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I'm somewhat surprised that this is not open source (from what I can tell). Compare to Mimo Code https://github.com/XiaomiMiMo/MiMo-Code https://github.com/Xiao

I'm somewhat surprised that this is not open source (from what I can tell). Compare to Mimo Code https://github.com/XiaomiMiMo/MiMo-Code https://github.com/XiaomiMiMo/MiMo-Code (which is a CLI, while this is a desktop app).

dizhn 4mo ago
It's only a cli because they yanked out the opencode desktop code. (As well as the opencode go/zen model provider) Edit: my theory is they wanted to mimic being the primary provider in a quick way with a lot of string replace. Though they could have added opencode back as a regular provider.
- versteegen 4mo ago
  MiMo Code adds a lot of cool orchestration features to OpenCode! It definitely is NOT a quick find-replace job, it's genuinely someone's research project to create a better agent harness building on top of free software, and that's awesome. See https://mimo.xiaomi.com/blog/mimo-code-long-horizon https://mimo.xiaomi.com/blog/mimo-code-long-horizon
  - dizhn 4mo ago
    They did remove the opencode provider though and the desktop and web interfaces. I was trying to be charitable. By the way, their repo was a bit weird with no changelogs at all. It seems to be picking up speed now with their communication. I actually read in the changelog just now that their Compose (plan/executre/review etc. something like that) flow is now deterministic with software instead of just prompts. That could be really good.
SwellJoe 4mo ago
I don't even know what I would do with a desktop app. I'm running these things in headless VMs, so I can run them with `--dangerously-skip-permissions` or whatever. I don't trust them, even without that flag, on my desktop/laptop.
- InsideOutSanta 4mo ago
  Zcode allows you to connect to a Docker container, or to a VM using ssh.
- teaspoon 4mo ago
  Good desktop apps in this category can manage agents across any number of remote SSH hosts.
  - SwellJoe 4mo ago
    But, it's still running on my desktop/laptop. I don't trust them to run on my machine. But, I guess I could run one VM with a desktop to contain the desktop app. Or, just keep using CLI agents.
    - scorpioxy 4mo ago
      Is the trust concern for the agent running in any form on your machine? Like in a VM on your machine as well or do you mean on the host itself? I have read about people giving an agent full access to their main system saying they have nothing of value. To me, that's a strange opinion to have with the distinction between what's private and what's secret.
      - SwellJoe 4mo ago
        I don't run agents directly on my desktop/laptop machine. I run them in VMs or containers (sometimes in containers on VMs). There have been too many credentials stealing exploits via prompt injection and the like for me to be willing to let an agent roam around on my personal system. I've also started creating new github deploy keys for each repo in use on a VM, so the blast area for any given agent disaster is "a couple/few github repos and whatever credentials were needed for the agent/model". I wouldn't let a coworker, even one I know pretty well, log into my personal account on my machines...why would I let an agent that can be tricked into uploading all my credentials to an attackers web server? The agents have sandboxes, but those are loose. Not enforced by anything outside of the agent harness itself.
LaurensBER 4mo ago
They might be sending some user requests to Anthropic to gather trading data for their own models. If they do so, perhaps they need to add some tracer to request that they prefer to hide.
- bogdan 4mo ago
  Source? Or is it "trust me bro"?
  - embedding-shape 4mo ago
    Literally just FUD unless someone has code to point at.
    - anakaine 4mo ago
      Verbally minimising potential threats is not a valid approach to managing risk. We have seen mass misuse of tokens acquired through nefarious means to distill models and enhance training as a way of catching up recently, among other related issues. It is quite appropriate to wonder what else might be going on.
      - _aavaa_ 4mo ago
        Those nefarious distillers, only we are allowed to freely distill the world’s knowledge into our paid products
  - DonsDiscountGas 4mo ago
    "might" means pure speculation
- fwip 4mo ago
  Wireshark would catch that easy-peasy.
  - benatkin 4mo ago
maxloh 4mo ago
I don't find a closed-source Chinese agent system trustworthy. It is essentially a black box with full user permissions, meaning you are just handing over your entire system to a Chinese-owned server. With OpenCode and its GLM provider, at least I can monitor which files were read, which were edited, and what commands were executed. Not to mention that Chinese national security laws legally obligate companies to cooperate with state intelligence and counter-espionage efforts [0]. If you have this installed on a corporate workstation, and your company is large enough, the possibility of them spying on you is not just a risk—it's almost a certainty. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_the_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_t...
- sabedevops 4mo ago
  You shouldn’t find American ones trustworthy either.
saghm 4mo ago
Given that there's such severe concern being expressed by Anthropic about Claude being distilled, and the idea that the harness is part of the the moat, it doesn't seem super surprising that the other side of that would try to also make it harder for them to tell how well they're doing and what their approach is.
- JSR_FDED 4mo ago
  Unlikely considering they’re publishing the Crown Jewels (GLM 5.2) as open weights.
- lelanthran 4mo ago
  > and the idea that the harness is part of the the moat, That idea is wrong, though. These same people thinking harnesses are part of a moat are also boasting that s/ware is easily writable now. There's no secret sauce in a harness that you can't vibe-code into your own harness.
  - jorisw 4mo ago
    > vibe-code into your own Except you'd need the knowledge of what to vibe-code, no?
    - lelanthran 4mo ago
      > Except you'd need the knowledge of what to vibe-code, no? What knowledge? If you've used a harness, you know what it is supposed to do for you! What further knowledge do you need that can't be extracted from an existing harness?
  - saghm 4mo ago
    Why don't the major players open source their harnesses then? As far as I'm aware, the only time the source code for the Claude harness became available, it was due to a mistake (which is it's own whole thing). I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but I do think that when the actions and words of a company conflict, it's a pretty safe bet that the words are just posturing and the actions better reflect their actual belief. In this case, regardless of what they're saying about software being easily writable now, they clearly seem to at least think there's something valuable in the harness if they're not open sourcing it.
cco 4mo ago
You're surprised? I think harnesses are almost as important as the underlying model. Folks have been able to improve benchmark results by nearly 2x based on harness alone. Harnesses are quickly becoming critical components of the "model" itself imo. Not shocking to me at all that a company that spots a revenue opportunity is keeping its harness closed source.
- bermudi 4mo ago
  Source? The most trusted benchmark right now (deepSWE) scores better or just as well on their minimal harness than when using CC or codex
  - theshrike79 4mo ago
    deepSWE clearly doesn't need complex tool calling?
- MrDrMcCoy 4mo ago
  I'm a neophyte. What makes a harness special or all that unique from another? I've had a reasonable experience with Zed and local models, but could be persuaded to put something else in the mix if there is a measurable benefit to be had.
  - tl 4mo ago
    Simple example: a while back LLMs would trip over questions like "how many Rs are in strawberry". Now, the system prompts have a line like "when a user asks for a count, actually count the value by calling a tool if needed". The LLMs cannot get smarter in this regard, next token predictors will hallucinate here. A harness is that covering every blind spot or sub-optimal but probable output people have hit in the wild, and a lot of problems just have better solutions if you say "break problem A into subproblem B and subproblem C, then solve".
_pdp_ 4mo ago
I am not surprised it is not open source. These harnesses are hard to build - they are not just wrappers - and often they contain business logic that is not suitable for public distribution for all kinds of reasons.
- NamlchakKhandro 4mo ago
  hard? wut lol.... no. they. are. not. Some people are just terrible at it.
  - _pdp_ 4mo ago
    I was thinking the same and I changed my mind. Also you don't need to believe me. There is enough evidence in the open source space.
  - port11 4mo ago
    Maybe they’re not “hard” to build, but some are sufficiently complex because they’re tailored to a model. If Z thinks their harness can improve on GLM’s shortcomings, that can give them a tiny edge, I guess? Dunno. I’ve moved to Pi for most of my work and it’s finally better than Claude Code for me; BUT the Anthropic models are definitely better in CC itself.
anderber 4mo ago
That looks to be a copy of OpenCode
- russelg 4mo ago
  A fork, yes.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
addozhang 4mo ago
I'd prefer a CLI over a desktop. But then why don't I just use OpenCode?

dizhn 4mo ago

It's only a cli because they yanked out the opencode desktop code. (As well as the opencode go/zen model provider) Edit: my theory is they wanted to mimic being the primary provider in a quick way with a lot of string replace. Though they could have added opencode back as a regular provider.

versteegen 4mo ago
MiMo Code adds a lot of cool orchestration features to OpenCode! It definitely is NOT a quick find-replace job, it's genuinely someone's research project to create a better agent harness building on top of free software, and that's awesome. See https://mimo.xiaomi.com/blog/mimo-code-long-horizon https://mimo.xiaomi.com/blog/mimo-code-long-horizon
- dizhn 4mo ago
  They did remove the opencode provider though and the desktop and web interfaces. I was trying to be charitable. By the way, their repo was a bit weird with no changelogs at all. It seems to be picking up speed now with their communication. I actually read in the changelog just now that their Compose (plan/executre/review etc. something like that) flow is now deterministic with software instead of just prompts. That could be really good.

SwellJoe 4mo ago

I don't even know what I would do with a desktop app. I'm running these things in headless VMs, so I can run them with `--dangerously-skip-permissions` or whatever. I don't trust them, even without that flag, on my desktop/laptop.

InsideOutSanta 4mo ago
Zcode allows you to connect to a Docker container, or to a VM using ssh.
teaspoon 4mo ago
Good desktop apps in this category can manage agents across any number of remote SSH hosts.
- SwellJoe 4mo ago
  But, it's still running on my desktop/laptop. I don't trust them to run on my machine. But, I guess I could run one VM with a desktop to contain the desktop app. Or, just keep using CLI agents.
  - scorpioxy 4mo ago
    Is the trust concern for the agent running in any form on your machine? Like in a VM on your machine as well or do you mean on the host itself? I have read about people giving an agent full access to their main system saying they have nothing of value. To me, that's a strange opinion to have with the distinction between what's private and what's secret.
    - SwellJoe 4mo ago
      I don't run agents directly on my desktop/laptop machine. I run them in VMs or containers (sometimes in containers on VMs). There have been too many credentials stealing exploits via prompt injection and the like for me to be willing to let an agent roam around on my personal system. I've also started creating new github deploy keys for each repo in use on a VM, so the blast area for any given agent disaster is "a couple/few github repos and whatever credentials were needed for the agent/model". I wouldn't let a coworker, even one I know pretty well, log into my personal account on my machines...why would I let an agent that can be tricked into uploading all my credentials to an attackers web server? The agents have sandboxes, but those are loose. Not enforced by anything outside of the agent harness itself.

LaurensBER 4mo ago

They might be sending some user requests to Anthropic to gather trading data for their own models. If they do so, perhaps they need to add some tracer to request that they prefer to hide.

bogdan 4mo ago
Source? Or is it "trust me bro"?
- embedding-shape 4mo ago
  Literally just FUD unless someone has code to point at.
  - anakaine 4mo ago
    Verbally minimising potential threats is not a valid approach to managing risk. We have seen mass misuse of tokens acquired through nefarious means to distill models and enhance training as a way of catching up recently, among other related issues. It is quite appropriate to wonder what else might be going on.
    - _aavaa_ 4mo ago
      Those nefarious distillers, only we are allowed to freely distill the world’s knowledge into our paid products
- DonsDiscountGas 4mo ago
  "might" means pure speculation
fwip 4mo ago
Wireshark would catch that easy-peasy.
- benatkin 4mo ago

maxloh 4mo ago

I don't find a closed-source Chinese agent system trustworthy. It is essentially a black box with full user permissions, meaning you are just handing over your entire system to a Chinese-owned server. With OpenCode and its GLM provider, at least I can monitor which files were read, which were edited, and what commands were executed. Not to mention that Chinese national security laws legally obligate companies to cooperate with state intelligence and counter-espionage efforts [0]. If you have this installed on a corporate workstation, and your company is large enough, the possibility of them spying on you is not just a risk—it's almost a certainty. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_the_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_t...

sabedevops 4mo ago
You shouldn’t find American ones trustworthy either.

saghm 4mo ago

Given that there's such severe concern being expressed by Anthropic about Claude being distilled, and the idea that the harness is part of the the moat, it doesn't seem super surprising that the other side of that would try to also make it harder for them to tell how well they're doing and what their approach is.

JSR_FDED 4mo ago
Unlikely considering they’re publishing the Crown Jewels (GLM 5.2) as open weights.
lelanthran 4mo ago
> and the idea that the harness is part of the the moat, That idea is wrong, though. These same people thinking harnesses are part of a moat are also boasting that s/ware is easily writable now. There's no secret sauce in a harness that you can't vibe-code into your own harness.
- jorisw 4mo ago
  > vibe-code into your own Except you'd need the knowledge of what to vibe-code, no?
  - lelanthran 4mo ago
    > Except you'd need the knowledge of what to vibe-code, no? What knowledge? If you've used a harness, you know what it is supposed to do for you! What further knowledge do you need that can't be extracted from an existing harness?
- saghm 4mo ago
  Why don't the major players open source their harnesses then? As far as I'm aware, the only time the source code for the Claude harness became available, it was due to a mistake (which is it's own whole thing). I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but I do think that when the actions and words of a company conflict, it's a pretty safe bet that the words are just posturing and the actions better reflect their actual belief. In this case, regardless of what they're saying about software being easily writable now, they clearly seem to at least think there's something valuable in the harness if they're not open sourcing it.

cco 4mo ago

You're surprised? I think harnesses are almost as important as the underlying model. Folks have been able to improve benchmark results by nearly 2x based on harness alone. Harnesses are quickly becoming critical components of the "model" itself imo. Not shocking to me at all that a company that spots a revenue opportunity is keeping its harness closed source.

bermudi 4mo ago
Source? The most trusted benchmark right now (deepSWE) scores better or just as well on their minimal harness than when using CC or codex
- theshrike79 4mo ago
  deepSWE clearly doesn't need complex tool calling?
MrDrMcCoy 4mo ago
I'm a neophyte. What makes a harness special or all that unique from another? I've had a reasonable experience with Zed and local models, but could be persuaded to put something else in the mix if there is a measurable benefit to be had.
- tl 4mo ago
  Simple example: a while back LLMs would trip over questions like "how many Rs are in strawberry". Now, the system prompts have a line like "when a user asks for a count, actually count the value by calling a tool if needed". The LLMs cannot get smarter in this regard, next token predictors will hallucinate here. A harness is that covering every blind spot or sub-optimal but probable output people have hit in the wild, and a lot of problems just have better solutions if you say "break problem A into subproblem B and subproblem C, then solve".

_pdp_ 4mo ago

I am not surprised it is not open source. These harnesses are hard to build - they are not just wrappers - and often they contain business logic that is not suitable for public distribution for all kinds of reasons.

NamlchakKhandro 4mo ago
hard? wut lol.... no. they. are. not. Some people are just terrible at it.
- _pdp_ 4mo ago
  I was thinking the same and I changed my mind. Also you don't need to believe me. There is enough evidence in the open source space.
- port11 4mo ago
  Maybe they’re not “hard” to build, but some are sufficiently complex because they’re tailored to a model. If Z thinks their harness can improve on GLM’s shortcomings, that can give them a tiny edge, I guess? Dunno. I’ve moved to Pi for most of my work and it’s finally better than Claude Code for me; BUT the Anthropic models are definitely better in CC itself.

anderber 4mo ago

That looks to be a copy of OpenCode

russelg 4mo ago
A fork, yes.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

addozhang 4mo ago

I'd prefer a CLI over a desktop. But then why don't I just use OpenCode?