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Trials on veterans suggest ibogaine could provide a new treatment for PTSD
- bushwart 5mo agoOriginal title: Ibogaine is a banned hallucinogenic drug. Scientists believe it can help veterans overcome PTSD
- panflute 5mo agoIt seems strange to me to choose ibogaine when Salvia divinorum seems like it has a similar psychological experience without the physical heart risk.
- boxed 5mo agoOr LSD, or magic mushrooms.
- lstodd 5mo agoOr DMT. I also question how they derive the consclusion of a "horrible heart risk". Imo there is not enough evidence for that.
- boxed 5mo agoI mean.. considering the alternatives of magic mushrooms which also have very promising results in early trials and have, afaik, no such scary side effects it seems like any risk big enough for doctors being needed close by seems bad.
- galangalalgol 5mo agoI've been assuming it was some sort of profit motive as TX has been pumping money into it. It seems like there might actually be science driven though. For tramatic brain injury combined with ptsd ibogaine causes a release of glial cell factors that help neuroplasticity wire around the damage. Its also horribly unsafe from a cardiac perspective so you would need a constant eeg during therapy driving up prices. So probably a little of the original motivation too.
- sriacha 5mo agoNot really "horribly unsafe", it seems that with proper prescreening and magnesium supplementation cardiac risk can be safely managed. I was looking into this a few weeks ago. However there is certainly a lack of data, and facilities doing treatment now are probably incentivized not to share adverse events.
- robobro 5mo agoSaliva divinorum is inherently dysphoric due to its agonism of the kappa opiod receptor. For a different cheap legal drug that affects serotonin and the NMDA receptors like ibogaine does, there's always off label use of dextromethorphan (cough medicine)!
- Trasmatta 5mo agoDXM is also the active ingredient in the antidepressant Auvelity (combined with bupropion) Lot of interesting studies and anecdotes on its efficacy as an antidepressant
- firebot 5mo agoA small dose of DXM boosts the effectiveness of Wellbutrin by 10x or so. It's not an antidepressant itself. It's a dissociative and cough suppressant.
- Trasmatta 5mo agoThis is incorrect. DXM is the active ingredient in Auvelity. Bupropion is included because it inhibits the enzyme that breaks down DXM quickly. The bupropion boosts the effectiveness of DXM as the primary antidepressant, NOT the other way around like you're suggesting.
- tastyfreeze 5mo agoReally difficult to find a cough syrup with only high amounts of DXM and nothing else. All the brands changed their recipes in the late 90s.
- jrflowers 5mo agoThey just sell DXM in softgels and tablets now Edit: apparently that’s not true. There’s a brand of DXM-only syrup called Robocough now. What a ridiculous name for a Legitimate Cough Medicine
- panflute 5mo ago
- temp0826 5mo agoWhat? These two substances aren't even in the same ballpark.
- panflute 5mo agoMaybe I have a liberal view of ballpark sizes but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine "The action of ibogaine at the κ-opioid receptor may indeed contribute significantly to the psychoactive effects attributed to ibogaine ingestion; Salvia divinorum, another plant recognized for its strong hallucinogenic properties contains the chemical salvinorin A, which is a highly selective κ-opioid agonist"
- dacops 5mo agoOnly veterans? I wonder about the editorial choice to use veterans rather than, say, women who have PTSD from assaults, which is a much larger group of people. (Approximately 4% of US men and 8% of US women experience PTSD every year across all reasons like accidents, sexual assaults, combat, etc.) Presumably this treatment would help everyone? Or is it somehow supporting only vets?
- vasco 5mo agoVets kill themselves a lot so I guess it's easier to propose crazier stuff because the alternative is very bad.
- trio8453 5mo agoVeterans also make it easier to get wider political support for legalizing the treatment.
- AndrewKemendo 5mo agoThough notably never anything really crazy like “let’s stop doing war”
- JCTheDenthog 5mo agoI mean, that does sound pretty crazy. Specific wars are often ill-advised or largely pointless, but "stop doing war" presupposes that all other countries in the world will also "stop doing war", otherwise what you're suggesting is just unilateral surrender under the guise of stopping war.
- AndrewKemendo 5mo agoHey if that’s the world you wanna live in then continue to do what you’re doing
- constantius 5mo agoYou're strawmanning I think. My interpretation of the parent comment is: Americans should stop aggressing other countries, slaughtering the population, and then publishing scientific breakthroughs on treating ptsd among the killers. I'd say the comment says nothing about wars of survival, which is not what veterans have ptsd for. No one is 'doing war' at America.
- neonnoodle 5mo agoWhile I’m broadly open to research on the therapeutic applications of these drugs, right now the landscape is perilous because of the combination of illegal status and a spike in “wellness” pseudoscience. Outside of the few supervised, IBR-approved studies there is a world of (for lack of a better term) therapeutic cults that prey on some of the most psychologically vulnerable people. (related 2023 article: https://www.wired.com/story/psychedelic-therapy-mess/ https://www.wired.com/story/psychedelic-therapy-mess/)
- H8crilA 5mo agoI always wonder why ECT doesn't get more press. It very very often works on depression (and bipolar disorder, catatonia; anything affective-related really), although the effects may wane over time when the treatment is discontinued. Memory loss is one of the side effects, and it could actually be beneficial here.
- butvacuum 5mo agoBecause ECT is whitewashed shock therapy, which in turn- is a whitewashed lobotomy.
- orionsbelt 5mo agoWhat about transcranial magnetic stimulation?
- H8crilA 5mo agoI suggest you read some publications on the topic, and not internet forum conspiracies.
- butvacuum 5mo agoSorry if I find that things like https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39804212/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39804212/ existing in checks 2025 repulsive. Especially when those are the same arguments put forward for lobotomies. If somebody is capable of _ELECTING_ ECT, fine. But don't pretend that dosing somebody unconcious with benzos so they Can't seize, and reducing shock duration and intensity so theres no skin burning makes intentionaly brain damaging somebody to fit in with society any less horifying. If you don't like that example- theres plenty more for things like dementia among the elderly. Especially if they're in a retirement facility. As for TCMS? It works- if you can find a place that's not a farm.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- mawadev 5mo agoDoes it really help or are they just too dissociated after taking it
- justonceokay 5mo agoAs someone who takes antidepressants this is nonsensical to me. I don’t feel 100% normal on an SSRI, I experience the normal side-effects of flat affect and weird tastes, etc. But the alternative is regular panic, exhaustion, indigestion, and general volatility that makes my life difficult and hard for others to interact with me. If dissociation is better than regular PTSD, then go for it. We don’t expect people with hip replacements to have 100% mobility. We don’t expect cochlear implants to hear better than healthy ears. Mental health interventions have similar tradeoffs.
- iv4122 5mo agoExactly this - I don't believe that it's meant to be a "you're now completely fixed" type of solution, but it does seem like it would increase quality of life as it is meant to. Similar to SSRIs.
- the__alchemist 5mo agoThis is, I am assuming from the context, not opporating under the assumption PTSD often is rooted in brain damage from exposure to shockwaves.
- make3 5mo agono one thinks "shell shocked" is real anymore, and afaik it wasn't ever supported by task science. it's just super intense trauma response
- esseph 5mo agoPTSD doesn't have anything to do with brain damage. PTSD is a trauma response. Are you thinking of TBI? TBI is a cumulative impact of small and large head trauma.
- the__alchemist 5mo agoNope - I mean PTSD. there is a growing body of evidence that PTSD may be caused (In many of most or the diagnosed cases) by concussions causing brain damage. This manifests from either enemy munitions, or the shock wave from your own artillery, explosives, or large-caliber weapons. The WWI name of "shell shock" describing the same phenomenon was probably more accurate than "PTSD".
- esseph 5mo agoWhat in the world are you talking about? There are 0 requirements for head trauma with PTSD, it's a stress response. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the top tier, evidence based treatment for PTSD. 60-80% can actually lose their PTSD diagnosis through CBT in some studies. I'm not saying CBT is the magic cure, but it's very helpful for retraining the body's fight or flight response. For TBI, there is not really any amount of CBT that can impact it due to the physical changes in the brain. This is why things like ibogaine and psilocybin are encouraging, because they seem to be causing neurogenesis. I'm somebody that has spent my life dealing with both of these issues through combat sports and military combat. It's something I stay on top of.
- zephen 5mo agoIbogaine may or may not work. Iocane powder usually effects a complete cure.
- pgt 5mo agoIocaine powder is a fictional, odorless, and tasteless poison from The Princess Bride.
- sriacha 5mo agoAnother very interesting possible benefit of ibogaine not mentioned in the article is potential for treating TBI. from https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41883580/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41883580/: >Longitudinal analyses assessed cortical thickness, subcortical volume, and predicted brain age (pBA), estimated from T1 scans. pBA was significantly reduced at 1 month relative to baseline (-1.3 years). Cortical thickness analysis revealed post-treatment increases in 11 regions. Subcortical analyses revealed significant volumetric expansion in 8 regions. Magnesium-ibogaine therapy was associated with increased cortical thickness, subcortical expansion, and reduced pBA at 1 month.
- Aurornis 5mo agoOpen-label study, no control group, and ibogaine was not the only compound administered. Any study like this is nearly useless without a control group, unfortunately. There is no way to tell if the treatment caused the changes or if they naturally occurred over the study period.
- KolibriFly 5mo agoIt feels promising, but also exactly the kind of treatment that should move through careful clinical trials
- adaptbrian 5mo ago[flagged]
- estearum 5mo agoGo ahead and run your randomized clinical trials and report back. The healthcare community would be thrilled to find out – with certainty – that your interventions work.
- adaptbrian 5mo agoI'm working on it, I have to find someone who's not after the money and is well endowned. As no one really benefits other than the patient and we know what drives innovation in this space.
- adaptbrian 5mo agohttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24905167/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24905167/ https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2023.1259473/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/1... https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/nutrition/articles/10.3389/fnut.2024.1342787/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/nutrition/articles/10.3... CBT is on the VA PTSD page.
- reenorap 5mo agoThe article acts like ibogaine is a newly discovered drug. This is an old hallucinagenix drug that has helped thousands of people get over ptsd. The only thing holding this back is government bureaucracy and red tape. I’m happy that people will get there chance to benefit from this after decades of stupid government policy.
- kreyenborgi 5mo ago> red tape Just frame it as "this drug lets you send scarred soldiers right back into the fray for pennies" and see that red tape dissolve
- TuringNYC 5mo agohttps://www.imdb.com/title/tt7008682/?ref_=nm_flmg_job_1_accord_2_cdt_t_11 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7008682/?ref_=nm_flmg_job_1_acc...
- Aurornis 5mo ago> The only thing holding this back is government bureaucracy and red tape. Not really true. There have been clinical trials for Ibogaine over the years in the US and abroad. The United States isn’t the only country capable of running trials. A big blocker for ibogaine is that it’s cardiotoxic. Multiple deaths have occurred within clinical trials for ibogaine. It’s really hard to justify and get approval for additional clinical trials for a drug that has caused deaths even in small trials. There are analogs of ibogaine being studied, too. These are designed to lack the cardiac properties of ibogaine and would hold much more promise. There’s a real problem of mistrust with “artificial chemicals” that causes this to be ignored while ibogaine gets the attention. I suppose that’s to be expected with politicians driving research.
- Projectiboga 5mo agoThose deaths were clustered in an earlier time frame. Standard practice now is to monitor cardiac symptoms and administer IV Magnesium and sometimes Phosphorus to nudge the heart rate back to stability.
- Aurornis 5mo agoAn important warning: Ibogaine has been associated with a considerable number of deaths. Some of the deaths even occurred within the context of clinical trials, under medical supervision. Ibogaine has some chemical properties that are highly undesirable for medication because it directly interacts with the cardiac system as a side effect. It is actually an old drug with a long history of being tried for different conditions and was once even marketed commercially in some countries. It goes through cycles where news stories are written about how it might be a treatment for problems which inspires some people to seek it out, but I strongly caution people not to do this. If you try one of the ibogaine clinics you may not even been given real ibogaine, and if you do you’re playing a dangerous game. Anecdotally: I’ve known a couple acquaintances and their friends who tried ibogaine for different reasons. Among them, there was a 100% rate of feeling convinced it solved their problems in the weeks following their experience. There was a 0% rate of actual improvement in the problems after weeks to months. I think it’s good that this is being researched, but the claimed curative powers of the drug have also become enhanced through the mythology and mystery around it.
- cog-flex 5mo agoPlease provide a source for your claim that deaths have occurred in clinical trials under medical supervision.
- Aurornis 5mo agohttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35012793/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35012793/ I’m sure someone will find some reason to dismiss or excuse these deaths, as anyone who brings up the negatives of psychedelics is usually shouted down on this site. The cardiotoxic effects of ibogaine are well known, though. This is why analogs without the cardiotoxic effect are an active area of study. Of all of the incredible claims about ibogaine in this thread it’s sad that the only one where sources are being demanded is for the high risk of death, which even among ibogaine communities is well known.
- hekkle 5mo ago
- cbonanno 5mo agoI’m sorry, but people really need to understand how these drugs “treat addiction“. ibogaine acts on an opioid receptor. So all you’re doing is changing one opiate for another. It acts on the KOR receptors instead of the MOR receptor, which most openly act on. But it’s not like you’re going to be cured from opioid addiction. You’re just replacing one opioid with another that doesn’t affect the respiratory system.
- Jarwain 5mo agoYou say this like "oh it's just acts on a different kind of opiod receptor" means that it's not meaningfully different. Your comment also seems to imply that this treatment involves consuming ibogaine habitually or regularly The protocol for ibogaine treatment, according to the article and the experiments being done, do not have this requirement. Like other treatments involving psychedelics and hallucinogens, the protocol here is that a one-off treatment, a single dose, results in meaningful improvements in both addictive behaviors and PTSD symptoms a month later and potentially longer This is not the same as something like methadone or naltrexone, which _are_ what you describe: replacing a more harmful opiate with a less harmful one.
- cbonanno 5mo agoThe effect could be totally psychosomatic, that’s the thing we don’t know at this point. The fact is that noribogaine acts on the my opioid receptor, regardless.
- Projectiboga 5mo agoActually it purges a small amount of brain cells deep in the center of the brain, that handles automatic movement. It also seeds a bunch of cofactors stimulating nerve growth factors and that area then regrows back with less of the addiction hardwired. It also helps to prop up the mood for a couple of months to give the person a chance to get going in another direction.
- cbonanno 5mo agoDo you have something that can lead me a direction of research on this? Because I’m not finding anything.
- steele 5mo agoRoe Jogan, senior pharma correspondent at the BBC
- kotaKat 5mo agoComing soon to the gas station pharmacy near you.
- abbassix 5mo agoWe are close to treating PTSD of people who we sent to massacre other people, and we justified their massacre as heroic act. Great achievement for humanity!
- jaapz 5mo agoIt's not just veterans who have PTSD.
- LoganDark 5mo agoThe article is about veterans.
- broken-kebab 5mo agoOr it can be: people who went to protect us, and as it's an act which often requires serious sacrifice we praise them. And in any case treating PTSD is good in general.
- N_Lens 5mo agoAh the old “The bombing of brown/asian people is to PROTECT us” chestnut!
- broken-kebab 5mo agoSuch a knee-jerk answer. Can you imagine we are not all Americans on this website? Also, I dare to suggest, imagine not everything is about race.
- LoganDark 5mo ago> Some research suggests that chemistry is all that is needed – that the intense psychedelic experiences may not even be necessary for ibogaine's healing effects. > [...] Building on such research, some startups are working on drugs that mimic therapeutic effects without the hallucinations. I understand not everyone wants the hallucinations, but man, scientists are just no fun sometimes.
- disgruntledphd2 5mo agoReminds me of all of the attempts to produce speed analogs without the speed for weight loss. Unfortunately it appears that the speedy effects are what drive the weight loss.
- cindyllm 5mo ago[dead]
- 486sx33 5mo ago[dead]
- dopesoap 5mo ago[dead]
- retrochameleon 5mo agoThis recent focus on ibogaine is annoying when we have previous promising success with what I understand to be low risk side effects in a controlled environment using substances like ketamine and MDMA. I've never seen something in other well known psychedelics to compare to the health issues I've seen associated with ibogaine, so who is benefitting from us putting all this attention on it now?