6 ms·

Until recently I thought "load-bearing seam" was a satirical exaggeration - I'd seen both claudisms independently but never combined. But a couple of days ago i

by Retr0id 3mo ago

Until recently I thought "load-bearing seam" was a satirical exaggeration - I'd seen both claudisms independently but never combined. But a couple of days ago it hit me with "The key structural point first: the only load-bearing seam is [...]"

knollimar 3mo ago
the phrase load-bearing caveat makes me irate
- baq 3mo ago
  Only that one? Not belt-and-suspenders enough
  - knollimar 3mo ago
    It's justa caveat is side to the main point. No human would say that. It's like a load bearing utility shed
hmokiguess 3mo ago
This matters. That's the spine of it.
chmod775 3mo ago
It's language and speech patterns that seem designed to trick readers into believing that claims are correct, even when the claims aren't based on anything and are possibly wrong. It was rewarded for this during training for some reason. Alternative theory: The LLMs only way to "think" about abstract concepts is through language, and this leaks into into conversation it has with humans. But humans generally prefer to communicate on low levels of abstraction, through a back and forth, until the hard-to-express higher abstraction exists in the head of everyone involved - without ever being directly communicated. This is because we don't think using language. Language is merely a lossy translation of our thought into something expressible, happening after the fact or alongside it. So when the LLM starts speaking to us using patterns and terms it created for itself during training to encode abstract thought in language, communicating with it becomes painful.
- pixl97 3mo ago
  The term 'language model' throws some people off thinking you can only put english or french, or both into a model. Technically an LLM can learn about anything that can be digitized. If you wanted to spend a billion dollars training one on wireless signals it wouldn't be impossible for it to connect to your router with the right antenna attached. So only limiting it to the idea of language leaves off a lot of other types of abstractions and concepts they encode.
  - vrighter 3mo ago
    shhh don't give anyone any ideas, because they'll try it and sell it to management, as idiotic as the idea itself is
    - forshaper 3mo ago
      I have a fantasy that we will do this to turn trees into antennas again, with usable bandwidth.
- chrisweekly 3mo ago
  "There is a depth of thought untouched by words, and deeper still a depth of formless feeling untouched by thought." - Rilke Your assertion that we don't think in language is questionable. It runs counter to the lived experience of developing thoughts through writing ("writing isn't capturing thinking -- it is thinking"). I believe there is more to thought than language alone, but I also feel quite sure that language forms an essential part of thinking beyond a base layer of instinctive animalistic associations. Sophisticated thoughts are impossible to construct or maintain in the absence of language to represent concepts. Edt to add: I cited Rilke because I find the notion [some deep thoughts are beyond language] interesting. But I disagree with the idea that language is only ever epiphenomenal (co-occurring with thought), or akin to a hard-of-hearing scribe attempting to convey thoughts which always have independent existence.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
avaer 3mo ago
You can thank everyone who thumbs up this response along the training pipeline. Modern LLMs are not too different from Reddit/Twitter in that regard, I'm sure the AI labs learned (lol) a lot from them re: how to do "engagement".
chickensong 3mo ago
People make fun of the language, rightfully so in some cases, but also it's often quite effective language. "load-bearing seam" communicates quite a lot in very few characters.
- boron1006 3mo ago
  Or in a way, nothing at all.
  - chickensong 3mo ago
    On its own, yes, but not in context. I think one of the problems with Claude's stock output is it assumes the reader has a firm grip on the context of the output, which is often untrue. Stock output is exhausting to read because you have to unwind metaphors in an unstated context.
    - boron1006 3mo ago
      What I’m saying is that it often uses metaphors in ways that are subtly wrong or don’t make any sense.
- dxdm 3mo ago
  It's a clunky metaphor, and it's used clumsily: not for the sake of its clunkiness, but by mixing two decent individual parts in an attempt to have them reinforce each other, but ending up with something weaker. It communicates an absence of thought and awareness, blind groping at building blocks without understanding. It's borderline vapid, and quite annoying.
  - drooby 3mo ago
    I don't follow, the words make perfect sense together in most software engineering contexts. "Seam" is an industry standard term coined by Michael Feathers in Working Effectively with Legacy Code. To call a seam load bearing means it's performing critical work for the dependent class, perhaps a database query. A seam that is not load-bearing would be something that is just injected for testability - maybe a date provider that provides some constant time to avoid flaky tests. Tbh, this is quite literally the opposite of vapid. A whole book was written about them and their importance, and how to leverage them. In my experience, Claude uses the word accurately. Code has a lot of seams, and seams are an important thing to communicate when working with code. Therefore, expect to see the word often. Personally, I don't mind it at all. I'm glad the industry is finally standardizing our language more. Makes it easier for me to communicate with other engineers.
javier2 3mo ago
I see it at least 3-4 times per week...
reinitctxoffset 3mo ago
Fable has a Chomsky grammar.
- LelouBil 3mo ago
  Hello, completely hijacking your recent comment because I found no other way to contact you. You wrote a month ago that you were close to releasing something called "nix-compile", how is it going ?
  - reinitctxoffset 3mo ago
    https://github.com/hypermodern-consulting/narsil https://github.com/hypermodern-consulting/narsil

by Retr0id 3mo ago

knollimar 3mo ago

the phrase load-bearing caveat makes me irate

baq 3mo ago
Only that one? Not belt-and-suspenders enough
- knollimar 3mo ago
  It's justa caveat is side to the main point. No human would say that. It's like a load bearing utility shed

hmokiguess 3mo ago

This matters. That's the spine of it.

chmod775 3mo ago

It's language and speech patterns that seem designed to trick readers into believing that claims are correct, even when the claims aren't based on anything and are possibly wrong. It was rewarded for this during training for some reason. Alternative theory: The LLMs only way to "think" about abstract concepts is through language, and this leaks into into conversation it has with humans. But humans generally prefer to communicate on low levels of abstraction, through a back and forth, until the hard-to-express higher abstraction exists in the head of everyone involved - without ever being directly communicated. This is because we don't think using language. Language is merely a lossy translation of our thought into something expressible, happening after the fact or alongside it. So when the LLM starts speaking to us using patterns and terms it created for itself during training to encode abstract thought in language, communicating with it becomes painful.

pixl97 3mo ago
The term 'language model' throws some people off thinking you can only put english or french, or both into a model. Technically an LLM can learn about anything that can be digitized. If you wanted to spend a billion dollars training one on wireless signals it wouldn't be impossible for it to connect to your router with the right antenna attached. So only limiting it to the idea of language leaves off a lot of other types of abstractions and concepts they encode.
- vrighter 3mo ago
  shhh don't give anyone any ideas, because they'll try it and sell it to management, as idiotic as the idea itself is
  - forshaper 3mo ago
    I have a fantasy that we will do this to turn trees into antennas again, with usable bandwidth.
chrisweekly 3mo ago
"There is a depth of thought untouched by words, and deeper still a depth of formless feeling untouched by thought." - Rilke Your assertion that we don't think in language is questionable. It runs counter to the lived experience of developing thoughts through writing ("writing isn't capturing thinking -- it is thinking"). I believe there is more to thought than language alone, but I also feel quite sure that language forms an essential part of thinking beyond a base layer of instinctive animalistic associations. Sophisticated thoughts are impossible to construct or maintain in the absence of language to represent concepts. Edt to add: I cited Rilke because I find the notion [some deep thoughts are beyond language] interesting. But I disagree with the idea that language is only ever epiphenomenal (co-occurring with thought), or akin to a hard-of-hearing scribe attempting to convey thoughts which always have independent existence.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]

avaer 3mo ago

You can thank everyone who thumbs up this response along the training pipeline. Modern LLMs are not too different from Reddit/Twitter in that regard, I'm sure the AI labs learned (lol) a lot from them re: how to do "engagement".

chickensong 3mo ago

People make fun of the language, rightfully so in some cases, but also it's often quite effective language. "load-bearing seam" communicates quite a lot in very few characters.

boron1006 3mo ago
Or in a way, nothing at all.
- chickensong 3mo ago
  On its own, yes, but not in context. I think one of the problems with Claude's stock output is it assumes the reader has a firm grip on the context of the output, which is often untrue. Stock output is exhausting to read because you have to unwind metaphors in an unstated context.
  - boron1006 3mo ago
    What I’m saying is that it often uses metaphors in ways that are subtly wrong or don’t make any sense.
dxdm 3mo ago
It's a clunky metaphor, and it's used clumsily: not for the sake of its clunkiness, but by mixing two decent individual parts in an attempt to have them reinforce each other, but ending up with something weaker. It communicates an absence of thought and awareness, blind groping at building blocks without understanding. It's borderline vapid, and quite annoying.
- drooby 3mo ago
  I don't follow, the words make perfect sense together in most software engineering contexts. "Seam" is an industry standard term coined by Michael Feathers in Working Effectively with Legacy Code. To call a seam load bearing means it's performing critical work for the dependent class, perhaps a database query. A seam that is not load-bearing would be something that is just injected for testability - maybe a date provider that provides some constant time to avoid flaky tests. Tbh, this is quite literally the opposite of vapid. A whole book was written about them and their importance, and how to leverage them. In my experience, Claude uses the word accurately. Code has a lot of seams, and seams are an important thing to communicate when working with code. Therefore, expect to see the word often. Personally, I don't mind it at all. I'm glad the industry is finally standardizing our language more. Makes it easier for me to communicate with other engineers.

javier2 3mo ago

I see it at least 3-4 times per week...

reinitctxoffset 3mo ago

Fable has a Chomsky grammar.

LelouBil 3mo ago
Hello, completely hijacking your recent comment because I found no other way to contact you. You wrote a month ago that you were close to releasing something called "nix-compile", how is it going ?
- reinitctxoffset 3mo ago
  https://github.com/hypermodern-consulting/narsil https://github.com/hypermodern-consulting/narsil