5 ms·

Personally, I just can’t find it in me to be that self-interested. It’s how other people oppose buildings near them because it blocks their view. I really don’t

by arjie 2mo ago

Personally, I just can’t find it in me to be that self-interested. It’s how other people oppose buildings near them because it blocks their view. I really don’t want to stop other people from writing software. If they want to use AI to do it so be it. That’ll be somewhat detrimental to me perhaps (which isn’t certain), but that’s okay. I’d rather attempt to adapt to a changing world.

koe123 2mo ago
Thats great, although understand that unionizing protects the more vulnerable of also the software engineered. You not advocating for your rights also means weakening others. Is it still self interested to unionized from that perspective?
smallerize 2mo ago
You may be surprised to know that residential areas in San Francisco are height limited, sometimes as short as 4 stories. They're not exactly anti-progress.
- BeetleB 2mo ago
  Height limiting is anti-progress, which was his point.
  - smallerize 2mo ago
    Ok SF needs somewhat higher-density housing. But wanting something good for yourself and your peers isn't anti-progress. If the benefits accrue to only a few people, it's not progress.
    - BeetleB 2mo ago
      > But wanting something good for yourself and your peers isn't anti-progress. It is if it makes it worse for everyone else.
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
lambda 2mo ago
I don't know that unions would necessarily negotiate for no use of AI. The SAG-AFRA deals don't preclude all use of AI; they just requre consent and negotiation in certain cases. A union doesn't give you unilateral power; it just gives you a better seat at the bargaining table. Capital pools its resources to negotiate better as a single bloc; why shouldn't labor as well?
- nurettin 2mo ago
  I don't have a voice or likeness in my code. Sure, I have a very specific style in all the code I wrote for the past couple of decades, but you can achieve the same outputs with completely orthogonal styles as well. (like AoS vs SoA) so what would I even negotiate for when everything I ever thought of got distilled into neural network weights to be high-pressure sprayed to the masses?
  - bayindirh 2mo ago
    > so what would I even negotiate for when everything I ever thought of got distilled into neural network weights to be high-pressure sprayed to the masses? For your unique approach to the problems at hand. Yes, 90% of the code written is CRUD, but when it's not, how it's solved matters. This is why we have grown with id Software games. They solved the problems, created new paths and methods for limited hardware for their time. This is why we praised DivX and XviD back in the day. They solved problems again which are caused by the limits of the computers. The way one solves problems matter, makes one valuable. This is why we do research and create new ways to do things. In short, your creativity is being sold/sprayed to masses.
  - roosterIllusi0n 2mo ago
    Then do it. Hypothetically claiming the job can be automated as an excuse to pay people less is older than everyone alive today. Lying to exploit workers is nothing new. Until you actually remove the need for a human, you have to pay full price for human labor. Which if you used AI is never really going to happen. Someone has to evaluate what AI creates to make sure it does what was asked. This trend of not prosecuting crimes conducted by AI cannot last forever. The CEO would be the only one arrestable as the CEO is the only person with decision power in the company.
iAMkenough 2mo ago
> Personally, I just can’t find it in me to be that self-interested. Yes, exactly. Do not advocate for yourself and your colleagues by joining them in a united front. Your voice does not matter. You will continue to adapt to widening wage disparities. You will accept a pay cut and increased productivity goals and be happy to continue adapting as your cost of living keeps on climbing.
brendoelfrendo 2mo ago
This is the first time I've heard someone argue that unionizing is a self-interested pursuit. It's called "collective bargaining" for a reason; workers who cooperate in negotiations with their employers have more leverage than those who negotiate individually. The entire point is to work together for the betterment of the group!
- jackdoe 2mo ago
  their point is while the 'group' wins, the rest of the world loses. localized gains, distributed loss.
  - computerliker 2mo ago
    as an art enjoyer, i do not feel that having less media written, drawn, or voiced by a computer is a loss. a computer can never be sad or horny or have taste. it can only make product. i also think artists should be paid living wages with good working conditions. thank you SAG-AFTRA, WGA, IATSE, AEMI and Teamsters.
    - drdaeman 2mo ago
      > a computer can never be sad or horny or have taste So far ;-)
    - miki123211 2mo ago
      > a computer can never be sad or horny or have taste Neither can a record player. Nevertheless, we consume recorded music.
      - Timon3 2mo ago
        Surely you must be aware that record players don't compose the music they are playing?
        optimisticedits 2mo ago
jplusequalt 2mo ago
>Personally, I just can’t find it in me to be that self-interested Caring about your ability to pay your bills, and support your family is "self-interested" in the same way that choosing to not drive into oncoming traffic is "self-interested".
fugigigjfn 2mo ago
[dead]
popalchemist 2mo ago
Has it occurred to you that it isn't only self-interest but concern for others that drives collective bargaining? It's essentialy a way for the little guys to stand up to the 1% to fight against the unending series of abuses and diminishment of the average person's ability to earn a livable wage and work under fair conditions.
- timr 2mo ago
  Yes. But there's a clear difference between, say, stealing someone's voice, identity or intellectual property, and preventing someone from using automation to do labor. The former is obviously unfair to the person whose identity is stolen. The latter is sour grapes from people who want to control the future. I also can't bring myself to get incensed over someone using a robot to write code. It's literally the modern equivalent of smashing knitting looms.
  - popalchemist 2mo ago
    You keep framing it as getting incensed over other people using ai to write code; but that isn't what it's about. A dev union would not attempt that; it would attempt to ensure quality of life for your class of people (and their families) as much as possible. It isn't about policing entire industries or other entities; it is about DEFENDING those who they would, do, and always have exploited when binding contracts or legislation don't prevent them from doing so. Union = a group of people defending their rights and that includes the right to a life that isn't at the utter mercy of perpetual enshittification due to the infinite mechanical plodding of heartless (by definition) megacorporations that would never hesitate to eradicate peoples' livelihoods and treat humans as material for the orphan grinder if they could get away with it. And by the way, they do, if you haven't noticed.
    - timr 2mo ago
      > it would attempt to ensure quality of life for your class of people (and their families) as much as possible. What is “your class of people”, and why is it threatened by what other people do with coding robots? You can try to dress it up as an intellectual argument, but at root it’s the same thing that the luddites were trying to do: defending your preferred lifestyle from technological advances. We, the ditch diggers of the world, support your unqualified resistance to the use of steam shovels! Fewer holes, slower!
croon 2mo ago
I'm unsure how you reach the conclusion of "self-interest". Unions are about collective bargaining power, reaching (ideally) what's best for most of the people it represents, even if it's detrimental to you specifically.
LeBit 2mo ago
Try to think about other people a bit. You are part of a whole. You are not alone. Saying you don’t mind to adapt is insulting.
- cindyllm 2mo ago
  [dead]
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
qmmmur 2mo ago
Right, but in your apathy there is a well organised group of capitalists who are vying to instrumentalise your existence. A union is just levelling the playing field.

by arjie 2mo ago

koe123 2mo ago

Thats great, although understand that unionizing protects the more vulnerable of also the software engineered. You not advocating for your rights also means weakening others. Is it still self interested to unionized from that perspective?

smallerize 2mo ago

You may be surprised to know that residential areas in San Francisco are height limited, sometimes as short as 4 stories. They're not exactly anti-progress.

BeetleB 2mo ago
Height limiting is anti-progress, which was his point.
- smallerize 2mo ago
  Ok SF needs somewhat higher-density housing. But wanting something good for yourself and your peers isn't anti-progress. If the benefits accrue to only a few people, it's not progress.
  - BeetleB 2mo ago
    > But wanting something good for yourself and your peers isn't anti-progress. It is if it makes it worse for everyone else.
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]

lambda 2mo ago

I don't know that unions would necessarily negotiate for no use of AI. The SAG-AFRA deals don't preclude all use of AI; they just requre consent and negotiation in certain cases. A union doesn't give you unilateral power; it just gives you a better seat at the bargaining table. Capital pools its resources to negotiate better as a single bloc; why shouldn't labor as well?

nurettin 2mo ago
I don't have a voice or likeness in my code. Sure, I have a very specific style in all the code I wrote for the past couple of decades, but you can achieve the same outputs with completely orthogonal styles as well. (like AoS vs SoA) so what would I even negotiate for when everything I ever thought of got distilled into neural network weights to be high-pressure sprayed to the masses?
- bayindirh 2mo ago
  > so what would I even negotiate for when everything I ever thought of got distilled into neural network weights to be high-pressure sprayed to the masses? For your unique approach to the problems at hand. Yes, 90% of the code written is CRUD, but when it's not, how it's solved matters. This is why we have grown with id Software games. They solved the problems, created new paths and methods for limited hardware for their time. This is why we praised DivX and XviD back in the day. They solved problems again which are caused by the limits of the computers. The way one solves problems matter, makes one valuable. This is why we do research and create new ways to do things. In short, your creativity is being sold/sprayed to masses.
- roosterIllusi0n 2mo ago
  Then do it. Hypothetically claiming the job can be automated as an excuse to pay people less is older than everyone alive today. Lying to exploit workers is nothing new. Until you actually remove the need for a human, you have to pay full price for human labor. Which if you used AI is never really going to happen. Someone has to evaluate what AI creates to make sure it does what was asked. This trend of not prosecuting crimes conducted by AI cannot last forever. The CEO would be the only one arrestable as the CEO is the only person with decision power in the company.

iAMkenough 2mo ago

> Personally, I just can’t find it in me to be that self-interested. Yes, exactly. Do not advocate for yourself and your colleagues by joining them in a united front. Your voice does not matter. You will continue to adapt to widening wage disparities. You will accept a pay cut and increased productivity goals and be happy to continue adapting as your cost of living keeps on climbing.

brendoelfrendo 2mo ago

This is the first time I've heard someone argue that unionizing is a self-interested pursuit. It's called "collective bargaining" for a reason; workers who cooperate in negotiations with their employers have more leverage than those who negotiate individually. The entire point is to work together for the betterment of the group!

jackdoe 2mo ago
their point is while the 'group' wins, the rest of the world loses. localized gains, distributed loss.
- computerliker 2mo ago
  as an art enjoyer, i do not feel that having less media written, drawn, or voiced by a computer is a loss. a computer can never be sad or horny or have taste. it can only make product. i also think artists should be paid living wages with good working conditions. thank you SAG-AFTRA, WGA, IATSE, AEMI and Teamsters.
  - drdaeman 2mo ago
    > a computer can never be sad or horny or have taste So far ;-)
  - miki123211 2mo ago
    > a computer can never be sad or horny or have taste Neither can a record player. Nevertheless, we consume recorded music.
    - Timon3 2mo ago
      Surely you must be aware that record players don't compose the music they are playing?
      - optimisticedits 2mo ago

jplusequalt 2mo ago

>Personally, I just can’t find it in me to be that self-interested Caring about your ability to pay your bills, and support your family is "self-interested" in the same way that choosing to not drive into oncoming traffic is "self-interested".

fugigigjfn 2mo ago

[dead]

popalchemist 2mo ago

Has it occurred to you that it isn't only self-interest but concern for others that drives collective bargaining? It's essentialy a way for the little guys to stand up to the 1% to fight against the unending series of abuses and diminishment of the average person's ability to earn a livable wage and work under fair conditions.

timr 2mo ago
Yes. But there's a clear difference between, say, stealing someone's voice, identity or intellectual property, and preventing someone from using automation to do labor. The former is obviously unfair to the person whose identity is stolen. The latter is sour grapes from people who want to control the future. I also can't bring myself to get incensed over someone using a robot to write code. It's literally the modern equivalent of smashing knitting looms.
- popalchemist 2mo ago
  You keep framing it as getting incensed over other people using ai to write code; but that isn't what it's about. A dev union would not attempt that; it would attempt to ensure quality of life for your class of people (and their families) as much as possible. It isn't about policing entire industries or other entities; it is about DEFENDING those who they would, do, and always have exploited when binding contracts or legislation don't prevent them from doing so. Union = a group of people defending their rights and that includes the right to a life that isn't at the utter mercy of perpetual enshittification due to the infinite mechanical plodding of heartless (by definition) megacorporations that would never hesitate to eradicate peoples' livelihoods and treat humans as material for the orphan grinder if they could get away with it. And by the way, they do, if you haven't noticed.
  - timr 2mo ago
    > it would attempt to ensure quality of life for your class of people (and their families) as much as possible. What is “your class of people”, and why is it threatened by what other people do with coding robots? You can try to dress it up as an intellectual argument, but at root it’s the same thing that the luddites were trying to do: defending your preferred lifestyle from technological advances. We, the ditch diggers of the world, support your unqualified resistance to the use of steam shovels! Fewer holes, slower!

croon 2mo ago

I'm unsure how you reach the conclusion of "self-interest". Unions are about collective bargaining power, reaching (ideally) what's best for most of the people it represents, even if it's detrimental to you specifically.

LeBit 2mo ago

Try to think about other people a bit. You are part of a whole. You are not alone. Saying you don’t mind to adapt is insulting.

cindyllm 2mo ago
[dead]

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

qmmmur 2mo ago

Right, but in your apathy there is a well organised group of capitalists who are vying to instrumentalise your existence. A union is just levelling the playing field.