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Declining America
- LogicFailsMe 5mo agoElections have consequences.
- jmclnx 5mo agoyes and the results and actions taken after the Nov 6 US elections may undo some of the damage. But no other country will ever trust the foreign policy of the US no matter what happens.
- sscaryterry 5mo agoThis. Once bitten, twice shy
- drcongo 5mo agoFool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again.
- throwaway-blaze 5mo ago[flagged]
- smaudet 5mo agoOh, don't worry, the way it's going other countries will be fast motivated to defend themselves from said foreign policy...or perish.
- etchalon 5mo agoIt's absolutely shocking how many people believe other countries lack the means to defend themselves.
- EB-BarringtonII 5mo agoUS protection can be valuable, but US dependence is dangerous. The world is moving on.
- HerbManic 5mo agoIt is a combination of moving fast and slow. A lot of Canadians now avoid purchasing products from the US were possible. Mean while their government while still dependent on the US is making the moves that will minimise their dependence on them over the coming decades. I am seeing similar positions in other countries now.
- rockskon 5mo agoNever say never. Germany seems to have recovered quite a lot of trust following World War 2, to provide an extreme example of bad foreign policy.
- iamtheworstdev 5mo agothey're also on the cusp of throwing it all away, again.
- HerbManic 5mo agoIt is wild seeing the elctorial maps of Germany and you can almost exactly recreate the East-West split. Decades later and it is coming back to haunt them.
- apothegm 5mo agoTbf, the east/west split is the one part that wasn’t the Nazis’ fault unless indirectly as a consequence of starting and losing a second World War in a row.
- tommit 5mo agotbf the east-west split never really stopped haunting Germany. its not like it came suddenly. there are a lot of systemic errors that lead to this.
- guyzero 5mo agoDo you think the US is going to have Nuremberg trials? Do you think there will be a deep national reckoning about what happened?
- MisterTea 5mo agoNever say never. > Do you think there will be a deep national reckoning about what happened? About half of the people I know who voted for Trump this past election have deep regrets.
- dyauspitr 5mo agoI don’t think November 6 is going to be a reprieve. They have rigged the system so much that I don’t think it’s actually possible for the Democrats to make a comeback.
- billfor 5mo agoIf they lose it will be because they don’t track unfavorabilty ratings for your democrats as much as they do the current admin. It’s not enough (for moderates) to just say you hate the other guy.
- dyauspitr 5mo agoThe thing is a lot of people hate the other guy. It’s just that all this rigging just means they’re going to be disenfranchised.
- GolfPopper 5mo agoEven if the Democrats do make a comeback, they have spent half a century demonstrating that they are an, at best, an inadequate counter to America's awful political tendencies.
- dyauspitr 5mo agoI actually like what they have done in the past, they’re level headed and reasonable. What I can’t stand and it makes my blood boil that they are completely ineffective without a political mandate. It’s a bunch of career politician cowards that may do well when everything is by the book but they remain completely emasculated when it comes to getting their agenda through. The Republicans even without a mandate will shuck and jive their way into getting their way.
- HerbManic 5mo agoThere is the military saying "Once is an accident, twice is an attack", this is how a lot of folks see it. I think it is deeper, that these actions were taken at the top and a sizable amount of the people sided with them, that sends the message that the US cannot be trusted long term, it has become cultural. I get that it isnt a majority of people but it is big enough that it cannot be ignored.
- boricj 5mo ago"We cannot leave the security of Europe in the hands of voters in Wisconsin every four years." Not trusting the Americans was a French thing ever since De Gaulle. It just took the rest of the Europeans 50 years after his death to pick up on it.
- HerbManic 5mo agoThat is a brilliant line. And yes Emanuel Macron has been taking this treat seriously as he is very well versed on Da Gaulle. He might not have the best domestic moves but when it comes to Geopolitics, he is all over it.
- baggachipz 5mo ago> yes and the results and actions taken after the Nov 6 US elections may undo some of the damage You're assuming that 1) the elections will actually occur on Nov 6, 2) the elections will be fair, and 3) that the winners of said elections would take action and actually enforce the rule of law. I'm not confident in any of those.
- HerbManic 5mo agoIt will be interesting to see what happens. Many are hoping that there is a very strong turn out for the Democrat's so that any rigging cannot over come it, but this sounds like fan fiction to me. That said Trump hitting Iran may be the single biggest blunder of his political career, media influence can only go so far when there is a direct impact on all prices and potential stock availability in the coming months. Hopefully a lot of the fears don't pan out but we won't know until it gets closer. I'm not saying that there aren't better options but both major parties are complicit in how the system is organised. The US electoral system gets ever more distorted with every minor adjustment in the hopes of swinging various seats in their favour and now it just looks ridiculous.
- hattmall 5mo agoReally? Like Italy, Germany, Japan, etc can be trusted but after, I'm not even sure what exactly, the US is fully and forever untrustworthy??
- Lapel2742 5mo ago> Like Italy, Germany, Japan, etc can be trusted but after, I'm not even sure what exactly, the US is fully and forever untrustworthy?? It took two generations and a new constitution for Germans to regain trust again. You cannot trust the current generation of U.S. Americans, and the U.S. Constitution certainly does not alleviate that concern. They elect a god-king like president who seemingly has unlimited authority. Why would you trust such a country for more than four years? Edit: > but after, I'm not even sure what exactly Killing people outside the USA left and right without due process? Starting a war and thinking that it is fun while the whole world is suffering because of that war? Kidnapping a head of state? Cosying up to the enemy of your allies during a war? Threatening allies? Declaring parts of an allied country as your own? Supporting Nazis in allied countries? Supporting separatism in a province of your neighbor (and until recently your closest ally)? Proudly telling the world what country the USA will assault next? ...
- cyanydeez 5mo agono one thought the consequences would include giving 1.8 billion dollars of American taxes to the people who tried to violently overthrow the government and to those who are successfully leading a bloodless coupe. Well, most people, obviously.
- ponkyrisen 5mo ago[flagged]
- nba456_ 5mo ago[flagged]
- bigyabai 5mo agoThen enumerate them.
- ponkyrisen 5mo ago[flagged]
- bigyabai 5mo agoBut not too scared to import Chinese EVs, apparently. Maybe a trade agreement would be a better coercive tool?
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- GolfPopper 5mo agoThe election outcome itself was the consequence of gross, systemic failure throughout the entirety of the United States' citizenry, society, institutions, and government. The best thing for the States to do at this point would be to hold a Constitutional Convention and dissolve the government of the United States as unfit for any purpose, after which their citizens can decide how they wish to proceed.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- zulux 5mo agoNot an easy idea when about ten states have enough nuclear weapons to glass the earth.
- hattmall 5mo agoDamn, a few years of Trump and your solution is to dissolve the US? Really?
- defrost 5mo agoThat was essentially the advice given by Benjamin Franklin, although he suggested turning it off and then on again before a Despot appears otherwise it would be inevitable that a Despot would appear.
- collingreen 5mo ago
- gmuslera 5mo agoEven not participating in elections have consecuences, at least for proper democratic countries. But in countries where participation is mandatory, at least you can say that most of the (national) negatively affected people got what they voted for. For improper "democratic" countries where elections are rigged or participation is biased towards some population sectors in a way or another, they are not really elections by the population.
- jonahbenton 5mo agoNo, not this story. This story is that of Netflix' Chaos Monkey attacking the state most rhetorically aligned/proud of The Rule Of Law and showing in myriad ways how absolutely hollow that pride was and how vulnerable The Law is. Are these bugs that get fixed or...if that was The Last Election, maybe not.
- throwawaypath 5mo agoPushing an unpopular platform loss after loss also has consequencess.
- jmye 5mo ago[flagged]
- throwaway-blaze 5mo ago[flagged]
- Underphil 5mo agoWhether it would happen or not is immaterial. The perceived threat is enough. I've been here on a green card since 2016 and haven't left the country since his second term since I share the exact same fears.
- nchmy 5mo agoPeople - Canadians included - have literally been sent to a gulag at the border crossing, for social media posts and otherwise. Can you really not see why that would cause someone to not want to enter? Moreover, he literally said he continues to be a supporter of that org.
- throwawaypath 5mo ago[flagged]
- kesor 5mo agoPeople have been sent to the gulag by the Canadian government as well, not too long ago. Governments are disgusting.
- HerbManic 5mo agoTerrance McKenna once said something like "The worst government is the one in power, regardless of the time." Essentially, regardless of who is in, they rarely teardown the injustices of the past but merely build on them. They will rip out like 20% of things that are socially changing but after that it is a ratchet upwards on things that cement in further power.
- nchmy 5mo agoHave a link to share about it?
- fylo 5mo ago
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- Felger 5mo ago[flagged]
- siliconc0w 5mo agoEU equities outperformed US in 2025. The Iran war will probably shift this back to the US but launching a new poorly defined war (and arguably losing it) is also a pretty good indicator of decline.
- smileson2 5mo ago[flagged]
- fuddle 5mo agoTIL a new word - "boosterism"
- throwawaypath 5mo ago[flagged]
- ronnier 5mo ago[flagged]
- L-boog 5mo ago[flagged]
- kesor 5mo ago[flagged]
- ravenstine 5mo ago[flagged]
- profsummergig 5mo agoSerious questions: 1) I use "socials" anonymously. Have anon accounts on X, IG, FB. If asked to disclose them at the border (am US citizen, but it's happening to them too), do I disclose the anon accounts? 2) Nothing too controversial in my "socials" (I'm careful), but there's still stuff there that could embarrass me (e.g. mocking or abusing people on X). What would happen if I scrubbed my socials before a trip? Would they be able to find out that I scrubbed, and then construe something about me? 3) Relatedly, is there a recommended way to scrub one's socials? 4) Is something like HN considered part of "socials"? I assume Reddit is. So HN must be too? I've had multiple accounts on HN over the years (been serially banned until I stopped leaving controversial comments). What am I expected to do in such an instance? Do I disclose all the HN accounts? 5) Relatedly, I have multiple X accounts (squatting on usernames). Do I disclose all the accounts?
- stop50 5mo ago1. If you don't and they find out, then you committed an felony. It is the same as the "Are you an terrorist?" questions. Once they want you for more serious stuff like blasphemy against king donald, then they can pull out the convicted felon card and increase the sentence. 2. + 4. It depends 3. If you plan to go to the us while Trump and his chronies are in an position of power, then the best way to scrub them is not to post it. 5. See 1. if you don't disclose all, they can pull the lie on a form card
- jamie_ca 5mo agoMy understanding is (1) yes. (2) maybe, maybe no, depends on if they're looking up people tagging you in threads? If there's signs you're scrubbing yourself out of politically controversial threads that might become problematic. (4) yes, yes, yes. (5) yes. Assuming they do ask in the first place.
- hattmall 5mo agoNo, if they ask just give them the handle of any accounts that are currently on your phone. Just remove anything from your phone or computer if you think it might be an issue, like if you are sharing ISIS videos and stuff. As a citizen you don't have to do anything, but if they ask and you don't let them look at a device they can keep it to inspect it and let you go.
- yearesadpeople 5mo agoIt would appear rage has well and truly been bated. My word.
- ArchieScrivener 5mo ago[flagged]
- gortok 5mo agoThe comments on this HN post nicely color the problem Tim points out, from the comments that assume the exceptionalism of the USA, to comments that say “stay in Canada”, to comments that call the post “moral preening”. I grew up in a very conservative household, and until the tea party/Trumpian alliance would have called myself a small-l libertarian. Now? I won’t vote republican for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which is that it rhymes with the worst parts of the political parties we destroyed in world wars. There’s something new almost every day that should, in a sane culture, cause folks to abandon the Republican Party en masse. Today’s example? The 1.776 Billion “anti-weaponization” fund that is a slush fund for Trump and his allies, including folks that stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021. The grift of this administration is shocking, but the fact that rank-and-file conservatives aren’t abandoning it by the millions gives away the game. It isn’t about principles, it’s about one party winning, no matter what. We used to fight for what’s right, but we have become the villain. Tim is right about the declination of America (realizing his title is a double-entendre), and I can’t help but wonder if there is even a line that Trump could cross to the modern “Republican” party.
- ponkyrisen 5mo ago[flagged]
- Sabinus 5mo agoUse your main account. Go on.
- HerbManic 5mo agoI said in another response, Trump has shown the cards to world that there is a sizable portion of the country that can not be trusted. Other nations have realised this is an embedded problem and cannot be fixed with another election. At least not on a long scale.
- alchemism 5mo agoNot a dissimilar state of affairs from the 1820s. It took 40 years more for that disagreement to come to a head.
- jonahbenton 5mo agoCan't believe this is flagged. As a USer, it is the letter I would advise anyone outside the US to write. It is the only rational response. THIS IS NOT A PLACE OF HONOR.
- timbray 5mo agoMy pieces usually get flagged. Presumably I have annoyed some of the wrong people.
- defrost 5mo agoGood line to save for the epitaph shortlist.
- piloto_ciego 5mo agoI'd like to say that as an American to your north, I think you're right to not come? Things are weird here presently, so I suspect you probably made the right call for a wide variety of reasons. But also, I tire of the nationalist rhetoric wherever I see it. I'm tired of this idea that countries are anything more than a shared historical hallucination, and that we're all somehow different from one another. Or as my father often put it, "we all bleed red and we all shit brown." I never chose to be born here, and because I am sick (through no fault of my own) so called tolerant countries wouldn't have me. So I am stuck here. Regardless, I get why you didn't come, I can't say I blame you, but I also am sick of these damn countries ruining things. Perhaps we should abandon the idea entirely and replace it with the spirit of brotherhood and respect for one's fellow human.
- prewett 5mo agoHave you spent any serious time with other cultures? Yes, we all have the same colored blood and excrement, and we have a lot of similarities. Yet at the same time, we are very different. England's traditional dignity culture (the virtuous man can overlook slights) is very different than Africa's honor culture (honor is zero-sum, and you must fight to maintain it), for instance. Japanese values and American values are frequently opposite (Japan values group membership, America values individuality; Japan honors someone by setting them apart, America honors someone by engaging with them.) In an ideal world we could celebrate each other's differences. But trying to get rid of conflict by getting rid of national borders is naive. Why are the borders where they are? Generally because those are ethno-cultural boundaries. Nations that encompass multiple ethno-cultural groups tend to be somewhat unstable: for instance, Yugoslavia broke up violently, and Iraq has conflict between the Kurds and the rest. This is not a support of nationalism (although I encourage patriotism, which is different), but "countries are [nothing] more than a shared historical hallucination" is just incorrect.
- joshka 5mo agoI think this belongs on hacker news (and unflagged) mainly because of who Tim Bray is. Notably co-inventor of XML, worked on a bunch of web standards etc. Whether you agree or disagree with non-US citizens coming to America to engage in the advancement of technology, the important thing is to have discourse on the topic. That is in line with aims and goals of this site. This story is much less politics and much more about the impact of social policy on technologists. As a non-US citizen myself but who has lived there for some time, I find that having and expressing an opinion on things like this is difficult due to the danger of such retaliation mentioned during border crossings and my daily life.
- WarOnPrivacy 5mo ago> I think this belongs on hacker news (and unflagged) mainly because of who Tim Bray is. A vouch option for Flagged submissions would be appreciated. I wonder if it used to be there but was removed.
- Freedom2 5mo agoI spoke to a few HNers who I know flagged this post. They mentioned that they flagged it because it goes against the HN guidelines - a holy grail of sorts - and that the post does not invite "curious discussion". When prompted, they mentioned they would much rather read about pro-Musk technological exploits than anything against the US.
- insane_dreamer 5mo agothere are tons of posts on HN that don't invite "curious discussion" this is one that would actually invite curious discussion if some people weren't clutching onto their "God Bless America (We're #1!)" pearls quite so tightly
- Teever 5mo agoMore and more I'm finding that the most interesting conversation about America isn't coming from Americans anymore. There was a time where I was quite interested in listening to people from America talk about their fascinating and crazy sounding country, but as time goes on I find that to be much more repetitive and not insightful. Now I'm more interested in what people from other countries have to say about America, and I find it fascinating how Americans online find this unsettling and sometimes get snippy about it really weird ways. Sometimes I wonder what political threads on HN would be like if Americans weren't allowed to participate in them. For the people in the crowd who take things more literally in know this isn't possible, it's just an interesting thought experiment. Would that result in more 'creative' conversation? Maybe for a while until new patterns/tropes/memes were built up by the users that could comment on them. Maybe the issue with the political discussions that too often the people talking about them are too close to them, too immersed in them?
- _as_text 5mo agodamn, the rhetoric in this thread put out by (I presume) Americans is like in 2006 when I got my first Neostrada and I first joined Mac vs PC wars dont mean to offend, just didnt realize things were this rabid over the big pond
- bakies 5mo agohave you seen our leadership?
- atoav 5mo agoYep. If you want foreigners to contribute to your country, you may wanna avoid electing a known geriatric narcissist that has the impulse control of an angry toddler and creates a huge cloud of unpredictablity. Not that US borders were predictable before that men came into office. But when I enter the EU or Japan for example I have fundamental trust in the fact that even if I was not a citizen, my rights would be clear and not violated by some lunatic border officer that had a bad day. Being expected to disclose your social media accounts while them potentially holding you for weeks without any reason? Nah thanks. When I was traveling on the Balkans a decade ago I also had weird border encounters, with Serbian officers expecting bribes. I felt safer there than the expectation of crossing into the US makes me feel. Don't eant people with half a brain coming over? Then we don't. Your choice.
- metalman 5mo agoClever.Concise.Spoken like a true Canadian. As someone with dual Canadian/US citizenship, I cant imagine going to the US anymore, the politics and foriegn policy/wars were never good, but a lot of Americans are good and knew how to have fun, which now seems to be lost under domestic problems and a burgeoning police state. That in this case Tim Bray is declining is a red flag, as he is of the type who could be held up as an emblamatic Canadian, a person, like many others, who carrys the quiet authority of a stable civilisation with them, but rather than this bieng something welcomed by ALL who encounter this, it is now a liability, someone for an armed "agent" to target, humiliate and if possible, reduce or eliminate as an example of there absolute authority in great united states.
- nine_zeros 5mo ago[dead]