8 ms·

Notes on DeepSeek

211 points by vinhnx 4mo ago

arkhiver 4mo ago
[dead]
cmrdporcupine 4mo ago
[dead]
cmrdporcupine 4mo ago
"As a whole, China seems to treat AI as just another technology, rather than as some kind of singularity moment." This is a refreshing perspective.
- flawn 4mo ago
  The CCP knows, whatever the heck this technology will bring with itself, the current power dynamic inside of the country is on their side, and AI will solidify it. I hypothesize that, rather than slowly having it disperse in society and allow people to harness it in ways they don't want, they might as well accelerate everything until AI becomes the totalitarian swiss knife - which they can make use of in the best way of course. Let's see what will happen.
  - cmrdporcupine 4mo ago
    I don't really see how open weights models further what you're talking about. It's trivial for me to download one of their models and run it on my Spark, and there's all sorts of ways to strip out their Tiananmen-denialism or whatever. If/when the memory price crunch dissipates, even more so. And so far it's only China I see as making moves to increase production capacity on memory, too. If anything the centralization of capital into US-based Anthropic and OpenAI is far more terrifying from the perspective you're outlining.
  - culi 4mo ago
    US used AI (Claude on Maven) to determine a girl's elementary school as a target in war[0] and then triple tapped it and you're still more worried about hypothetical misuses of the single country responsible for this technology not being concentrated in the hands of a few powerful elite? ffs [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2026/03/11/us-strike-iran-elementary-school-ai-target-list/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2026/03/11/...
    - SXX 4mo ago
      Its horrible event, but it was hit because Iranian regime builds schools and hospitals across the street from military bases. Nothing to do with AI and can happen in any war. Do some research, check sattelite imagery: https://goo.gl/maps/ZoAXkw1iFwyF7exQ8?g_st=ac https://goo.gl/maps/ZoAXkw1iFwyF7exQ8?g_st=ac PS: I not trying defend bombing schools, but posting that its "AI" resposible is opposite of what you need to do if you care. Its military - there been specific people who found this location for the strike, then some senior officers who choose it without checking and specific people who executed it. And its all logged with "paper" trail in chain of command. It was all people with specific names who are responsible to avoid bombing schools. They failed. Not "AI".
      - culi 4mo ago
        The U.S. operates over 160 public schools physically located on military installations https://oldcc.gov/our-programs/public-schools-military-installations https://oldcc.gov/our-programs/public-schools-military-insta... I never said AI is responsible. I pointed out the US is clearly the one using AI in dystopian ways.
    - applicative 4mo ago
      This was obviously a story - a telltale 'admission' - devised by the military.
- infecto 4mo ago
  China is probably more capitalist in many respects than the west these days. AI, robotics and automation is a way to push into the future. In the west we have endless researchers stuck in a psychosis that they are talking to a sentient being.
- surgical_fire 4mo ago
  Especially here on HN, where AI anxiety (especially amongst those that are really nervous that it needs to succeed) is very, very tiresome.
- SockThief 4mo ago
  "National attention is still on basic needs and infrastructure buildouts, and on providing more medicines for people. The “dreams of singularity" seem like a luxury or distant consideration." Further on. Refreshing indeed.
- sinuhe69 4mo ago
  The CCP is very active in the matter of AI. In fact, the DeepSeek moment was responsible for Xi calling for a private meeting with tech bosses, including the exiled Alibaba founder Ma. Which is practically unheard of in China politics. I don't have enough information to say whether the Chinese leadership sees AI "just as the next technology" or they are more cautious due to its double-sword nature. But the immense efforts for building their own AI/GPU chips plus government's billions fund pushed for AI build out, a directive for fast pace integration on large scale and a sweeping national education reform for AI, I don't think it can be seen as similar to other ordinary techs. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-prepares-295-billion-plan-fund-nationwide-ai-buildout-bloomberg-news-2026-06-09/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-prepares-295-billi... [1] https://www.globalneighbours.org/en/articles/china-unveils-national-ai-education-plan-to-transform-classrooms-by-2030 https://www.globalneighbours.org/en/articles/china-unveils-n... [2] https://english.www.gov.cn/news/202606/10/content_WS6a296017c6d00ca5f9a0b876.html https://english.www.gov.cn/news/202606/10/content_WS6a296017...
  - SXX 4mo ago
    > I don't think it can be seen as similar to other ordinary techs. Not saying its a bad thing, but US and EU limited exports of chips and litography equipment to China for decades. There is literally nothing else China can do to secure their supply of chips. They would do it even without AI bubble. Its military tech now and this is not just about LLMs. Autonomous flying killbots need GPUs too.
  - pstuart 4mo ago
    There's plenty to not like about the CCP, but their strategic investment in the country as a whole is impressive. It would be great to have that on our side as well but with the current state of things that is a non-starter.
    - pooploop64 4mo ago
      We have a lot of propaganda to deprogram regarding it being evil to do that.
- coliveira 4mo ago
  The whole "AI race" is a construct of American startup founders trying to get more money. The government picked up that line because it seems fun and useful to be "wining a race" against China. It's all nonsense. China doesn't care if they get AI first or second, they can replicate anything in a few months. They know it's only an excuse to get more money in the hands of billionaires.
- est 4mo ago
  I may have some explaination. China is an atheist country. The whole "creation" thing didn't even mean anything special to normal Chinese people. Chinese viewer have a meh reaction to Edward Scissorhands, they don't have a Frankenstein Complex.
dude250711 4mo ago
"Their Head of Infrastructure, in particular, was young; maybe 30 years old and apparently one of the best AI buildout and energy experts in the country" Expert in buildout or expert in distillation?
- seydor 4mo ago
  What's wrong with distillation? Wasn't GPT a distillation of the world's internet? That's how technology levels proceed, by recursively consuming the previous ones.
  - boristsr 4mo ago
    It's absolutely mind boggling to see claims of model distillation being theft, a class of attack, and all sorts of claims all the while Meta is in court for copyright violation, anthropic has had to settle a case with authors. With distillation "attacks" at least they paid API fees.
    - FergusArgyll 4mo ago
      There are 2 things worth separating. 1) China distills and is therefore morally bad. As you rightly point out, that's not a great argument. 2) China distills and is therefore possibly not that competent. I think that makes sense. If they only catch up to the frontier through distillation then 1) Their model will never be as good as the model they are distilling from. 2) They will never reach the frontier - they need someone else to do it first.
      - _aavaa_ 4mo ago
        This is literally a repeat of the whole “China only make low quality cheap stuff” argument. “All they do is copy.” And now, oops they are world leaders in EVs, batteries, solar, drones, just to name a few on the biggest consumer facing things.
        plasticsoprano 4mo ago
bel8 4mo ago
From the notes, they seem humble and empathic. We're lucky to have China imposing competiton to the western AI megacorps. If it wasn't for China, I would probably have to spend $100/mo on AI instead of $10 like I do currently while using DeepSeek and MiMo (opencode Go plan). And while I could do so comfortably, I feel for those who can't. It must feel incredibly isolating to only watch others have access to expensive models to leverage their careers. I hope SoTA AI becomes an universal right because it will contribute to too much income disparity otherwise.
- cmrdporcupine 4mo ago
  Yep. After yesterday's moves around "Fable 5" even twice as much. We've had a taste, and damned if I'm going to have the "means of production" snatched from me already?
  - genewitch 4mo ago
    approximately how many months/years until there are "illegal models"?
    - kennywinker 4mo ago
      You wouldn’t steal a brain
      - cmrdporcupine 4mo ago
        ... watch me ;-)
- Qhemlomo 4mo ago
  I see this problem already for me. I have unlimited tokens at work than i go home what do i do? Spend 200$ per month? No def not. When Anthropic increased the limits for their 20$ plan, i started again coding with it on a private project and it was fun and i did a lot in that 4 weeks.
- alecco 4mo ago
seydor 4mo ago
US AI is almost a religious cult. It's devastating that they are treating it as a petty commodity
- windexh8er 4mo ago
  I would argue the US providers have gone full tilt into sales culture with respect to AI. Anything is said on a whim to redirect attention back from whomever is in the limelight. Initially I thought Anthropic was more pragmatic, but the constant release cycles of things that don't exist for most people, the gatekeeping, the statements made by Dario, it's all a part of large brand toxic sales and marketing. From the notes this part sat with me as the real difference: > As a whole, China seems to treat AI as just another technology, rather than as some kind of singularity moment. National attention is still on basic needs and infrastructure buildouts, and on providing more medicines for people. The “dreams of singularity" seem like a luxury or distant consideration. Meanwhile... In the fantasy land over here in the US we're constantly being told that it's "coming", "almost here", "too powerful for us to give you access to", "of national security importance!". Or... FUD. And while there may be trace amounts of truth in those overzealous statements we haven't seen a significant improvement in much outside of software development comparative to the spend and environmental impact.
- alecco 4mo ago
  Altman used to talk about making a religion and Dario Amodei constantly talks about "building a God" and meets with religious leaders including the Vatican. > It got me thinking, though--the most successful founders do not set out to create companies. They are on a mission to create something closer to a religion, and at some point it turns out that forming a company is the easiest way to do so. [1] [1] https://blog.samaltman.com/successful-people https://blog.samaltman.com/successful-people
  - coliveira 4mo ago
    That's what we get for having psychopaths walking around as if they're technology leaders.
gbraad 4mo ago
Not sure what I read, but sounded like a lunch meeting description; felt void of actual information, with the restaurant replaced by the office. I am in China and can tell it is either Kimi, DeepSeek or Claude (proxied or actually deepseek/fake). The bigger push for the general public died down a lot since last year; kids were pushed to use AI for homework, now it is disallowed and frowned upon. In short mixed messaging.
- adampunk 4mo ago
  It’s a puff piece written by someone who didn’t know (or didn’t care) they were being managed.
  - gbraad 4mo ago
    "Like this, read my blog" — said DeepSeek
- genewitch 4mo ago
  > kids were pushed to use AI for homework, now it is disallowed and frowned upon. In short mixed messaging. in the early 2000s in california universities you'd get marked down for citing wikipedia. so the good souls told everyone "see the number in brackets[2] after what you're trying to cite the article for? just click that then click the archive.org or whatever link there, then cite that." Now? i think wiki is considered a valid source? or has it flopped back to being "unreliable"?
  - sheept 4mo ago
    It's not that it's unreliable, it's just lazy research. Wikipedia, like all encyclopedias, is a tertiary source, but ideally your essay should be a mix of primary and secondary sources, while Wikipedia discourages original research and prefers only secondary sources. Wikipedia itself recommends against citing it as research[0] for this reason. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia
    - 4mo ago
zkmon 4mo ago
Why would the agent send the results of the query "Show me my recent transactions" to LLM? This pretty deterministic results which involve no LLM interpretation or decision making.
- forsalebypwner 4mo ago
  wrong thread?
quadruple 4mo ago
Post appears to have been removed, I caught a copy of it: https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1 https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1 I assume it will get reposted at some point.
- swyx 4mo ago
  thanks. this really isnt that long, might as well paste in full here since OP deleted. Notes on DeepSeek: We visited the company HQ last Tuesday. It was founded in 2023 by Liang Wenfeng and operated out of his hedge fund, High-Flyer, until somewhat recently. The company released their R1 model in January 2025, so it was interesting to see what they’ve been doing The company is located in an unmarked, 12-story building in Hangzhou. There is no DeepSeek branding visible from the street or lobby. I asked why this is, and the team demurred and said, “Well, there are many companies in this building, and we are not special.” They want to keep a low profile. We met with their Head of Data and Head of Infrastructure. The company only has 300 employees. They are at least an order-of-magnitude smaller than Anthropic, and don’t care to scale further just yet. Their Head of Infrastructure, in particular, was young; maybe 30 years old and apparently one of the best AI buildout and energy experts in the country. (We briefly walked through the labs, and everybody seemed young. There was a lot of discussion; it felt like an exciting and energetic place.) Lots of competition is coming from Alibaba (Qwen), ByteDance, and Moonshot (Kimi). People in China seem to mostly use Kimi or Deepseek. Young people use VPNs to access Claude, though Anthropic has blockers around usage in China and make it difficult. Poaching between groups is common, just like in the U.S. DeepSeek has a reputation as being really smart and “cool,” maybe similar to Anthropic. Big labs are mostly in Beijing, near Tsinghua and Peking University, with Hangzhou as the main exception (DeepSeek and Alibaba/Qwen are there). The DeepSeek team reads western AI writers. They listen to Dwarkesh and read Gwern. The people we met with said they had never met with any employees from Anthropic. They were not at all concerned with some kind of hostile / AGI takeover scenario. They kept bringing up job loss (which is already high amongst youth in China) as their main concern. When we asked if they do red teaming on their models, they said no. In China, AI models are not regulated directly; the government instead has restrictions on how those models can be used in software, services, etc. As a whole, China seems to treat AI as just another technology, rather than as some kind of singularity moment. National attention is still on basic needs and infrastructure buildouts, and on providing more medicines for people. The “dreams of singularity" seem like a luxury or distant consideration. We asked the DeepSeek team: “What has the highlight been so far? What are your plans for an exit?” And they said that their highlight and great achievement was R1. They did not gesticulate at a future model or vision, but rather seemed proudest of what they’ve already done. They are content for now to remain ~6 months behind U.S. companies while maintaining a lower profile and team size.
alecco 4mo ago
I remember reading a similar tweet explaining DeepSeek breaks the insane Chinese work culture. They are against 996 and brutally grinding employees. They feel like a big family and that is their hedge against poaching by Chinese Big Tech with bigger salaries. Liang Wenfeng seems to be the only AI CEO down to earth. I want to believe.
- throwaw12 4mo ago
  > They feel like a big family A lot of companies were like this in 1970-80s based on stories from my parents and grandparents. People worked in the same company for 30-40 years, when they were sick their colleagues felt like friends and visited them, tried to help with whatever they could. vs now.... I heard XYZ is sick today (they were sick once in a year), deadlines will definitely slip, give me this project, because it is impactful for me next promo
  - kasey_junk 4mo ago
    lol. That is some really good history rewriting. My grandparents didn’t get sick days! If you were sick there was a good chance you lost your job (except my grandmother who was college educated and was a public school teacher). None of them worked for the same firm for 30 years because they’d get laid off, or go on strike or the plant would shut down or the crop would fail and they’d have to go get a factory job. This glory days nonsense was exclusively reserved for the upper class. It’s pure privilege to believe jobs were in some way better historically than they are now.
    - throwaw12 4mo ago
      if it helps, I am based in EU
    - trollbridge 4mo ago
      My grandparents (in the United States) all got sick days. One grandfather drove coal trucks in and out of an open pit coal mine. The other one was a letter carrier, and for a short while owned a dry-cleaning finishing business. (One reason they got out of owning their own business was the stress of things like how you don't get sick days when you are your own boss.) My grandma who worked at an insurance office was likewise the same. They all got sick days, although it was a point of pride to hardly ever use them. None of them were remotely upper class. My one side might have been middle class before the depression, though. The other side was so poor that it didn't make a big difference when the depression happened. They worked in those jobs from WWII until they retired, longer than 30 years. They were able to ensure their children went to college, except for one who enlisted in the Navy instead. And then they helped all of their children buy their own houses, eventually. They saved a lot and built big savings for retirement when rates were high in the 1970s and early 1980s. Their children all have a Master's degree; their grandchildren all have a Bachelor's, one has a Master's, one has an M.D., so upward mobility really did exist back then. (The grandparents of my cousins were all solidly working class as well.)
vinhnx 4mo ago
It seems the OP has removed the tweet somehow.
- prodigycorp 4mo ago
  arent you OP?
- davidwritesbugs 4mo ago
  someone kept a copy: https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1 https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
imagetic 4mo ago
Deepseek v4 Pro is the first model I've sat down with in pi.dev and haven't felt like I've had to fiddle with the knobs to get working results.
nikolay 4mo ago
I can't recall the scientist's name, but he said months ago that DeepSeek is best for Physics (maybe it was on The Diary of a CEO podcast). So I had a long chat about the Simulation Hypothesis, and I was really surprised by how good, deep, and straight to the point it was. What's brutal is that Google, which started this AI revolution, has literally the worst coding model! I tried 3.5 Flash last week (the stupid still pays for Ultra due to Google One's storage), and before I gave up on 3.1 Pro, I saw a coding agent hallucinate for the first time in months, even at the highest effort level! Meanwhile, I've tried DeepSeek with the DeepSeek TUI (now CodeWhale), and it didn't do any worse than Codex or Claude Code. I know there are benchmarks and all, some of them gamed, I'm sure, but in real-world experience, DeepSeek is absolutely amazing for its price! If you have software engineering skills and are not an accidental vibe-coder, honestly, try it out and stop burning money. I'm sure you will get even better results with OpenCode! Human Intelligence + Artificial Intelligence beats the highest AI model without the guidance of a HI! Meanwhile, I burned through my entire budget on the $200 Max for Fable 5, for a modest-amount project in Python using its own CLI coding agent. What a waste! I keep hearing "always use the bestest model" - no, always use the most practical one for the job! I got so many issues with Fable on a very small project that even Copilot found that it's simply not worth it for 99% of your tasks!
- HSO 4mo ago
  steve hsu?
  - nikolay 4mo ago
    > steve hsu? Actually, just searched my history, and it was Alexander Unzicker [0], actually. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuLjsFMzZrE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuLjsFMzZrE
- ThePhysicist 4mo ago
  Yeah Fable 5 is good but feels incremental and overhyped, also burned through my entire Cursor allowance in my Ultra plan in a single day. Ridiculous. They just want to create FOMO and appear mysterious so companies and users will feel so special for being allowed to use this model and pony up more money. After all they have to grow a few order of magnitude to pump their IPO valuation as much as possible, so I think this is just a strategy to justify their increased token pricing which starts to become absolutely insane. 10-20k per month per developer, do companies really think that's a good way to spend their IT budget? I assume 99 % of software shops wrtite run-of-the-mill web/mobile/desktop apps or some legacy backend APIs and CRUD code, you don't need a superintelligence to crank that stuff out. It sounds so ridiculous to have a model that supposedly can design biological weapons and then 99 % of users vibe code spaghetti Javascript with it. But the spice must flow!
slopinthebag 4mo ago
Funny this was posted here the same day the Anthropic CEO posted a doomsday prediction begging for government regulation. I was curious how the Chinese feel about AI risks considering I would expect them to be more cautious than the Americans, but they clearly aren’t. Which indicates to me that the Anthropic CEO is probably just pushing for regulatory capture. I mean, maybe he believes what he is saying, but I don’t.
chvid 4mo ago
Sorry you had to remove this post. As far as I can tell it did not say anything that is not already in the public domain. The story of DeepSeek is incredibly inspirational: The founder being a phd in computer science, completely bootstrapping his AI efforts by doing quantitative trading, and even as they reached the frontier in the hottest subfield being more open than any other lab about what they were doing. In general I find the attitude of the Chinese AI labs (and government) to be refreshingly not "AGI-pilled" and focusing on the correct downsides of AI (the effect on youth employment and the messing up of higher education).
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- verdverm 4mo ago
  AllenAi seems to the most open lab to me, sharing not just models and even training data, but also the training code and methodologies. https://allenai.org/olmo https://allenai.org/olmo
  - chvid 4mo ago
    It is not on the “frontier” in any meaningful way.
- tim333 4mo ago
  On not "AGI-pilled": >DeepSeek Founder Avows AGI Goal Ahead of $10 Billion Funding https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-22/deepseek-founder-declares-agi-goal-as-10-billion-round-advances https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-22/deepseek-...
orespo 4mo ago
What are the notes?
toat 4mo ago
mm NFB nnmnh...n..nbbnnb guuuuhhn.nn
toat 4mo ago
b .. unumkm jjjjjjj+hn.m
wg0 4mo ago
Is this a link or post or what?
- plewd 4mo ago
  From another user who copied it: https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1 https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1
jingpostmedia 4mo ago
[flagged]
jingpostmedia 4mo ago
[flagged]
manassehermans 4mo ago
[flagged]
m_barsukou 4mo ago
The more competitive the field is - the lower the prices should become anyways

Notes on DeepSeek

211 points by vinhnx 4mo ago

arkhiver 4mo ago

[dead]

cmrdporcupine 4mo ago

[dead]

cmrdporcupine 4mo ago

"As a whole, China seems to treat AI as just another technology, rather than as some kind of singularity moment." This is a refreshing perspective.

flawn 4mo ago
The CCP knows, whatever the heck this technology will bring with itself, the current power dynamic inside of the country is on their side, and AI will solidify it. I hypothesize that, rather than slowly having it disperse in society and allow people to harness it in ways they don't want, they might as well accelerate everything until AI becomes the totalitarian swiss knife - which they can make use of in the best way of course. Let's see what will happen.
- cmrdporcupine 4mo ago
  I don't really see how open weights models further what you're talking about. It's trivial for me to download one of their models and run it on my Spark, and there's all sorts of ways to strip out their Tiananmen-denialism or whatever. If/when the memory price crunch dissipates, even more so. And so far it's only China I see as making moves to increase production capacity on memory, too. If anything the centralization of capital into US-based Anthropic and OpenAI is far more terrifying from the perspective you're outlining.
- culi 4mo ago
  US used AI (Claude on Maven) to determine a girl's elementary school as a target in war[0] and then triple tapped it and you're still more worried about hypothetical misuses of the single country responsible for this technology not being concentrated in the hands of a few powerful elite? ffs [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2026/03/11/us-strike-iran-elementary-school-ai-target-list/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2026/03/11/...
  - SXX 4mo ago
    Its horrible event, but it was hit because Iranian regime builds schools and hospitals across the street from military bases. Nothing to do with AI and can happen in any war. Do some research, check sattelite imagery: https://goo.gl/maps/ZoAXkw1iFwyF7exQ8?g_st=ac https://goo.gl/maps/ZoAXkw1iFwyF7exQ8?g_st=ac PS: I not trying defend bombing schools, but posting that its "AI" resposible is opposite of what you need to do if you care. Its military - there been specific people who found this location for the strike, then some senior officers who choose it without checking and specific people who executed it. And its all logged with "paper" trail in chain of command. It was all people with specific names who are responsible to avoid bombing schools. They failed. Not "AI".
    - culi 4mo ago
      The U.S. operates over 160 public schools physically located on military installations https://oldcc.gov/our-programs/public-schools-military-installations https://oldcc.gov/our-programs/public-schools-military-insta... I never said AI is responsible. I pointed out the US is clearly the one using AI in dystopian ways.
  - applicative 4mo ago
    This was obviously a story - a telltale 'admission' - devised by the military.
infecto 4mo ago
China is probably more capitalist in many respects than the west these days. AI, robotics and automation is a way to push into the future. In the west we have endless researchers stuck in a psychosis that they are talking to a sentient being.
surgical_fire 4mo ago
Especially here on HN, where AI anxiety (especially amongst those that are really nervous that it needs to succeed) is very, very tiresome.
SockThief 4mo ago
"National attention is still on basic needs and infrastructure buildouts, and on providing more medicines for people. The “dreams of singularity" seem like a luxury or distant consideration." Further on. Refreshing indeed.
sinuhe69 4mo ago
The CCP is very active in the matter of AI. In fact, the DeepSeek moment was responsible for Xi calling for a private meeting with tech bosses, including the exiled Alibaba founder Ma. Which is practically unheard of in China politics. I don't have enough information to say whether the Chinese leadership sees AI "just as the next technology" or they are more cautious due to its double-sword nature. But the immense efforts for building their own AI/GPU chips plus government's billions fund pushed for AI build out, a directive for fast pace integration on large scale and a sweeping national education reform for AI, I don't think it can be seen as similar to other ordinary techs. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-prepares-295-billion-plan-fund-nationwide-ai-buildout-bloomberg-news-2026-06-09/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-prepares-295-billi... [1] https://www.globalneighbours.org/en/articles/china-unveils-national-ai-education-plan-to-transform-classrooms-by-2030 https://www.globalneighbours.org/en/articles/china-unveils-n... [2] https://english.www.gov.cn/news/202606/10/content_WS6a296017c6d00ca5f9a0b876.html https://english.www.gov.cn/news/202606/10/content_WS6a296017...
- SXX 4mo ago
  > I don't think it can be seen as similar to other ordinary techs. Not saying its a bad thing, but US and EU limited exports of chips and litography equipment to China for decades. There is literally nothing else China can do to secure their supply of chips. They would do it even without AI bubble. Its military tech now and this is not just about LLMs. Autonomous flying killbots need GPUs too.
- pstuart 4mo ago
  There's plenty to not like about the CCP, but their strategic investment in the country as a whole is impressive. It would be great to have that on our side as well but with the current state of things that is a non-starter.
  - pooploop64 4mo ago
    We have a lot of propaganda to deprogram regarding it being evil to do that.
coliveira 4mo ago
The whole "AI race" is a construct of American startup founders trying to get more money. The government picked up that line because it seems fun and useful to be "wining a race" against China. It's all nonsense. China doesn't care if they get AI first or second, they can replicate anything in a few months. They know it's only an excuse to get more money in the hands of billionaires.
est 4mo ago
I may have some explaination. China is an atheist country. The whole "creation" thing didn't even mean anything special to normal Chinese people. Chinese viewer have a meh reaction to Edward Scissorhands, they don't have a Frankenstein Complex.

dude250711 4mo ago

"Their Head of Infrastructure, in particular, was young; maybe 30 years old and apparently one of the best AI buildout and energy experts in the country" Expert in buildout or expert in distillation?

seydor 4mo ago
What's wrong with distillation? Wasn't GPT a distillation of the world's internet? That's how technology levels proceed, by recursively consuming the previous ones.
- boristsr 4mo ago
  It's absolutely mind boggling to see claims of model distillation being theft, a class of attack, and all sorts of claims all the while Meta is in court for copyright violation, anthropic has had to settle a case with authors. With distillation "attacks" at least they paid API fees.
  - FergusArgyll 4mo ago
    There are 2 things worth separating. 1) China distills and is therefore morally bad. As you rightly point out, that's not a great argument. 2) China distills and is therefore possibly not that competent. I think that makes sense. If they only catch up to the frontier through distillation then 1) Their model will never be as good as the model they are distilling from. 2) They will never reach the frontier - they need someone else to do it first.
    - _aavaa_ 4mo ago
      This is literally a repeat of the whole “China only make low quality cheap stuff” argument. “All they do is copy.” And now, oops they are world leaders in EVs, batteries, solar, drones, just to name a few on the biggest consumer facing things.
      - plasticsoprano 4mo ago

bel8 4mo ago

From the notes, they seem humble and empathic. We're lucky to have China imposing competiton to the western AI megacorps. If it wasn't for China, I would probably have to spend $100/mo on AI instead of $10 like I do currently while using DeepSeek and MiMo (opencode Go plan). And while I could do so comfortably, I feel for those who can't. It must feel incredibly isolating to only watch others have access to expensive models to leverage their careers. I hope SoTA AI becomes an universal right because it will contribute to too much income disparity otherwise.

cmrdporcupine 4mo ago
Yep. After yesterday's moves around "Fable 5" even twice as much. We've had a taste, and damned if I'm going to have the "means of production" snatched from me already?
- genewitch 4mo ago
  approximately how many months/years until there are "illegal models"?
  - kennywinker 4mo ago
    You wouldn’t steal a brain
    - cmrdporcupine 4mo ago
      ... watch me ;-)
Qhemlomo 4mo ago
I see this problem already for me. I have unlimited tokens at work than i go home what do i do? Spend 200$ per month? No def not. When Anthropic increased the limits for their 20$ plan, i started again coding with it on a private project and it was fun and i did a lot in that 4 weeks.
alecco 4mo ago

seydor 4mo ago

US AI is almost a religious cult. It's devastating that they are treating it as a petty commodity

windexh8er 4mo ago
I would argue the US providers have gone full tilt into sales culture with respect to AI. Anything is said on a whim to redirect attention back from whomever is in the limelight. Initially I thought Anthropic was more pragmatic, but the constant release cycles of things that don't exist for most people, the gatekeeping, the statements made by Dario, it's all a part of large brand toxic sales and marketing. From the notes this part sat with me as the real difference: > As a whole, China seems to treat AI as just another technology, rather than as some kind of singularity moment. National attention is still on basic needs and infrastructure buildouts, and on providing more medicines for people. The “dreams of singularity" seem like a luxury or distant consideration. Meanwhile... In the fantasy land over here in the US we're constantly being told that it's "coming", "almost here", "too powerful for us to give you access to", "of national security importance!". Or... FUD. And while there may be trace amounts of truth in those overzealous statements we haven't seen a significant improvement in much outside of software development comparative to the spend and environmental impact.
alecco 4mo ago
Altman used to talk about making a religion and Dario Amodei constantly talks about "building a God" and meets with religious leaders including the Vatican. > It got me thinking, though--the most successful founders do not set out to create companies. They are on a mission to create something closer to a religion, and at some point it turns out that forming a company is the easiest way to do so. [1] [1] https://blog.samaltman.com/successful-people https://blog.samaltman.com/successful-people
- coliveira 4mo ago
  That's what we get for having psychopaths walking around as if they're technology leaders.

gbraad 4mo ago

Not sure what I read, but sounded like a lunch meeting description; felt void of actual information, with the restaurant replaced by the office. I am in China and can tell it is either Kimi, DeepSeek or Claude (proxied or actually deepseek/fake). The bigger push for the general public died down a lot since last year; kids were pushed to use AI for homework, now it is disallowed and frowned upon. In short mixed messaging.

adampunk 4mo ago
It’s a puff piece written by someone who didn’t know (or didn’t care) they were being managed.
- gbraad 4mo ago
  "Like this, read my blog" — said DeepSeek
genewitch 4mo ago
> kids were pushed to use AI for homework, now it is disallowed and frowned upon. In short mixed messaging. in the early 2000s in california universities you'd get marked down for citing wikipedia. so the good souls told everyone "see the number in brackets[2] after what you're trying to cite the article for? just click that then click the archive.org or whatever link there, then cite that." Now? i think wiki is considered a valid source? or has it flopped back to being "unreliable"?
- sheept 4mo ago
  It's not that it's unreliable, it's just lazy research. Wikipedia, like all encyclopedias, is a tertiary source, but ideally your essay should be a mix of primary and secondary sources, while Wikipedia discourages original research and prefers only secondary sources. Wikipedia itself recommends against citing it as research[0] for this reason. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_Wikipedia
  - 4mo ago

zkmon 4mo ago

Why would the agent send the results of the query "Show me my recent transactions" to LLM? This pretty deterministic results which involve no LLM interpretation or decision making.

forsalebypwner 4mo ago
wrong thread?

quadruple 4mo ago

Post appears to have been removed, I caught a copy of it: https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1 https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1 I assume it will get reposted at some point.

swyx 4mo ago
thanks. this really isnt that long, might as well paste in full here since OP deleted. Notes on DeepSeek: We visited the company HQ last Tuesday. It was founded in 2023 by Liang Wenfeng and operated out of his hedge fund, High-Flyer, until somewhat recently. The company released their R1 model in January 2025, so it was interesting to see what they’ve been doing The company is located in an unmarked, 12-story building in Hangzhou. There is no DeepSeek branding visible from the street or lobby. I asked why this is, and the team demurred and said, “Well, there are many companies in this building, and we are not special.” They want to keep a low profile. We met with their Head of Data and Head of Infrastructure. The company only has 300 employees. They are at least an order-of-magnitude smaller than Anthropic, and don’t care to scale further just yet. Their Head of Infrastructure, in particular, was young; maybe 30 years old and apparently one of the best AI buildout and energy experts in the country. (We briefly walked through the labs, and everybody seemed young. There was a lot of discussion; it felt like an exciting and energetic place.) Lots of competition is coming from Alibaba (Qwen), ByteDance, and Moonshot (Kimi). People in China seem to mostly use Kimi or Deepseek. Young people use VPNs to access Claude, though Anthropic has blockers around usage in China and make it difficult. Poaching between groups is common, just like in the U.S. DeepSeek has a reputation as being really smart and “cool,” maybe similar to Anthropic. Big labs are mostly in Beijing, near Tsinghua and Peking University, with Hangzhou as the main exception (DeepSeek and Alibaba/Qwen are there). The DeepSeek team reads western AI writers. They listen to Dwarkesh and read Gwern. The people we met with said they had never met with any employees from Anthropic. They were not at all concerned with some kind of hostile / AGI takeover scenario. They kept bringing up job loss (which is already high amongst youth in China) as their main concern. When we asked if they do red teaming on their models, they said no. In China, AI models are not regulated directly; the government instead has restrictions on how those models can be used in software, services, etc. As a whole, China seems to treat AI as just another technology, rather than as some kind of singularity moment. National attention is still on basic needs and infrastructure buildouts, and on providing more medicines for people. The “dreams of singularity" seem like a luxury or distant consideration. We asked the DeepSeek team: “What has the highlight been so far? What are your plans for an exit?” And they said that their highlight and great achievement was R1. They did not gesticulate at a future model or vision, but rather seemed proudest of what they’ve already done. They are content for now to remain ~6 months behind U.S. companies while maintaining a lower profile and team size.

alecco 4mo ago

I remember reading a similar tweet explaining DeepSeek breaks the insane Chinese work culture. They are against 996 and brutally grinding employees. They feel like a big family and that is their hedge against poaching by Chinese Big Tech with bigger salaries. Liang Wenfeng seems to be the only AI CEO down to earth. I want to believe.

throwaw12 4mo ago
> They feel like a big family A lot of companies were like this in 1970-80s based on stories from my parents and grandparents. People worked in the same company for 30-40 years, when they were sick their colleagues felt like friends and visited them, tried to help with whatever they could. vs now.... I heard XYZ is sick today (they were sick once in a year), deadlines will definitely slip, give me this project, because it is impactful for me next promo
- kasey_junk 4mo ago
  lol. That is some really good history rewriting. My grandparents didn’t get sick days! If you were sick there was a good chance you lost your job (except my grandmother who was college educated and was a public school teacher). None of them worked for the same firm for 30 years because they’d get laid off, or go on strike or the plant would shut down or the crop would fail and they’d have to go get a factory job. This glory days nonsense was exclusively reserved for the upper class. It’s pure privilege to believe jobs were in some way better historically than they are now.
  - throwaw12 4mo ago
    if it helps, I am based in EU
  - trollbridge 4mo ago
    My grandparents (in the United States) all got sick days. One grandfather drove coal trucks in and out of an open pit coal mine. The other one was a letter carrier, and for a short while owned a dry-cleaning finishing business. (One reason they got out of owning their own business was the stress of things like how you don't get sick days when you are your own boss.) My grandma who worked at an insurance office was likewise the same. They all got sick days, although it was a point of pride to hardly ever use them. None of them were remotely upper class. My one side might have been middle class before the depression, though. The other side was so poor that it didn't make a big difference when the depression happened. They worked in those jobs from WWII until they retired, longer than 30 years. They were able to ensure their children went to college, except for one who enlisted in the Navy instead. And then they helped all of their children buy their own houses, eventually. They saved a lot and built big savings for retirement when rates were high in the 1970s and early 1980s. Their children all have a Master's degree; their grandchildren all have a Bachelor's, one has a Master's, one has an M.D., so upward mobility really did exist back then. (The grandparents of my cousins were all solidly working class as well.)

vinhnx 4mo ago

It seems the OP has removed the tweet somehow.

prodigycorp 4mo ago
arent you OP?
davidwritesbugs 4mo ago
someone kept a copy: https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1 https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

imagetic 4mo ago

Deepseek v4 Pro is the first model I've sat down with in pi.dev and haven't felt like I've had to fiddle with the knobs to get working results.

nikolay 4mo ago

I can't recall the scientist's name, but he said months ago that DeepSeek is best for Physics (maybe it was on The Diary of a CEO podcast). So I had a long chat about the Simulation Hypothesis, and I was really surprised by how good, deep, and straight to the point it was. What's brutal is that Google, which started this AI revolution, has literally the worst coding model! I tried 3.5 Flash last week (the stupid still pays for Ultra due to Google One's storage), and before I gave up on 3.1 Pro, I saw a coding agent hallucinate for the first time in months, even at the highest effort level! Meanwhile, I've tried DeepSeek with the DeepSeek TUI (now CodeWhale), and it didn't do any worse than Codex or Claude Code. I know there are benchmarks and all, some of them gamed, I'm sure, but in real-world experience, DeepSeek is absolutely amazing for its price! If you have software engineering skills and are not an accidental vibe-coder, honestly, try it out and stop burning money. I'm sure you will get even better results with OpenCode! Human Intelligence + Artificial Intelligence beats the highest AI model without the guidance of a HI! Meanwhile, I burned through my entire budget on the $200 Max for Fable 5, for a modest-amount project in Python using its own CLI coding agent. What a waste! I keep hearing "always use the bestest model" - no, always use the most practical one for the job! I got so many issues with Fable on a very small project that even Copilot found that it's simply not worth it for 99% of your tasks!

HSO 4mo ago
steve hsu?
- nikolay 4mo ago
  > steve hsu? Actually, just searched my history, and it was Alexander Unzicker [0], actually. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuLjsFMzZrE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuLjsFMzZrE
ThePhysicist 4mo ago
Yeah Fable 5 is good but feels incremental and overhyped, also burned through my entire Cursor allowance in my Ultra plan in a single day. Ridiculous. They just want to create FOMO and appear mysterious so companies and users will feel so special for being allowed to use this model and pony up more money. After all they have to grow a few order of magnitude to pump their IPO valuation as much as possible, so I think this is just a strategy to justify their increased token pricing which starts to become absolutely insane. 10-20k per month per developer, do companies really think that's a good way to spend their IT budget? I assume 99 % of software shops wrtite run-of-the-mill web/mobile/desktop apps or some legacy backend APIs and CRUD code, you don't need a superintelligence to crank that stuff out. It sounds so ridiculous to have a model that supposedly can design biological weapons and then 99 % of users vibe code spaghetti Javascript with it. But the spice must flow!

slopinthebag 4mo ago

Funny this was posted here the same day the Anthropic CEO posted a doomsday prediction begging for government regulation. I was curious how the Chinese feel about AI risks considering I would expect them to be more cautious than the Americans, but they clearly aren’t. Which indicates to me that the Anthropic CEO is probably just pushing for regulatory capture. I mean, maybe he believes what he is saying, but I don’t.

chvid 4mo ago

Sorry you had to remove this post. As far as I can tell it did not say anything that is not already in the public domain. The story of DeepSeek is incredibly inspirational: The founder being a phd in computer science, completely bootstrapping his AI efforts by doing quantitative trading, and even as they reached the frontier in the hottest subfield being more open than any other lab about what they were doing. In general I find the attitude of the Chinese AI labs (and government) to be refreshingly not "AGI-pilled" and focusing on the correct downsides of AI (the effect on youth employment and the messing up of higher education).

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
verdverm 4mo ago
AllenAi seems to the most open lab to me, sharing not just models and even training data, but also the training code and methodologies. https://allenai.org/olmo https://allenai.org/olmo
- chvid 4mo ago
  It is not on the “frontier” in any meaningful way.
tim333 4mo ago
On not "AGI-pilled": >DeepSeek Founder Avows AGI Goal Ahead of $10 Billion Funding https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-22/deepseek-founder-declares-agi-goal-as-10-billion-round-advances https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-22/deepseek-...

orespo 4mo ago

What are the notes?

toat 4mo ago

mm NFB nnmnh...n..nbbnnb guuuuhhn.nn

toat 4mo ago

b .. unumkm jjjjjjj+hn.m

wg0 4mo ago

Is this a link or post or what?

plewd 4mo ago
From another user who copied it: https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1 https://pastebin.com/rcAqEFG1

jingpostmedia 4mo ago

[flagged]

jingpostmedia 4mo ago

[flagged]

manassehermans 4mo ago

[flagged]

m_barsukou 4mo ago

The more competitive the field is - the lower the prices should become anyways