4 ms·

> This situation has.. no precedent as far as I can tell.. Microsoft has been allowing this sort of ludicrous behavior for decades at this point, it's not a n

> This situation has.. no precedent as far as I can tell.. Microsoft has been allowing this sort of ludicrous behavior for decades at this point, it's not a new issue. What's new is how visible LG made their malware, compared to previous auto-installs that happen like this, where they try to make the thing not so in your face, as they know there will be a huge backlash. I don't know what Microsoft is thinking even allowing and enabling this sort of thing, they've lost all touch when it comes to building things for users.

MichaelZuo 3mo ago
Maybe some decision makers do indeed have negative aspirations…
joe_mamba 3mo ago
>I don't know what Microsoft is thinking even allowing and enabling this sort of thing This has been a feature since Windows 7, and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs.
- coldtea 3mo ago
  >and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. A driver shouldn't be a front-facing program that shows ads of any kind. It should be sandboxed and follow strict APIs to talk to the OS and that's it - any extra options should be shown inline in the main e.g. printer or mouse dialog.
  - threetonesun 3mo ago
    And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? I think extra options in an app is fine, but you should have to download it. At which point who knows what you’ve opened yourself to but at least you chose to do it.
    - solarkraft 3mo ago
      Yes! Extra apps suck.
    - VorpalWay 3mo ago
      > And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? Actually, why not? The driver could declare a list/tree of extra configurable options, and windows could generate a configuration dialog for them. I think this is already is thing in Windows for NICs, I remember seeing TCP offload options when I go into properties for a NIC in the device manager. You just need to make it a bit more accessible to non-tech users and with more modern control options such as colour wheels for RGB. And the Linux software for these sort of devices (when such software exist) don't tend to be as bloated. Usually the driver just exposes some control files under /sys and someone else builds a GUI or such on top. But there is no reason you couldn't also expose a schema that describes what the options do to make a more generic GUI for those.
      - threetonesun 3mo ago
        As a user I agree, but I think this misunderstands the Windows market. Forget about mice for a second, if you look at GPU drivers between Linux and Windows on Linux they... just work, and you can use some apps to modify exposed features, like you said. On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with.
        coldtea 3mo ago
        >On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with. What we're saying is this shouldn't be allowed by the OS to begin with. Not to merely use the peripheral in any case. Whether Microsoft is happy with allowing it, is another matter. Perhaps some law accompanied with hefty fines can make them less happy doing it.
  - michaelmrose 3mo ago
    Linux users think of a driver as the thing that makes my silently hardware do the existing things its supposed to do like every other item in its class. Windows users think of the driver as what makes the hardware do what everything in its class does but subtly different and somehow glued to a command center with its own unique and bad GUI auto started, in the tray, with its own update schedule, and ads.
  - MatejKafka 3mo ago
    How exactly do you propose to sandbox drivers running in kernel space? Do you even know how drivers work? (I'm guessing no, based on this comment)
    - masfuerte 3mo ago
      The User-Mode Driver Framework is a thing. Most plug-in devices do not need (or have) a kernel-mode driver.
      - MatejKafka 3mo ago
        Yes, but unless all 3rd party drivers can run in userspace (which is not really feasible), Microsoft needs to give vendors the option to install a kernel driver, at which point a vendor can always decide to ship a kernel driver and bypass any restrictions. Imo, the only thing Microsoft can meaningfully do here from their side is threaten LG with pulling all their drivers if they keep doing this.
        dwattttt 3mo ago
        Drivers still need to pass certification & get signed. Microsoft does get to reject them. I can't imagine the group doing this validation is sufficiently manned/funded; it's a cost centre, and the effects of cutting it don't show up for years.
        MatejKafka 3mo ago
        I expect that process to be mostly automated, I wouldn't expect the MS folks at the testing lab to do much (if any) manual testing, especially for a new version of a previously approved driver. I'm not surprised that the driver got approved, especially if the previous versions already had some user UI and this update "just" added the ads. What I would hope now is for MS to either pull the updated driver or ask LG to roll the change back themselves, possibly under the thread of pulling their drivers altogether (iirc they done that with other companies in the past).
    - 3mo ago
- wat10000 3mo ago
  Auto-run when inserting a CD worked great, until people realized you could do bad stuff with it. User action must be required to run or install new software.
  - jayd16 3mo ago
    OK so you get a pop-up that says "install driver or it won't work" and so you do and then you're at the same situation.
    - wat10000 3mo ago
      Or you don’t and you return this piece of garbage for a refund. I hope you can see how this is much superior to auto-installing malware.
- marcosdumay 3mo ago
  > Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs. Except for every printer, some popular GPUs, Microsoft's peripherals...
ihsw 3mo ago
If you have been reading the news about Windows 11 then I will enlighten you -- they view the Windows 11 consumer business as a cost center that must be mitigated. As such, all manner of monetization has been approved and it will continued to be approved without regard for user experience. This article obviates that this is not an LG problem, it is a Microsoft problem. Also, don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world.
- Grombobulous 3mo ago
  Just look at Microsoft’s revenue breakdown that they publish. Windows revenue is alarmingly small. I don’t think it’s a loss leader but Microsoft gets almost nothing from OEM Windows licenses and basically nobody buys it retail. This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked.
  - geon 3mo ago
    Aren’t ms completely dependent on consumer windows for mindshare? I doubt anyone would bother getting into programming with ms tech unless they just happened to run it on their desktop.
    - eastbound 3mo ago
      MS owns Typescript and NPM and Azure and LinkedIn. I know you meant programming on Windows, but even if Windows disappears, many of us will owe our job to Microsoft.
      - solarkraft 3mo ago
        They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization, but that ought to be easy enough to fork. NPM is a bigger one, but also not too huge. Azure is only used by people who already have Microsoft/Windows buy-in.
        chuckadams 3mo ago

MichaelZuo 3mo ago

Maybe some decision makers do indeed have negative aspirations…

joe_mamba 3mo ago

>I don't know what Microsoft is thinking even allowing and enabling this sort of thing This has been a feature since Windows 7, and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs.

coldtea 3mo ago
>and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. A driver shouldn't be a front-facing program that shows ads of any kind. It should be sandboxed and follow strict APIs to talk to the OS and that's it - any extra options should be shown inline in the main e.g. printer or mouse dialog.
- threetonesun 3mo ago
  And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? I think extra options in an app is fine, but you should have to download it. At which point who knows what you’ve opened yourself to but at least you chose to do it.
  - solarkraft 3mo ago
    Yes! Extra apps suck.
  - VorpalWay 3mo ago
    > And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? Actually, why not? The driver could declare a list/tree of extra configurable options, and windows could generate a configuration dialog for them. I think this is already is thing in Windows for NICs, I remember seeing TCP offload options when I go into properties for a NIC in the device manager. You just need to make it a bit more accessible to non-tech users and with more modern control options such as colour wheels for RGB. And the Linux software for these sort of devices (when such software exist) don't tend to be as bloated. Usually the driver just exposes some control files under /sys and someone else builds a GUI or such on top. But there is no reason you couldn't also expose a schema that describes what the options do to make a more generic GUI for those.
    - threetonesun 3mo ago
      As a user I agree, but I think this misunderstands the Windows market. Forget about mice for a second, if you look at GPU drivers between Linux and Windows on Linux they... just work, and you can use some apps to modify exposed features, like you said. On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with.
      - coldtea 3mo ago
        >On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with. What we're saying is this shouldn't be allowed by the OS to begin with. Not to merely use the peripheral in any case. Whether Microsoft is happy with allowing it, is another matter. Perhaps some law accompanied with hefty fines can make them less happy doing it.
- michaelmrose 3mo ago
  Linux users think of a driver as the thing that makes my silently hardware do the existing things its supposed to do like every other item in its class. Windows users think of the driver as what makes the hardware do what everything in its class does but subtly different and somehow glued to a command center with its own unique and bad GUI auto started, in the tray, with its own update schedule, and ads.
- MatejKafka 3mo ago
  How exactly do you propose to sandbox drivers running in kernel space? Do you even know how drivers work? (I'm guessing no, based on this comment)
  - masfuerte 3mo ago
    The User-Mode Driver Framework is a thing. Most plug-in devices do not need (or have) a kernel-mode driver.
    - MatejKafka 3mo ago
      Yes, but unless all 3rd party drivers can run in userspace (which is not really feasible), Microsoft needs to give vendors the option to install a kernel driver, at which point a vendor can always decide to ship a kernel driver and bypass any restrictions. Imo, the only thing Microsoft can meaningfully do here from their side is threaten LG with pulling all their drivers if they keep doing this.
      - dwattttt 3mo ago
        Drivers still need to pass certification & get signed. Microsoft does get to reject them. I can't imagine the group doing this validation is sufficiently manned/funded; it's a cost centre, and the effects of cutting it don't show up for years.
        MatejKafka 3mo ago
        I expect that process to be mostly automated, I wouldn't expect the MS folks at the testing lab to do much (if any) manual testing, especially for a new version of a previously approved driver. I'm not surprised that the driver got approved, especially if the previous versions already had some user UI and this update "just" added the ads. What I would hope now is for MS to either pull the updated driver or ask LG to roll the change back themselves, possibly under the thread of pulling their drivers altogether (iirc they done that with other companies in the past).
  - 3mo ago
wat10000 3mo ago
Auto-run when inserting a CD worked great, until people realized you could do bad stuff with it. User action must be required to run or install new software.
- jayd16 3mo ago
  OK so you get a pop-up that says "install driver or it won't work" and so you do and then you're at the same situation.
  - wat10000 3mo ago
    Or you don’t and you return this piece of garbage for a refund. I hope you can see how this is much superior to auto-installing malware.
marcosdumay 3mo ago
> Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs. Except for every printer, some popular GPUs, Microsoft's peripherals...

ihsw 3mo ago

If you have been reading the news about Windows 11 then I will enlighten you -- they view the Windows 11 consumer business as a cost center that must be mitigated. As such, all manner of monetization has been approved and it will continued to be approved without regard for user experience. This article obviates that this is not an LG problem, it is a Microsoft problem. Also, don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world.

Grombobulous 3mo ago
Just look at Microsoft’s revenue breakdown that they publish. Windows revenue is alarmingly small. I don’t think it’s a loss leader but Microsoft gets almost nothing from OEM Windows licenses and basically nobody buys it retail. This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked.
- geon 3mo ago
  Aren’t ms completely dependent on consumer windows for mindshare? I doubt anyone would bother getting into programming with ms tech unless they just happened to run it on their desktop.
  - eastbound 3mo ago
    MS owns Typescript and NPM and Azure and LinkedIn. I know you meant programming on Windows, but even if Windows disappears, many of us will owe our job to Microsoft.
    - solarkraft 3mo ago
      They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization, but that ought to be easy enough to fork. NPM is a bigger one, but also not too huge. Azure is only used by people who already have Microsoft/Windows buy-in.
      - chuckadams 3mo ago