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Feds Killed Polestar and Spared Volvo
- SilverElfin 3mo agoIt’s because the Polestar cars have a lot more electronic surveillance than the Volvo models, which have had only minor tweaks and have mostly not been updated for years.
- Terr_ 3mo agoIf it were just about electronic surveillance, a bunch of other cars/manufacturers would be getting impeded or at least get some sort of negative scrutiny. https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/cars/ https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/cate...
- andsoitis 3mo agoNone of those are Chinese-owned, as far as I can tell. Polestar is predominantly Chinese-owned. Federal Connected Car Rules instituted a ban on the company selling cars in the United States.
- killingtime74 3mo agoAll of them are Chinese owned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geely. Geely, Polestar, Volvo, Zeekr, Smart, Lotus. All the same group
- caminante 3mo agoDid you mean to reply to a different comment? I don't see any of those on the mozillafoundation page, per @andsoitis.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- killingtime74 3mo agoOops, indeed
- mukbangpervert 3mo agoCorrection: it is because a major Republican donor wants Chinese cars banned, because they beat the living shit out of his offerings on quality and value. It is silly to credulously pretend that the excuse about Chinese software has even a whiff of legitimacy.
- natch 3mo agoIt's hard to parse this without concluding that you are perhaps unaware that Volvo is Chinese.
- mukbangpervert 3mo agoI should've said competitive Chinese EVs to be precise. (Though I thought that anybody as smart as you think you are would've inferred that without issue)
- dybber 3mo agoThey need to balance between the Silicon Valley oligarchs desires and the MAGA voters possible reactions. Banning Volvo would probably not be well received by MAGA, at least Trump would need a bit more time to build the case that these vehicles are now unreliable.
- natch 3mo agoHaving spent some time in California and seen things town by town at a very granular level, I think woke voters are the ones driving Volvos. So while I didn’t quite follow that reference, it’s true that if Trump were to ban them for simply being owned by China, then he’d be kind of screwed because he’d then have to ban all his own merch like the Trump phone and his made-in-China MAGA hats.
- carlivar 3mo agoIsn't this using Biden administration guidelines?
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- IneffablePigeon 3mo agoHuh? Polestar and Volvo’s electric models share a very large part of their software stack, see [1]. I’ve seen forum posts talking about where the service centre accidentally loaded the Volvo software onto a Polestar. There is really quite a lot shared between the vehicles of these two companies. [1] https://insideevs.com/news/774024/volvo-software-ex90-fixes/ https://insideevs.com/news/774024/volvo-software-ex90-fixes/
- andsoitis 3mo agoIt does not terrify me.
- jleyank 3mo agoMight it be that one sells EV’s and the other sells ICE cars? Or perhaps stupidity re Volvo’s ownership? Or a missing bribe?
- linzhangrun 3mo agoVolvo also has BEVs, which are rebadged Zeekr (Geely) and mainly sold in China.
- dcrazy 3mo agoVolvo’s EX line of EVs is sold here in the U.S.
- Kon5ole 3mo agoTo be clear - most of Volvo's BEVs are their own designs, including all currently for sale in the US.
- linzhangrun 3mo agoIn China, those that they can still sold out is, lol :) The Volvo EM90 ($92,371+) is the Zeeker 009 ($64,572+). The Volvo EX30 ($23,504+) is the Zeeker X ($22,916+).
- cuu508 3mo agoOr maybe somebody at the decision table had sentimental feelings for Volvo. Like Kyoto.
- jauntywundrkind 3mo agoThe feds also controlling who has access to AI models. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48692995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48692995 It's all just this lawless personal fealty shit.
- delichon 3mo agoIt would be better if the AI censorship was lawless, rather than authorized by the Arms Export Control Act of 1976, since that would allow the Article III branch of the federal government to be a defense against it. The lawfulness makes it worse.
- malcolmgreaves 3mo agoThe same kind of thinking was used on encryption algorithms in the 90s.
- uproarchat 3mo agoOnly a few of us are big enough to fit an LLM on a tshirt
- delichon 3mo agoYou could fit all of Mythos on a t-shirt in microfilm size. But washing a microfilm shirt would be tricky.
- AnthonyMouse 3mo agoSome people have been pointing out for decades that granting unchecked discretionary powers to the executive branch is a hazard. Now there is an executive using them to do things a lot of people don't like. Are the people who don't like it going to withdraw those powers the next time they have the opportunity? The main alternative is more of this.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- elzbardico 3mo agoProbably the stupid politician behind it didn't get the memo that Volvo is no longer a swedish company?
- scythe 3mo agoI think it's half this and half that Volvo is still a recognizable brand that Americans grew up with. My mother had a Volvo when I was seven. People would react if Volvo was banned. Polestar? What's that? But Geely can throw down the gauntlet by building Polestars and relabeling them Volvos.
- onesociety2022 3mo agoThis is probably the reason. Volvo brand is well established in the USA while Polestar is new. So not very Americans would complain if Polestar is banned as compared to Volvo.
- cookiengineer 3mo agoMaybe Volvo has some Swedish brand advertising running on Fox news?
- hnarn 3mo agoThat depends on which Volvo you’re talking about.
- jfengel 3mo agoIf you waited until today to get terrified... Then I guess you're one of today's unlucky 10,000. Congratulations, or something.
- illiac786 3mo agoWell but they were one of the lucky ones not living in terror for all the days past. Truly lucky, no irony here.
- catigula 3mo ago[flagged]
- mullingitover 3mo agoOur cheap exports: competitive, free markets maximizing efficiency and delivering value to consumers Their cheap exports: sinister pump and dump
- kev009 3mo agoI think a national security argument is much more sound than an economic one, although costs are externalized in a way that isn't obvious, i.e. ecological disaster that shipping everything around the world and back (components, assemblies) is, and hollowing out a local supply chain takes virtually no time while the impact or limits of it are hidden until abrupt breakage (i.e. covid-era shortages on basic supplies, wars, or heavy handed statesmen dictating preferential access to silicon or whatever today). That is, every nation has to maintain some stake in not hollowing out completely while still participating in global commerce. Once upon a time nations understood the issues better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_telephone_switches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_telephone_switches
- catlikesshrimp 3mo agoWhat about the telephone switches?
- AnotherGoodName 3mo agoWhat makes a car ‘made in China’ (therefore over 100% tariffs) vs ‘assembled in the USA’ (therefore no tariffs)? The battery, engine and everything else is absolutely Chinese made. I don’t know how much assembly there is honestly but i feel the Geely, err i mean Polestar was a little close to that line. I will say the laws around this indicate just how ridiculous tariffs can be. There’s always some line to press up against and honestly if electric motors, batteries, car bodies and wheels from china have different tariffs to a car as a whole it’s always going to lead to china shipping those parts in an easy to bolt together way to ‘make a car’.
- mixologic 3mo agoRead up on the "chicken tax" for how long the auto industry has navigated weird assemvly games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
- walrus01 3mo agoI think my favorite part would be where they were unbolting entire seats and feeding them directly into industrial shredders. "Ford imported all of its first-generation Ford Transit Connect models as "passenger vehicles" by including rear windows, rear seats, and rear seat belts.[1] The vehicles were exported from Turkey on ships owned by Wallenius Wilhelmsen Logistics (WWL), arrived in Baltimore, and were converted back into light trucks at WWL's Vehicle Services Americas, Inc. facility by replacing rear windows with metal panels and removing the rear seats and seat belts.[1] The removed parts were not shipped back to Turkey for reuse, but shredded and recycled in Ohio.[1] The process exploited the loophole in the customs definition of a light truck; as cargo does not need seats with seat belts or rear windows, presence of those items automatically qualified the vehicle as a "passenger vehicle" and exempted the vehicle from "light truck" status. The process cost Ford hundreds of dollars per van, but saved thousands in taxes.[1]"
- bagels 3mo agoI wonder if manufacturers are using LLMs to find all the dumb loopholes in the laws that they can.
- trhway 3mo agothe main point to me here is that such decisions should be fully public including all the input info and all the reasoning that is behind the decision, similar to a court case. Instead we have that guessing game.
- garyfirestorm 3mo agoCorruption and transparency are polar opposites
- mikrotikker 3mo agoNot when it comes to issues of national security
- garyfirestorm 3mo agolol public roads are mapped on Google Maps
- trhway 3mo agoespecially national security - the society should be aware what trade-offs are made for the security of that society, ie. what the real costs and whether the society wants to bear those costs and considers it reasonable. If you meant specifically trade and state secrets - well, there has been a well established practice of handling such in for example court system and other public proceedings/disclosures/FOIA/etc..
- ChrisArchitect 3mo agoRelated: Feds deny Polestar authorization to sell cars in US from model year 2027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48678494 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48678494
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- fsckboy 3mo ago>Polestar is done in the U.S. market. Its sister brand Volvo, owned by the same Chinese parent company, was spared. No one has explained why. The U.S. Federal Government is meddling with the automotive industry, the free market, and capitalism. I'm not saying "trust the government", not at all. But meddling in China trade is absolutely not meddling with the free market.
- DangitBobby 3mo agoHow is preventing a Chinese brand from selling here not meddling in the free market?
- AnthonyMouse 3mo ago"Free market" implies regulators aren't picking winners and losers etc. If China subsidizes their export industry to make manufacturing in other countries uncompetitive then it's already not a free market. Ideally what you would want is to get China to stop doing that, but now propose a mechanism to get them to.
- decimalenough 3mo agoHave you seen Polestar's pricing? They're very much positioned as the premium EV option and their pricing is pretty much the opposite of dumping.
- AnthonyMouse 3mo agoCommercial airliners cost tens of millions of dollars, does that imply a company that makes them isn't being subsidized by their government? China subsidizes (among other things) battery manufacturing, which is the biggest single cost for making EVs. If you get your batteries cheaper than competing companies then you can make premium cars with an electric range at the high end of the market and then use the subsidized cost to provide other amenities that cause customers to choose your product over alternatives even at a premium price. It allows you to take the high end of the market on value just as well as the low end on cost.
- Eufrat 3mo agoThe policy of the United States is currently a roulette wheel suffering from dementia that believes that Siri is a Norwegian supermodel they can use to seed the future Herrenrasse.
- johaugum 3mo agoSiri was invented by a Norwegian (Dag Kittlaus), named after his own daughter! Steve Jobs later called and bought his company.
- WarmWash 3mo agoThe entire article doesn't once stipulate that the grounds for banning a Chinese owned car is having telemetry that phones home to China. Maybe Volvo still does and it's a mystery why they can still sell here. Maybe Volvo doesn't and there is no story here. But if the car talks to China and gets updates from China, the US doesn't care if it's built here.
- stephbook 3mo agoDo you have an official announcement this is the case or are you just making excuses for this administration?
- pegasus 3mo agoHe's just saying the article does not even discuss this vital distinction, let alone bring evidence either way.
- stephbook 3mo agoIt's impossible to prove the nonexistance and mentioning hearsay wouldn't be good. The onus is on the commentator to substantiate his claims of there being a rationale.
- juliusceasar 3mo agoWell, that is not true. The 'nonexistance' part. All new car phone home, and that is somewhere on the world.
- xethos 3mo agoIronic coming from the country with three domestic OEMs, and routinely threatens economic annexation of my country
- idiotsecant 3mo agoIt also doesn't discuss if the polestar was made of asbestos or if it was dangerous to unicorn spawning habitat.
- Kon5ole 3mo agoI would be more terrified if they didn’t spare a manufacturer who designs and makes cars in Sweden and the US since decades just because the majority owner is Chinese.
- queenkjuul 3mo agoPolestar designs cars in Sweden and builds then in the US for many years, it's still strange
- Kon5ole 3mo agoI don't think Polestar should be banned, nor any other Chinese car maker for that matter, but I can understand why Volvo gets a different treatment. Volvo probably employs several 1000s of people throughout the US from decades of dealerships, workshops, second hand sales etc, and they have a relatively large factory in the US. Polestar OTOH has no factories and use direct-sales instead of going through dealerships. So it's likely that Volvo generates a lot more value inside the US than they extract, while Polestar probably doesn't.
- hawkice 3mo agoThe vast majority of the value provided vs extracted, for any business, is related to consumer surplus and gross margins, as opposed to payroll.
- Kon5ole 3mo ago>The vast majority of the value provided vs extracted, for any business, is related to consumer surplus and gross margins, as opposed to payroll. Not sure what you mean here but I suspect we're talking about different things. Payroll is obviously value created by the business that's directly given to the society where the business operates, and it's not uncommon that it's higher than the company profits. Take Amazon for example, payroll costs are much higher than the profits. Car companies also create a secondary maintenance and repair business, insurance and financing business, resale business and so on that generate more value in the country they operate as well. So I find it likely that a well established car brand like Volvo generates more money that stays in the US than they generate money that is extracted out from the US.
- chvid 3mo agoIf you go to China you will see plenty of KFC, Starbucks, Apple, and Tesla. American companies that all make billions out of the Chinese market. Yet the US government seems happy to play games like this; there must be someone thinking - hey the shoe could soon be on the other foot? Maybe we should cool it a bit ...
- ronsor 3mo agoThose are the exceptions that prove the rule. It's very difficult for US or Western companies in general to do business in China without opaque restrictions, corruptions, and share ownership hoops. If the US is playing games, then it's closer to kids playing soccer on weekends; China is already in the pro leagues.
- chvid 3mo agoThe simple story is: If you go to China you will see US brands everywhere. If you go to the US, you will see Chinese brands nowhere.
- Markoff 3mo agoReally, you will see TCL (and Hisense) nowhere in US? I recommend visiting any store selling TVs. Same goes for Thinkpad/Motorola, but I guess there at could argue these are not original Chinese brands.
- chvid 3mo agoSome history for context: In 1999 Swedish Volvo spins out and sells Volvo Cars to Ford (Volvo Sweden continues making trucks and heavy equipment) for 6.45 B USD. In 2010 Ford sells Volvo Cars to Geely for 1.8 B USD. iN 2017 Geely spins out Polestar from Volvo Cars. In 2021 Geely IPOes Polestar at NYSE for 20 B USD. Leonardo DiCaprio-Backed Electric Automaker Polestar Valued At $20 Billion In SPAC Deal https://deadline.com/2021/09/leonardo-dicaprio-backed-electric-vehicle-maker-polestar-spac-1234844898/ https://deadline.com/2021/09/leonardo-dicaprio-backed-electr... Polestar, the electric vehicle company backed by Volvo of Sweden and Leonardo DiCaprio was valued at $20 billion in a SPAC deal that will take it public.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- ornornor 3mo agoTerrify me? Really? There are other, genuinely terrifying things happening right now: climate change, human rights violations, animal rights, the spread of totalitarianism… that’s terrifying.
- decimalenough 3mo agoThe spread of totalitarianism as, perhaps, exemplified by the US government arbitrarily deciding that certain cars can't be sold in the US, even if they're manufactured in the US and meet all applicable regulations?
- solenoid0937 3mo agoTotalitarianism on the rise in the global hegemon doesn't terrify you?
- woodpanel 3mo agoGranted, it seems inconsistent to treat Volvo different from Polestar. It might be just, that Volvo will get the Axe in a separate process, it might be sheer incompetence of the US admin, or it might be a deliberate negotiation tactic. But what annoys me the most about the article is this constant praise of „China Speed“, Cost-Advantages and Love of the Free Market, as if not every single Chinese Automaker, including its Suppliers down to the tiniest screw is a State owned entity, massively subsidized and in general part of a rigged market. This is not to take from the accomplishments of the Chinese, but a major part of the last 30+ years of development is just massive screwing and exploiting the western open market and its companies. Yeah, we’ve not forgotten the droves of people blatantly stealing IP on every trade show imaginable and a state completely absent from enforcing IP when ever another Chinese car is dropped to the market that looks 100% like a Benz, Porsche or Land Rover.
- bruce511 3mo agoEverytime the issue of Chinese state subsidies comes up, two things occur to me. First, a "subsidy" is just govt tax money. In other words it comes from somewhere. It is, in effect, the Chinese people, contributing to the creation, or development of an industry. Clearly the Chinese govt thinks this is a sound commercial strategy, and certainly from here (considering their global dominance in manufacturing) it appears to be working. Secondly, it's not like all countries don't subsidize industries of their own. Although their decisions of what to subsidy varys a lot. For example the US subsidizes weapons production. To the tune of a trillion $ a year. That spills over a bit into commercial stuff (Boeing for example.) And sure, there is some export value (although that may decline in the long term given current political isolationism.) Of course you can't spend a trillion a year if the storehouse is full. It's necessary to expend some munitions from time to time to make room for new ones. But I digress. To go back, when people complain that US products are expensive because of Chinese (or other) subsidies- just be aware that the US subsidizes more than most. They just target industries that have little to no economic value to US citizens, and which can't be purchased by domestic or indeed foreign citizens. The US could easily subsidize electric cars, or solar, or wind manufacturing but it chooses to subsidize airplanes and naval ships and tank builders instead. It chooses to spend money on 2 million employees (armed forces) rather than on 2 million factory workers, or day-care facilitators, or health-care workers.
- insane_dreamer 3mo agodammit, was planning on buying a Polestar at the end of this year when our Tesla lease runs out
- Schiendelman 3mo agoAt least you have the R2 now!
- carlivar 3mo agoWith screen operated motorized vents. Eww.
- Schiendelman 3mo agoSame as the Polestar. Honestly, I think that ship has sailed, most users don't want the vents visible at all anymore, and that means no little tabs. I agree it's a bummer, but it's like 400th on my ranked priority list of things to care about when buying a car.
- insane_dreamer 3mo agoI would have bought the Tesla a few years ago but will never willingly put $ in the pocket of someone like Elon
- Schiendelman 3mo agoThere's an interesting mental exercise there. When someone is that rich, does the few hundred dollars from a car sale matter? Honestly, until Rivian, all the other EVs were so bad that it didn't make sense to get the pyrrhic victory.
- insane_dreamer 3mo ago> When someone is that rich, does the few hundred dollars from a car sale matter? You're right, it doesn't make any difference to Elon. I'm not doing it to hurt Elon, I'm doing it for me, because I don't want to be putting my hard-earned money towards his enterprises. It's the same reason why people will stop buying products from companies who use sweatshops with child labor, etc. > Honestly, until Rivian, all the other EVs were so bad that it didn't make sense to get the pyrrhic victory. Absolutely. And I was huge fan of Tesla in the beginning, put a deposit on the 3 model when first came out years ago, before Elon went off the rails. Thankfully now there are more options.
- pomian 3mo agoIf course is nothing to do with true logic. It's dictator logic. If they didn't bribe = donate, to the dump family wealth fund, they don't rate access to production.
- craftoman 3mo agoThe land of the free. What a joke.