I’d rather we had no adverts, but it’s not unreasonable.
serbuvlad 5d ago
If I use service X I am MUCH less annoyed by an advertisement of subservice X.Y than I am by an advertisement of Nord VPN and Raid Shadow Legends.
sandworm101 5d ago
An add, but no more than catching a glimps of a restaurant long after one has ordered. When standing in a shop it is normal to see prices for other products on offer.
deleted 5d ago
[deleted]
jasonlotito 5d ago
> Does anyone not? People turned a blind eye to Apple advertising it's own services in it's products for years. I saw people defend here, on HN. So, while yes, it's advertising, Disney is far from the first to do this. I'm not saying it's right, only that people who claim to be opposed to ads are accepting of the type of ads we are discussing. > if I'm on the highest paying ad free plan, what are they promoting to me? I'm assuming they aren't showing you ads for the plan you are on.
mattbee 5d ago
The BBC in the UK makes a great play of having "no ads" but 6Music (their indie music station) has constant cross-promotions interrupting the music, sometimes for jarring TV murder shows. Cross-promotion is just as annoying as ads for insurance, I hate it!
nonethewiser 5d ago
> Yes I see that as an ad. Do you not? You are implying something false. That he’s suggesting thats not an ad. Hes not suggesting that at all. What he’s suggesting is that that’s very different from Disney gating or interspersing movies with ads. Which it is. You may disagree with that but you’re strawmanning him.
deleted 5d ago
[deleted]
charcircuit 5d ago
It is an upsell. It is a sales tactic. Sales isn't the same thing as advertising even though they both are trying to get you to buy something.

jmathai 5d ago

I’ve been a paying customer of Dropbox’s consumer plan for over a decade. Each time I visit their website I am greeted with a full page modal ad asking me to upgrade to a different plan I have no use for. I’ve dismissed it every time. I don’t mind being shown that ad once. But it bothers me that they don’t care enough about my experience using their product to provide a “never show this again” option. Or just use some metrics to know that if I dismiss it 50 times then maybe I’m not interested.

avhception 5d ago
Do you want to upgrade now or later? Will you upgrade now or do I need to nag you to death?
sbarre 5d ago
[dead]
Gareth321 5d ago
This is a bigger problem than it may appear. The business lifecycle is well understood, whereby a company innovates, expands, and then when it has a sufficiently large customer base, it monetises. I.e. it enshitifies its products - making them more expensive over time relative to the value. This process is death by a thousand cuts. A PM might see that having the modal you hate show every time you load the site increases conversion by 3%. That's $1M ARR you just made the company! Wow! You get a bonus and a promotion! The problem is you erode customer sentiment by some undefined unit. Many people think NPS measures this, but it doesn't. That measures how many people love and hate the product. It omits the vast majority of people in the middle. They just add it to the increasing list of annoyances until one day there are so many annoyances that they leave. At that time it's very difficult for the company to understand why the user churned. It wasn't any one thing. It was a concerted effort over years to squeeze every cent out of the user at minimum cost.
- slyzmud 5d ago
  > At that time it's very difficult for the company to understand why the user churned. It wasn't any one thing. It's very easy to know for people inside the company who actually care about the product and for their clients. It is really hard for directors and VP that anything they understand are numbers. If I say "hey this modal/pop up is making customers angry" they are going to ask how much they care (is there even an unit for that?) and how much revenue is lost. The only way for them to handle a project is creating a goal for next Q and assigning people, when in most cases what you need is actually the opposite. The problem is not that no one knows how to fix it, the problem is that managers organize around big problems and become useless at improving the small things or details. They become blind. It happened to me 100 times. They do not want things to be fixed unless there's a clear revenue increase, which is stupid.
  - SoftTalker 5d ago
    The concept is called "goodwill" and it can be recognized in the balance sheet.

Gareth321 5d ago

I strongly agree, and it frustrates me when people and companies claim that advertising their own products "doesn't count." I cancelled my YouTube Premium plan because of ads. These are all the ads they permit on Premium, despite advertising everywhere that Premium removes all ads: * Ads in YouTube feeds for other google products and services. * Ads underneath videos for products from the channel owner. * Sponsorships within videos from the channel owner. * Advertising overlays (supported IN THE APP BY GOOGLE) for products and services from the channel owner. * Email advertisements for Google products and services. * Community post advertisements from channel owners which show up in the YouTube feed. I contacted support to enquire and they state these are not considered advertising.

sbarre 5d ago
I mean, the stuff that's in the video is not really under Google's control. Are you suggesting that the burden should be on channel owners to upload variations of their videos that don't include sponsor blocks? That's a bit onerous. My commercial agreement is with YouTube, not with the video creator. If you don't like ads from creators, don't watch those channels? YT Premium does provide the "skip ahead" functionality that almost always jumps over sponsor blocks. I will say I've been a YT Premium subscriber for years and I've never seen any ads for other Google services in my feed, and I don't get advert emails either.
- cwillu 5d ago
  If google can't provide an ad-free product, they shouldn't be selling an ad-free product.
- Gareth321 5d ago
  > I mean, the stuff that's in the video is not really under Google's control. It is completely within Google's control. They have a hundred pages of terms of services, dictating everything the content creators may and may not do and say, down to individual words, symbols, and opinions. If Google wanted to, they could tell content creators to stop adding sponsorships. I understand you'd make less money. > If you don't like ads from creators, don't watch those channels? I stopped paying YouTube and I use SponsorBlock now. You're not entitled to my time or attention or money. The problem is ultimately that Google advertises an ad free experience, which it's not. I'd be willing to pay for an ad free experience.

semiquaver 5d ago

I grew up with the Disney channel on cable as a kid in the 90s. Disney channel at that time was ad-free except for cross-promotions for other Disney channel shows, most of which I (as a kid who liked the Disney channel) wanted to know more about. I have HBO Now/max/go/whatever and before most shows there’s a skippable promo for HBO stuff. So yeah, I don’t think this is new and Disney+ as it is now is way more ad-free than either of those, so I’m not surprised they are trying to nudge the status quo back to a historical equilibrium; it’s just what these companies do I’ll always pay more to see fewer ads. My kids see far, far, far fewer ads than I and my peers did growing up watching linear TV in the 90s and I’m going to keep it that way. If Disney+ gets in the way of that I’ll stop paying them and stop using their service, easy as that.

cogman10 5d ago
Anyone that doesn't see the obvious play here probably wasn't alive when cable was the "ad free" tv option. These media companies cannot help themselves. Advert money is very tantalizing and they'll always want to find ways to sneak it in whenever and wherever they can.
thesuitonym 5d ago
I remember those days, and when Cartoon Network was the same. I didn't mind it then because, like you, I found the promos were a great way to know what was on the channel at different times. Especially in the age before on-screen guides. But there are a few crucial differences between then and now: The ad spots were there to keep the timetables accurate, which is no longer necessary. They also served as a way to let you know what else was on the channel, which again is no longer necessary because that app opens to a menu of all available programming. And, now this is the important part, back then I wasn't specifically paying for ad-free access. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, my Jellyfin server is about to get much more use.
alt227 5d ago
> My kids see far, far, far fewer ads than I and my peers did growing up But now these are targeted ads based on browsing data for ad profiles linked to your IP and devices. IMO just a few of these are far worse than the general run of commercials we used to have on TV. Corporations obviously think so too otherwise we would still have that.

bena 5d ago

One of the most egregious examples of this that's happened to me was with the DVD set of the second or third season of Mad Men. One of the unskippable pre-menu ads was for the next season. And I didn't know what to say. Either I like the series and I'm going to buy the next season or I don't and I won't.

deleted 5d ago

[deleted]

dijit 5d ago

I get super bent out of shape when Apple TV+ advertises shows before the one I am trying to watch; even sometimes advertising the show that I am trying to watch itself and spoiling things. I have actually cancelled my subscription because of this.

smelendez 5d ago
Yeah, I actually canceled Netflix when they started making it impossible to look at the available shows without seeing previews of each of them. I am trying to leisurely decide what I want to watch, not have 15 different actors scream catchphrases at me.
- loloquwowndueo 5d ago
  I don’t see this maybe because my Netflix app is older (on a 2018-era Roku tv). But it is annoying as shit on my friends tv with chrome cast.
- layer8 5d ago
  You can turn it off: https://help.netflix.com/en/node/2102 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/2102. Does that setting not work for you?
k2enemy 5d ago
I've talked to Apple support about this. Their website says... Apple Originals are always commercial-free. But you are forced to watch ads for other shows before viewing an Apple original. The support person said that because the ads are before the show you are trying to watch, that the show itself is indeed commercial-free. Language lawyering at its finest.
bravoetch 5d ago
My journey went from downloading movies and TV shows to paying for Netflix, Apple, and Prime. Then back to torrents to avoid all the trailers and ads and curated feed. It's so peaceful now.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5d ago

smelendez 5d ago

Yeah, those kinds of ads are always aggravating to me because you’re not even making money by showing them to me. They feel like a display of power more than anything else.

etothet 5d ago

I agree. I noticed recently an ad directly inside of 1Password. I’ve paid for a 1Password subscription since 2013, and have had a family plan for many years. I know the company changed hands several years back after AgileBits sold to VC, but this type of disrespect caused me to cancel my membership. There are plenty of alternatives that haven’t turned their focus to the “Enterprise” and aren’t trying to extract as much money as possible from their paying customers.

isaacaggrey 5d ago
What would you say is comparable experience wise to 1Password? I’ve found particularly the 1Password Family plan there’s not really a good alternative of rolling with KeepassX, Bitwarden, etc. The answer could be nothing and I still respect the choice to speak with your wallet.
- JoshTriplett 5d ago
  If you don't need to share passwords between people (other than manually), Firefox Sync is perfect.
- thesuitonym 5d ago
  The closest I've found is Bitwarden, but even that isn't quite as good as 1Password.
- Gareth321 5d ago
  Bitwarden, while not quite as polished, works well. If you have your own server at home you can even self-host, which I do. It's an open source server side app called Vaultwarden [https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden] which connects to the Bitwarden app. I think the iCloud password manager also works pretty well, provided you're using Apple products.

jghn 5d ago

I may be an outlier but I don't really mind being shown a relatively short ad before watching something. I'm almost never really paying attention yet anyways. Like yes, I'd prefer it not to exist but it doesn't cause me to get into a fit of rage. But ads in the middle of something I'm watching? Fuck right off with that.

hdgvhicv 5d ago

Yes I see those, and adverts for other services (watch this program etc) as adverts. I don’t see adverts embedded in content as adverts. Be sure I’m watching the World Cup on bbc and see an advert on the players shirt doesn’t mean I want my money back, I’d rather we had no adverts, but it’s not unreasonable.

serbuvlad 5d ago

If I use service X I am MUCH less annoyed by an advertisement of subservice X.Y than I am by an advertisement of Nord VPN and Raid Shadow Legends.

sandworm101 5d ago

An add, but no more than catching a glimps of a restaurant long after one has ordered. When standing in a shop it is normal to see prices for other products on offer.

deleted 5d ago

[deleted]

jasonlotito 5d ago

> Does anyone not? People turned a blind eye to Apple advertising it's own services in it's products for years. I saw people defend here, on HN. So, while yes, it's advertising, Disney is far from the first to do this. I'm not saying it's right, only that people who claim to be opposed to ads are accepting of the type of ads we are discussing. > if I'm on the highest paying ad free plan, what are they promoting to me? I'm assuming they aren't showing you ads for the plan you are on.

mattbee 5d ago

The BBC in the UK makes a great play of having "no ads" but 6Music (their indie music station) has constant cross-promotions interrupting the music, sometimes for jarring TV murder shows. Cross-promotion is just as annoying as ads for insurance, I hate it!

nonethewiser 5d ago

> Yes I see that as an ad. Do you not? You are implying something false. That he’s suggesting thats not an ad. Hes not suggesting that at all. What he’s suggesting is that that’s very different from Disney gating or interspersing movies with ads. Which it is. You may disagree with that but you’re strawmanning him.

deleted 5d ago

[deleted]

charcircuit 5d ago

It is an upsell. It is a sales tactic. Sales isn't the same thing as advertising even though they both are trying to get you to buy something.