13 ms·

Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality risk than sleep duration (2023)

759 points by bilsbie 3mo ago

shykes 3mo ago
Well, I'm screwed...
- acron0 3mo ago
  My thought exactly. For people who struggle with this, and conventional wisdom doesn't seem to stick, what are we supposed to do?
  - Zababa 3mo ago
    Hard to answer precisely without knowing what conventional wisdom didn't stick. The common levers I know and that worked at least a bit for me: - start by having a fixed waking time, and get sunlight or bright light quickly after waking up. Normally relatively fixed sleep time is supposed to follow. For me waking up is the easy part, transforming that into getting up and going outside is harder. Another option here is a strong (like, really strong) lamp on a timer, or letting the morning light in your bedroom (this one is usually not recommended I think, most people seem to be blackout curtains style, but for me it gave me a nice 6am waking time with good sleep last summer). - melatonin. Two main ways: using it as a kind of hypnotic, so ~30 minutes before sleep, experimenting with 0.3mg to ~2mg doses ; then using it as a circadian regulator, this is a good resource https://lorienpsych.com/2020/12/20/melatonin/ https://lorienpsych.com/2020/12/20/melatonin/, search for "TO TREAT" in the page. - app timers, for me it was mostly no twitter and no youtube, or a very low time for each. - light, ie reduc light before sleeping. Not just blue light and not just screens, if I'm on my phone in bed I'll reduce the luminosity a lot, same with computer, same with e-reader. I also try to avoid using too much the lights in my room. More light tend to make me feel more "wired" and less ready to sleep. - "meditation" to cut rumination, by which I mean "lay down in my bed, gently try to find sensations in the body and to stay focused on them, by gently I mean it's a very low stakes game where the goal is to find sensations in the body and give them attention, but losing focus for a while is not a big deal". - shower in the evening, as I don't like feeling dirty when I am in my bed, but also not just before bed as sometimes I don't really want to go take a shower and this delays my bedtime - clean bedsheets, bedroom, stuff in/on your bed - AC in the summer, I wouldn't be able to sleep properly without it - sleeping mask. It helps going to sleep, but it falls of my head every night so it doesn't prevent waking up with light too. - making getting good sleep the priority of the evening. This is easy/possible for me due to my circumstances (ie low responsibilities in the evening). The way I do it is that unless something is actually important, what I'm trying to accomplish in the evening is prepare myself for sleep and get good sleep. This can look like not starting a movie at 11pm, not booting up games, not eating a super heavy meal, not drinking too much water after 6pm to avoid waking up to pee, if I have things I want to do try to do them early so they're done earlier, move some stuff I want to do every day like spaced repetition in the morning.
    - Schiendelman 3mo ago
      "If I'm on my phone in bed" is throwing out a major, proven impactful piece of conventional wisdom.
      - Zababa 3mo ago
        Yeah, in an ideal world where I'm the ideal me I wouldn't use my phone in my bed, but I haven't found a way to stop doing that which I can stick with, so I try to limit the damage. Part of what I wanted to say is, there is conventional wisdom, then there is how you actually put that wisdom in practice in a way you stick with. I've struggled a lot with the implementation, but sometimes by throwing lots of stuff at the wall I find something that brings me halfway there. It's not the "golden way" but it leaves me in a better place than before, with a bit better sleep, a bit more self knowledge, and a small victory.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        That totally makes sense. Also, thanks for sharing your list! I'll see if I can try anything on it. :)
  - D13Fd 3mo ago
    Did you cut out all caffeine?
    - Retr0id 3mo ago
      > conventional wisdom doesn't seem to stick
      - derektank 3mo ago
        I wouldn’t say cutting out all caffeine is conventional wisdom. Every sleep specialist (sample size of 3) I have spoken to has basically said, while they don't recommend caffeine, if you only drink it early in the day it’s probably fine.
      - D13Fd 3mo ago
        I’m asking a question to determine his view of “conventional wisdom,” which could be all kinds of things. Why would you assume that his view of “conventional wisdom” necessarily includes cutting all caffeine?
        deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
        acron0 3mo ago
        I think the question is fair. I don't tend to drink caffeine after about 5pm so had kinda written this off as a potential.
        D13Fd 3mo ago
        [dead]
  - clouedoc 3mo ago
    Let's create a Discord/Signal/WhatsApp/mailing list group to help each other figure it out... it's time to end our sleep irregularity once and for all!
    - willhay 3mo ago
      Would you actually be up for trying a one-week version of this? I'm building something rn that would let us run this in iMessage super easily!
  - ostwilkens 3mo ago
    The only thing that worked for me was having a kid. He wakes up early every day, so I have no choice. Taking care of him is so taxing, being sleep deprived isn't on the table.
    - n4r9 3mo ago
      What's more, you have little difficulty falling asleep any time, any place!
  - martingoodson 3mo ago
    Don't watch any kind of screen in the evening. Read a book instead. You'll fall asleep sooner.
    - n4r9 3mo ago
      Isn't that "conventional wisdom"?
    - soco 3mo ago
      I do watch screens in the morning, but reading in bed (though still a screen, Kindle) still knocks me off in max 15 minutes. I would love to know why... I only know it works.
      - dkga 3mo ago
        Could be related to the light spectrum. Kindles aren't really "screen" like the others; they do have background light but you can turn it off and use it with its paper-like screen (which is what I do and really like it). But traditional screens have blue light as part of the normal light they emit, which is known to disrupt sleeping patterns. When I am using my cell phone or computer right before sleeping, I usually turn on colour filtering to make my whole cell phone be tinted red. This helps wonders. I found this page that explains how this can be done: [0]. [0]: https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/keep-your-night-vision-sharp-with-iphones-hidden-red-screen-0173903/ https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/keep-your-night-vision-sh...
    - ptsneves 3mo ago
      With this [0] I find i read 2 pages and I fall asleep consistently and really with a will to sleep. My mind wanders into far away lands and empires and says, "I take it from here". [0] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0691134952 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0691134952
  - estearum 3mo ago
    Lifelong severe insomniac (sleep onset mostly) and cured myself pretty much entirely over the last year or so. My suggestions in order of what I perceived to be their cost vs effectiveness ratio: 1. The Sleep With Me podcast, especially if you struggle with racing thoughts (if you have a partner who can't stand hearing this, the Ozlo Sleepbuds are a good if imperfect solution) 2. Stellar Sleep, an app that delivers CBT-I, evidence-backed cognitive therapy for insomnia; this reset my sleep clock in about two months, which is now maintained by the other items on this list 3. Eight Sleep mattress pad to keep temperature low during sleep, especially on warmer nights 4. Manta Sleep Mask to get full light blackout Also I've definitely just doxxed myself. But worth it to help some fellow insomniacs!
    - shykes 2mo ago
      Thank you!
  - ozgrakkurt 3mo ago
    Conventional wisdom does work for me but it is immensely difficult. I would say take the advice seriously but don't take the timeframe or problem difficulty assesment coming from other people. It is only natural that it takes months to years to fix a problem if you had the problem for years.
  - kakacik 3mo ago
    Exercise, often, not too hard, over short time you'll get your personal level better than any coach could do. It will also prolong your life easily by 10 years and add tons of quality into it, will make you happier and more connected to your own body. All people I know also corrected their eating habits aggressively, its all connected. If you dont have enough time get to the point when you can do HIIT safely, its literally 15-20 min max. If you have time, add long walks on rest days for example, or whatever is available to you nearby (ie swimming/surf if usable water body nearby).
  - acron0 3mo ago
    My follow-up: I'm grateful for the advice from commenters. I perhaps should have specified that my issue isn't insomnia, it's sleep procrastination, which gets a lot less sympathy.
- csomar 3mo ago
  Are you? Would be happy to die by 65-70 instead of struggling through 80s…
  - suddenlybananas 3mo ago
    Easy to say when you're not 65-70.
  - al_borland 3mo ago
    No one knows for sure how they will be in their old age. My grandmother didn’t seem to struggle until her mid to late 90s. That’s a lot of years to leave on the table. Years that allowed her to meet and enjoy time with her children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. Had she died at 65, I wouldn’t have even known her. Instead she was around for my entire childhood and well into adulthood.
  - pferde 3mo ago
    I'd rather live through my 80s without much struggling. Longevity and quality of life until the end. And I try to live in the way that lends itself towards that.
  - annzabelle 3mo ago
    There are really different kinds of 65-70. My parents are both 70 and very active. I often meet 65 year olds who are frail and slow with chronic pain and diabetes, when my dad is going on 50 mile bike rides a few times a week. I would hate to develop a significant health condition at 55 and be seriously ill by 60. I would much rather be healthy until my late 70s.
  - nazgul17 3mo ago
    From what I understand, whether you will struggle depends a lot on whether you eat well, sleep well, drink, smoke, and exercise. My dad played futsal until the end (~70 yo, car accident, be was perfectly healthy otherwise); I met one of his classmates from school, he looked 20 years older, no exaggeration. My dad looked like he was barely 50. Note: how old someone looks is very biased by their "generation", as people tend to drink and smoke less these days.
- TacticalCoder 3mo ago
  If it's of any help to you: if TFA is true, I should be dead already. I've got the absolute most fucked up sleep schedule. Thankfully I've got a lovely wife who accepted it (to be honest as it's been like that since I was 20 y/o, she knew...). To me burning the midnight oil is my way of life. In a past life, two decades plus ago, I used to write books: I'd write at night, when all is quiet. I'd go buy two or three warm "croissant" at 6:30am when the shop would open, then I'd go to bed. And I love the hours later at night that then becomes early in the morning to get work done. Because I'm such a night owl (not to party nor drink at all), I've got a different view on, for example, city life. Or rural area life. Things are different in the middle of the night. Last night I had something that needed solving: went to bed at 8am. My wife shall never ever take an appointment for me in the morning. If it's of any comfort to you, I'm still fit and made it to 53 y/o so far and my doctor laughs at me when I go see him, saying I'm totally fine. Anyhow seeing the old wreck my fater is at 78 y/o, I kinda came to peace with the notion that it's okay'ish if I don't make it that far. Those with fucked up sleep schedules: you're not alone. P.S: if I wasn't such a night owl, I'd never have met my wife... Long story but the butterfly effect: 25 years ago, coming back from my editor (who was also a night own) at something like 3am I decided to stop at a club knew but to which I'd never been, for there was some forms of life still awake too. There I met a girl, which became my girlfriend for a while. I kept in touch with her and through her I met a friend: a crazy dude. And through that crazy dude I met my wife. So had I not decided to stop at 3am at that club, I'd never have met my wife. So there's that.
- marknutter 3mo ago
  Try Trazadone. I've struggled with sleep my whole life and now, after 45 years, I can finally say I have the problem thoroughly licked.
elcritch 3mo ago
Well that sucks, given I have a gene variant related to delayed sleep according to 23andme. Last year I did an experiment of sorts while unemployed for a time and found that if I just slept and woke when tired that my sleep time would naturally recess and eventually "flip" after about a month. My entire life I've wondered why I feel incredibly tired and found waking up so difficult. Turns out that if you follow your bodies dominant sleep cycle it's a synch to wake up. Unfortunately, it doesn't work with modern life very well.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 3mo ago
  I've found my sleep regularity to be pretty malleable. It can become a habit. When I was in grad school I went to bed at midnight and woke up at 7am. Once I started running more in the mornings, I gradually shifted to going to sleep at 9pm and waking up at 5am. The first couple days or week will feel pretty bad, but if you give yourself enough time then you'll shift your sleep schedule around. Now I get tired at 8:30pm and fall asleep at 9ish like clockwork. grad school me would have considered that insane considering I'm doing less work on average during the day. My day is just shifted now so that I do more stuff in the mornings and really relax in the afternoons, which is the opposite of before. A key is actually giving yourself enough time to fall asleep. Most people think they can hop into bed and just get 8hrs, when you actually need to hop into bed around 30mins beforehand and really relax with a book or something. I also think it's important to not stress about sleep a lot. Unless you're literally feeling miserable or have apnea, I think it's better to just let yourself relax if you wake up in the middle of the night. Sometimes I'll snap awake at 2am and just read for 2hrs, then get 2 more hours of sleep and generally feel fine.
  - malfist 3mo ago
    People are different. What you find easy and trainable, someone else will find it doesn't require training and someone else will try as hard as they can and won't succeed.
  - annzabelle 3mo ago
    The only way I really made an early wake up work was wearing amber safety glasses to block blue light for an hour or two before bed every night. I will note that if you feel absolutely terrible on 8-9 hours of sleep, you should check with a doctor about it. I have hypothyroidism and was on too low a dose of medication, and felt so tired after work that I almost drove on the wrong side of the road. I'd thought this was simply from moving my sleep schedule and getting less sleep after starting a new job, but I got a blood test for unrelated reasons and found I was hypothyroid. A couple weeks after starting the new dose of medication and I feel like a new person.
ssgodderidge 3mo ago
Couldn’t this effect be classic cause vs correlation? Perhaps someone who has a consistent schedule is hypothetically more likely to make healthier choices on average?
- xrisk 3mo ago
  tfa: "Results were adjusted for age, sex, ethnicity, and sociodemographic, lifestyle, and health factors"
  - bitmasher9 3mo ago
    Sometimes it is a cause vs causation. Sometimes the scientist didn’t adjust for a variable that clearly would impact both fields they were measuring. To make such a claim, I think it’s appropriate to name that hypothetical third variable. Otherwise the comment is so general it applies to all statistical studies.
    - sigbottle 3mo ago
      But you can just apply this to anything. I feel unlike unless you're an insider with skin in the game, your criticism doesn't land other than a generic surface one. To be clear, I apply an equal deep skepticism to most fields that aren't math (in the sense of a priority) or physics (in the sense that you aren't trying to study the entire world, but a specific set of phenomena that you can reliably control enough + repeat to run intervention on), whether the results agree with me or not. Maybe a bit of intellectual closed-mindedness. But then that means that me, personally, I can't in good faith use the criticism as a proper 'debunk' argument - at best it's a heuristic to avoid spending cycles to evaluate it (which is 'rational' behavior, as much as I hate that word, IMO).
      - cbg0 3mo ago
        People love nitpicking about scientific articles, it kind of exploded with the pandemic. Especially when the conclusions of the paper don't align with the expectations of the reader. The way I see these is "these persons invested a lot of time putting this together and all I have to counter it are personal vibes", so unless my LLM of choice can find plenty of conflicting papers, I tend to assume it's reasonably valid work.
djoldman 3mo ago
As always with a lot of these: it's not saying causation. You might measure the speed of your car by putting your hand out of the window and notice that the wind force on your hand is strong when the car goes fast. Putting your hand out of the window and then blocking the wind with a book doesn't make the car slow down. Keyword: "associated" EDIT: I meant to communicate that it doesn't make the car slow down as much as your hand behind and blocked by the book (feeling almost no wind), would imply.
- philipov 3mo ago
  Maybe you can't stop the car that way, but if you feel that kind of wind on your hand you should worry that your car is going fast.
  - djoldman 3mo ago
    > ... you should worry that your car is going fast. Only if we know of an intervention that will likely slow the car down and the risks+cost of that intervention justify the benefit. Otherwise, we worry without purpose. EDIT: I will say that there is a philosophical question here related to "basic research" / "pure science" / "fundamental science." Usually just "knowing new things" eventually proves valuable, especially in a long timeline. So in that sense, TFA could be important.
- estearum 3mo ago
  Bad example because yes it does make the car slow down.
  - hobofan 3mo ago
    I think the point is that while it does act as negative acceleration there isn't a causal relationship with the actual speed of the car, which is mainly related to how far the gas pedal is pressed.
    - aeonik 3mo ago
      Drag is a causitive input to speed though. nextCarSpeed(currentSpeed, wheelPower, dragForce, mass, deltaTime) = currentSpeed + ((wheelPower / currentSpeed - dragForce) / mass) * deltaTime Increase "dragForce", and the resulting car speed decreases. That is a causal input, not an association.
A1kmm 3mo ago
I wonder how much of this is driven by confounding variables they haven't accounted for. They do factor in shift work as a categorical variable, and employment status as a categorical variable not taking into account occupation. But probably occupation (not a variable here) interacts with sleep status. Any job that involves a lot of flying (pilot, crew, people travelling for business) get more cosmic radiation exposure, for example, and potentially more sleep disruption. Certain operations and manufacturing jobs correlated with exposure to carcinogens also likely correlate with less regular sleep, possibly in a way that isn't corrected for by the limited shift work categories.
- mohsen1 3mo ago
  I thought the same. If your life is so in order that you routinely sleep on the same interval, perhaps your life is not as stressful as others who sleep more chaotically
- saidnooneever 3mo ago
  usually these studies are done across a very narrow sample of Earth's population. often from similar region or country etc. Which dont get me wrong, is a lot of stuff to process for such a study, but the number is statistically insignificant. many more similar studies would need to show identical results. this one selected about 100k people from a dataset of around 500k. All from one country/region (UK) furthermore they dont measure sleep but they estimate if someone was maybe asleep based data from an accelerometer. so they cannot measure what sleep state someone acheived or if they were actually really sleep or just u know staring at the ceiling in an existential crisis....
  - swiftcoder 3mo ago
    > the number is statistically insignificant ... they dont measure sleep but they estimate if someone was maybe asleep based data from an accelerometer These two goals are kind of at odds with one another. We can only get insight into depth of sleep achieved if we bring you into a sleep clinic, but we can't do that for a significant sample size...
- 3mo ago
ck2 3mo ago
because of how we evolved biologically, there are some processes, particularly in the brain and not just the body, that can only happen during sleep like "garbage collection" ie. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4651462/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4651462/
bdcravens 3mo ago
As my diabetes has progressed, I find myself sleeping more odd hours (it can be hard to fight off the tiredness that comes after a meal), and I can be frequently woken up my extreme lows where my body is screaming for carbs.
markus_zhang 3mo ago
I kinda realize that the most important factor for personal success (whatever kind of success you want) is mental stability. Like, John Carmack said that he NEVER burned out, never went into a dark corner (verbatim from his interview), and everyone agrees that he works like a machine. And I don't think he actually spent a lot of mental training to achieve that stability, because, he has been like that from a young age. This is THE best thing you can have in the world, if you want to achieve something, anything. If you don't have the mental toughness, you won't be able to make through that 10,000 hours (cliche, I know). I guess that's also why many self-help book talk about being consistent -- to be consistent, is to have mental stability. And I think there is a whole difference, between someone who trains his mental to stay stable for 6 months, then collapse, from someone who actually doesn't need to train and just be stable somehow. This also leads me to realize that good sleep is one of the fundamentals of a stable mind. As a parent, I actually don't remember when was the last time I had a good sleep, and my definition of a night of good sleep is perhaps just trivial for someone else. At the same time, I consider myself lucky, because at least I don't suffer from serious mental issues. I still have a job and a house, and that's better than many out there. This then leads me to despise the human body. It is a machine so delicate that you have to be very lucky to be super productive, whatever your definition of being productive is. It seems to ignore the input in short term (e.g. you can eat garbage food for a month and nothing really happens, or, you can sleep 4-6 hours every day for the last 6 years and still function normally), but once the long term shows up it is very hard to reverse. And there are so many theories focused on it that we have no idea which one is best for the individual. You might as well spend years doing A/B test on yourself and still have no idea what the hell is going on. Or you need to be super rich to have some medical team monitor you 7/24 to figure out what the hell is going on.
- nickjj 3mo ago
  Carmack always seemed to have a really strong idea on what was important for him to work on. How much of that is mental toughness vs having a believable purpose? Believable is important because you have to internally 100% without a doubt believe that what you're doing is the right thing to be doing now. As soon as the "what ifs" starts to creep in for the big picture items or goals, that can destroy everything. I'm not talking about running into technical implementation problems along the way (those can be fun), it's more like "did I pick the right language for this?" level of questions that sit in the back of your mind. Personally when I find something to work on that I like and will have what I think is a favorable outcome, it's easy to put in 8-10 real 100% laser focused hours into a task every day, even if it spans weeks or months. I'd like to think most people can do this too, the hard part (for me at least) is having these things to work on.
el1s7 3mo ago
Interesting, though it seems quite annoying to read research papers with all that jargon without using an LLM
- sigmoid10 3mo ago
  Research papers are written to be read by other researchers, not laypeople. If you have no scientific background and want to read up on a topic that you are not familiar with, you'll have to find other sources of information.
  - el1s7 3mo ago
    Sure, by "other researchers" you mean other people who learned jargon terminology. And why would someone need to have a scientific background to read about sleep regularity and how it affects mortality?
    - sigmoid10 3mo ago
      Would you expect to be able to read a string theory research paper too just because the topic sounds interesting to you? And to be clear: You don't need a scientific background to read about sleep regularity and how it affects mortality. I'm sure there are more than enough popsci articles that will pick this up. You only need it if you want to understand the original research papers. Because unlike popular science magazines (which have journalists writing for laypeople), research papers are written by scientists for other scientists.
SkyPuncher 3mo ago
This makes sense to me as a correlation. Mental health disorders alone seem like they’d contribute significantly. ADHD, for example, is correlated with both sleep cycle issues and worse outcomes in life (including higher rates of crime and participation in risky activities).
- mordae 3mo ago
  Sleep apnea symptoms are initially similar to ADHD. Apparently a ton of kids gets mis-diagnosed with ADHD while they are slowly suffocating because they have UARS. Stimulants mask it.
Jamesmygov146 3mo ago
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pullrun 3mo ago
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bkazez 3mo ago
Having just spent a few months reading circadian entrainment papers for a circadian rhythm app I just finished,[1] I wonder if this effect might be about circadian amplitude[2] (rather than phase, which has gotten more attention). [1] https://www.impulsearc.com/wavelength/ https://www.impulsearc.com/wavelength/ [2] e.g. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41540-023-00300-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41540-023-00300-w
- barrenko 3mo ago
  Also just the general timezone stuff, genetics ~ I've moved from the right end of a timezone to the left end, it's been killing me.
tyiz 3mo ago
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petilon 3mo ago
Magnesium supplementation solved my sleep issues. I have seen many doctors, including sleep specialists, regarding insomnia. They all pointed to one source as the reason for the sleep issues: stress. And they all wanted to put me on prescription sleeping pills. I said no to that. Sleeping pills can cause dependence, and they often treat the symptom rather than the underlying cause. As a software developer, I am used to finding and fixing the underlying problem instead of relying on the quick fixes these doctors were offering me. After much research, I figured out what I believe was the underlying problem, and the fix for it. The underlying problem was magnesium deficiency. As a software developer, I spend much of the day doing mentally demanding work. This is the kind of stress the doctors were talking about. Stress can increase the body's demand for magnesium and may contribute to low magnesium levels. The cells in our body depend on minerals such as calcium and magnesium for normal function. In muscle and nerve cells, calcium helps switch the cell into an active state, while magnesium helps keep that activation under control and supports the return to a resting state. When you are low on magnesium, your muscles may remain tense and your nervous system may have a harder time settling down. That can contribute to muscle stiffness and difficulty sleeping. The solution, in my case, was magnesium supplements. They fixed my muscle stiffness issues and my sleep issues. A special form of magnesium called magnesium L-threonate may be especially helpful for the brain because it appears to raise brain magnesium levels more effectively than some other forms.
- jorblumesea 3mo ago
  It's funny you talk about treating the root cause, and take magnesium, instead of addressing the workplace stress factor.
  - blanched 3mo ago
    I get what you’re saying, but I think it’s fair to view it as equivalent to drinking a protein shake after a workout. You used the resources in a productive and healthy way, now you need to replenish them.
    - jorblumesea 3mo ago
sajithdilshan 3mo ago
My problem is that I'm always sleepy throughout the day and when I have to go to bed at nigh, then I feel so active and energetic, as if my body tries its best to avoid sleeping.
- cobbaut 3mo ago
  My doctor said "you have to earn your sleep". I had the same problem until: - two pieces of fruit per day - two portions of vegetables per day - half an hour of outside sunshine per day - twice per week exercise until you sweat - no sleep during the day - get out of bed every morning around the same time - no processed food!
  - Tesl 3mo ago
    Kinda funny seeing this reply side to side with the "I just took LSD" one
  - stronglikedan 3mo ago
    I wish your doctor's advice worked on me. I'm in the same boat as the person you're responding to, and I follow all this advice as well.
- pjerem 3mo ago
  I was in the same boat as you and it seems I solved it. What I did : - LSD (microdosing + a semi dose one year ago) did absolute wonders on my anxiety (which was what kept me energetic). I would then describe myself as having a general anxiety disorder and I now describe myself as chill af. It's amazing. I'm still stressed out by things but that's normal and not my default mode anymore. - Prolonged-release melatonin keeps me asleep for the whole night - Took the habit of reading in the bed. I'm so tired that most evenings, I have a really hard time to read 5-10 pages, I must fight to keep my eyes open.
  - sajithdilshan 3mo ago
    okay, I'm curious, have you build an addiction? or do you think you can keep on reducing the dose and stop using it but still have the benefits. I've read somewhere that LSD can kind of re-wire your brain
mhitza 3mo ago
I'm really pissed that I went through 6 cloudflare captcha loops with no result. I swear they're guarding this website from VPN users as if it's the fort knox.
- mlvljr 3mo ago
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mancerayder 3mo ago
What's missing is how much ability you have to sleep, rather than some sort of sometimes controllable factor like schedule. In my case, my brain wakes me up with anxiety one hour or more before the alarm rings (I never check time, I'm guessing). My room is always cold and relatively dark - not photo development dark, but not far. The cortisol spikes are what get me. I can drink or not drink, exercise or not exercise, take magnesium or not take magnesium. The brain wants to tell me at 630 or 7 all the things that can go wrong or todos, instead of letting me sleep til 8. Sometimes it's much earlier than that. I also wake up at the slightest sound or movement. It's been like this since I was a child. I'm defective, and all the bro science Youtube videos with top 10 science -based 'hacks' don't solve the problem. Know what does? Anti anxiety medication, but doctors don't prescribe benzos anymore.
- __turbobrew__ 3mo ago
  This sounds similar to me. I get cortisol spikes throughout the day and that can interfere with my sleep. Conventional recommendation is to go see a talk therapist, but I have never really bought into it. Other thing I have seen recommended is LSD/DMT which I would have tried by now if I wasn’t married, it seems like too bug of a risk that LSD/DMT will alter my psyche in such a way that ruins my marriage which is not fair to my partner. Best I have found is detaching from society, back country camping, no technology. But I don’t want to become a hermit in the woods to just be able to sleep regularly.
  - mancerayder 3mo ago
    Mushrooms are not quite the same, but give you more intensity control (and are much shorter duration). And legally there is ketamine therapy. I'm not sure if it'll completely remove the cortisol issues I have. This feels biological, maybe due to early traumas. Are psychedelics supposed to fix these? I thought it was more for depression than always-on vigilance. Removing all real dangerous stressors (like work and house woes) would really help. I tend to be a lot more tolerant of less sleep while on vacation. That said, I spend a lot of money and time finding quieter hotel rooms or airbnbs.
deleted 3mo ago
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ChrisArchitect 3mo ago
(2023) Some more discussion then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42022151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42022151
small_model 3mo ago
I do bi/tri phase sleep, 6 hours at night, and 1-2 naps a day (I work remotely so allows me to nap when I want) This is the best, sleep when you need to you body knows best. Do you think our ancestors slept exactly 8 hours a night from 10pm to 6am? No they slept when they wanted.
- stingraycharles 3mo ago
  There’s plenty of evidence that people used to sleep very early, and have a period of activity in the night, before having a second period of sleep. I follow the same schedule as you do, and also work remotely, and usually take a single 1-2h nap somewhere between 12pm - 3pm. It makes me have two moments of “morning productivity”, which works very well for me. In the end, listen to your body.
- quietbritishjim 3mo ago
  > Do you think our ancestors slept exactly 8 hours a night from 10pm to 6am? Yeah I pretty much do expect that (but more like 6 or 7). They were awake a few hours after sunset by fire light, then get up fairly early. I certainly don't imagine them napping during the day, when they could be working together to get food, unless it's a climate where it's too hot to do anything in the middle of the day. Studies of modern hunter gatherers seem to back this up e.g. [1] It's widely known that Victorians would have two sleeps over night, with a productive period in the middle, but this seems to be a misconception based on a passing remark in one court case. Even if true, this is a post-industrial society with unhealthily long working hours and I don't think we should be copying their sleep patterns. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982215012403 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221...
  - thesuitonym 3mo ago
    Nearly all predators spend large portions of their day sleeping, why would humans have been different?
    - zeroonetwothree 3mo ago
plutomeetsyou 3mo ago
> Adjusted R2 values for each model were 0.085 (linear), 0.118 (quadratic), and 0.125 (cubic) I get the study design is not causal and all, but this R^2 looks very underfit for a study that claims a stronger predictor?
AbstractH24 3mo ago
I have epilpsy, with an implanted device that both acts like a pacemaker and records my brainwaves. Basically my doctor's biggest concern right now is making sure I don't die in my sleep because of something the device records that I and my wife never even know happened. Its a point of debate right now how much to disrupt my life with side-effects to do that.
irenaeus 3mo ago
I read the abstract, pretty interesting. I did a word search for "wake" looking for if they talked at all about early waking times being correlated with overall regularity, as that has been my personal experience. Unfortunately they didn't talk about it, or if they did I couldn't find it.
- raddan 3mo ago
  I am also curious about this. The best sleep I ever had was when I was teaching an early morning class. Part of my morning routine is a short run, so this meant I was regularly waking up at 5am. I fell asleep regularly at 9pm when I was on this schedule. I use a sleep band [1] to track sleep, and it was the only time when I've been able to consistently get "high scores" on it. [1] https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/1650098/ https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/1650098/
  - irenaeus 3mo ago
    It's strange to me that adolescents are (or seem to be) wired to want to wake late and sleep late, since waking early and sleeping early is a predictor of a predictor of lower all cause mortality!
kilroy123 3mo ago
The only thing that has worked for me to keep my sleep regular is to go outside first thing in the morning and sit for 15-20 minutes. Rain or shine. Even if it's cold or cloudy. This has been game changing and keeps me on a regular sleep routine.
- lanfeust6 3mo ago
  Seconding that the time you get up, and light exposure then and during the day, has a massive impact. If you habitually sleep in late, then "going to bed early" does not work as you'll lack sleep pressure. It's putting the cart before the horse. You have to treat it the same way we do jet lag; when we travel to the other side of the world, we adjust by just gritting through the morning. Takes few days to shift.
todotask2 3mo ago
A good night's sleep is no longer an option for me. My area is experiencing widespread, constant ground vibrations throughout the day and night. It feels as if your whole body is vibrating. No supplement can help with that, and there's nothing the local authorities can do until the major construction projects are completed over the next few years.
- mannanj 3mo ago
  I'm so sorry. This sounds horrible. Have you local elected officials or the contractors been made aware of this and are willing to do anything about it? Even help sound proof windows, outdoor areas, etc. I think this kind of behavior by the groups causing this impact on you is irresponsible and harmful, even if it's not known. If they know I think they are being unethical - I think its fair if they suffer harm and damage as a result such as in court or you similarly start to coordinate a group of people that can make their jobs harder as well through legal means of course. Maybe ya'll stand outside their work and speak with megaphones for as long as possible, or just stream a speaker blasting audio towards them as they work.
- nextaccountic 3mo ago
  I wonder if having springs in the bed legs would help to damp vibrations. Or.. something like that https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/42284/vibration-damping-a-bed-from-mechanical-vibrations https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/42284/vibrat... https://www.bolonhome.com/news/bed-frame-vibration-control-design/ https://www.bolonhome.com/news/bed-frame-vibration-control-d... I remember a Youtube video about a story of a skyscrapper that added something to damp vibrations so that it would be more comfortable due to high winds or something like that. If it's feasible to damp vibrations on a whole building, you can do it on a smaller scale as well
nottorp 3mo ago
I wonder how many of these "surprising" results are markers of other life style decisions. Regular sleeping hours as a marker for a less stressful life? Also ran across this: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5105607/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5105607/ I doubt it's the actual reading. Maybe having a calmer life where you take the time to relax with a book.
- Insanity 3mo ago
  Also, reading lowers stress. Which in turn improves sleep an overall mental / physical health. I always read before going to bed for at least 30 minutes, and anecdotally I have a much easier time to fall asleep that way.
  - nottorp 3mo ago
    > I have a much easier time to fall asleep that way Unless the book is really good :)
    - Insanity 3mo ago
      True indeed, I definitely missed some sleep because of books.
mannanj 3mo ago
Without blue light or loud noises there are no sleep issues. You just fall into rhythm with the sun and rise and sleep more or less by the seasons. No industry coaching, science or reliance on an expert needed - *except the sun.
timbaboon 3mo ago
Largest medical insurance company (Discovery Health) in South Africa has just launched a sleep rewards program as part of their wellness program (Vitality). The idea is that you get rewarded for getting good sleeping scores... which is not entirely in your control, but anyway. Their model is built by looking at years of sleep data combined with health insurance claims. They place a large emphasis on sleep regularity. Anyway, just interesting to see this study come up and it seems to match up sort of with the Vitality stuff. There will ofc be many confounding variables though...
- paulryanrogers 3mo ago
  It would suck to pay more based on bad or poorly understood data. Especially since I doubt they'll willingly give refunds if their foundational data is proven to be problematic.
  - timbaboon 3mo ago
    Oh for sure. It's a carrot-type program though. So you don't get any penalties for not doing something, but you get rewards for doing things.
    - myroon5 3mo ago
      Discounting from higher default prices rather than penalizing from lower default prices is more of a branding difference than an economic difference: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47952034 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47952034
      - timbaboon 3mo ago
        Yeah but in South Africa medical aid rates are regulated by the government and all companies have to stick with that rate. The idea is that if you keep your customers healthy then there are fewer claims.
adamsmark 3mo ago
Something that has worked surprisingly well for me is journaling via voice recording on my phone. It's been so effective that I've mapped it to my phone's physical shortcut button. I have struggled with on-and-off sleep issues for a while, and I'll admit I don't always follow perfect sleep hygiene. But there is something about dumping my thoughts out loud that completely shuts down the repetitive, circular thinking that usually keeps me awake.
- LinuxAmbulance 3mo ago
  Is there a particular structure to it, or just whatever is at the top of your mind?
djeiekei 3mo ago
[dead]
redanddead 3mo ago
Just my 2c Bryan Johnson says you should base your life around your sleep. He’s totally right … but he won’t get young men to sleep in at 8pm New sleep meds are creating a new lever here and serve a real empowering function in a way that culture hasn’t caught up to yet When we think of traditional sleep meds we think of sedatives and it has an identity connotation to it. The new meds coming out, not just in sleep either, are changing a lot of things. I’m talking about designer drugs, new pathways, multiple agonists etc etc. By total accident a month ago, I was prescribed a medication for sleep, lemborexant (not into trade names for drugs, more power to generics) I didn’t plan on ever getting a sleep med. I don’t see myself as a sleep med guy lol. I didn’t walk into a clinic thinking I’d ever want one either. But to me this feels like a peptide or an athletic recovery supplement. And I think there’s even better and newer out there Having this lever has personally helped me a lot. Why? Because it’s very easy to let sleep quality slip over time. Here are a few questions I wished someone had asked me a year or two ago: -Have you been dreaming? When’s the last time you had a vivid dream? If you can’t even recall that, it’s a big red flag. If you haven’t been dreaming, your sleep quality could be junk -Erections during sleep? Just something to take note of -Waking up tired or ready for the day? -How long does it take you to fall asleep? There’s a key distinction there between how long you’re in bed vs. how long you’re actually sleeping. Check your apple health data. It’s so easy to mess this up, in this modern age especially, it’s why I’m hooked. There are far too many variables that could affect a key function of your life, especially for young guys. An afterparty, a hookup, a stressful period in business, a productive all-nighter, or just overthinking instead of sleeping People notice when you don’t sleep well
- deinonychus 3mo ago
  >… but he won’t get young men to sleep in at 8pm i've never had a problem with staying or even falling asleep, instead my issue is *wanting* to go to bed and getting myself there. adhd, executive dysfunctoning/akrasia, screens, chores i procrastinated all evening, etc, all give me too many things to do at night instead of tucking myself into bed. i basically don't feel tired at all until i lay down. i don't notice i'm mentally wiped until i start bottomfragging in a video game at 2 am. i've taken melatonin (and magnesium) for a long time, but only in the past few months i started taking it like 3 hours before bed, after reading scott alexander's psychiatry website, instead of right beforehand. i also happen to have been recently RXd a drug called guanfacine which dampens sympathetic activity (think fight-or-flight) and when i take it with the above pills, i finally *feel* tired at 10 pm. my body is heavy and slow and my brain starts craving being turned off. it's remarkable. there's something about *feeling* tired that is humbling and makes me feel human. weird! BJ et all aren't joking when they say the biggest performance enhancer is sleep and especially regularity. i would rather sleep 6 hours and wake up at my normal time, than slide my schedule around and hit 8 and sleep in. but when i hit 8 on my usual schedule it's like i have superpowers. i don't make gains at the gym unless i sleep well. and it's such a funny thing to say out loud, but i don't need coffee when i'm rested. when i'm rested and take a coffee, it feels like i just drank 3 coffees and i'm ODing on top of my natural alertness.
cortic 3mo ago
Sleep is a predictor of poverty and poverty is a predictor of mortality. But i suspect if you hop over the second part there will be more funding in telling poor people to sleep there way to longevity.
- fittingopposite 3mo ago
  > Sleep is a predictor of poverty Curious. Any sources for this. How does this work? Feel like many high paying, stressful jobs are actually bad for your sleep.
  - cortic 3mo ago
    plenty of studies into this; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1389945717302551 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13899... https://futurecarecapital.org.uk/latest/deprivation-linked-to-poorer-quality-sleep/ https://futurecarecapital.org.uk/latest/deprivation-linked-t... https://www.nature.com/nature-index/topics/l4/socioeconomic-influences-on-sleep-health https://www.nature.com/nature-index/topics/l4/socioeconomic-...
keeda 3mo ago
Somewhat related, I once met the author of a book about sleep [1] and asked about my specific case. At that time I was splitting half my time across two continents 10 time zones apart but working largely in the same timezone, about 2 - 3 months at a time. That is, every 2 - 3 months I switched from a 1st shift sleep schedule to a "2.5th shift" one. So I asked him how bad that was for my health. He said that as long as people are mostly regular in their sleep hours, the actual timings don't matter much. However, extended periods of irregular sleep schedules are actually (his words) "classified as a type of carcinogen." I briefly looked into the evidence at the time but did not find it very concerning. TFA does make a more compelling case by linking it to all-cause mortality. [1] I believe it was The Sleep Solution by M. Chris Winter, though I may be wrong. I can only remember it had a blue cover, but turns out pretty much ALL books about sleep have a blue cover. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
codedokode 3mo ago
Could it be that irregular sleeping is caused by inner clock being off due to genetic errors, and genetic errors are the main cause of mortality? I.e. irregular sleep is not the cause but the indicator? Or irregular sleep corresponds to bad habits like drinking and using drugs and they are the cause of mortality? Or, could it be that problems with sleep are caused by using alarm clocks, i.e. not waking up naturally but forcefully at unnatural time? Waking up at the same time every day benefits people whose inner clock has 24h period and disadvantage people with clock tuned to 23h or 25h day. Or I am wrong?
tsoukase 3mo ago
Studies that reach HN and other pop places usually have a lot in common: they link a widespread, modifiable and 'catchy' factor (like sleep, sugar/meat etc consumption, human relations) with a single sensational end point (death), and involve 5/6-figures number of participants. Another common one is a huge confounding spill that makes them useless for practical decisions but valuable for further, more rigorous research design.
- hart_russell 3mo ago
  I think in this instance, it wouldn’t be shocking that irregular sleep would increase all cause mortality.
  - tsoukase 3mo ago
    Another common property of such studies is that their result is mildly surprising. Not much so that it will be scrutinised and questioned and not indifferent because no one will care about them. So, you receive your expectation.
pedalpete 3mo ago
We wrote about the "why" on our blog a few months ago [1], but the short version Sleep is a complex interplay of multiple systems within the body. A consistent/regular schedule means the brain/body is not guessing what you are asking of it. It knows when to reduce cortisol, drop body temperature, etc. etc. A simple example: When you force yourself to stay awake longer, your body attempts to compensate by increasing cortisol, then when you try to go to bed later, it can't just switch off the cortisol. It needs to clear it in your system. Then the next domino falls of when does your brain/body expect you to wake up? What are you asking of it? [1]https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-doesnt-depend https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-...
confidantlake 3mo ago
Opened this thread expecting to see a bunch of anecedotal sleep tips. Did not disappoint.
humanfromearth9 3mo ago
So if I regularly sleep at different hours, is it OK?
iamthejuan 3mo ago
I solved my sleeping patterns by sleeping very early at around 7 p.m. or 8 p.m., also it feels like sleep and hunger have something in common like if you skip the hunger for a while, you won't feel hunger for a while same goes with sleeping. At least it is my own experience.

759 points by bilsbie 3mo ago

shykes 3mo ago

Well, I'm screwed...

acron0 3mo ago
My thought exactly. For people who struggle with this, and conventional wisdom doesn't seem to stick, what are we supposed to do?
- Zababa 3mo ago
  Hard to answer precisely without knowing what conventional wisdom didn't stick. The common levers I know and that worked at least a bit for me: - start by having a fixed waking time, and get sunlight or bright light quickly after waking up. Normally relatively fixed sleep time is supposed to follow. For me waking up is the easy part, transforming that into getting up and going outside is harder. Another option here is a strong (like, really strong) lamp on a timer, or letting the morning light in your bedroom (this one is usually not recommended I think, most people seem to be blackout curtains style, but for me it gave me a nice 6am waking time with good sleep last summer). - melatonin. Two main ways: using it as a kind of hypnotic, so ~30 minutes before sleep, experimenting with 0.3mg to ~2mg doses ; then using it as a circadian regulator, this is a good resource https://lorienpsych.com/2020/12/20/melatonin/ https://lorienpsych.com/2020/12/20/melatonin/, search for "TO TREAT" in the page. - app timers, for me it was mostly no twitter and no youtube, or a very low time for each. - light, ie reduc light before sleeping. Not just blue light and not just screens, if I'm on my phone in bed I'll reduce the luminosity a lot, same with computer, same with e-reader. I also try to avoid using too much the lights in my room. More light tend to make me feel more "wired" and less ready to sleep. - "meditation" to cut rumination, by which I mean "lay down in my bed, gently try to find sensations in the body and to stay focused on them, by gently I mean it's a very low stakes game where the goal is to find sensations in the body and give them attention, but losing focus for a while is not a big deal". - shower in the evening, as I don't like feeling dirty when I am in my bed, but also not just before bed as sometimes I don't really want to go take a shower and this delays my bedtime - clean bedsheets, bedroom, stuff in/on your bed - AC in the summer, I wouldn't be able to sleep properly without it - sleeping mask. It helps going to sleep, but it falls of my head every night so it doesn't prevent waking up with light too. - making getting good sleep the priority of the evening. This is easy/possible for me due to my circumstances (ie low responsibilities in the evening). The way I do it is that unless something is actually important, what I'm trying to accomplish in the evening is prepare myself for sleep and get good sleep. This can look like not starting a movie at 11pm, not booting up games, not eating a super heavy meal, not drinking too much water after 6pm to avoid waking up to pee, if I have things I want to do try to do them early so they're done earlier, move some stuff I want to do every day like spaced repetition in the morning.
  - Schiendelman 3mo ago
    "If I'm on my phone in bed" is throwing out a major, proven impactful piece of conventional wisdom.
    - Zababa 3mo ago
      Yeah, in an ideal world where I'm the ideal me I wouldn't use my phone in my bed, but I haven't found a way to stop doing that which I can stick with, so I try to limit the damage. Part of what I wanted to say is, there is conventional wisdom, then there is how you actually put that wisdom in practice in a way you stick with. I've struggled a lot with the implementation, but sometimes by throwing lots of stuff at the wall I find something that brings me halfway there. It's not the "golden way" but it leaves me in a better place than before, with a bit better sleep, a bit more self knowledge, and a small victory.
      - Schiendelman 3mo ago
        That totally makes sense. Also, thanks for sharing your list! I'll see if I can try anything on it. :)
- D13Fd 3mo ago
  Did you cut out all caffeine?
  - Retr0id 3mo ago
    > conventional wisdom doesn't seem to stick
    - derektank 3mo ago
      I wouldn’t say cutting out all caffeine is conventional wisdom. Every sleep specialist (sample size of 3) I have spoken to has basically said, while they don't recommend caffeine, if you only drink it early in the day it’s probably fine.
    - D13Fd 3mo ago
      I’m asking a question to determine his view of “conventional wisdom,” which could be all kinds of things. Why would you assume that his view of “conventional wisdom” necessarily includes cutting all caffeine?
      - deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
      - acron0 3mo ago
        I think the question is fair. I don't tend to drink caffeine after about 5pm so had kinda written this off as a potential.
        D13Fd 3mo ago
        [dead]
- clouedoc 3mo ago
  Let's create a Discord/Signal/WhatsApp/mailing list group to help each other figure it out... it's time to end our sleep irregularity once and for all!
  - willhay 3mo ago
    Would you actually be up for trying a one-week version of this? I'm building something rn that would let us run this in iMessage super easily!
- ostwilkens 3mo ago
  The only thing that worked for me was having a kid. He wakes up early every day, so I have no choice. Taking care of him is so taxing, being sleep deprived isn't on the table.
  - n4r9 3mo ago
    What's more, you have little difficulty falling asleep any time, any place!
- martingoodson 3mo ago
  Don't watch any kind of screen in the evening. Read a book instead. You'll fall asleep sooner.
  - n4r9 3mo ago
    Isn't that "conventional wisdom"?
  - soco 3mo ago
    I do watch screens in the morning, but reading in bed (though still a screen, Kindle) still knocks me off in max 15 minutes. I would love to know why... I only know it works.
    - dkga 3mo ago
      Could be related to the light spectrum. Kindles aren't really "screen" like the others; they do have background light but you can turn it off and use it with its paper-like screen (which is what I do and really like it). But traditional screens have blue light as part of the normal light they emit, which is known to disrupt sleeping patterns. When I am using my cell phone or computer right before sleeping, I usually turn on colour filtering to make my whole cell phone be tinted red. This helps wonders. I found this page that explains how this can be done: [0]. [0]: https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/keep-your-night-vision-sharp-with-iphones-hidden-red-screen-0173903/ https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/keep-your-night-vision-sh...
  - ptsneves 3mo ago
    With this [0] I find i read 2 pages and I fall asleep consistently and really with a will to sleep. My mind wanders into far away lands and empires and says, "I take it from here". [0] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0691134952 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0691134952
- estearum 3mo ago
  Lifelong severe insomniac (sleep onset mostly) and cured myself pretty much entirely over the last year or so. My suggestions in order of what I perceived to be their cost vs effectiveness ratio: 1. The Sleep With Me podcast, especially if you struggle with racing thoughts (if you have a partner who can't stand hearing this, the Ozlo Sleepbuds are a good if imperfect solution) 2. Stellar Sleep, an app that delivers CBT-I, evidence-backed cognitive therapy for insomnia; this reset my sleep clock in about two months, which is now maintained by the other items on this list 3. Eight Sleep mattress pad to keep temperature low during sleep, especially on warmer nights 4. Manta Sleep Mask to get full light blackout Also I've definitely just doxxed myself. But worth it to help some fellow insomniacs!
  - shykes 2mo ago
    Thank you!
- ozgrakkurt 3mo ago
  Conventional wisdom does work for me but it is immensely difficult. I would say take the advice seriously but don't take the timeframe or problem difficulty assesment coming from other people. It is only natural that it takes months to years to fix a problem if you had the problem for years.
- kakacik 3mo ago
  Exercise, often, not too hard, over short time you'll get your personal level better than any coach could do. It will also prolong your life easily by 10 years and add tons of quality into it, will make you happier and more connected to your own body. All people I know also corrected their eating habits aggressively, its all connected. If you dont have enough time get to the point when you can do HIIT safely, its literally 15-20 min max. If you have time, add long walks on rest days for example, or whatever is available to you nearby (ie swimming/surf if usable water body nearby).
- acron0 3mo ago
  My follow-up: I'm grateful for the advice from commenters. I perhaps should have specified that my issue isn't insomnia, it's sleep procrastination, which gets a lot less sympathy.
csomar 3mo ago
Are you? Would be happy to die by 65-70 instead of struggling through 80s…
- suddenlybananas 3mo ago
  Easy to say when you're not 65-70.
- al_borland 3mo ago
  No one knows for sure how they will be in their old age. My grandmother didn’t seem to struggle until her mid to late 90s. That’s a lot of years to leave on the table. Years that allowed her to meet and enjoy time with her children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. Had she died at 65, I wouldn’t have even known her. Instead she was around for my entire childhood and well into adulthood.
- pferde 3mo ago
  I'd rather live through my 80s without much struggling. Longevity and quality of life until the end. And I try to live in the way that lends itself towards that.
- annzabelle 3mo ago
  There are really different kinds of 65-70. My parents are both 70 and very active. I often meet 65 year olds who are frail and slow with chronic pain and diabetes, when my dad is going on 50 mile bike rides a few times a week. I would hate to develop a significant health condition at 55 and be seriously ill by 60. I would much rather be healthy until my late 70s.
- nazgul17 3mo ago
  From what I understand, whether you will struggle depends a lot on whether you eat well, sleep well, drink, smoke, and exercise. My dad played futsal until the end (~70 yo, car accident, be was perfectly healthy otherwise); I met one of his classmates from school, he looked 20 years older, no exaggeration. My dad looked like he was barely 50. Note: how old someone looks is very biased by their "generation", as people tend to drink and smoke less these days.
TacticalCoder 3mo ago
If it's of any help to you: if TFA is true, I should be dead already. I've got the absolute most fucked up sleep schedule. Thankfully I've got a lovely wife who accepted it (to be honest as it's been like that since I was 20 y/o, she knew...). To me burning the midnight oil is my way of life. In a past life, two decades plus ago, I used to write books: I'd write at night, when all is quiet. I'd go buy two or three warm "croissant" at 6:30am when the shop would open, then I'd go to bed. And I love the hours later at night that then becomes early in the morning to get work done. Because I'm such a night owl (not to party nor drink at all), I've got a different view on, for example, city life. Or rural area life. Things are different in the middle of the night. Last night I had something that needed solving: went to bed at 8am. My wife shall never ever take an appointment for me in the morning. If it's of any comfort to you, I'm still fit and made it to 53 y/o so far and my doctor laughs at me when I go see him, saying I'm totally fine. Anyhow seeing the old wreck my fater is at 78 y/o, I kinda came to peace with the notion that it's okay'ish if I don't make it that far. Those with fucked up sleep schedules: you're not alone. P.S: if I wasn't such a night owl, I'd never have met my wife... Long story but the butterfly effect: 25 years ago, coming back from my editor (who was also a night own) at something like 3am I decided to stop at a club knew but to which I'd never been, for there was some forms of life still awake too. There I met a girl, which became my girlfriend for a while. I kept in touch with her and through her I met a friend: a crazy dude. And through that crazy dude I met my wife. So had I not decided to stop at 3am at that club, I'd never have met my wife. So there's that.
marknutter 3mo ago
Try Trazadone. I've struggled with sleep my whole life and now, after 45 years, I can finally say I have the problem thoroughly licked.

elcritch 3mo ago

Well that sucks, given I have a gene variant related to delayed sleep according to 23andme. Last year I did an experiment of sorts while unemployed for a time and found that if I just slept and woke when tired that my sleep time would naturally recess and eventually "flip" after about a month. My entire life I've wondered why I feel incredibly tired and found waking up so difficult. Turns out that if you follow your bodies dominant sleep cycle it's a synch to wake up. Unfortunately, it doesn't work with modern life very well.

beezlebroxxxxxx 3mo ago
I've found my sleep regularity to be pretty malleable. It can become a habit. When I was in grad school I went to bed at midnight and woke up at 7am. Once I started running more in the mornings, I gradually shifted to going to sleep at 9pm and waking up at 5am. The first couple days or week will feel pretty bad, but if you give yourself enough time then you'll shift your sleep schedule around. Now I get tired at 8:30pm and fall asleep at 9ish like clockwork. grad school me would have considered that insane considering I'm doing less work on average during the day. My day is just shifted now so that I do more stuff in the mornings and really relax in the afternoons, which is the opposite of before. A key is actually giving yourself enough time to fall asleep. Most people think they can hop into bed and just get 8hrs, when you actually need to hop into bed around 30mins beforehand and really relax with a book or something. I also think it's important to not stress about sleep a lot. Unless you're literally feeling miserable or have apnea, I think it's better to just let yourself relax if you wake up in the middle of the night. Sometimes I'll snap awake at 2am and just read for 2hrs, then get 2 more hours of sleep and generally feel fine.
- malfist 3mo ago
  People are different. What you find easy and trainable, someone else will find it doesn't require training and someone else will try as hard as they can and won't succeed.
- annzabelle 3mo ago
  The only way I really made an early wake up work was wearing amber safety glasses to block blue light for an hour or two before bed every night. I will note that if you feel absolutely terrible on 8-9 hours of sleep, you should check with a doctor about it. I have hypothyroidism and was on too low a dose of medication, and felt so tired after work that I almost drove on the wrong side of the road. I'd thought this was simply from moving my sleep schedule and getting less sleep after starting a new job, but I got a blood test for unrelated reasons and found I was hypothyroid. A couple weeks after starting the new dose of medication and I feel like a new person.

ssgodderidge 3mo ago

Couldn’t this effect be classic cause vs correlation? Perhaps someone who has a consistent schedule is hypothetically more likely to make healthier choices on average?

xrisk 3mo ago
tfa: "Results were adjusted for age, sex, ethnicity, and sociodemographic, lifestyle, and health factors"
- bitmasher9 3mo ago
  Sometimes it is a cause vs causation. Sometimes the scientist didn’t adjust for a variable that clearly would impact both fields they were measuring. To make such a claim, I think it’s appropriate to name that hypothetical third variable. Otherwise the comment is so general it applies to all statistical studies.
  - sigbottle 3mo ago
    But you can just apply this to anything. I feel unlike unless you're an insider with skin in the game, your criticism doesn't land other than a generic surface one. To be clear, I apply an equal deep skepticism to most fields that aren't math (in the sense of a priority) or physics (in the sense that you aren't trying to study the entire world, but a specific set of phenomena that you can reliably control enough + repeat to run intervention on), whether the results agree with me or not. Maybe a bit of intellectual closed-mindedness. But then that means that me, personally, I can't in good faith use the criticism as a proper 'debunk' argument - at best it's a heuristic to avoid spending cycles to evaluate it (which is 'rational' behavior, as much as I hate that word, IMO).
    - cbg0 3mo ago
      People love nitpicking about scientific articles, it kind of exploded with the pandemic. Especially when the conclusions of the paper don't align with the expectations of the reader. The way I see these is "these persons invested a lot of time putting this together and all I have to counter it are personal vibes", so unless my LLM of choice can find plenty of conflicting papers, I tend to assume it's reasonably valid work.

djoldman 3mo ago

As always with a lot of these: it's not saying causation. You might measure the speed of your car by putting your hand out of the window and notice that the wind force on your hand is strong when the car goes fast. Putting your hand out of the window and then blocking the wind with a book doesn't make the car slow down. Keyword: "associated" EDIT: I meant to communicate that it doesn't make the car slow down as much as your hand behind and blocked by the book (feeling almost no wind), would imply.

philipov 3mo ago
Maybe you can't stop the car that way, but if you feel that kind of wind on your hand you should worry that your car is going fast.
- djoldman 3mo ago
  > ... you should worry that your car is going fast. Only if we know of an intervention that will likely slow the car down and the risks+cost of that intervention justify the benefit. Otherwise, we worry without purpose. EDIT: I will say that there is a philosophical question here related to "basic research" / "pure science" / "fundamental science." Usually just "knowing new things" eventually proves valuable, especially in a long timeline. So in that sense, TFA could be important.
estearum 3mo ago
Bad example because yes it does make the car slow down.
- hobofan 3mo ago
  I think the point is that while it does act as negative acceleration there isn't a causal relationship with the actual speed of the car, which is mainly related to how far the gas pedal is pressed.
  - aeonik 3mo ago
    Drag is a causitive input to speed though. nextCarSpeed(currentSpeed, wheelPower, dragForce, mass, deltaTime) = currentSpeed + ((wheelPower / currentSpeed - dragForce) / mass) * deltaTime Increase "dragForce", and the resulting car speed decreases. That is a causal input, not an association.

A1kmm 3mo ago

I wonder how much of this is driven by confounding variables they haven't accounted for. They do factor in shift work as a categorical variable, and employment status as a categorical variable not taking into account occupation. But probably occupation (not a variable here) interacts with sleep status. Any job that involves a lot of flying (pilot, crew, people travelling for business) get more cosmic radiation exposure, for example, and potentially more sleep disruption. Certain operations and manufacturing jobs correlated with exposure to carcinogens also likely correlate with less regular sleep, possibly in a way that isn't corrected for by the limited shift work categories.

mohsen1 3mo ago
I thought the same. If your life is so in order that you routinely sleep on the same interval, perhaps your life is not as stressful as others who sleep more chaotically
saidnooneever 3mo ago
usually these studies are done across a very narrow sample of Earth's population. often from similar region or country etc. Which dont get me wrong, is a lot of stuff to process for such a study, but the number is statistically insignificant. many more similar studies would need to show identical results. this one selected about 100k people from a dataset of around 500k. All from one country/region (UK) furthermore they dont measure sleep but they estimate if someone was maybe asleep based data from an accelerometer. so they cannot measure what sleep state someone acheived or if they were actually really sleep or just u know staring at the ceiling in an existential crisis....
- swiftcoder 3mo ago
  > the number is statistically insignificant ... they dont measure sleep but they estimate if someone was maybe asleep based data from an accelerometer These two goals are kind of at odds with one another. We can only get insight into depth of sleep achieved if we bring you into a sleep clinic, but we can't do that for a significant sample size...
3mo ago

ck2 3mo ago

because of how we evolved biologically, there are some processes, particularly in the brain and not just the body, that can only happen during sleep like "garbage collection" ie. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4651462/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4651462/

bdcravens 3mo ago

As my diabetes has progressed, I find myself sleeping more odd hours (it can be hard to fight off the tiredness that comes after a meal), and I can be frequently woken up my extreme lows where my body is screaming for carbs.

markus_zhang 3mo ago

I kinda realize that the most important factor for personal success (whatever kind of success you want) is mental stability. Like, John Carmack said that he NEVER burned out, never went into a dark corner (verbatim from his interview), and everyone agrees that he works like a machine. And I don't think he actually spent a lot of mental training to achieve that stability, because, he has been like that from a young age. This is THE best thing you can have in the world, if you want to achieve something, anything. If you don't have the mental toughness, you won't be able to make through that 10,000 hours (cliche, I know). I guess that's also why many self-help book talk about being consistent -- to be consistent, is to have mental stability. And I think there is a whole difference, between someone who trains his mental to stay stable for 6 months, then collapse, from someone who actually doesn't need to train and just be stable somehow. This also leads me to realize that good sleep is one of the fundamentals of a stable mind. As a parent, I actually don't remember when was the last time I had a good sleep, and my definition of a night of good sleep is perhaps just trivial for someone else. At the same time, I consider myself lucky, because at least I don't suffer from serious mental issues. I still have a job and a house, and that's better than many out there. This then leads me to despise the human body. It is a machine so delicate that you have to be very lucky to be super productive, whatever your definition of being productive is. It seems to ignore the input in short term (e.g. you can eat garbage food for a month and nothing really happens, or, you can sleep 4-6 hours every day for the last 6 years and still function normally), but once the long term shows up it is very hard to reverse. And there are so many theories focused on it that we have no idea which one is best for the individual. You might as well spend years doing A/B test on yourself and still have no idea what the hell is going on. Or you need to be super rich to have some medical team monitor you 7/24 to figure out what the hell is going on.

nickjj 3mo ago
Carmack always seemed to have a really strong idea on what was important for him to work on. How much of that is mental toughness vs having a believable purpose? Believable is important because you have to internally 100% without a doubt believe that what you're doing is the right thing to be doing now. As soon as the "what ifs" starts to creep in for the big picture items or goals, that can destroy everything. I'm not talking about running into technical implementation problems along the way (those can be fun), it's more like "did I pick the right language for this?" level of questions that sit in the back of your mind. Personally when I find something to work on that I like and will have what I think is a favorable outcome, it's easy to put in 8-10 real 100% laser focused hours into a task every day, even if it spans weeks or months. I'd like to think most people can do this too, the hard part (for me at least) is having these things to work on.

el1s7 3mo ago

Interesting, though it seems quite annoying to read research papers with all that jargon without using an LLM

sigmoid10 3mo ago
Research papers are written to be read by other researchers, not laypeople. If you have no scientific background and want to read up on a topic that you are not familiar with, you'll have to find other sources of information.
- el1s7 3mo ago
  Sure, by "other researchers" you mean other people who learned jargon terminology. And why would someone need to have a scientific background to read about sleep regularity and how it affects mortality?
  - sigmoid10 3mo ago
    Would you expect to be able to read a string theory research paper too just because the topic sounds interesting to you? And to be clear: You don't need a scientific background to read about sleep regularity and how it affects mortality. I'm sure there are more than enough popsci articles that will pick this up. You only need it if you want to understand the original research papers. Because unlike popular science magazines (which have journalists writing for laypeople), research papers are written by scientists for other scientists.

SkyPuncher 3mo ago

This makes sense to me as a correlation. Mental health disorders alone seem like they’d contribute significantly. ADHD, for example, is correlated with both sleep cycle issues and worse outcomes in life (including higher rates of crime and participation in risky activities).

mordae 3mo ago
Sleep apnea symptoms are initially similar to ADHD. Apparently a ton of kids gets mis-diagnosed with ADHD while they are slowly suffocating because they have UARS. Stimulants mask it.

Jamesmygov146 3mo ago

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pullrun 3mo ago

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bkazez 3mo ago

Having just spent a few months reading circadian entrainment papers for a circadian rhythm app I just finished,[1] I wonder if this effect might be about circadian amplitude[2] (rather than phase, which has gotten more attention). [1] https://www.impulsearc.com/wavelength/ https://www.impulsearc.com/wavelength/ [2] e.g. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41540-023-00300-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41540-023-00300-w

barrenko 3mo ago
Also just the general timezone stuff, genetics ~ I've moved from the right end of a timezone to the left end, it's been killing me.

tyiz 3mo ago

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petilon 3mo ago

Magnesium supplementation solved my sleep issues. I have seen many doctors, including sleep specialists, regarding insomnia. They all pointed to one source as the reason for the sleep issues: stress. And they all wanted to put me on prescription sleeping pills. I said no to that. Sleeping pills can cause dependence, and they often treat the symptom rather than the underlying cause. As a software developer, I am used to finding and fixing the underlying problem instead of relying on the quick fixes these doctors were offering me. After much research, I figured out what I believe was the underlying problem, and the fix for it. The underlying problem was magnesium deficiency. As a software developer, I spend much of the day doing mentally demanding work. This is the kind of stress the doctors were talking about. Stress can increase the body's demand for magnesium and may contribute to low magnesium levels. The cells in our body depend on minerals such as calcium and magnesium for normal function. In muscle and nerve cells, calcium helps switch the cell into an active state, while magnesium helps keep that activation under control and supports the return to a resting state. When you are low on magnesium, your muscles may remain tense and your nervous system may have a harder time settling down. That can contribute to muscle stiffness and difficulty sleeping. The solution, in my case, was magnesium supplements. They fixed my muscle stiffness issues and my sleep issues. A special form of magnesium called magnesium L-threonate may be especially helpful for the brain because it appears to raise brain magnesium levels more effectively than some other forms.

jorblumesea 3mo ago
It's funny you talk about treating the root cause, and take magnesium, instead of addressing the workplace stress factor.
- blanched 3mo ago
  I get what you’re saying, but I think it’s fair to view it as equivalent to drinking a protein shake after a workout. You used the resources in a productive and healthy way, now you need to replenish them.
  - jorblumesea 3mo ago

sajithdilshan 3mo ago

My problem is that I'm always sleepy throughout the day and when I have to go to bed at nigh, then I feel so active and energetic, as if my body tries its best to avoid sleeping.

cobbaut 3mo ago
My doctor said "you have to earn your sleep". I had the same problem until: - two pieces of fruit per day - two portions of vegetables per day - half an hour of outside sunshine per day - twice per week exercise until you sweat - no sleep during the day - get out of bed every morning around the same time - no processed food!
- Tesl 3mo ago
  Kinda funny seeing this reply side to side with the "I just took LSD" one
- stronglikedan 3mo ago
  I wish your doctor's advice worked on me. I'm in the same boat as the person you're responding to, and I follow all this advice as well.
pjerem 3mo ago
I was in the same boat as you and it seems I solved it. What I did : - LSD (microdosing + a semi dose one year ago) did absolute wonders on my anxiety (which was what kept me energetic). I would then describe myself as having a general anxiety disorder and I now describe myself as chill af. It's amazing. I'm still stressed out by things but that's normal and not my default mode anymore. - Prolonged-release melatonin keeps me asleep for the whole night - Took the habit of reading in the bed. I'm so tired that most evenings, I have a really hard time to read 5-10 pages, I must fight to keep my eyes open.
- sajithdilshan 3mo ago
  okay, I'm curious, have you build an addiction? or do you think you can keep on reducing the dose and stop using it but still have the benefits. I've read somewhere that LSD can kind of re-wire your brain

mhitza 3mo ago

I'm really pissed that I went through 6 cloudflare captcha loops with no result. I swear they're guarding this website from VPN users as if it's the fort knox.

mlvljr 3mo ago
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mancerayder 3mo ago

What's missing is how much ability you have to sleep, rather than some sort of sometimes controllable factor like schedule. In my case, my brain wakes me up with anxiety one hour or more before the alarm rings (I never check time, I'm guessing). My room is always cold and relatively dark - not photo development dark, but not far. The cortisol spikes are what get me. I can drink or not drink, exercise or not exercise, take magnesium or not take magnesium. The brain wants to tell me at 630 or 7 all the things that can go wrong or todos, instead of letting me sleep til 8. Sometimes it's much earlier than that. I also wake up at the slightest sound or movement. It's been like this since I was a child. I'm defective, and all the bro science Youtube videos with top 10 science -based 'hacks' don't solve the problem. Know what does? Anti anxiety medication, but doctors don't prescribe benzos anymore.

__turbobrew__ 3mo ago
This sounds similar to me. I get cortisol spikes throughout the day and that can interfere with my sleep. Conventional recommendation is to go see a talk therapist, but I have never really bought into it. Other thing I have seen recommended is LSD/DMT which I would have tried by now if I wasn’t married, it seems like too bug of a risk that LSD/DMT will alter my psyche in such a way that ruins my marriage which is not fair to my partner. Best I have found is detaching from society, back country camping, no technology. But I don’t want to become a hermit in the woods to just be able to sleep regularly.
- mancerayder 3mo ago
  Mushrooms are not quite the same, but give you more intensity control (and are much shorter duration). And legally there is ketamine therapy. I'm not sure if it'll completely remove the cortisol issues I have. This feels biological, maybe due to early traumas. Are psychedelics supposed to fix these? I thought it was more for depression than always-on vigilance. Removing all real dangerous stressors (like work and house woes) would really help. I tend to be a lot more tolerant of less sleep while on vacation. That said, I spend a lot of money and time finding quieter hotel rooms or airbnbs.

deleted 3mo ago

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ChrisArchitect 3mo ago

(2023) Some more discussion then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42022151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42022151

small_model 3mo ago

I do bi/tri phase sleep, 6 hours at night, and 1-2 naps a day (I work remotely so allows me to nap when I want) This is the best, sleep when you need to you body knows best. Do you think our ancestors slept exactly 8 hours a night from 10pm to 6am? No they slept when they wanted.

stingraycharles 3mo ago
There’s plenty of evidence that people used to sleep very early, and have a period of activity in the night, before having a second period of sleep. I follow the same schedule as you do, and also work remotely, and usually take a single 1-2h nap somewhere between 12pm - 3pm. It makes me have two moments of “morning productivity”, which works very well for me. In the end, listen to your body.
quietbritishjim 3mo ago
> Do you think our ancestors slept exactly 8 hours a night from 10pm to 6am? Yeah I pretty much do expect that (but more like 6 or 7). They were awake a few hours after sunset by fire light, then get up fairly early. I certainly don't imagine them napping during the day, when they could be working together to get food, unless it's a climate where it's too hot to do anything in the middle of the day. Studies of modern hunter gatherers seem to back this up e.g. [1] It's widely known that Victorians would have two sleeps over night, with a productive period in the middle, but this seems to be a misconception based on a passing remark in one court case. Even if true, this is a post-industrial society with unhealthily long working hours and I don't think we should be copying their sleep patterns. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982215012403 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221...
- thesuitonym 3mo ago
  Nearly all predators spend large portions of their day sleeping, why would humans have been different?
  - zeroonetwothree 3mo ago

plutomeetsyou 3mo ago

> Adjusted R2 values for each model were 0.085 (linear), 0.118 (quadratic), and 0.125 (cubic) I get the study design is not causal and all, but this R^2 looks very underfit for a study that claims a stronger predictor?

AbstractH24 3mo ago

I have epilpsy, with an implanted device that both acts like a pacemaker and records my brainwaves. Basically my doctor's biggest concern right now is making sure I don't die in my sleep because of something the device records that I and my wife never even know happened. Its a point of debate right now how much to disrupt my life with side-effects to do that.

irenaeus 3mo ago

I read the abstract, pretty interesting. I did a word search for "wake" looking for if they talked at all about early waking times being correlated with overall regularity, as that has been my personal experience. Unfortunately they didn't talk about it, or if they did I couldn't find it.

raddan 3mo ago
I am also curious about this. The best sleep I ever had was when I was teaching an early morning class. Part of my morning routine is a short run, so this meant I was regularly waking up at 5am. I fell asleep regularly at 9pm when I was on this schedule. I use a sleep band [1] to track sleep, and it was the only time when I've been able to consistently get "high scores" on it. [1] https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/1650098/ https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/1650098/
- irenaeus 3mo ago
  It's strange to me that adolescents are (or seem to be) wired to want to wake late and sleep late, since waking early and sleeping early is a predictor of a predictor of lower all cause mortality!

kilroy123 3mo ago

The only thing that has worked for me to keep my sleep regular is to go outside first thing in the morning and sit for 15-20 minutes. Rain or shine. Even if it's cold or cloudy. This has been game changing and keeps me on a regular sleep routine.

lanfeust6 3mo ago
Seconding that the time you get up, and light exposure then and during the day, has a massive impact. If you habitually sleep in late, then "going to bed early" does not work as you'll lack sleep pressure. It's putting the cart before the horse. You have to treat it the same way we do jet lag; when we travel to the other side of the world, we adjust by just gritting through the morning. Takes few days to shift.

todotask2 3mo ago

A good night's sleep is no longer an option for me. My area is experiencing widespread, constant ground vibrations throughout the day and night. It feels as if your whole body is vibrating. No supplement can help with that, and there's nothing the local authorities can do until the major construction projects are completed over the next few years.

mannanj 3mo ago
I'm so sorry. This sounds horrible. Have you local elected officials or the contractors been made aware of this and are willing to do anything about it? Even help sound proof windows, outdoor areas, etc. I think this kind of behavior by the groups causing this impact on you is irresponsible and harmful, even if it's not known. If they know I think they are being unethical - I think its fair if they suffer harm and damage as a result such as in court or you similarly start to coordinate a group of people that can make their jobs harder as well through legal means of course. Maybe ya'll stand outside their work and speak with megaphones for as long as possible, or just stream a speaker blasting audio towards them as they work.
nextaccountic 3mo ago
I wonder if having springs in the bed legs would help to damp vibrations. Or.. something like that https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/42284/vibration-damping-a-bed-from-mechanical-vibrations https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/42284/vibrat... https://www.bolonhome.com/news/bed-frame-vibration-control-design/ https://www.bolonhome.com/news/bed-frame-vibration-control-d... I remember a Youtube video about a story of a skyscrapper that added something to damp vibrations so that it would be more comfortable due to high winds or something like that. If it's feasible to damp vibrations on a whole building, you can do it on a smaller scale as well

nottorp 3mo ago

I wonder how many of these "surprising" results are markers of other life style decisions. Regular sleeping hours as a marker for a less stressful life? Also ran across this: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5105607/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5105607/ I doubt it's the actual reading. Maybe having a calmer life where you take the time to relax with a book.

Insanity 3mo ago
Also, reading lowers stress. Which in turn improves sleep an overall mental / physical health. I always read before going to bed for at least 30 minutes, and anecdotally I have a much easier time to fall asleep that way.
- nottorp 3mo ago
  > I have a much easier time to fall asleep that way Unless the book is really good :)
  - Insanity 3mo ago
    True indeed, I definitely missed some sleep because of books.

mannanj 3mo ago

Without blue light or loud noises there are no sleep issues. You just fall into rhythm with the sun and rise and sleep more or less by the seasons. No industry coaching, science or reliance on an expert needed - *except the sun.

timbaboon 3mo ago

Largest medical insurance company (Discovery Health) in South Africa has just launched a sleep rewards program as part of their wellness program (Vitality). The idea is that you get rewarded for getting good sleeping scores... which is not entirely in your control, but anyway. Their model is built by looking at years of sleep data combined with health insurance claims. They place a large emphasis on sleep regularity. Anyway, just interesting to see this study come up and it seems to match up sort of with the Vitality stuff. There will ofc be many confounding variables though...

paulryanrogers 3mo ago
It would suck to pay more based on bad or poorly understood data. Especially since I doubt they'll willingly give refunds if their foundational data is proven to be problematic.
- timbaboon 3mo ago
  Oh for sure. It's a carrot-type program though. So you don't get any penalties for not doing something, but you get rewards for doing things.
  - myroon5 3mo ago
    Discounting from higher default prices rather than penalizing from lower default prices is more of a branding difference than an economic difference: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47952034 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47952034
    - timbaboon 3mo ago
      Yeah but in South Africa medical aid rates are regulated by the government and all companies have to stick with that rate. The idea is that if you keep your customers healthy then there are fewer claims.

adamsmark 3mo ago

Something that has worked surprisingly well for me is journaling via voice recording on my phone. It's been so effective that I've mapped it to my phone's physical shortcut button. I have struggled with on-and-off sleep issues for a while, and I'll admit I don't always follow perfect sleep hygiene. But there is something about dumping my thoughts out loud that completely shuts down the repetitive, circular thinking that usually keeps me awake.

LinuxAmbulance 3mo ago
Is there a particular structure to it, or just whatever is at the top of your mind?

djeiekei 3mo ago

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redanddead 3mo ago

Just my 2c Bryan Johnson says you should base your life around your sleep. He’s totally right … but he won’t get young men to sleep in at 8pm New sleep meds are creating a new lever here and serve a real empowering function in a way that culture hasn’t caught up to yet When we think of traditional sleep meds we think of sedatives and it has an identity connotation to it. The new meds coming out, not just in sleep either, are changing a lot of things. I’m talking about designer drugs, new pathways, multiple agonists etc etc. By total accident a month ago, I was prescribed a medication for sleep, lemborexant (not into trade names for drugs, more power to generics) I didn’t plan on ever getting a sleep med. I don’t see myself as a sleep med guy lol. I didn’t walk into a clinic thinking I’d ever want one either. But to me this feels like a peptide or an athletic recovery supplement. And I think there’s even better and newer out there Having this lever has personally helped me a lot. Why? Because it’s very easy to let sleep quality slip over time. Here are a few questions I wished someone had asked me a year or two ago: -Have you been dreaming? When’s the last time you had a vivid dream? If you can’t even recall that, it’s a big red flag. If you haven’t been dreaming, your sleep quality could be junk -Erections during sleep? Just something to take note of -Waking up tired or ready for the day? -How long does it take you to fall asleep? There’s a key distinction there between how long you’re in bed vs. how long you’re actually sleeping. Check your apple health data. It’s so easy to mess this up, in this modern age especially, it’s why I’m hooked. There are far too many variables that could affect a key function of your life, especially for young guys. An afterparty, a hookup, a stressful period in business, a productive all-nighter, or just overthinking instead of sleeping People notice when you don’t sleep well

deinonychus 3mo ago
>… but he won’t get young men to sleep in at 8pm i've never had a problem with staying or even falling asleep, instead my issue is *wanting* to go to bed and getting myself there. adhd, executive dysfunctoning/akrasia, screens, chores i procrastinated all evening, etc, all give me too many things to do at night instead of tucking myself into bed. i basically don't feel tired at all until i lay down. i don't notice i'm mentally wiped until i start bottomfragging in a video game at 2 am. i've taken melatonin (and magnesium) for a long time, but only in the past few months i started taking it like 3 hours before bed, after reading scott alexander's psychiatry website, instead of right beforehand. i also happen to have been recently RXd a drug called guanfacine which dampens sympathetic activity (think fight-or-flight) and when i take it with the above pills, i finally *feel* tired at 10 pm. my body is heavy and slow and my brain starts craving being turned off. it's remarkable. there's something about *feeling* tired that is humbling and makes me feel human. weird! BJ et all aren't joking when they say the biggest performance enhancer is sleep and especially regularity. i would rather sleep 6 hours and wake up at my normal time, than slide my schedule around and hit 8 and sleep in. but when i hit 8 on my usual schedule it's like i have superpowers. i don't make gains at the gym unless i sleep well. and it's such a funny thing to say out loud, but i don't need coffee when i'm rested. when i'm rested and take a coffee, it feels like i just drank 3 coffees and i'm ODing on top of my natural alertness.

cortic 3mo ago

Sleep is a predictor of poverty and poverty is a predictor of mortality. But i suspect if you hop over the second part there will be more funding in telling poor people to sleep there way to longevity.

fittingopposite 3mo ago
> Sleep is a predictor of poverty Curious. Any sources for this. How does this work? Feel like many high paying, stressful jobs are actually bad for your sleep.
- cortic 3mo ago
  plenty of studies into this; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1389945717302551 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13899... https://futurecarecapital.org.uk/latest/deprivation-linked-to-poorer-quality-sleep/ https://futurecarecapital.org.uk/latest/deprivation-linked-t... https://www.nature.com/nature-index/topics/l4/socioeconomic-influences-on-sleep-health https://www.nature.com/nature-index/topics/l4/socioeconomic-...

keeda 3mo ago

Somewhat related, I once met the author of a book about sleep [1] and asked about my specific case. At that time I was splitting half my time across two continents 10 time zones apart but working largely in the same timezone, about 2 - 3 months at a time. That is, every 2 - 3 months I switched from a 1st shift sleep schedule to a "2.5th shift" one. So I asked him how bad that was for my health. He said that as long as people are mostly regular in their sleep hours, the actual timings don't matter much. However, extended periods of irregular sleep schedules are actually (his words) "classified as a type of carcinogen." I briefly looked into the evidence at the time but did not find it very concerning. TFA does make a more compelling case by linking it to all-cause mortality. [1] I believe it was The Sleep Solution by M. Chris Winter, though I may be wrong. I can only remember it had a blue cover, but turns out pretty much ALL books about sleep have a blue cover. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

codedokode 3mo ago

Could it be that irregular sleeping is caused by inner clock being off due to genetic errors, and genetic errors are the main cause of mortality? I.e. irregular sleep is not the cause but the indicator? Or irregular sleep corresponds to bad habits like drinking and using drugs and they are the cause of mortality? Or, could it be that problems with sleep are caused by using alarm clocks, i.e. not waking up naturally but forcefully at unnatural time? Waking up at the same time every day benefits people whose inner clock has 24h period and disadvantage people with clock tuned to 23h or 25h day. Or I am wrong?

tsoukase 3mo ago

Studies that reach HN and other pop places usually have a lot in common: they link a widespread, modifiable and 'catchy' factor (like sleep, sugar/meat etc consumption, human relations) with a single sensational end point (death), and involve 5/6-figures number of participants. Another common one is a huge confounding spill that makes them useless for practical decisions but valuable for further, more rigorous research design.

hart_russell 3mo ago
I think in this instance, it wouldn’t be shocking that irregular sleep would increase all cause mortality.
- tsoukase 3mo ago
  Another common property of such studies is that their result is mildly surprising. Not much so that it will be scrutinised and questioned and not indifferent because no one will care about them. So, you receive your expectation.

pedalpete 3mo ago

We wrote about the "why" on our blog a few months ago [1], but the short version Sleep is a complex interplay of multiple systems within the body. A consistent/regular schedule means the brain/body is not guessing what you are asking of it. It knows when to reduce cortisol, drop body temperature, etc. etc. A simple example: When you force yourself to stay awake longer, your body attempts to compensate by increasing cortisol, then when you try to go to bed later, it can't just switch off the cortisol. It needs to clear it in your system. Then the next domino falls of when does your brain/body expect you to wake up? What are you asking of it? [1]https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-doesnt-depend https://blog.affectablesleep.com/p/the-hidden-work-of-sleep-...

confidantlake 3mo ago

Opened this thread expecting to see a bunch of anecedotal sleep tips. Did not disappoint.

humanfromearth9 3mo ago

So if I regularly sleep at different hours, is it OK?

iamthejuan 3mo ago

I solved my sleeping patterns by sleeping very early at around 7 p.m. or 8 p.m., also it feels like sleep and hunger have something in common like if you skip the hunger for a while, you won't feel hunger for a while same goes with sleeping. At least it is my own experience.