13 ms·

More German than many Germans

• JSR_FDED 2mo ago
  Congratulations on becoming a citizen! It’s funny how being an outsider lets you see all the amazing things that locals take for granted.
  • lionkor 2mo ago
    As a born German, I do not take most of these things for granted! And of course I complain about all the things that need to be better.
• Akashic101 2mo ago
  As a German I am super happy to hear that you are having such a good time in my, or now our, country. So often the news focus only on the bad things which sometimes blinds me on how nice people can be to each other and help each other out as one big community.
  • matsemann 2mo ago
    I also enjoy reading about how the colleagues and him genuinely like each other. So often on US forums I read a sentiment along the lines of "shut up and just do your work", but since I spend 8 hours with these people each day I prefer us to be as close to friends as possible.
• ThouYS 2mo ago
  What an energizing read!
• schmorptron 2mo ago
  What a nice and heartwarming read! I'm german, and really hope we can pivot away from the rise of the far right. How that can be done, I don't know. I just hope we can do so before we start scaring away people like him who would otherwise come here, decide they like it, become germans, and end up making it a better place for everyone. (Part of it is I think we should make it easier and more incentivized to learn the language early so not just people in english-dominated tech jobs can have a positive experience. Cold start problem. It shouldn't be too hard for the gov to commission a RosettaStone like german learning app ((suboptimal, i know)) that works somewhat well and give it out for free, right?) But a struggling economy, questionable planning for many years now, the "educated middle class" he mentioned in the post shrinking don't bode well for it. It's a prime breeding ground for scapegoat politics. It's probably one of the cognitive "exploits" in the human mind, that finding a scapegoat (the foreigners) to blame for everything being such an effective tool to rally people with grievances behind yourself and slowly turning them into hateful monsters.
  • imurray 2mo ago
    > It shouldn't be too hard for the gov to commission a RosettaStone like german learning app ((suboptimal, i know)) that works somewhat well and give it out for free, right?) Deutsche Welle (DW) is funded by German taxes and has materials for learning German: https://learngerman.dw.com/ https://learngerman.dw.com/ as well as regular new materials aimed at learners, such as the news spoken slowly https://learngerman.dw.com/de/langsam-gesprochene-nachrichten/s-60040332 https://learngerman.dw.com/de/langsam-gesprochene-nachrichte... -- although I found it easier to listen to the normal news (e.g. tagesschau) slowed down slightly. (W-h-e-n p-e-o-p-l-e s-p-e-a-k s-l-o-w-l-y i-t c-a-n b-e h-a-r-d-e-r t-o l-i-s-t-e-n t-o!) Not state-funded, but I recommend https://www.easygerman.org/ https://www.easygerman.org/ -- they have lots of good youtube material, a nice podcast, and an app I've not used. Most of the material is free with bonus materials for supporters.
    • klausa 2mo ago
      There's no way to say this without sounding like an old crank; but I think putting down your phone when on the U-Bahn and just reading the news and/or ads on the little in-train screens helps a surprising amount!
    • Mashimo 2mo ago
      > although I found it easier to listen to the normal news (e.g. tagesschau) Tagesschau also has a version in "simple German" and you can turn on subtitles: https://www.tagesschau.de/tagesschau_in_einfacher_sprache https://www.tagesschau.de/tagesschau_in_einfacher_sprache
    • ZeroGravitas 2mo ago
      Also promoting German language and culture (I think technically an independant charity but I guess there's a lot of government financial support): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goethe-Institut https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goethe-Institut
  • expedition32 2mo ago
    When people came from Algeria, Jamaica and Suriname to Europe they were not foreigners they had French, British and Dutch passports. Germany's lack of such a colonial empire kept the country from transitioning into a true multicultural society. It explains Germans special branch of racism.
• tchalla 2mo ago
  On rules - they certainly create clarity and also have the potential to enable NPC like behaviour which is all too common. Since you mentioned Traffic Light Coalition, the chancellor Olaf Scholz (who is a lawyer and was also the ex-mayor of Hamburg) recently said in an interview “Germany was known to be a country of engineers, we are now a country of lawyers”. Hamburg along side with Munich is what Germany should look like. So I think Hamburg has played a role in your perception too.
  • petesergeant 2mo ago
    UK and Australia are also very rule-loving and have their own problems, but not the same disease you’re describing here.
    • servo_sausage 2mo ago
      It's interesting, as an Aussie, the decline in rule following is honestly a bit upsetting. Part COVID, part mass migration, but the general decline in social trust is something that I really feel. I guess I see breaking rules as fundamentally a lack of empathy.
      • germanae 2mo ago
        [dead]
      • logicchains 2mo ago
        As another Australian I'm glad to see it. I remember as a kid watching a neighbour's dog of many years being dragged away to the slaughter by a council worker as the old women pleaded for it to be spared, just because it wasn't the right breed. The rules don't leave any room for empathy. There's a saying, "the problem isn't that Australia was founded by prisoners, it's that it was founded by prison guards".
        • nephihaha 2mo ago
          I think Clive James said that, or something similar. I think his version was something like "the tragedy isn't that so many Australians are descended from convicts, but that so many are descended from the guards." The guards are in charge there as everywhere else.
• udswagz 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  • snootypoot 2mo ago
    [dead]
  • hamper653 2mo ago
    He is Turkish?
    • croes 2mo ago
      Doesn’t mean they look Turkish to the common racist
      • hamper653 2mo ago
        Doesn’t mean they don’t. Odds are, they do.
      • jyounker 2mo ago
        His photo is on the web page. He looks not-German to the common German racist.
        • croes 2mo ago
          Then Mats Hummels looks non-German too
          • hamper653 2mo ago
            > Then No.
  • chmod775 2mo ago
    Good catch. We almost forgot to inject skin color into this conversation. Only once people cannot discuss any topic at all anymore without mentioning or thinking about skin color, will we finally have solved racism. Keep fighting the good fight.
• snootypoot 2mo ago
  [dead]
• deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
• coolThingsFirst 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  • croes 2mo ago
    Luckily we are all rats just living in different stables
  • cjd8 2mo ago
    What a moronic thing to say...
    • 05980380443 2mo ago
      [dead]
  • virtualritz 2mo ago
    Lety me reply to this bigoted trope with an apt Turkish proverb: The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
• bambax 2mo ago
  The first time I was in Berlin I had to take a bus. It was just leaving the stop as I was getting there, but stopped at the next red light. So I ran to the bus and knocked on the door. The driver looked at me with a concerned look to see if something was wrong, and once he understood I was just asking to come onboard outside of the regular stop, he laughed. Not ironically or in a mean way: it was a genuine laugh like I was doing something so weird and out of this world that it had to be a prank. And when the light turned green, he just left. I could not believe it; but when I told the story to my German friends they too didn't quite understand why anyone would try to board a bus outside of a stop. Being French, I have a hard time understanding why you wouldn't.
  • dot_treo 2mo ago
    It is actually an insurance kind of thing as far as I understand. I've had plenty of cases where the bus couldn't continue due to being in a traffic jam, and people who would have happily get off the bus couldn't either.
    • lukan 2mo ago
      Whenever something convenient in germany is not possible, you can bet it is a insurance thing.
      • cineticdaffodil 2mo ago
        Leave the windows leaned open so it cools down in the office over night? Impossible due to insurrance. Somebody dies from overheated office and you want to sew the insurrer who enforced this ridiculous rules even on the third floor.. impossible, due to..
      • rmoriz 2mo ago
        And the insurance conditions are based on DIN/EN, VDE, TÜV and others. If you have bodies that create rules, they will never stop creating rules because it is their job to create rules. Something that started great to reduce unnecessary harm became a red tape monster slowing down everything. Nobody gets elected or paid to reduce that in a sane manner (not: Chainsaw, Doge)
• nicbou 2mo ago
  This mirrors my own journey, although I have never submitted my citizenship application. I also came here for an internship and stayed. 11 years and counting. Congrats on becoming a citizen. Having seen many of my friends go through it and accompanying some to their appointment, I know how big it can feel.
• amval 2mo ago
  I am myself an immigrant to this country, one that has had itequally easy, if not more. Lately, or perhaps for the last couple of years, I've struggled with negative feelings about the country. I do not like the direction things are moving politically and economically, nor how germans talk about politics, and the biggest reason to want to be in Germany is the very high living conditions one can have here. Culturally, it is hard not feel dettached when Germans themselves seem uninterested in cultural aspects that are normally a reason to want to learn a language (literature, films, etc). I can speak German, but maintaining it or improving it feels more like a chore than something exciting. Anyway, this was a nice, positive read, and it made me happy to read it. It is often easier to focus on the negative aspects of things, while taking for granted the positive ones. Germany has a lot of good things going for it, and the power to be a better version of itself. A position lots of countries would wish they could be in. Sadly, this does not seem clear to the German political class.
  • schmorptron 2mo ago
    You make a good point about cultural things that would make one excited to learn a language. But I really struggle to imagine what could be done to fix that? Injecting more money into the film industry would just lead it to the same people at the top of it where they'll produce the same mediocre output as they have for ages. hmm
    • vineyardmike 2mo ago
      > Injecting more money into the film industry would just lead it to the same people at the top of it where they'll produce the same mediocre output as they have for ages Not necessarily, if you apply discipline and intentionality. Canada famously created “CanCon” (Canadian Content) by law. They forced media in the country to be X% local, and that built out the industry by sheer necessity. The reputation was poor in the early years, but now a talent pipeline, local services, and industrial knowledge has built up and they have a thriving entertainment industry. Germany has the disadvantage against Canada which could benefit from speaking English and cross selling to the US and UK. But it can become a source of local pride and distinction. The French are very proud of their language, even though it’s also not heavily spoken internationally. The building blocks exist to successfully build cultural capital if it’s a priority.
• 05980380443 2mo ago
  [dead]
• quadrifoliate 2mo ago
  I have a question for you, or any other immigrants. A common complaint I have heard from rule-followers immigrating to Germany is something like "You have to have an appointment in person for minor thing X at the city hall, and there are 7 slots for a date and time 5 months from now" (some exaggeration). How prevalent was this in your experience, or anyone else you know? Any particular cities that are worse in this regard?
  • whateverboat 2mo ago
    This was true about immigration offices because government did not invest in immigration offices, and when they did, in typical German fashion, they were very slow. Now, most cities are finally coming to terms with it. But in the mean time, the normal city services (not related to immigration services) are as bad as immigration service, because a lot of people are retiring and no one new to replace them.
  • klausa 2mo ago
    It's both true and untrue. It's true that finding appointments can be difficult if you just open the website once and see a calendar with no available slots for months; _but_; there are very frequent cancellations and some offices releases slots for the same day at midnight/7AM/etc; so if you're determined and flexible; it's quite doable to get an appointment ~soon. For some things (apartment registration) you can also just show up on the day and just wait. (My last interaction with a Bürgeramt was in Berlin in October 2023 though and was pretty similar for the previous ~8 years; things could have changed in the meantime!)
  • ItsYan 2mo ago
    As an EU citizen, I can't tell you if it's true for the immigration office. But for anything else? Kind of? If you want to move, you have to make an appointment in person to tell them. But it is also retroactive, so you can move and then make an appointment in 5 months and it's fine. The paper that says where you live is very important but it's also easy to get, you just have to show up. Not any time but the times for that are plentiful enough that it works out. What makes my blood boil is the paperwork for when your kid is born. It feels like they should just be able to retrieve everything from their database but you have to submit a load of documents anyway and it has to be original. Also, don't try to get married in Germany. Just go to Denmark, much easier, despite the delays if you get something wrong. You can do the whole thing in English and you don't have to translate anything for Germans after, if I recall correctly. If you don't have to deal with the immigration office, it's fine. If you do, then good luck. I heard it's a pain. For example, in Bremen, it takes at least 2 years to process a citizenship application. It should take a year at most. So I guess if you ever wanted to sue someone and win a slam dunk case, you could do that in Bremen. In Berlin, the citizenship application takes only a few months.
• shafyy 2mo ago
  Great post and congrats on your Einbürgerung =)
• rockyj 2mo ago
  A very nice read and pretty much my experience. I have been here for a quarter of my life now, I do not think I can live anywhere else now. People may not like me being here because of my skin color or whatever but I do not mind. I keep to myself and follow all the "rules" I can. In fact, I like most of the rules, rules are good because they ensure order, fairness and equality. Will a little bit of empathy be nicer, sure, but I cannot complain. Speaking of which, a lot of German natives complain and some are even leaving the country (around 100k left last year), but honestly I have visited / lived in nine countries, and people have no idea how good they have it here. I came here with a bag, twenty euros in my pocket and a job offer, a dozen years later I have pretty much all basic comforts and stability one can dream of, my kids have a bright future waiting for them, all this is not possible in many countries.
  • whstl 2mo ago
    I've found that the rule-following in Germany is way more consistent than in the country I grew up at in Latin America, plus people is much more willing to help you actually follow those rules. This helps reduce the amount of (bad) chaos in your daily life tremendously.
    • shutyourhole 2mo ago
      [dead]
  • wuschel 2mo ago
    > Speaking of which, a lot of German natives complain and some are even leaving the country (around 100k left last year), but honestly I have visited / lived in nine countries, and people have no idea how good they have it here. The grass is always greener on the other side ... until you actually dare to find out. Having lived and worked in many a country, I second your opinion that it is often about trade offs. Problems will come and go. You have to choose the problem you want to work with. Germany certainly is one of the top countries to live in.
    • lukan 2mo ago
• sajithdilshan 2mo ago
  As an immigrant living in Germany I can only attest to what's written on the blog post. Just like any other country, there are all sorts of people in Germany and Germans are actually hard working people which is a bit more reserved that the rest of the world. The only F'ed up thing about Germany is the politics and the weather.
• Mashimo 2mo ago
  > I didn't hesitate to complain (with Lärmprotokoll) to my landlord. True Alman spottet. No loud noises on Sunday (mowing lawn, home renovations etc) I can get behind. But I truly don't get why Germans collectively dislikes shops being open on Sunday. If you ask into it, something about the fabric of the German family is at risk.
  • ncruces 2mo ago
    Aren't you reading it the other way around? (I'm from another EU country where this rule existed) Other people have the right to rest on Sundays too, so you force as many activities to shutdown as possible to make it so. I don't really agree with the rule, by the way. Same thing as (in my country) all schools closing the exact same weeks which causes terrible holiday peaks on a bunch of other activities. Something we're also timidly abandoning, to great results (IMO) but which is not a popular change.
    • Mashimo 2mo ago
      > Other people have the right to rest on Sundays too, so you force as many activities to shutdown as possible to make it so. Mhh, yeah I guess. I do love my Sunday shopping though.
  • EdwardDiego 2mo ago
    I've not lived in Germany but visited routinely for longer periods when working for a company there, and the understanding I derived is that Germans have an expectation that the only things (with some exceptions like airport shops) that should be open on a Sunday are things you can do with your family and/or friends - museums, art galleries, restaurants, and, natürlich, stuff like city parks and things that facilitated Wandern machen (going for hikes), so while the grocery store in that small Alps town might be closed on a Sunday, the Seilbahn/cable car isn't. It caught me out a few times when I'd go to buy a bulk of German confectionary from a Lidl or Aldi to take back home for colleagues and my kids, and of course, I was flying out on a Sunday, so they were closed, so I had to pay airport prices for them. All that said though, even the stuff that was open on a Sunday would generally shut earlier than usual, because after all, it _is_ Sunday bru, and the trains ran on a sparser schedule which meant my attempt to go to the Eagle's Nest museum, ended up with me getting there just as it closed, and then realising that the next train back to Munich from Berchtesgarden was in 4 hours (IIRC), and my dinner with my colleagues was in 3 hours... But the locals were so lovely and patient with my poor German, and they directed me to catch the next bus to Salzburg, and then catch the ICE to Munich from there. It blew my Kiwi mind that they're like "Oh yeah, the fastest way back to Munich is to just catch a bus into Austria" real casual like. Schengen is pretty awesome.
• lionkor 2mo ago
  > I noticed the same thing in the rich districts of Hamburg. You can walk into one and not feel like you don't belong, and the prices in the shops are not that different from anywhere else in the city. Sometimes they are exactly the same. The more I saw of that, the more I wanted to stay. I believe in social democracy, and this is a country that calls itself one and mostly behaves like it. Try the Kö in Düsseldorf! Of course this is a jab at the fact that nearly every nice store there is one where you walk in, get profiled, and then are given champagne and asked to sit down before you can even look at clothes. We have this ridiculous shit, it's just localized to a couple places known for being so posh! :)
• kioleanu 2mo ago
  There is one rule of thumb that I’ve noticed: if you are a reasonable person and integrate you will be treated as one of their own. Otherwise not. Your article mirrors my own experience 1:1, it’s like I’ve written it myself. Apart from the citizenship process. Even though it was also 14 months long (eerie lol), I had to do a lot of noise about it, because they are processing applications out of order (some people got theirs in two weeks, some in two years, no rhyme or reason) - press, meetings with local politicians etc. Which helped my personal case but didn’t fix the problem at all.
  • Yasuraka 2mo ago
    > if you are a reasonable person and integrate you will be treated as one of their own. You won't, even if you were born and raised here - 3rd generation Turks get treated worse after 60 years than Ukranians after 4, let alone someone with an arab name, all else being equal[1]. This is natural in almost all nations for its humans in all of them, but the rampant arrogance and hypocrisy is exceptional and one does no good reinforcing it. [1] https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausbildung-migrationshintergrund-name-100.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/ausbildung-migrationshinter...
    • throwaway2037 2mo ago
      My hot take about Turks struggling to integrate: The didn't try hard enough. They held on to too much of their Islamic religion and culture. It didn't mix well with the primarily Christian religion and culture of Germany. The Ukranians have much more culturally in common with Germans which is why they have integrated so much faster.
      • Yasuraka 2mo ago
        You are describing assimilation, not integration, also disproven by the fact that the name alone is the only differentiator in this example. Plenty of justifications will be found ex-facto in any case, all are excuses. I'm not claiming any nation to be above racism, in fact globally most are worse, but this one is really high on its own supply.
• lionkor 2mo ago
  Congrats on your citizenship! You're a great showcase for why this immigration process needs to exist and why it works.
• lukan 2mo ago
  "Rules also make normal days easier. Something simple like waiting at a red light even when there are no cars takes away the work of deciding whether to cross. " Ah, he really became german. (It seems I ain't anymore by that standard - when there are no cars, of course I go.)
  • klausa 2mo ago
    Or you became a Berliner. (There's a small part of me that wishes I could've naturalized as a Berliner, not German — many (though obviously not all!) things I love about it are really about Berlin specifically, not Germany. Seeing "waiting at traffic lights to cross even when there's no cars around" being described as a German thing always makes me smile a bit; having worked for ~3y near Kotti. Nobody does that there.)
  • deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  • germanae 2mo ago
    [dead]
  • throw834938 2mo ago
    To me that aspect is a symptom not of a rule-following culture, but of the favouritism given to cars. The car lobby has a lot of influence in Germany. It is why there are no speed limits on highways, trains are in a terrible condition, and finally pedestrians are made to obey rules optimised for car traffic. The rule could be different, like in UK where the rule is that the pedestrian is allowed to jaywalk and it is not breaking any law, and you would still get a rule-following society (in that respect at least). The difference is in the expectation of whether a car is a guest in a human environment or a human is a guest in a car environment.
• vanderZwan 2mo ago
  > Most people complain about the rules in Germany, but I like them. It means someone, or a group of people, sat down and thought about that specific thing and decided on a standard for everyone. When you have to do something, you don't feel lost, because you can just look it up. You don't have to find someone who knows. Somewhere in the afterlife, Max Weber proudly sheds a tear of happiness while whispering "this guy gets it", hahaha (of course his whole philosophy depends on the rules being as fair as possible, and also that they are enforced uniformly and fairly, but let's not get too lost in the weeds here). Anyway, lovely article and congrats on finding a place where you feel home!
• arh5451 2mo ago
  I found it quite interesting you thought American companies are more hierarchical than German companies. I think in general it’s extremely company/industry dependent. Having worked in several industries, countries, and companies I would say that Germany tends to be quite age oriented where the USA is more results oriented which is then reflected in the hierarchy and perceived openness. I also think Hamburg and Bavaria are exceptions to the norm in terms of economic productivity and openness to businesses.
  • matsemann 2mo ago
    As a Norwegian working for a company that expanded into Germany, I also was a bit surprised about the author claiming Germany to have a flat structure. I found it very hierarchical compared to what I'm used to. Like, setting up a new business it's very all-hands-on-deck until established, but had people refuse to do stuff "beneath their role" or outside their responsibility, or to do anything unless explicitly ordered by their direct manager when asked by someone else. Nothing wrong in that, really, just a bit of a culture shock when you're used to something working a certain way. It was on us to adjust.
    • pitchlatte 2mo ago
      i read it as a Hamburg thing. my experience is mostly with NRW and i don’t recognise anything of this article in it. hierarchical, conservative, suspicious.
• 4gotunameagain 2mo ago
  ...What I knew about Germans.. ..who speak a language that sounds too harsh.. ..And of course, someone always brings up the Nazis That's bold, coming from Turkish people when their country is in an aggressive military dictatorship and the language not particularly pleasant to the ear. I guess we all need someone worse than us to cope.
  • notenlish 2mo ago
    I don't think Erdogans dictatorship can be classified as an aggressive military dictatorship. I don't think neither German or Turkish is harsh to the ear.
  • germanae 2mo ago
    [dead]
• edelbitter 2mo ago
  You have not mentioned the final step, the one that is not certified in the Einbürgerungsurkunde: Becoming less German than many Germans by walking the tightrope between superiority thinking and self-harmingly downplaying legitimately great achievements. Purposefully making the distinction between things that are merely peculiar about German customs (old and new) on the one side, and things that are objectively the one true/correct/orderly way of doing things, and thus, must forfeit all claims of being "German". Many of the latter fall into the general categories of "rule of law" or "high-trust society", and once you compare how Denmark and Austria are doing, the most productive strategy is probably to stop attributing them to the peoples or states of Germany. And rather, consider them merely things easy to observe in Germany at this particular time. Use Germany as a spotlight to learn how to recognize how it looks and feels when they work, and more importantly: how to spot signs of them failing to work, then apply it globally. Und es mag am deutschen Wesen einmal noch die Welt genesen! Which is easier without bundling it up with customs that.. well.. would better remain localized to free state of thuringia.
• shaan7 2mo ago
  [dead]
• shalom1112 2mo ago
  [dead]
• vw_bulli 2mo ago
  This resonates with me a lot, and reading it gave me some positive emotions about Germany which I unfortunately have less and less with each passing day. This country gave me a lot. Moving here from a third world country, the jump in my quality of life was immeasurable. All the rules everywhere were for me a blessing, coming originally from a chaotic city. Despite never taking any German courses, I had reached C1 level after only three years, and thanks to the (now reverted) law by the traffic-light-government you mentioned, I could get the citizenship in a record 3 years only. I have never felt at home anywhere in my life like in Hamburg. It is such a stunning city, with the perfect mix of anything. The city's own marketing campaign "why go to country X when you have it inside Hamburg" is so true. Compared to the rest of Germany, Hamburgers are extremely open and friendly. But the bar is so.damn.low. That is one of the few big problems I have here. I integrated in an excellent way IMO: speak C1 German without an accent, have a German wife, have a stable job, yet feel unwelcome by an ever increasing percentage of Germans. As much as I adore Hamburg, I do not want to imagine getting old here. Just like a huge amount of Germans, I see my happiness in moving further north.
  • pelasaco 2mo ago
    > As much as I adore Hamburg, I can't imagine growing old here. Why not? > Like many Germans, I see my future somewhere further north. Is it similar to people moving from Berlin to Brandenburg... What's driving that trend? And how do people who already live in those regions generally feel about the migration from big cities into more "rural" areas? From their perspective, it probably isn't entirely positive. It can put pressure on housing prices, schools, traffic, and healthcare. There may also be political and cultural tensions as the population changes.
    • vw_bulli 2mo ago
      > Why not? By no means did I mean Hamburg. If Hamburg was a country of its own I would love to live here to my last day, enduring the social-skills situation. The reason why I do would not like to settle here permanently is more about German politics, which makes one vomit. Additionally, the recent reforms to the pension system here pissed many young people off, and the trajectory says it will only get worse. > Like many Germans, I see my future somewhere further north. Berliners move to Brandenburg when they make a family and want a bigger house :) My (and many Germans') intention is more for the whole package. In my case I meant moving to a completely different country, not just region. In the case of Norway: (Relatively) much less disgusting politics, solid pension and stable economy, less hostile environment, and of course breath-taking nature. Lots of this is subjective, so take it with a grain of salt :) Domestic migration within Germany doesn't really bother anyone AFAIK, since Germany's birthrate is very low anyway so no significant pressure arises. And if you move from Hamburg to Schleswig-Holstein nobody would notice. If you move from Hamburg to Bavaria (why would you?), that's a different story.
• rmoriz 2mo ago
  Keep in mind that OP is a trained professional with a good education and dealing with Germans in a professional environment. I guess all people with an academic background or comparable. It changes a lot when going outside of this „bubble“ for both sides. Working class blue collared ppl are less open and also a lot of untrained immigrants that hoped to chase a dream now working as Uber drivers or food couriers.
• steviee 2mo ago
  Hey Mert, welcome! It really was a cool time at the company at the time. And the L‘Osteria across always was a nice retreat! Hope you’re doing well!
• magick_man 2mo ago
  This was such a great read.
• germanae 2mo ago
  [dead]
• m00dy 2mo ago
  I'm glad that you left Turkiye.
• gib444 2mo ago
  > People seem to think a German passport is handed out easily now. It isn't. You have to prove you paid into the social system for at least five years. You have to pass the citizenship test. You need German at B1 level. You need a sustainable livelihood while your application is running. And most importantly, you have to accept the democratic values of this country. That is still relatively easy. 5 years is not a long time – various other European countries are longer. The citizenship test is multiple-choice and has a pass rate of 52%. B1 should be easily achievable after 5 years in Germany. And B1 is lower-middle (A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2), and is not fluency. I'm not sure why paying taxes and having a job is highlighted as making it "not easy" - that should be the bare minimum. And then he goes onto describe how painless the application process was. All digital. No bureaucratic games trying to trip him up. Seemed very easy edit: Oh and ~700-800 EUR in total for all the fees? [0] Bargain! [0] https://reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship/comments/1q5ij2w/what_did_the_naturalization_process_cost_you_in/ https://reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship/comments/1q5ij2w/what...
  • dgellow 2mo ago
    Note that you need a B1 certificate, so it’s really better to take actual courses to be sure you know the actual grammar and vocabulary (including all the irregular verbs, uhrg…) you will face during the exam. The exam isn’t too hard but you need to be prepared, it covers reading, speaking, writing, and grammar exercises
  • gib444 2mo ago
    pass score of 52%*
  • izacus 2mo ago
    This is a lower requirement than permanent residence in Switzerland for comparison.
    • i-blis 2mo ago
      It seems not to be the case. According to SEM (Staatssekretariat für Migration), a B1 oral level and A1 written level at least are required to be granted permanent residency and B1/A2 (oral/written) for naturalisation [1] in one of the four national languages. They do not state the bar to admission. [1] https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home/integration-einbuergerung/mein-beitrag/zugewandert/sprache.html https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home/integration-einbuergeru...
• mstaoru 2mo ago
  Germany will be the first country to accept LLM-based humanoid robot citizens. Grep RULES.md, if not in the rules, `return 0`.
  • notenlish 2mo ago
    What?
• asusatom450 2mo ago
  [flagged]
• lcedp 2mo ago
  Have anyone seen similar articles about other countries?
• tobi_bsf 2mo ago
  Welcome to my home country, glad it worked well for you. Regarding the far rights and how they are againts immigrants, this is 100% not against immigrants like you who integrate and are a valuable member of the german community. There are still a lot of illegal immigrants who have no intention of working here, just want to take benefit of the social system and send the money home or just come to germany to be criminal, sadly that is still a real problem.
• Aldipower 2mo ago
  The German history is a very complex one. Some habits in society and in families are going back still to the 30 year war, which was an extremely cruel one. Germany inhibited psychological pain over centuries from wars, battles, restrictions and cruel upbringing practices. Keep in mind, Germany didn't exists as a country before 1871 (!). It were "smaller" states like, Schleswig, Pommern, Preussen, Bayern, Franken and many more, all loosely scattered around, having big nations like France, the Nordics, Russia, etc. as neighbors, that regularly invaded some of the German states. That seeded a constant type of fear historically and resulted in a psychological overreaction over the recent centuries, certainly starting with the "Kaiserreich" from 1871 on, which encouraged strong but willing people that obey. The first World War is a complex and cruel situation in its own, but with roots in the European situation of this time, leading to the second World War where Germany played a very cruel role, but psychological determinable. In the 50s, 60s, the "Wirstschaftwunder" draws a typical compensation pattern of a wounded narcissistic personality from a psychological perspective. Parents buried a lot of pain from the past wars inside them, inheriting this pain to it's children, by being distached or "cold". Until today !, younger Germans suffer from this inherited "pain", they cannot explain, because not many looking at Germany's history and can connected all the pieces together. On the other hand it is fantastic what German overcame and became now. Overall Germans did a good job in the recent history, but I think they still can do better and should be more friendly to themselves. Accepting that the cruel German history starts waaay earlier then WW2.
  • kome 2mo ago
    [dead]
• tomaytotomato 2mo ago
  A nice read, Immigration has many pulls and with that comes all sorts of immigrants whether great, average and terrible. Unfortunately Western countries and bureaucracies seem to have committed the usual sin of developing processes that: - make it incredibly hard for good immigrants to migrate, contribute and naturalise themselves legally. - at the same time leaving lots of gaping holes of exploitation for criminals and other immigrants who are just looking for a meal ticket or to enter illegally and abuse our high trust societies. Couple this with a news and media setup that optimises for covering news of bad migrants whilst hardly broadcasting news about good migrants.
• probably_wrong 2mo ago
  On the topic of rules: > [Rules mean that] someone, or a group of people, sat down and thought about that specific thing and decided on a standard for everyone. When you have to do something, you don't feel lost, because you can just look it up. You don't have to find someone who knows. I mildly disagree with this stance for two reasons. First, "you can just look it up" it's like arguing that it's okay if the Linux kernel is badly documented because you can inspect the source code anytime. Try and figure out the rules for opening a GmbH by yourself (and the advantages over a Ug) and let me know if you feel comfortable in doing it without "finding someone who knows". Second, the problem with inflexible rules is that you can't do anything when someone else breaks them. The case that everybody knows: if you need to renew your residence permit before a specific date you cannot book more than X weeks in advance (rule 1), you have a right to an appointment (rule 2), and the online system is the one and only way to get one (rule 3). So what happens when there are no appointments? Well, you panic, because suddenly your timeframe is very tight (thanks to rule 1) and you cannot reach anyone (rule 3) despite you having a right (rule 2). What happens if you respectfully but firmly demand that which is your legal right? Based on my experience, someone will call security to escort you out. And while I never thought my first time suing someone would be the German government, that was the only way to get them to give me my citizenship after literal years of delays. Rules are fine, but only when everyone follows them. Once the government starts ignoring them while demanding that everyone else follows them, every rule becomes a potential headache.
  • aleph_minus_one 2mo ago
    > Once the government starts ignoring them while demanding that everyone else follows them, every rule becomes a potential headache. There is a reason why hardly any German person speaks of "unsere (Bundes-)Regierung" [our (federal) government], but nearly always about "die (Bundes-)Regierung" [the (federal) government] [1]. Indeed, the federal government is something that many Germans rather think of something like a catastrophic natural force than something where you have any sense of belonging. To further prove my point: what US-American jokes are about lawyers are jokes about politicians in Germany. [1] That the German article "die" is a quite different verb in English makes this even nicer: if you know a little bit of English, you immediately think of "die, (federal) government", when you talk in German of "die Bundesregierung".
• emsign 2mo ago
  > Something simple like waiting at a red light even when there are no cars takes away the work of deciding whether to cross. Someone gets it. It reduces mental load tremendously which is kinda important when you are a pedestrian surrounded by motor traffic. But of course you think there is no car coming because you didn't see one, right? So why not jaywalk this time? But what if your perception played a trick on you and your conclusion turns out to be false? When you are fatigued by the constant state of vigilance, doubt and self-assurance, in the end you are more likely to overlook the car that is coming round the corner. Jaywalking is for short term gains, but might have bad consequences in the long run. Your attention and vigilance is a scarce and valuable resource. And what's the rush anyway?
• shevy-java 2mo ago
  > I believe in social democracy, and this is a country that calls itself one and mostly behaves like it. Meanwhile in Turkey itself, Erdogan abolished the secular separation and transitioned into a de-facto dictatorship, where religion plays a much stronger role than before. This presents a huge problem because such a Turkey simply does not fit into Europe. It fits a lot more to arabic and persian culture, though Turkey is also a bit different to that; it seems Turkey does have a very strange role, overall. It fits in part to everything but also to nothing else. Erdogan was voted in, though, by a conservative majority, so they wanted to have such a structure for the most part. > people say Germans prefer Germans when it comes to promotions That is not really that correct either; Germans are not all Germans. For instance, Bavarians are very different to northern Germans and here the dialect plays a huge role. If you can speak bavarian, even without being from Bavaria, you'll find it is much easier to interact in southern Germany, irrelevant over as to whether you were born here or not. I noticed this when people with a black skin speak perfect/fluent Bavarian. They look different of course but there is no language barrier. So really the advice to be given is to learn german, ideally the dialect if you can (some dialects are horrible, saxon specifically). > Cem Özdemir, whose parents came from Turkey, has been the prime minister of Baden-Württemberg since May He speaks perfect german though, so I don't think this can be taken as a comparison. He was also born in Germany (in Urach). You can find many other examples too if you want to; some turkish-germans who support the AKP or grey wolves and what not radical groups. It simply is not a homogeneous mass. > in a city like Hamburg It depends a lot on the city too. Hamburg is pretty solid overall. You may find it harder in Berlin; and although I think Bavaria rocks, Munich can be a rather difficult setting. Hamburg is quite nice though, much prettier than Berlin, even though significantly smaller (but still a fairly large city; almost two million people, in fact, second biggest city in Germany). Also from what he writes, it seems to be as if he has solid social skills. This is not always the case. > The language is part of that Indeed. It's IMO the number #1 thing to tackle. The language barrier. English works usually but there will be a huge difference to understanding german natively or near natively. > So the German came from the decision to stay. The more important question though is: why isn't Turkey like that? Great that people want to go into Germany, but you only need to look at the recent problems with Ceuta. Spain is not Germany, of course, but something really does not work well here. Wealth and opportunities should be much better spread and distributed than it is right now. > For me the logical thing has always been to aim for 15 minutes before the agreed time, so if something happens on the way I'm still fine. He already has german work ethics there. ;) For me I also try to arrive earlier, but mostly because upon waking up my head needs time to clear up and I am slow, so I try to have a time buffer usually. It's no problem past 10:00 o'clock (I use the 24 hours clock; AM and PM never made any sense to me). > and I didn't hesitate to complain (with Lärmprotokoll) to my landlord. Alright I had to stop here, because when someone from outside Germany knows the word Lärmprotokoll, he is now more german than the germans. :P (I also had noise by neighbours but I never complained, yet alone with a protocol to snitch. Though my neighbours are not causing any problems usually, young kids may sometimes cause noise but I also felt that if I were to complain when kids make noise that does not seem to be super-nice to a kid that may not understand that noise causes issues. And complaining to the parents made no sense either since that would just delegate the problem when it would be a non-problem. I'd be scared to live around something writing "Protokolle" about me. He should tone down his super-german drive really - not everything is great about german discipline. I mean we could have a look at two world wars, how that got started ...)
• mindjiver 2mo ago
  Wonderful read and welcome to you! I'm also a new citizen to Germany since this winter, lived here over 10 years now. It's a great place to live, at least in the north - have not tried much else, but the complaining can be a bit tiresome. At least the part about complaining and then not doing anything about it. My home country is a bit more easy going but it's also 1/8 of the population and less diverse and with a lot less troublesome history - in the 20th century. Just remember: Kreuz setzen ohne Haken! ;-)
• k__ 2mo ago
  I think, the main issue with German rules is that we haven't embraced digital technology 100%. All these rules would be way less cumbersome if they didn't come with a bunch of literal paperwork.
  • keiferski 2mo ago
    The funniest situation is when you’re in a city (Berlin in my example) and one store accepts only cash, while the store next door only accepts cards. Germany is definitely way behind on the digital front. Which is not always a bad thing…even if it’s usually an annoying one.
    • Anamon 2mo ago
      It's not just about the digital readiness. I assume it's the same in Germany, but in Switzerland there are many smaller stores that very proudly only accept cash, or even used to accept cards and stopped. Some shops around where I live even put signs like "cash only, always and forever", to get people to stop asking. It's an interesting divide happening, some going cashless only for speed, safety and convenience, others going cash only for fairness and sovereignty.
      • account42 2mo ago
        And others are going cash only for the undeclared income. Not a fan of card only myself because of all the dystopian possibilities that come with it but there are definitely also less honorable motivations for only accepting cash.
• HSO 2mo ago
  > What stayed with me is that this is probably the only country in the western world that faced its own history properly, admitted the worst things it did, and built a lot of its identity around not repeating them. what a load of 2010s and hamburg vibes but this part stuck out for me. how can someone, especially from that part of the world, look at germany post oct 7 and conclude anything other than that everything was always a self-stroking lie and propaganda
• roysting 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  • kome 2mo ago
    i had to re-read your comment twice. i thought i might have misunderstood. it’s rare these days to read such a pure, unfiltered ethno-nationalist argument, that level of ethnic and racial essentialism is a rare sight. you are the realest of the real, a true heartfelt nazi. i’m impressed.
    • antisupremacy 2mo ago
      Why are blatant american supremacist posters like this not permabanned? Tolerating the advocacy of the erasure of ethnic groups and to have the whole world be subjected to the anachronistic american racial caste system creates an extremely hostile environment for for anyone that isn't an american or one of their cultural vassals
      • kome 2mo ago
        not sure he was american, but i am happy he is gone, wherever he is from.
• frozenseven 2mo ago
  Mom, Dad, I'm German... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uynI0gLxA7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uynI0gLxA7w
• nbr42 2mo ago
  What struck me most is how the author seems to confuse a very protected version of Germany with Germany itself. He landed in a relatively rare bubble: an international tech company, an English-speaking workplace, and a professional profile the system values. That experience is valid, but it is hardly representative. Even this bubble is shrinking as companies cut local roles and move more work to lower-cost locations. The rest of Germany becomes visible once you leave the corporate layer. Try finding an apartment, dealing with a government office, getting a timely appointment, or starting a business. The system is often slow, rigid, inaccessible, and exhausting. Even a high salary does not automatically translate into prosperity. After taxes, housing, and everyday costs, building meaningful savings can still be surprisingly difficult. Germany also has a way of pushing you into an NPC life: work, pay taxes, follow the process, book everything months ahead, stay quiet on Sundays, and remain on the approved path. Meanwhile, the article feels oddly detached from a country facing industrial pressure, job cuts, housing shortages, heavy bureaucracy, economic anxiety, and growing political anger.
  • kome 2mo ago
    fully agree with this. class is a huge component, and i feel class in germany can be brutal. it starts with the education tracking system that, in practice, decides very early in life what your place in society will be. this creates a system where "social mobility in germany is lower than in most other developed economies" https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/new-evidence-social-mobility-germany https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/new-evidence-social-mobility-... or https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-social-mobility-among-poorest-worse-than-in-the-united-states-oecd/a-44245702 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-social-mobility-among-poorest... the article is just sharing his positive personal experience... it’s not a sociological treatise. but i agree with you, he’s clearly talking from within a bubble.
  • moezd 2mo ago
    This. The landing story is uncharacteristically soft, surrounded by English speaking colleagues in an international company. On average, you'd find that Germans tend to grow weary speaking in English sooner and almost press you to speak German the first time you blurt a reply that sounds vaguely correct German. It almost becomes a matter of protecting your personal space if you don't want to feel embarrassed for making mistakes, especially in the work setting. Think about it: You're already focusing on your work and explaining it in English. The documentation is in English. Your code and your documentation are in English, but the chat absolutely needs to happen in German. Why? Work culture. I'm calling it out, because that chit-chatting by the water cooler is also how you get some crucial information to position yourself in the company for promotions, and you're always in that weird state of mind if you speak German, you risk sounding like a child and if you don't, it seems like you're being passed over. If you live in an unfurnished apartment or buy your own sooner, then you also get to see how the service sector currently sees all white-collar workers: Cash cows who don't know how to hold a screwdriver properly. Add on top of that the joys of building a family in Germany and the associated paperwork and multiplying appointments, and suddenly you find yourself living that NPC life, being yelled at on the street for insisting on their rights, misreading the situation and thinking you broke the most superficial law. While having the privilege to pay into the tax system that drains your take-home pay, of course. Being a rule follower yourself doesn't always shield you from all these.
• telesilla 2mo ago
  What I got most out of the this article is the difference in trust between his home and host countries. What conditions make a high-trust community? What a fascinating topic.
• raffael_de 2mo ago
  > In January 2024, after it came out that far right politicians had talked about deporting people who already hold a German passport That is - as determined by a German court - something between fake news and severely distorted representation of what happened.
• apexalpha 2mo ago
  I don't think most of those votes are about hating foreigners. Some people believe the story they get every day, that the country is broken and that immigrants are the problem. I just don't understand this. It's not about hate or racism, it's about the speed of the change. We've had too many immigrant, too fast. But since there's no brake on this thing apparently the only option normal politicians seems to have is to be dismissive of negative effects of mass migration so they don't have to admit there's no brake lever. This then pushes people to a party that will at least admit the negative effects.
• deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
• huntoa 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  • tomhow 2mo ago
    We've banned this account.
• oulipo 2mo ago
  Germany is nice, but food keeps me in France haha
• deaux 2mo ago
  Mert, you seem like a great guy, and I agree with most of what you said. I'm also an immigrant. > What stayed with me is that this is probably the only country in the western world that faced its own history properly, admitted the worst things it did, and built a lot of its identity around not repeating them. This however is categorically untrue. If Andrew Tate suddenly starts publicly repenting and then staunchly defends Ghislaine Maxwell, he is not facing his history properly nor admitting the worst things he did. He's just being as awful as he's ever been. If most Germans had faced their own history properly and truly admitted the things it did, they would never have been such huge defendants of the genocide in Gaza. If they had drawn their lessons, the lesson would've been "humanity can get up to atrocious acts, and we need to act against these whenever they happen". Instead, they drew the lesson "we should outwardly act extremely sorry, and treat acts and people completely differently based on their religion/ethnicity". The "change of heart" in Germany over the last 2 or so years doesn't change this. There has of course always been a minority of Germans who did already own their history, but in the last few decades that group never exceeded 20% of (ethnic) Germans.
• apflkx 2mo ago
  > I don't think most of those votes are about hating foreigners. Some people believe the story they get every day, that the country is broken and that immigrants are the problem. You find that story almost everywhere. The rest are angry that certain problems here have not been solved for years by the existing parties, so they look for an alternative. I came to Germany with my parents in the 1990s. Both of them had university degrees, but those qualifications did not really help them much when they arrived. They ended up working in low-paying jobs in Germany's Niedriglohnsektor, which was heavily expanded through reforms under the Social Democratic Party. I grew up in a poor neighborhood and most of the racism I experienced happened during my school years. What was interesting to me is that things changed quite a lot when I moved to a better school to get my Abitur. After I started university, I basically stopped experiencing racism. People were more open, easier to talk to, and seemed less focused on judging others based on where they came from or what they look like. Today I work in tech. There are days when I do not speak German at all, because at work and in my private life I mostly speak English or my native language. My daily life is very different from when I was growing up. This has made me wonder whether interpersonal racism is less about people being hard-core nazis but instead connected to people's life circumstances. I am not talking about institutional racism, which is a different issue, but about everyday interactions between regular people. In my experience, I encountered more hostility in environments with more poverty and fewer opportunities, while people I met later in education and professional life were generally much more open-minded.
• Havoc 2mo ago
  Author seems to adjust well. It gets tricky when high trust and low trust cultures mix and that is seen as an opportunity to be exploited. ie not paying train fares because nobody checks. That breaks the high trust model
• sinuhe69 2mo ago
  It was a good read and a heart warming one. Congratulation to your Einbürgerung! Others have talked about many aspects of the life annd integration process in Germany. But one thing I’m missing from your post is what did you do to your German colleagues and friends? How did you treat them? It’s certainly interesting to know but I think it’s also an important aspect we often forget.
• aslihana 2mo ago
  It warmed my heart, so healthy and beautiful things in this writing. Thank you. And also nice to coincide with you on here, your career always bring hope to us, DEU CS grads and students.
• tsoukase 2mo ago
  I am glad I hear the warm and polite Willkommen hasn't changed. Thirty years ago a 20 something me visited Bonn for Erasmus and the following for medical Residency. Same excellent impressions, same humanely feelings, same satisfying conclusions. Although I returned back to my country, I always question myself if I should stay and regret. But you can never know how an hypothetical life path could unfold, because, well, YOLO.
• xyzelement 2mo ago
  As an immigrant to the US I feel similarly. The country has been wonderful to us and the negative things we hear domestically and abroad just don't track with our experience at all. The OP focuses on respect, admiration and gratitude and finds what to feel this way about the is focused on what he can contribute. These are keys to success and thriving in any society. Had he come with a very different attitude of entitlement and resentment (super common among immigrants as well) he would have had a very different experience. Good for him
• taulien 2mo ago
  I am german. That was such a nice story to read :) It made me feel more warm about my own country - Especially that everyone was and is so nice to you! That's how everyone should get invited here. Not with suspicion but with open arms.
  • throwaway2037 2mo ago
    I am not a German, but I agree: This was a solid and heart-warming blog entry. What fascinates me the most, he is born and raise in Turkey, then moved to Germany. It is not hard to find stories of multi-generational Turks struggling to be accepted, but this fellow made it work. My guess: He tried very hard to integrate (language, culture, etc.), Germans recognized it, and accepted him.
• hippycruncher22 2mo ago
  As a passport German, this was a great read for me. Good luck
• joduplessis 2mo ago
  My wife and I lived in Hamburg for a few years. Nice place and I often miss our lives there. However, I know many other foreigners do not share this experience - even I had to get used to people being hostile to someone stumbling through German. Ultimately we found happiness was being back home (SA) where things were a bit harder, but "nicer".
• gyulai 2mo ago
  What percentage of your productive capacity is used for proper recycling and garbage disposal? ...that's the real metric to measure Germanness by, and yet it never got mentioned once!
  • throwaway2037 2mo ago
    I don't know why people make such a big deal out of this. When I travelled to Germany on holiday, it was a good sign to me that there were so many different bins. It tells me that they are doing a lot of recycling and very little dumping into landfills. If you look at other similarly rich countries that care a lot about the environment, it is similar.
    • gyulai 2mo ago
      ...if you've only visited and never lived here for an extended period of time, you haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg. Also, the rules and systems are different from one municipality to another. Here are some of the highlights for the one I live in. AI image recognition on garbage trucks. -- Yes you've heard right. You do still need a fax machine in Germany to interact with the government. But when it comes to the garbage: Bring in the f##ing AI!! -- If you get the separation or packaging wrong, they won't collect the ton, and will instead leave a note to chastise you. You can meditate on your love for the green party, as you rummage through your weeks-old biodisposables to re-separate, and thank them next time at the polling booth. Some kinds of garbage can go in the collections, others need to go to a recycling center. Just load up your car with everything you need to get rid of. Drive to a recycling center. Find out that it's closed (opening hours are maximally inconvenient; plan on burning several vacation days for visits to recycling centers that are open during your core working hours only). Once you make it to the recycling center, someone will take X, but tell you they don't take Y, and to try the recycling center several towns over. Of course they are closed. Plan on having your car serve as a garbage truck for several weeks, before it's finally empty. Of course, some things you can't get rid of at any recycling center: They need to go to a collection. Do you have several cubic meters of styrofoam to dispose of, after re-furnishing your apartment from IKEA? Well tough luck. Find a place to store them for several weeks until the next collection. Then cut them into pieces so they fit in the yellow bag, which is only available in a single size. Then put the many many bags out into the street. If it's a windy day, collect that stuff from all over the street several times. If you're lucky, the garbage truck actually arrives. More likely: You miss the collection several times, because the pickup times are maximally inconvenient and unpredictable. In the meantime, the storage problem is all yours. Do I need to continue? Because I could continue.
• iseufsif 2mo ago
  congrats on the citizenship, have a potato party
• gfrecvh 2mo ago
  Good read. I was enjoying until that moment about men peeing sitting down.
• sevenzero 2mo ago
  Willkommen in Hamburg! Was a fun read. Seems like you were extremely lucky with your company and flat mate. I know a lot of immigrants working in logistics and they'd tell a different story. It's cool to see that it can work out positively too.
• DiscourseFan 2mo ago
  I spent a lot of time in Europe after graduating college. I thought I wanted to move there, I enjoyed the peacefulness of a daily life and people who were concerned for the general welfare of society over an above profits. Then I came to California. For a woman! I've long since broken up with her, but perhaps I stayed for the tacos and the sunset. And that the American west is still both deluded and guided by its founding myth of the cowboy: don't like the way things are done around here? Do it yourself, form your own posse...certainly, if there is one thing that people in Europe complain about, its the rigidity of social life. The author talks about a flat hierarchy but Germans are funnelled into castes even before they graduate high school. There is freedom in America, but it is an open field, empty and full of despair. You are alone: the state does not care if you get sick, the state does not care if you can't get a job, the state does not care if you find your life meaningless. You can always head west, there is always an environment more unforgiving, an emptiness more vast and unfathomable, formless from the outset but given shape within a tragic struggle, one that few ever overcome. And any overcoming is only a temporary victory, and all your triumphs will fall like Ozymandias, left to dry rot in the craggily rocks and creosote bushes that make up the wasteland of American progress. Even with all those abandoned trailers sitting forlorn, the weak still venture forth thinking that they will defy the odds. One more bone on the desert floor. But at least I have the delusion! And one day, when I'm long gone, and my wealth has been donated to worthy causes, and my kids and even their kids sit on the boards of philanthropic organizations, they will make a biopic about me, and it will be mediocre, and the actor who plays me will be far more attractive than I ever was, and it will get every detail about my life wrong. Then I will have won--and, consider this, Germans: in your country, the only person they ever make the subject of a biopic is Hitler! I think Steve Jobs is a little better than Hitler...
• a2800276 2mo ago
  Thank you for this! As a German, it's a breath of fresh air to read something positive and it's definitely topped up my optimism account a little bit!
• fxwin 2mo ago
  > Across from our office there was an Italian restaurant where we went for pizza sometimes. The pizzas were very tasty and huge, and it was the only place that sold half a pizza. Immediately knew which restaurant (franchise) he is talking about here :D
• MandieD 2mo ago
  Congratulations on your Einbürgerung! That was an uplifting read. My experiences with German bureaucracy have been similarly positive. The rules are the rules… but the rules are the rules, and can be contemplated at home in one’s own time, on one’s own private computer.
• nylonstrung 2mo ago
  > What stayed with me is that this is probably the only country in the western world that faced its own history properly, admitted the worst things it did, and built a lot of its identity around not repeating them. Except it's the most ardent country in the EU when it comes to arming and supporting an ongoing genocide in Gaza and suppressing dissent against that
  • chrisldgk 2mo ago
    To be fair, that is a thing mostly done by the political elites and not an opinion that most citizens (that I’ve interacted with) hold. Most of us would much prefer all of the money that’s being put into weapons for Israel to be invested in our country instead. Then again, there’s currently a big political shift to the right and the US/UK flavor of identity politics seems to have made its way over here, so that’s probably also not changing anytime soon.
  • asyx 2mo ago
    I so wish somebody would go to prison for this.
• gejkd 2mo ago
  I am neither muslim nor Jewish or German. The recent comment in Instagram, YouTube, reddit, twitterinternet pretty much any comment section i see Muslims unequivocally oppose Israel in comment sections that has bottom do with politics. This post makes me skeptical to think the entire idea of making Germans look good is to indirectly oppose jews. I hope people understand what I mean before down voting
• deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
• alwaysmrno 2mo ago
  The thing about Germany and most European countries is that they are that way because of the native population. So unfortunately for MR. Mert Bulan, the more people like him that moves there the less it will feel like Germany, and it will feel more like "home"
• gandhiandy69 2mo ago
  There are many things going in the wrong direction in this country but most things are that are not in the sphere of politics are fine. The problem is mostly in my opinion that political decisions are made by career politicians. We could really use some fresh air in our political system with more participation by the actual society (e.g. make it easier to get a political mandate without deep affiliation in a political party) and less about internal party politics.
  • Gander5739 2mo ago
    > We could really use some fresh air in our political system with more participation by the actual society Sentiments like this always make me think of https://xkcd.com/977/ https://xkcd.com/977/ (under Goode Homolosine).
• tsss 2mo ago
  You worked at XING, didn't you?
• deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
• aslkalska 2mo ago
  Saying that you love rules is insanity - no you don't, nobody does nor should LOVE rules. Some of the rules in Germany not long ago was to put people in furnaces - do you love those rules ?! What you love is predictability, when everyone is stopping at the light, navigating a city becomes easier because it's predictable. Our brains love predictability that's why we love habits - it's comforting and we don't have to be on fight or flight all the time. So again to you and to people in the comments - you don't love rules, nor should you ... what you should do is follow the rules that make sense, challenge those that don't and break those that prevent you from doing what is right.
  • ChrisRR 2mo ago
    Damn, I thought you were about to make a valid point and then instantly went to the nazis
    • aslkalska 2mo ago
      those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it ... go watch Die Welle excellent movie
  • sneurlax 2mo ago
    Plenty of people love rules :) different strokes for different folks…
    • aslkalska 2mo ago
      you should love reading first, it's way more useful
• dustypotato 2mo ago
  Let me offer a counter-perspective, because this triggered me (sorry for the wall of text): * Last year, my net salary went down even though my gross salary remained the same. The same is about to happen again: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article69483c23f6fc544dba9b0048/arbeitnehmer-haben-2026-netto-weniger-im-geldbeutel.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article69483c23f6fc5... * The author fortunately ended up in Hamburg, but in Munich, many people end up stuck with Fiktionsbescheinigungen and expired visas, unable to travel because the waiting time at the KVR is too long. * Friends of mine have been waiting a year and eight months for permanent residence. * If you apply for citizenship, they officially tell you not to even bother inquiring before a year and a half. Many have waited two years for it. * To get a driver's license Neuantrag (which is just permission to start taking classes), it officially takes 3 months, but can take even longer. It's also expensive (around €3k), and changing driving schools is difficult. * Hard to make friends: just look at r/germany. Everyone does activities together and then says goodbye. "Join a Verein" or "Learn the language" don't work as advertised. * Annoying and obscene amount of paperwork and bureaucracy: Your tax office doesn't know about your health or pension insurance contributions even though they are state-managed, so you have to upload these documents or click buttons in ELSTER to retrieve them.(still better than a few years ago) * Many shops close at 7 or 8 PM on weekdays, and supermarkets are closed on Sundays. You always have to rush if you have a long commute. Even grocery delivery services like Flink are constrained by this. Some shops even take a lunch break at 1:30 PM on top of that (idk if this is asking too much). * DHL is so dysfunctional. They sometimes don't even ring when you're home, drop the package at the nearest pickup point, and leave a receipt in your mailbox. But if you go to the address on the receipt, you'll be disappointed because there's fine print stating it's only available for pickup starting from a future date. So you end up making multiple trips, guessing their opening hours (which don't match Google or the sign on the door), and waiting in line. Keep in mind "DHL Packstations" exist 24/7, yet they fail to sometimes reroute packages to them even if configured to do so. * Those insurance portals where everyone reimplements email because "email is insecure, hurr durr": they send you an email with a login link -> an SMS OTP -> a cookie banner -> navigate a badly designed portal to find the latest message -> open the message only to find a PDF attachment. Why a PDF instead of writing the message directly on the portal? Because web text can be changed, whereas a PDF supposedly cannot (lol). * A bakery closes at 19:00. We enter at 18:58, and the worker refuses to serve us - I thought you were supposed to serve customers who enter before closing time. * If you miss an appointment at a branded repair store, they turn you away with zero flexibility or customer friendliness. You have to go back to their website, book another appointment, and travel all the way back later. * Enormous wait times for doctors under public insurance. They aren't proactive, so you have to push for treatment and do your own research just to get a prescription. * Forget about therapists, too. There's a 6+ month waiting list for every therapist on Doctolib - and with recent reforms, getting it reimbursed by public insurance is getting nearly impossible. * They like laws - but a little too much, sometimes inventing their own rules to win arguments. I've seen this on streets where people just argue. * Deutsche Bahn - no need to explain. * Training and qualifications: It takes minimum 10 years to be a therapist, min. 8 years - tax advisor , minimum 8 years to become a lawyer . These are skilled jobs, but come on, all these are 1-3 years more than other countries. Not to mention it's some are gated so that it's tough to graduate. * Also high rent ofc Probably due to this, more citizens leave the country than arrive, and around 50-60% of immigrants end up leaving within a decade too. Overall, the country is a big step up from many other countries, including where I come from - India.
• BigTTYGothGF 2mo ago
  I liked the Rob Zombie original better.
• egeozcan 2mo ago
  Came to Germany to do an MBA at 2009, plan was to go back to Turkey after 5 years. Still there (well currently temporarily in south Turkey for vacation). Germans are very nice, Germany is very nice, and I applied to be German finally last year after getting the 30th "come on be German already" letter (I'm lazy af). They told me (us, together with my wife) that they need 30 months to process the application, lol. There are many things to complain about, many things to love, lots of tolerance, AfD is scary (very similar to AKP, the party that made me leave Turkey in the first place) but these days I think more positive. I'm trying to be one of those people who try to keep things going for everyone. Adlerian stuff :) I think staying here was one of the best decisions of my life. Here's to the next 17 years in this land of the meckerei with love.
• paulbjensen 2mo ago
  That was a great read.
• codingbot3000 2mo ago
  Sounds to me like the author worked at XING / NewWork SE which was a particularly nice German company to work with during their heyday.
• darlenem45 2mo ago
  [flagged]
• darlenem45 2mo ago
  [flagged]
• drbernardi 2mo ago
  What a weird read. I'm an immigrant in Berlin for almost 5 years and my feelings are completely the opposite. I find the Germans impractical, rude, unproductive (always focusing on process instead of outcome... Or on doing the dishes apparently). I also experienced quite a bit of racism. Mind you, it's mostly not the overt racism you could find in other places, but it creeps into everything, it just feels that as a migrant I've got less opportunities and, yes, rights (which doesn't mean that I don't legally have them, it just means that in practice they're much harder to claim). Welfare is either being taken advantage of or stripped away in an inconsiderate and stupid way. And let's not talk about the political system: with a fascist right and a useless left that only cares about signaling (but this is an issue on most of Europe). All in all I just see a falling country without hope for recovery. Well that was my depressing TED talk, happy Sunday!