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The point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway. There
by maratc 3mo ago
The point missing in the article is that, in order to enter the US, one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway.
There are two options: visa-free with the biometric data passing on the wire (no hassle), or visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one).
As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport") and only on arrival, in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure.
- RandomLensman 3mo agoIf the US gets the data anyway, why the need for access?
- kalleboo 3mo agoI would imagine it to match that the biometrics on file with the biometrics presented at the border to catch forgeries?
- RandomLensman 3mo agoIs there a high incidence of forgeries?
- bluGill 3mo agoProbably not high, but forgeries are the people of most concern. Most people are honest travelers (either on business or vacation), and will go back home. Most people only commit crimes of the type "I didn't know this thing was illegal here: it is legal and common back home" - and the agent who catches it responds "I find a bunch of you every day who didn't know that - just put it in the destroy bucket and have fun" (technically they can arrest you for trying to bring something illegal in, but they know this is an honest mistake that isn't worth doing anything more about) The forgeries are rare, but they are also the people customs cares most about. Those people who are planning to commit a serious crime of some sort.
- christoph 3mo agoAlso think espionage/intelligence - those passports won't be forgeries (as they will gov issued), but there will be people travelling around the world with multiple "identities" shall we say, and this is going to make all that much harder.
- CPLX 3mo agoIt's not forgery so much as people using the same passport. People look similar.
- RandomLensman 3mo agoThen fingerprints in passport and person shouldn't match, no?
- tokai 3mo agoTo reduce friction of traveling to the US obviously.
- RandomLensman 3mo agoNo more waiting in a long immigration queue?
- phoronixrly 3mo agoI've always wanted to wait in an ICE concentration camp instead
- maratc 3mo agoI assume you would have to wait anyway but the processing of your person would be faster. With that, I much prefer US immigration queues than EU immigration queues — as of 2026, my US times are much faster than my EU times.
- ruszki 3mo agoIt probably matters where, because the longest waiting times were always in the US for me. Especially since digital passports, the queue into the EU is always extremely quick with those, while it’s still the same into the US (at least in Boston and Los Angeles, where I usually land).
- some_random 3mo agoIt's to validate that the fingerprints of the person arriving are the same as the fingerprints of the person who got the passport.
- RandomLensman 3mo agoThe fingerprints in the passport can't do that?
- rafram 3mo agoMost countries' passports don't include fingerprint data. The US passport application process is entirely digital/by mail, for example, with no fingerprinting at all.
- RandomLensman 3mo agoEU passports do.
- mothballed 3mo agoThe average US border official is a (angry) moron (with a badge and a gun). They've literally fingerprinted me on entry with a US passport because they were too stupid to figure out US citizens don't have to do that. I have been interrogated by CBP to ask if I "work in the country" despite being a citizen. Anything that changes the process from the simplest one-size-fits all will be fucked up, they cannot differentiate the process between foreigner and citizen let alone EU vs some other place. Edit: Every time I share my border stories I get accused of lying or having done something wrong. I have much much crazier ones. No one believes it until it happens to them. Count yourself lucky if you've never been strip searched or imprisoned by these psychopaths, any belief they are reasonable are formed because you were lucky and have a naïve sort of optimism that if you do everything right it won't happen to you.
- rafram 3mo ago
- thomasahle 3mo ago> Whereas in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once Once for each arrival.
- _zoltan_ 3mo agoNo. I haven't had to do it in at least two years and I travel here frequently on an EU passport.
- maratc 3mo agoNot my experience the last time I entered. I travelled with a friend for whom it was his first time visiting the US. He was fingerprinted, I wasn’t (I was fingerprinted a while ago on one of my previous trips.)
- calgoo 3mo agoI have gotten fingerprinted every time i arrive, before i got a green card and after i got a green card. Not sure if its related to something else, country of origin or country im traveling from etc.
- maratc 3mo agoOk, it could depend on the type of visa too. I only enter for tourism (B2 I think) and have never overstayed.
- happymellon 3mo agoNever overstaying, always fingerprinted on arrival.
- anvuong 3mo agoYour profile probably flagged some checks so they needed to get your fingerprints to actually confirm you are the one on the visa. I've never had to give fingerprints except for my first US visa.
- bluGill 3mo agoDoes the EU really collect that, or only sometimes? I know the EU reserves the right to collect all that, but do they in practice? I haven't been to the EU in a decade, but last time I was there I was standing in the customs line for non-EU residents and someone official saw my US passport in hand and directed me to the much shorter/faster EU citizens line. I walked right through customs without being checked at all.
- mothballed 3mo agoThe EU is very sporadic. I walked straight into Sweden from a flight from Iraq and customs was not even there, and passport control waved everyone through with the most cursory of glances.
- lp4v4n 3mo agoI'm not sure the customs official knows where you came from (unless they explicitly ask, of course), because in my experience normally you get off the airplane and join a common queue. I think your passport counts a lot more when it comes to how strict the scrutiny is going to be. I'm assuming you're American, if you had an Iraqi passport, maybe you would have to answer a few more questions.
- bojan 3mo agoNot the EU, but I once accidentally entered Switzerland in the Zürich airport. The passport counter was unmanned and the doorway next to it was open, so I assumed there is another checkpoint somewhere further. When a guy started chasing after me 30 seconds later I realized my assumption was wrong. But there really wasn't a way to know.
- zamadatix 3mo agoThe last few trip I've taken through Europe this year have changed to the new fingerprinting system.
- iso1631 3mo agoIts changed in the last year or so. Officially it started in October 2025, it's been a bit of a disaster in terms of implementation. It's called the Entry/Exit System (EES) I've had my fingerprints taken every time I've been to the US, although not always all the fingers every time, presumably on subsequent visits if you have passport + right hand matches, they don't bother scanning left hand or thumbs. I've certainly had the full scan on multiple occasions though.
- jjgreen 3mo agoYou missed the third option: don't go to the US.
- maratc 3mo ago... or to EU, or to UK, or to anywhere at all. Just stay at home.
- nacnud 3mo agoObligatory reference to "Remain Indoors" sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnd1jKcfBRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnd1jKcfBRE
- cassianoleal 3mo agoWhat if home is one of those places? :panic:
- drstewart 3mo agoYou missed a fourth option: renounce your European citizenship
- surgical_fire 3mo agoThere's a third option - Not going to the US. It is my preferred option.
- meta_gunslinger 3mo agoVirtue signal received.
- NietTim 3mo agoSo let the people who want to go to the US do that and don't send data from the vast majority of people who will never visit the US there. It's claimed that only data of traveler's will be retrieved by the US but it's not 2012 anymore, we all know better.
- eigenspace 3mo agoWhat's unclear to me here is this: under this new scheme does the USA get access to the biometric data of people not travelling to the USA?
- dinkelberg 3mo agoFrom the analysis linked in TFA: "The automated query can be based on: * Identity information included in the application or in travel documents, such as name, date of birth, national ID number, and/or * the fingerprint of an individual." Sounds like they could send requests to that computer system just based on publicly available information on a person like name and date of birth, even if the person never applied for a visa or tried to enter the US.
- eigenspace 3mo agoWell, a national ID number isnt usually publicly available info, even if it can be obtained by the US government through illicit means. But yeah, it does sound that way, but certainly not clear cut to me what the situation is. I.e. does the agreement involve clauses about what to do if this is abused? Do we have a way to detect if theyre using this on non-travellers? Etc.
- dinkelberg 3mo agoThis is the leaked draft: https://statewatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/wk_5183_2026pdf.pdf https://statewatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/wk_5183_20... It's not clear how it is supposed to work in detail. But it sounds like it could be implemented in a way that makes illegitimate queries possible. It doesn't sound like they want to really ensure that you can catch those.
- meibo 3mo agoIn multiple European countries, national ID numbers are public information that can be searched by name and address (i.e. Sweden)
- 3mo ago
- beej71 3mo agoThis all reminds me about how RealID was vital to secure us from terrorism, and it took 20 years to get it in place... with no significant terrorist actions in that timeframe. IMHO this level of tracking ain't worth the safety gained. Seems like safety gain is just the excuse at this point.
- dataflow 3mo agoEdit: sorry, I misunderstood the post.
- moomin 3mo agoI think a better way of describing it would be, someone broke into your house. The police said they'd patrol it, but it would take 20 years to set up. In those 20 years, no-one broke into your house. You might suspect they had other reasons for wanting to patrol outside your house.
- continuational 3mo agoThe parent post is saying that the officer didn't show up for 20 years, with no burglaries in your neighborhood in between.
- iinnPP 3mo agoUnmentioned is the effect of having officers watch your home the entire time. Which is the tradeoff not worth the hassle for everyone.
- whimsicalism 3mo agoA national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.
- redsocksfan45 3mo ago[dead]
- neonstatic 3mo ago> one needs to give the US Govt their photo and fingerprints ("biometric data") anyway. Standard practice everywhere in Asia.
- shevy-java 3mo agoBoth the USA and the EU are doing Evil here. However had, this is not solely confind to biometric data only - this is about selling data to outside agencies, so the EU betrays EU citizens here.
- testing22321 3mo ago> in the US you only need to go through fingerprinting only once (or maybe "once per passport") I’ve entered the US something like 150 times over 20 years. Visa free (ESTA) and on a B1 tourist visa. I’ve been fingerprinted and photographed every single time.
- jasonlotito 3mo agoAs has been discussed elsewhere, this sounds more like you are flagged than SOP.
- testing22321 3mo agoNever had a problem, never any hint or talk that anything is amiss. Always extremely routine.
- whimsicalism 3mo ago> never any hint or talk that anything is amiss there never is
- maratc 3mo agoWell, entering the US an average of 7.5 times each year is hardly usual, unless one's a Canadian living near the border and jumping to a Costco on the other side.
- testing22321 3mo agoLive in Canada, not a citizen. It’s nice to go south to Alaska and see liquid water for 6 months of the year when we can’t.
- MarceliusK 3mo ago[dead]
- florakel 3mo agoNo, if you don’t change your passport you only have to scan your fingerprints once in the EU.
- maratc 3mo agoI have just returned from the EU last week and I have been fingerprinted twice — once on entry and once on exit. The US passport holders get fingerprinted on entry only, as I’ve heard.
- florakel 3mo agoOk, weird, I don’t know how the system works then. My wife is Colombian and on her last entry she just scanned her passport and that was it.
- maratc 3mo agoIf you're an EU citizen, it could be that your wife has an EU residence permit. The rules for EU residents are different.
- rypskar 3mo agoIs that good or bad? Maybe a naive thought but the first I think is that check every time is to check biometrics matches with what is in the passport without storing them, checking only once mean your picture and fingerprint is stored a central place and is used in combination to later verify that the passport is yours
- maratc 3mo agoBefore this change, my average time for EU immigration check was 10-20 min. After this change, it's 2-3 hours. Is that good or bad? I don't care much about "verify that the passport is yours". For centuries, the person presenting the passport was supposed to be the owner of it, with their photo (aka "biometrics") as a proof. Comparing your passport picture with your face is what border controls have been doing since forever.
- bilekas 3mo ago> in the EU you need to go through it both on every arrival and every departure. You absolutely don't. If you've done it once on your passport/ID you don't need to do it again. And infact there are fast track autonomous lanes that you can just scan your EU passport with biometric chip and fly through. (In theory, there's always idiots who don't realise they don't have it)
- elAhmo 3mo agoPeople without EU citizenship also enter EU. Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster, and as op has pointed out, people do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country. In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.
- bilekas 3mo ago> Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster How ? > People do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country. If the data hasn't had time to propagate then it's just a flag that you need to do it. > In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues. Yes, if I arrive in Firenze airport there is maybe 2 people working on the border, if I'm in the Schengen, I don't even need to be checked. I'm not sure what you're talking about. > People without EU citizenship also enter EU. Clearly I'm not talking about these cases. You're not from the EU, you need to follow the rules. Sorry.
- input_sh 3mo agoWith the introduction of EES system (whose implementation was completed only a few months ago), the full data of non-EU citizens gets collected the first time we enter the EU and then we have to verify it every subsequent time. Not much of a hassle at airports due to the availability of self-service kiosks, somewhat of a hassle when crossing with a car, and infuriatingly annoying when using a mass transit option like a bus or a train where everyone has to step outside and wait in line to do that, adding about 20-30 minutes to the border crossing.
- thatfrenchguy 3mo agoYou don’t get fingerprints collected on departure, just on arrival. Unless you go through automated gates maybe?
- maratc 3mo agoNot my experience: I’ve been fingerprinted on both the arrival and the departure. There was no automatic gate on the departure, just an officer. US passport holders only get fingerprinted on the arrival, as I’ve heard.
- whimsicalism 3mo agowrong
- isodev 3mo agoAlso worth nothing that if you’ve verified your ID on LinkedIn or anything that uses Persona or some other flavour of Palantir - the US already has all this data and much more.
- encoderer 3mo agoFlew into CDG two days ago. US citizens. Passport control did not take fingerprints from any of us.
- andai 3mo ago>As a side note, the EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now. Does this also apply if you arrive by dinghy?
- lazide 3mo agoWe must close this dinghy gap!
- DocTomoe 3mo agoWith the major distinction being that a lot of Europeans have absolutely no intention of ever visiting the United States, a country with a history of sometimes more, sometimes less hostility and aggressive intelligence agencies. If you want to visit a hellhole, go through the hassle. But don't hand out all of our data just because you want to do joyrides.
- maratc 3mo agoCan't see where "the major distinction" lies. It's also true that a lot of US citizens have absolutely no intention of ever visiting Europe -- as to hostilities, well the last two World Wars didn't exactly start in the US.
- DocTomoe 3mo agoGood, so we can agree that the minor hassle for the minority to get a slightly slower immigration line at the airport does not outweigh privacy rights for the majority. BTW: Where, and when, those wars started is a splendid way for historians to spend an afternoon discussing. The point is that after 1945, the US never stopped fighting wars all over the world, using euphemisms sometimes, sometimes slogans, but it always was war.
- Alive-in-2025 3mo agoI hate all this biometric scanning on all sides. As an American it makes me not want to visit the EU to avoid being scanned, and I'd understand the other way too if an EU member was visiting the us. In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too? It's probably too late but we should try to get rid of this.
- whimsicalism 3mo agoI suspect that false imprisonment/recognition cases are lessened with biometrics, not increased. I absolutely believe you can point me to individual cases though.
- xboxnolifes 3mo agoHow could random prints be falsely linked to me if my prints are not in a database? It can only happen if they are.
- whimsicalism 3mo agoYou can be falsely linked to a crime without biometric evidence and excluded on the basis of biometric evidence
- crote 3mo agoThat can also be trivially done without a biometrics database: just collect and compare when they become a suspect!
- 8fingerlouie 3mo agoYour DNA and fingerprints are literally everywhere you go, and they don't decay as soon as you leave. Hell, even passing close by a person can transfer your DNA to their clothes. If the cops have a DNA Database, they "just" need to collect all DNA from a crime scene to compile a list of suspects, and by doing so, they're flipping the question of guilt around, you're no longer innocent until proven guilty, but guilty until proven innocent. You now have to prove you didn't "do it".
- charlieyu1 3mo agoI’m just annoyed at all the visa-free claims while they charge you and you need a pre-approval anyway.
- HDBaseT 3mo ago>EU also collects photo and fingerprints from visitors now on every arrival and departure. This world is very depressing. I think this may be my last year on the planet.
- markdown 3mo ago> visa (a major hassle) and biometric data passing in the airport (a minor one). Since US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs, it's relatively not a hassle at all.
- maratc 3mo ago> US-issued visas are multiple entry for 10yrs Some of them but definitely not all of them. > it's relatively not a hassle at all I guess you have never had to hunt for the online queue at the embassy and never had to travel (potentially hundreds of miles) for the interview at that embassy. In which case, lucky you! However "it's not a hassle for me" is different from "it's not a hassle at all".
- yeputons 3mo agoIf you're lucky with your citizenship. Others get 3yrs or 1yr max. And that's after administrative processing if you're unlucky, which might take years: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2020/11/09/a-us-visa-in-937-days/ https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2020/11/09/a-us-visa-in-937-days... And for some passports in the last, say, six years, the probability is significantly increased. There is no official information as far as I know, just some anecdotical evidence from forums. And before all of that you have to remember all your trips for the last 10 years to enter into DS-160 (you learn to keep a spreadsheet after the first time you do that, UK visas require that as well). And secure an appointment, which (since 2025) must happen in the country of your citizenship, or the country of your residence, which you should prove (sometimes it takes years to get residency documents in some EU countries). If you're unlucky, the waiting time for an appointment might be measured in years too. If you get a waiting time after all, sometimes there are just no appointments available whatsoever with no extra information. Attending a company event is, of course, not a valid reason to get an expedited appointment. At least not that I've heard. And I'm sure there are even more tricky things that I haven't heard of.
- markdown 3mo agoYes, I know it depends on citizenship. In my country, on top of all the hurdles you mentioned, you have to deposit about $7,000 USD into a US government account as a guarantee that you won't overstay. You get that back when you return to your country. That's new Trump policy that hopefully doesn't outlast his presidency.
- greatgib 3mo agoFirst it could be something depending on you enrolling like airport fastpass and second it would be a feature that it is complicated for both side to record and process the info so that they have the incentive to do the minimum possible. But don't be naive, clearly US is not pushing so strong on this feature that it is clearly not just to facilitate your travel and reduce processing time but because they know that they will be able to tap as a friser in the best biometric database of foreign citizens that they could.