10 ms·

BYD overtakes Tesla and Kia as the best-selling EV brand in key overseas markets

• Mashimo 6mo ago
  > With over 7% market share, BYD is now the top-selling EV brand in the UK so far in 2026 But worldwide it has been for a while, no? I think total EV cars sold in 2025 BYD was top, if I remember correctly.
  • testing22321 6mo ago
    I think Tesla just beat them on pure EV because BYD sell a lot of hybrids too.
• hdhdhsjsbdh 6mo ago
  BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion. It’s just one example among many of China charting the way forward and innovating while the US recedes further into backward-looking, protectionist policy. See: US politicians on both sides trying to ban BYD imports rather than incentivizing stiffer competition from US automakers. Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. But anyone paying attention can quite clearly see that China is winning and the US is sacrificing their global superiority at the altar of fear, ignorance, and religious nationalism.
  • colechristensen 6mo ago
    Tesla would be considerably more popular globally if Elon kept his political opinions to himself and exaggerated capabilities and timelines a bit less.
  • PessimalDecimal 6mo ago
    In what world is China less "protectionist" than the US?
    • EA-3167 6mo ago
      In the world of Chinese media I suppose? To me this all looks like the same hand-wringing angst we went through in the 1980’s with the industrialization of Japan bearing massive fruit. Right down to the shaky real estate markets.
      • landryraccoon 6mo ago
        China has surpassed the US in total energy generation, and the gap is growing in their favor every year. Japan never surpassed the US in power or industrial output. China is different. They’ve clearly surpassed the US in some key areas.
        • EA-3167 6mo ago
          I would certainly expect a country with 4x the population of the US, which is used as the center of global manufacturing, to need a lot of power. I’m not sure that’s something that anyone should be concerned about from a geopolitical point of view. Likewise expecting Japan to have ever done the same is… silly.
          • TitaRusell 6mo ago
            [flagged]
          • esafak 6mo ago
            You're not concerned about the biggest army in the world flexing its muscles?
            • EA-3167 6mo ago
              If the size of an army represented a reliable measure of its ability to project power, we’d all be trembling at the might of North Korea.
  • TulliusCicero 6mo ago
    I don't mind restricting Chinese imports in principle, since China is well known to be very protectionist, moreso than Western countries for sure. Trade needs to be a two way street. That said, it is indeed disappointing that we can't get their affordable EVs over here. Western legacy automakers really need a kick in the ass (especially since Tesla seems to just be phoning it in now).
    • atonse 6mo ago
      With EVs, Tesla's the only one in the US not phoning it in. I used to think they were until I got a new Model Y Juniper. I don't count Rivian or Lucid until they actually have even somewhat affordable EVs. But pretty much everyone else in the US is doing a piss poor job with EVs and just don't seem to care at all. Ford seemed to have lost interest in the F-150 lightning. I agree that trade needs to be a two way street. But I'm not convinced yet on "affordable" since these might be severely subsidized by the Chinese Gov to undermine domestic car makers across different nations. I say might only because I'm not 100% sure.
      • testing22321 6mo ago
        > Ford seemed to have lost interest in the F-150 lightning. It’s cancelled. So is the Chev Silverado EV.
        • 1234letshaveatw 6mo ago
          The Chevy is not. A refresh was delayed
      • RavingGoat 6mo ago
        EV trucks don't work yet. The technology isn't there yet in this country. You can't tow.
        • bluGill 6mo ago
          You can tow. However you can't reasonably tow for any distance. You can probably even tow for most trips - but you will spend 1/3rd of the trip or more sitting at a fast charger in the best case (and in many cases the only charger is a level 2 chargers so many hours at the charger for every 1 driving)
  • baq 6mo ago
    BYD has pretty amazing tech to be honest, but putting protectionism as an argument against the US and pro BYD in the same sentence is naive at best. The CCP allowed BYD to exist and the CCP can end BYD in a single weekend regardless of any human right concerns elsewhere.
    • dhosek 6mo ago
      I may end up living outside the US next year (was going to be this year but it’s been postponed) and when I was investigating auto options, I’ve been severely tempted by the BYD Seal as a replacement for my Prius. All the reviews I’ve found have been positive and while I’m not a big fan of the compromises made in the display mount for the useless automatic rotation feature, it’s quite tempting. I’m torn between just getting a new Prius or spending an additional 8K for the Seal. I don’t know that I’ll drive enough for the difference in cost to add up (or, for that matter, to justify buying a car at all, but that’s a question for a different day), but I really like the idea of not contributing to the pollution in the urban area I’d be living. Option C would be the plugin hybrid version of the Seal which would be cheaper than the Prius.
      • soperj 6mo ago
        Where outside the US? You might be fine with just a bike and transit.
        • dhosek 6mo ago
          Mexico City. The big gotcha is that I have two kids and an ex-wife who will be living a few miles away so there will be 1–4 times per week that I’ll need to manage their transport between homes. The kids are the main reason I own a car now.
    • lostlogin 6mo ago
      > the CCP can end BYD in a single weekend Seeing the way tech companies behave makes me think they fear Trump the same way. for example, Tim Apple certainly crawls up Trumps arse.
  • throwaway_7274 6mo ago
    I was glued to the window while flying over southern China recently. There is so much infrastructure you can see from the air, even in fairly rural provinces. So many bridges. So many wind turbines. It is visibly a country on the move, a country that believes in itself and its ability to do things. The Chinese Century is increasingly palpable, for better or worse.
    • threethirtytwo 6mo ago
      A Chinese person who was here in the US as a foreign student once commented to me that he was so surprised that the United States was like the country side. He didn’t realize how rural the country was. This was at UCLA which is in LA which is the second biggest city in the US.
      • leereeves 6mo ago
        Presumably referring to population density? People like the low density in California.
      • klodolph 6mo ago
        People are also surprised how rural much of China is.
        • jimbob45 6mo ago
          https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/origin.png Posting the map in case anyone hasn’t seen it.
          • monocasa 6mo ago
            To be fair, six percent is still 84 million people.
          • 10xDev 6mo ago
            Russia, US, Australia, Canada are all like this. Probably many more. The world is a very small place when you look at where most people actually live.
  • testing22321 6mo ago
    Even more so with public transport. In 2008 China had 1,300km of high speed rail. In 2025 they had over 45,000km. Meanwhile America has zero…. But is bringing back the V8! Ye-haw!
    • b40d-48b2-979e 6mo ago
      /insert star wars anakin and padme meme Surely with the cost of fuel skyrocketing we'll pivot to public transit and non-fossil-fuel transport, right? Right?
  • catigula 6mo ago
    >innovating Right. Refining already invented things is 'innovation'.
    • adgjlsfhk1 6mo ago
      that's what most innovation is. the model T wasn't the first car. it was the car that was sufficiently refined to take over.
      • catigula 6mo ago
        We have very different definitions of innovation. Respondants: Please, stop lying on the internet. It's not healthy. Stop making things up. Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation Making cars faster or cheaper isn't an "innovation". Making a flying car is innovation. Inventing the car is invention. Systematic government-aided intellectual property theft, lax labor laws, low wages and low standards of living aren't innovative.
        • happosai 6mo ago
          The word you are looking for is "invention". Innovation instead means exactly refining and improving existing things.
        • deleted 6mo ago
          [deleted]
        • cpursley 6mo ago
          Your understanding of the situation is over a decade out of date. The Chinese are outright innovating at this point, they are well past the copy-paste stage. If you'd like to catch up, this is a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy/videos https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy/videos And btw, they are making flying cars as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBp96YGStIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBp96YGStIQ
          • 6mo ago
  • cyanydeez 6mo ago
    It's like what happened in the 80's with japanese cars. Except, America's poised to become a oligarchy and will absolute just punch itself in the face rather than let the oligarchy suffer.
  • Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
    > Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. Coal is still the majority of generation capacity [1] in China and China continues to build a lot more coal [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_in_China [2]: https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-solar-climate-carbon-emissions-242abe76eb69f5a362e977de74ff3254 https://apnews.com/article/china-coal-solar-climate-carbon-e... > BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion Is this supposed to help virality or something? "US decline"?
    • snapcaster 6mo ago
      As an american i feel it. have you ever visited China? it's sad man, in more and more industries america is only able to compete by banning china from even contesting the market Not just on dumping or price, actual product quality, innovation and value. It's impossible to visit a Huawei store in Beijing and not feel it in your bones
      • Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
        > As an american i feel it How do we have a productive discussion about our feelings on a tech site?
        • surgical_fire 6mo ago
          You start with a non-sequitur on China using coal to generate electricity. Because that, too, is feelings. In this case, insecurity.
          • Karrot_Kream 6mo ago
            > Another example: massive growth in Chinese renewables while the US opens up national parks for drilling and cancels solar/wind projects. You occasionally see a heartwarming post: “California adds solar panels over a canal” and it just looks cute and kind of sad compared to the massive, ambitious, and technologically superior build out of Chinese renewables. EDIT: thanks I didn't realize I forgot to add the context of my original reply to the post. Edited it to add context.
  • 1234letshaveatw 6mo ago
    Sounds like wishful and biased thinking, but enjoy your updoots
  • whatever1 6mo ago
    No to me it just shows 2 different capital allocation strategies. China picked manufacturing. US picked datacenters.
    • mohamedkoubaa 6mo ago
      And yet we will do worse in both categories
    • vkou 6mo ago
      If 90% of the data centers in the world were hit by a nuclear bomb tomorrow, communication would be a shit show for a month or two, and then go on, as we'd fall back to simpler, less compute-expensive solutions. We'd also probably be net better off without all the adtech crap. If 90% of the factories in the world were hit by a nuclear bomb, you'd find that your standard of living would immediately, and quite observably plummet. You tell me which is more important. The amount of internet technocrap we actually need to live comfortably is a tiny fraction of what actually gets built. Most of it is in service of adtech, the surveillance state, or shaving 0.5% off some rentseeker's fat margins (on his side, the savings aren't passed on to us).
      • notahacker 6mo ago
        Whilst manufacturing has more practical value than much of what's in datacentres[1] it doesn't necessarily follow that it's the more valuable strategic play or route to long term economic growth (bubble or no bubble) Food is more critical to us than Alibaba crap or even top notch smartphones and would be missed rather more if we had a nuclear exchange, but Chinese entrepreneurs would rather own factories exporting manufactured goods than rice paddies, and for good reason. The Chinese government would like to be self sufficient with food production, but unlike many less technologically developed countries it isn't. Most of those countries stay poor though. Food doesn't change or scale as much as manufacturing, which possibly doesn't change as fast or scale as big as compute. Plus in theory at least, some of the compute is being devoted to automating away dependency on offshore labour for manufacturing, although I suspect China is generally ahead in the manufacturing automation areas of AI anyway... [1]I'd rather have kitchen appliances than novelty image generation, spamblogs or ad retargeting, but then again I'd also rather have access to knowledge and communications than plastic toys...
  • aesch 6mo ago
    It seems like BYD is a much bigger threat to Europe (specifically Germany) and Japan. The auto industry is big in the US but an insignificant amount of total exports. Germany and Japan could both lose their cash cows if the Chinese auto industry dominates international sales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_e...
    • beardyw 6mo ago
      That's not really like with like. If you divided the states in USA into countries, their sales would be "international". The designation is misleading.
      • aesch 6mo ago
        The main point is that BYD is an existential threat to Germany and Japan. Per Wikipedia (List of countries by exports + List of countries by vehicle exports, latest available data): - US: ~$144B vehicle exports / ~$3.23T total exports → ~4.5% - Germany: ~$280B / ~$1.99T → ~14% - Japan: ~$151B / ~$922B → ~16% Even if you treat US states as separate 'countries' and balloon the US export denominator further, the ratio doesn't move into the same league. Autos are roughly 3x more important to Germany and ~3.5x more important to Japan as a share of foreign-earned revenue than they are to the US. BYD taking the US auto export share is an inconvenience for a few states. BYD taking Germany's or Japan's is regime-altering for the whole national economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicle_e... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports
  • threethirtytwo 6mo ago
    Another thing overtaking the US is average IQ scores. Both in the current baseline and in rate of change. US has been declining, China has been increasing. > This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. To be very practical here… the lack of rights and freedoms as they exist in China typically has no consequence to the lives of individual people. For example you have no right to protest. But how many of us have exercised that right in the US? Personally I never did. And honestly those protests end up being just parties and parades
    • bluGill 6mo ago
      I write my congressman every few months about something. Sometimes just to send a form letter that one of the various organizations writes for me. I also vote regularly. You should too.
      • threethirtytwo 6mo ago
        futile attempts at change. All your work logically amounts to know measurable difference in change. Imagine the counter factual if you didn't vote or write letters. Nothing changes. Your actions are irrational in nature and that is the tragedy of the commons. Additionally because your actions are irrational, the majority of people don't actually exercise the rights you exercise. That again is the tragedy of the commons. So in short I'm still right, and you've proven nothing.
    • tptacek 6mo ago
      I see claims like this all the time on HN. Where is this data supposed to be coming from? When I look it up on Google, I get data ultimately sourced from shady online IQ tests (which nonetheless purport to provide a monotonic ranking of every country in the world from China to Nauru, despite the fact that virtually none of these countries collect IQ scores from their populations). I have no reason to doubt that China is modernizing and improving their gross aptitude for knowledge work! The directional point you're making may very well be valid! I'm just wondering how anyone could be quantifying it in terms of "average IQ", a metric that generally does not exist.
  • Bombthecat 6mo ago
    BYD has to me become an icon of German decline vs Chinese expansion. My view. I was looking at a new car. Went into several car shops, VW, Skoda, Toyota and BYD. And all of them were basically empty and BYD was FULL! Like really really full. And the sales guy confirmed it, they are selling cars like crazy.
    • electriclove 6mo ago
      Which country was this in?
      • titanomachy 6mo ago
        Must be EU somewhere, never seen a Skoda anywhere else.
        • michaelhoney 6mo ago
          they're reasonably popular in Australia. They have done a good job of marketing their station wagons/estates to the road-biking community
          • Bombthecat 6mo ago
            The enyaq / elroq is a crazy good car for your money
        • tmnvix 6mo ago
          Plenty in NZ. The police use the wagon. They used to use GM/Holden vehicles but at some point they became the worse choice (reduced headroom in the rear seats amongst other reasons).
      • Bombthecat 6mo ago
        Well.. Germany :)
        • electriclove 6mo ago
  • jancsika 6mo ago
    > This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. Just curious-- if you did say something about this, what would it be?
  • weirdmantis69 6mo ago
    lmao. "religious nationalism"? What are you referring to here? The USA's new tighter immigration standards? What pray tell is China's immigration policy? Ignorance? Are you referring to perhaps San Francisco progressives eliminating enhanced schooling because it makes some students feel bad about themselves? https://www.educationnext.org/san-franciscos-detracking-experiment/ https://www.educationnext.org/san-franciscos-detracking-expe... Fear? Oh I know, you are talking about how in blue states they can't even build simple housing never mind mega projects like high speed rail and that's why red states are acquiring population and capital at accelerating speeds. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/why-nothing-works-marc-dunkelman/681407/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/why-nothin...
    • mghackerlady 6mo ago
      those mega projects are almost always killed by republicans. also, listen to the rhetoric around christianity in republican circles and tell me it isn't religious nationalism
      • foobar1274278 6mo ago
        Ah yes, like those dang ol no good reds in single party California, sabotaging their high speed rail project for the past 20 years. 14 billion in the hole and not a single mile of track.
        • mghackerlady 6mo ago
          that was sabotaged by musks hyperloop
  • WarmWash 6mo ago
    The problem the US has, at least in this area, is that it's manufacturing is in the dumps and that's not even plainly bad thing. No US born child in the last 30 years aspired to working a factory job. The US is an advanced economy with advanced jobs. We get degrees, we sit at desks, maybe even sit at home, work on computers, and generate an order of magnitude more wealth than our screw turning counterpart overseas. I can tell you with first hand experience, that this problem is much deeper than "the US needs to catch up" because in reality what is happening is that China is the one playing catch up. The US is already 30 years into the endgame of economic development. China is where the US was 75 years ago, and on paper, the US has only progressed from that point.
    • elAhmo 6mo ago
      > China is where the US was 75 years ago Quite a wild claim
      • WarmWash 6mo ago
        It's the progression of countries from agriculture economies to service economies. 1950's US was a manufacturing powerhouse with almost entirely in house supply chains and with heavy public infrastructure drives, not at all unlike China today. But trust me, all those people working in poor conditions for cheap pay in China will do everything they can to ensure their kids don't work those jobs. And just like the US, that fountain of cheap labor will go away and everyone will want their comfy high paying desk job.
        • elAhmo 6mo ago
          A country is more than just its manufacturing industry.
    • thewebguyd 6mo ago
      > We get degrees, we sit at desks, maybe even sit at home, work on computers, and generate an order of magnitude more wealth than our screw turning counterpart overseas Generate wealth for whom, though? That's also ignoring the entire economic underclass that system creates of service & gig workers that can no longer afford to live in the cities in which they work. Not everyone has the ability or desire for knowledge work. The US still needs to catch up too. We have an infrastructure problem. Where is our high speed rail and public transit? Cycling infrastructure? Renewables? Housing in high demand areas? Socialized healthcare? Safety nets for said economic underclass? We are behind in so many ways because we view wealth generation for the top xy% as the only metric of success.
  • zitterbewegung 6mo ago
    38.9% of BYDs direct profits are from subsidies. Tesla subsidies expired already… if we are going to judge on equal footing China is subsidizing a much bigger part of BYDs sales.
    • SapporoChris 6mo ago
      From my understanding China did have subsidies for EVs but that expired last year. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-excludes-evs-latest-five-year-plan-industry-grapples-with-oversupply-2025-10-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-...
    • 7734128 6mo ago
      Really? I think 38.9% of statistics without sources are made up.
  • Squarex 6mo ago
    And even more an icon of european irrelevance. In Prague almost all EVs are Teslas. I see a BYD time to time. Škoda or Volkswagen almost never.
    • usrnm 6mo ago
      In the Netherlands I see plenty of Renault 5s or VW IDs, many Teslas, too. And almost no BYD
    • sofixa 6mo ago
      As a counterpoint, around 1/3 of EVs I see in France are Renaults. SImilar story, but a bit less evident, in Spain. Both have decent amounts of Hyundai Ioniqs, Teslas, and some BYDs and Dacias. But especially in France, Renault Meganes, 5s and now the 4 is everywhere. Don't forget that "Europe" is actually 30ish (if you count EU) or even more countries (if you count the continent), with wildly different markets and players on them.
      • Squarex 6mo ago
        Sure, it could be that in Czechia most EVs owners are still tech fans and they choose Tesla. BYD expands to the EU from the east, so it may overrepresentated here. Škoda apparently has decent electric sales in the Vokswagen group. Just anecdotally something like 80% EVs I see are Teslas.
    • unclejuan 6mo ago
      No wonder, VAG has only produced overpriced cars for a while... I recently helped a friend looking for a brand new SUV in the 70-80,000 euro range (taxes included) and the audi Q5 was both the most expensive and the worst built one in that price range. We checked loads of cars and agreed that the volvo XC60 was arguably the best value for money, the BMW X3 was the one which drove the best (but also the most uncomfortable), the Lexus NX450h was the most comfortable and the best built, the Mercedes GLC was probably the most balanced one (although the value for money wasn't great). The Audi Q5 only stood out for poor build quality and being overpriced. It's literally the only car which we didn't see an upside for, we didn't even bother to test-drive it... Also it seems they aren't very reliable anymore...
  • strictnein 6mo ago
    That's certainly a take. China just has this decades long history of targeting foreign industries, flooding the market with that product, and then being the only one left standing. The idea that we should allow cheap vehicles to flood the domestic market because that will "cause the US auto manufacturers compete" ignores the wholly uneven playing field at work here, and the government backed goal of one side. Just the cost of labor alone makes that not an approachable thing to do. On the reverse "bad" US side, we have more and more international auto manufacturers building and investing in factories in the US every year. Strangely, this decision involves billions of dollars and years of work to make happen. It's not based on internet vibes. And the "renewable" growth is really kind of misleading. They're also building more coal power plants than the rest of the earth, combined, each year. They represent ~50% of the worldwide coal power in use today and produce roughly one third of the total CO2 in the world now, almost 3x that of the US. But I guess the future is government funded undercutting of international competitors, using technology stolen by the government from those competitors, in order to destroy those competitors, while using very dirty and cheap energy to do so? Is that the lesson we're supposed to learn from them?
    • tredre3 6mo ago
      American car manufacturers have extremely small market shares outside N.A., and many (all?) of them required multiple government bailouts over the past few decades. If you think that keeping China is good for the consumer, you'll have to present a stronger case than "we must protect our companies".
      • strictnein 6mo ago
        > If you think that keeping [out] China is good for the consumer It would be excellent for the consumer, in the rather short term, to not keep them out. Cheap cars! Cheap goods flooding our markets are great for consumers in the short term. > American car manufacturers have extremely small market shares outside N.A Here's a game: One company is American. The other is not. Company 1 Market Share: North America: 16.5% South America: 8.9% Asia: 7.6% Company 2 Market Share: North America: 14.87% South America: 8.3% Asia: 8.28% Now, without looking, which is the "US company without market share outside of NA", and which is the foreign company that understands how to compete?
  • malshe 6mo ago
    I would support allowing any Chinese automaker in the US if they form a 51:49 joint venture with an American company.
    • usrnm 6mo ago
      Wait, wasn't the free market supposed to be a superior system? You cannot at the same time argue that something is better and wish you didn't have it
      • somelamer567 6mo ago
        What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Or just China just deserve special treatment?
  • stephc_int13 6mo ago
    Many predicted it for a long time, the US will always be a great power, for structural and geographical reasons, but it won't keep the position it had for almost a century. The good thing about China is that apart from Taiwan they have little territoral ambitions, I don't foresee huge conflicts incoming, but I am a not entirely sure the US will manage to lost its position as gracefully as the British Empire. It could be bad news for US citizens if their currency precipitiously lose its power, and they'll look for people to blame.
    • the_gastropod 6mo ago
      > The good thing about China is that apart from Taiwan they have little territoral ambitions One of the reasons China wants Taiwan is because it would enable further territorial expansions into The Philippines and Japan. China considers any neighboring Democratic nation a threat. Taiwan is just their first / easiest prospective target. If you have access to PBS, there's a very good documentary that touches on this a bit called Invisible Nation.
  • mschuster91 6mo ago
    > BYD has to me become an icon of US decline vs Chinese expansion. It’s just one example among many of China charting the way forward and innovating while the US recedes further into backward-looking, protectionist policy. See: US politicians on both sides trying to ban BYD imports rather than incentivizing stiffer competition from US automakers. The problem is, China isn't competing fairly! As a Western manufacturer, bound to well-paying union labor and environmental protection laws, and restricted by the mechanisms of the free markets, you cannot compete with a country that employs all sorts of labor abuses (from complete ignorance about OSHA and its national equivalents over 996 work model to outright forced labor and slavery), completely wrecks its own environment and provides virtually unlimited financial funds to its companies in its quest to achieve dominance. China is inarguably the biggest threat the entire rest of the world faces and barely anyone is even seeing the dangers.
    • tartoran 6mo ago
      How did it get here though? The west basically handed them everything on a plate and gutted the domestic industries for a quick profit. What next?
  • sourcegrift 6mo ago
    China harvests organs of muslims. China doesn't allow LGBTQ representation on public media. China forcibly married uyghur women to handle men. It's important to remember the whole global picture before we take sides.
    • FireBeyond 6mo ago
      > China doesn't allow LGBTQ representation on public media. And several US states are inching closer to making being some of those letters, particularly the T, outright illegal.
      • sourcegrift 6mo ago
        [flagged]
  • sfjailbird 6mo ago
    > This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights The U.S. record on human rights is horrific, if you see it from a global perspective (which you should). China is a saint in comparison.
  • dyauspitr 6mo ago
    It makes sense to ban BUD imports but don’t you dare try and both sides this argument by saying EV and renewable power strategy are the same on both sides.
  • tim333 6mo ago
    One thing China did which was smart was to start training thousands of engineers about twenty years ago, about 10x the number of US engineering graduates. That's paying off now. It was also a little sad to see the treatment of Tesla by Biden. It was the world's leading EV company at the time but he excluded from EV get togethers because he wanted the unionised companies like GM to win. I think that sort of thing - protecting mediocre incumbents that contribute to the right politicians didn't help. Musk was a dem at the time but after that flipped to Trump and went a bit off the rails.
    • deleted 6mo ago
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  • dzhiurgis 6mo ago
    Left in US sneer at technocrats but absolutely gobble up their products with gusto.
  • willio58 6mo ago
    In some ways it’s sad to see, but I’d be lying to say I didn’t have a little happiness seeing the actions of politicians in the U.S. catch up with them. It’s like there was this belief, we are the most powerful country in the world and we can do whatever we want. Meanwhile we see countries very much question that as we flounder in the Middle East for the umpteenth time in a few decades. We see countries start to get away from the dollar, we see countries call out our military leaders for poor planning. It’s not like the American public deserve this, but America itself might.
  • seanmcdirmid 6mo ago
    I never really expected the USA to allow low tariff Chinese car imports since China has been very protective of their own car market over the last couple of decades. I did expect BYD to set up some factories in the USA (or Canada Mexico when NAFTA was still a thing) to make their EVs for the American markets (should be affordable in a third world state like Mississippi), just like the Japanese auto manufacturers did. It’s sad that we aren’t getting that anytime soon. America has simply forgot how to build real things on a schedule and on a budget. Our only real niche now is software (with help from Indian and Chinese talent) and locked down tech that China will eventually figure out. It’s very hard to not be pessimistic about the direction the USA is going and I can see why people elected someone horrible like Trump (he promised a way out, even if it was a stupid way out that would never work).
  • baranul 6mo ago
    A key point is whether a government actually cares about its citizens and their future, which also creates a side benefit for humanity in general. It's not quite nationalism or maybe the term is being used as a disguise for something else, if those in power believe 50% or even the majority of their own population is not worth worrying about, should be "thrown away", or "removed". Out of control elitism and corruption, combined with lack of empathy and narcissism, can very easily undermine human rights, freedom, and national progress.
  • raxxorraxor 6mo ago
    BYD is successful because they are cheap. For most people cars are simple utilities. But countries either need to be protectionist or you need to lower production costs to a Chinese level. That means workers only earn the same as a Chinese worker. You could also collect import taxes, but I think people simply cannot or don't want to afford a car that is much more expensive. Some decry Chinese government subsidies for cars, but the truth is that these exist in western nations as well. They are sometimes indirect, but the end result is the same. The secret to cheap prices is simple labor costs. Commonly refereed to as race to the bottom and not a new topic/problem. Car makers in countries with high labor costs could maybe pivot to luxury cars... otherwise the result of the competition is already determined. In 50 years China will have the same problem with other countries that produce even cheaper. That is already happening and for quite a few years already. Taxes would probably be the best solution, but they have become politicised and weaponised.
  • Yizahi 6mo ago
    Oh, don't worry. I'm sure Mr. Stable Orange will follow the tradition and institute a Capybara tax soon, forbidding import of any foreign EV smaller than 2 meters wide and 7 meters long and having a fully enclosed body. That will show those libruls :) .
• Pfhortune 6mo ago
  Would be great if we could buy/drive these in the US. Funny how we have a "free market" only when it is convenient for certain interests...
  • TulliusCicero 6mo ago
    I agree that that would be great as a consumer, but given how protectionist China is, you can hardly blame countries for responding in kind. Trade should be a two way street.
    • sampton 6mo ago
      Doesn't Tesla have a factory in China?
      • SpicyLemonZest 6mo ago
        They do. The Chinese government gave them a special exemption, presumably because they wanted to build EV manufacturing expertise. Other foreign auto companies are not allowed to open their own factories in China; they have to do a joint venture with a local manufacturer.
        • Barbing 6mo ago
          >presumably because they wanted to build EV manufacturing expertise Worked with Apple!
          • deleted 6mo ago
            [deleted]
      • NickC25 6mo ago
        They do. Because Elon is proving himself to be quite an idiot. China was more than happy to welcome him in, and have him teach them how to build an EV. They simply copied what they could and improved on it. "The communists will happily sell the capitalists the rope the capitalists hang themselves with"
• bb123 6mo ago
  [dead]
• unpopularopp 6mo ago
  My SO bought an Ioniq 6 mostly because of the buttons and the seperate control surface for AC and such but they test drived a BYD as well which was the same as a Tesla, just one huge tablet and endless menus
• prism56 6mo ago
  Ive seen soo many BYD cars in the UK in the last year. I'm not in the market for a new car, but anyone who has looked recently what is the draw to BYD? Is it strictly value/price?
  • throwa356262 6mo ago
    Yes, they are (were) significantly cheaper than similar western cars. Have their share of problems thought. IIRC climate control is often subpar.
  • standeven 6mo ago
    Value, performance, quality, and not being associated with Elon.
    • Barbing 6mo ago
      BY*D *except Elon’s
    • BoingBoomTschak 6mo ago
      Quality? I'm really interested into hard and extensive data about mechanical (drivetrain, suspension, brakes, etc...) engineering and quality control that would make me put them on the same level as the Japanese. Lacking that, I must hold the preemptive view that they cut corners at least as much as the average make/
  • 2dvisio 6mo ago
    Value price for us. The Sealion 7 for us had the combination of features, dimensions, range, 800v platform, for a price that was simply unbeatable (leasing). Out of question that Volvo ex90, Kia ev9, Hyundai Ioniq 9 or even the BMW ix3 would have come on top if it wasn’t for the price.
    • dzhiurgis 6mo ago
      > 800v platform Ones in NZ are 400v and tops at 150KW charging.
• sigmonsays 6mo ago
  Where/how can we buy a BYD in the US?
  • postalrat 6mo ago
    You won't get past step one: vote for political candidates who will fight for free markets.
    • knubie 6mo ago
      You really think BYD would exist in a free market?
      • postalrat 6mo ago
        China and USA can fight it out propping up BYD and Tesla instead of Norinco and Lockheed Martin.
  • burkaman 6mo ago
    You can't buy them in the US. You could buy one in Mexico and drive it across the border, but you wouldn't be able to register it in the US. It is probably possible to legally import one but it would be very expensive and time-consuming, and you'd need to know a lot about import law.
    • dangus 6mo ago
      Currently the “best” way is to wait until they’re 25 years old and import them.
    • mothballed 6mo ago
      AFAIK if its registered in Mexico it can be driven in US under temporary import permit. I've seen the odd Hilux or other new rarity that way. Quite common to see Mexico plates here in AZ in all number of cars not available for sale.
• varispeed 6mo ago
  It's a shame their cars are being devoid of its own identity. If you squint you might think it's an Audi or Range Rover. A bit like wearing Adiboss or Gacci clothes. Nothing wrong with that. Hopefully BYD will make something original and with style on its own. But counter example is e.g. new Audi look like Kia. Funny.
  • bluGill 6mo ago
    It is a car. Don't hang your personally identity on a car. Many people fail at this, but it is wrong. Or at least if you do make sure it isn't your transportation. Drive something else most of the time that you don't care about so your identity car isn't scratched. Bring the identity car to a parade with the "pork queen" or whatever.
  • mghackerlady 6mo ago
    The chinese are utilitarian but also, like anyone, care about aesthetics. Why make something that looks good enough when that isn't your main goal and the jobs already been done
  • cpursley 6mo ago
    Strange comment, look at some of the cars here - many are unique and more creative liberty than anything the West is putting out: https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy/videos https://www.youtube.com/@Wheelsboy/videos
• raverbashing 6mo ago
  BYD ships USA boomer car companies run a competition on who can build the biggest crappy SUVs around sold to other boomers who now look aghast at pump prices Europe boomer car companies can't overrun their nit-pickiness and analysis paralysis and wonder why consumers are picking the car with screens that actually work like a modern device and don't have subscription horns or some other BS like that
  • ecshafer 6mo ago
    The complacency of American, Euro and Japanese auto manufacturers as Chinese, through domestic hyper competition and protectionism. Is going to be an MBA case study on how to fumble the bag.
• TitaRusell 6mo ago
  Why should Australians or Dutch people have loyalty to foreign car industry? Who killed Holden or DAF? It wasn't BYD lol.
  • bluGill 6mo ago
    You should be loyal only to the extent that the loyalty helps some interests of yours. That is if the car industry ensures military equipment should you need it. (or alternatively you are going to war and don't want them to have the expertise that a car industry has). For those not paying attention to geopolitics, Taiwan is the real concern here. China wants to control them, and is building a strong military. How the future will play out I don't know, but this should be your concern.
    • floxy 6mo ago
      Isn't the concern with over the air updates and back-doors? As in, if the citizens in county A buy country B's cars, and now there is a tiff between the two countries, country B could potentially brick all of those vehicles in country A.
      • bluGill 6mo ago
        That is just another variation of geopolitical worry. Nobody will do this unless there is a geopolitical situation happening. If you are going to war then bricking the enemies cars is useful. Otherwise it is harmful (even if you do it accidentally you lose trust and so nobody will buy from you again - which is why so often rollouts are done slowly - if it doesn't work you only have a few customers affects and can spend more than a car's value on techs to fix them thus ensuring you don't lost reputation)
  • kazen44 6mo ago
    also, DAF was large in a very specific time in a very specific place. Let's not forget that the dutch car industry has always being dependant on german car industry.
  • somelamer567 6mo ago
• arjie 6mo ago
  Traveling in Asia and South America, the primary impression I got was not that this is a war of manufacturing that we're losing but that the game is already up. Chile was full of Chinese makes and they were all surprisingly good. Riding in a Chinese MG in Taiwan or Hong Kong you suddenly realize that this isn't a future competitor. The people talking about the war of car manufacturers here seem like those Japanese holdouts who were still fighting in 1956.
  • mekdoonggi 6mo ago
    Yeah the game is already lost. The question is how long the US can keep dumb laws that don't acknowledge reality. Unfortunately that timespan is 249 years and counting apparently.
  • cameronh90 6mo ago
    It's not "surprisingly" unless you haven't bought much in the last 20 years. China-owned brands are now often better and more premium than their Western counterparts across the entire spectrum. Give me Anker over Belkin any day. There are a few areas where the West still leads - Chinese software tends to be buggier and less polished, luxury apparel isn't at the same standard - but that lead is diminishing rapidly. Customer service could still do with some improvement: it's usually much slower and less professional, but the trade-off is it's not uncommon to end up talking to an actual engineer who can investigate and solve the problem rather than just follow a script, even at a huge company. The worst products are now formerly high quality Western brands with PE overlords that forced them to outsource manufacturing to the lowest bidder.
    • AceJohnny2 6mo ago
      > The worst products are now formerly high quality Western brands with PE overlords that forced them to outsource manufacturing to the lowest bidder. Stanley Black&Decker? https://www.worseonpurpose.com/ https://www.worseonpurpose.com/
    • gamblor956 6mo ago
      Anker was founded and is owned by an American...
• gnfargbl 6mo ago
  Is BYD beating Kia here in the UK? It's hard to tell from the SMMT figures [1] but it looks to me as if Kia sold just under twice as many vehicles as BYD. Given that so much of Kia's lineup is now BEV, I'm not sure who is winning. Tesla is doing poorly here. That's almost entirely down to Musk's public image, not because BYD make better cars. [1] https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/ https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/
  • spacedcowboy 6mo ago
    I see plenty of BYD around, but I see more Kia cars. Maybe I'm biased with my EV6 GT Line S, but I wouldn't swap it for a damn thing.
  • physicsguy 6mo ago
    I see a lot more Kia’s but I think it’s shifting because dealerships are shifting. The Toyota dealership near me now sells Jaecoo, Cherry, etc. and I am seeing tons of the Jaecoo SUV cars around. The Pentagon Vauxhall dealership I bought my car from keeps emailing me about BYDs.
• FridayoLeary 6mo ago
  This is not surprising as other manufacturers continue moving away from producing cheap cars. One notable exception is dacia. For all the China lovers here it's not a clear sign of Chinese superiority. I saw a video on youtube recently exploring BYD. It's success is due to the fact that the Chinese government as part of their plan to dominate the global car industry gives them massive amounts of money. Which manufacturer can compete with that? European tariffs in the near future looks likely. Among other things the video explores some of BYD's shadier practices including artificially inflating domestic sales and not paying suppliers for up to 9 months. I have my doubts whether their success is sustainable.
  • dangus 6mo ago
    I hear this all the time, but I would point out that US car manufacturers are heavily subsidized as well. I’m sure other countries do their own things that effectively subsidize their automotive industries as well. NAFTA and its successor keeps a lot of automotive production and assembly in North America. The chicken tax protects American manufacturers from foreign competition on trucks and vans. Tesla was started on the foundations of inexpensive loans and a “free” factory courtesy of government economic stimulus. GM was bailed out and briefly owned by the federal government, saved by below-market rate loans. Stellantis is also an organization that owes its existence on a bankruptcy bail-out package. The US financially incentivizes car usage, period. They underfund transit projects, allow the gas tax rate to lag inflation, make zoning laws that require car ownership, and more. One great way to subsidize car companies is to make car ownership mandatory. State and local governments frequently give tax incentives to major assembly plants in the name of preserving jobs for their constituents. For example, GM had a $60 million tax break to keep the Lordstown, OH plant open. Some of this was clawed back after the plant closed anyway. CAFE standards incentivize manufacturers to build SUVs that aren’t practical or popular in many other markets, essentially enshrining America-specific car design, further separating the American market from global car designs. Companies like BYD can’t compete with American cars if they don’t sell models that resemble popular choices like the Ford F-150, which are designs which would be completely insane if sold in the Chinese, Japanese, and European markets.
    • 6mo ago
• ck2 6mo ago
  steal this startup idea: you can't buy BYD in the USA (thanks to Biden actually, not current admin) BUT there's a loophole to have a car from Canada in the USA for a year so lease them from Canada to USA buyers for a year at a time
  • AlanYx 6mo ago
    It's not yet easy to buy BYD vehicles in Canada either. The first quota of 49,000 vehicles was only recently announced, and that's to be shared across all Chinese vendors.
  • anonymousab 6mo ago
    I expect that the US administration will very quickly ban these cars from being leased or resold into the US from Canada. ...if they're not banned from entering the USA altogether, which seemed to be the way the US President was leaning already.
  • dlev_pika 6mo ago
    I think that if you maintain a policy, it becomes yours too.
  • melonpan7 6mo ago
    Provided they are available in Canada. There’s only roughly 50k imports in the first year and that will be split across all Chinese manufactured EVs (not necessarily Chinese brands). I assume the majority will be Teslas from their Shanghai factory.
• HarHarVeryFunny 6mo ago
  I'm sure BYD and other Chinese EVs would dominate here too if it wasn't for tariffs. BYD UK import tariff is 10% BYD US import tariff is 100%
  • werdnapk 6mo ago
    Canada reduced theirs to 6.1% from 100% about a month ago.
    • HarHarVeryFunny 6mo ago
      I wonder what happens if someone from the US buys one in Canada and just drives it home? At what point and how do they get charged an import tariff? When they register it?
      • mort96 6mo ago
        AFAIU, import duties aren't really something you're necessarily "charged" as much as it's something you have a legal obligation to pay. Sure, maybe you could buy a car in Canada and bring it in to the US without paying the tariffs... we call that smuggling.
        • HarHarVeryFunny 6mo ago
          It's hardly smuggling if there is no process to collect the duties from you. Are you meant to walk into a random local government office and hand them a bunch of cash and say "i think i owe you this" ?! What if it's a used car, not new, what's the tariff then? I can't believe there is no process to collect it if you import it just by driving across the border.
          • mort96 6mo ago
            I don't know how the US does it, but at least where I'm from, major border crossings (be it a road or an airport or something else) typically always have a place you can go to declare goods you're importing. That's where you're typically expected to, well, declare your goods. I imagine they don't see many people just driving there and saying "Hi, I'm here to declare this car I'm in", but I don't see why it shouldn't work...
• lenerdenator 6mo ago
  Proof that if the price is right, you can look past anything.
• small_model 6mo ago
  Is volume or revenue/profit/margin etc? Quite important to know this.
• ecshafer 6mo ago
  Musk was saying at the start that Tesla was going to be $80k then scale up so they would have a $10k/20k car. It looks like BYD beat them to it. I guess putting manufacturing in China, giving them all of the tricks of the trade, letting them build consolidated supply chains, letting them iterate on every aspect of manufacturing, and automate it all was a mistake in the long run. pikachu_face.jpg
  • melonpan7 6mo ago
    Tesla severely lacks competition in the North American market. They lost all their first mover advantage by sitting back and spending significant R&D into FSD. Chinese manufacturers have some incredible innovations such as Nio’s battery swapping.
• ainiriand 6mo ago
  Here in Spain you see a lot of BYD, considerable amount for Europe. But when I was in Uruguay that was a shock, almost all cabs, all electric cars, and some buses are BYD.
  • forinti 6mo ago
    The thing that surprised me the last time I was in Uruguay (2022) was riding an ICE BYD. I had only ever seen electric BYDs. Wikipedia informs me that they stopped making ICE vehicles in 2022.
  • unclejuan 6mo ago
    There is a significant amount of BYD buses here in Spain, I don't live in Madrid but I go every now and then and I noticed a fair amount of electric BYD. Also this is anecdotal, but I live in a small province capital (<100k citizens) and the urban planning councilor told me most likely most of the new buses we're getting next year will be electric and they'll probably be either BYD or eCitaros.
• jauntywundrkind 6mo ago
  Why has BYD stock been trundling along? They seem like they are so far ahead: incredible blade batteries with ridiculous power density (fast charging)/efficiency/cooling, while being structurally useful (mad cool). And mad popular. I feel like I'm missing something that this company is doing such amazing good work but the stock isn't really moving.
  • Marsymars 6mo ago
    Well their forward P/E is double Ford or Toyota, so presumably people think that's what their profit trajectory is worth.
  • decimalenough 6mo ago
    BYD is ahead in the export game, but they're struggling in their home market, where the competition is furious and margins low.
• haxtormoogle 6mo ago
  [flagged]
• jonathanlydall 6mo ago
  I just signed an offer to purchase a BYD Sealion 5, plugin hybrid small-to-medium SUV. I’ve been largely happy with my 2018 Honda Fit and briefly researched a hybrid Fit. In ZAR, the hybrid Fit is listed as ~530K, while the BYD is 570, however the BYD is way bigger, has much nicer interior and insanely more features, including: adaptive cruise control, lane assist (it can basically drive itself for simple traffic), 360 view camera, comparatively huge screen for my Apple CarPlay, sun roof, V2L (allows 2-3kw load off the battery or engine if the battery is low). I largely liked my Honda Fit and my Ballade (that might be a South African model name), but have been annoyed for a long time at them being laggards on things like CarPlay (at least in South Africa, apparently the Fit in other markets had offered it for much longer).
  • speedgoose 6mo ago
    I was thinking why the hell someone visiting HN, so arguably curious and interested in technology, would go for a PHEV but then you mentioned South Africa.
    • jonathanlydall 6mo ago
      It advertises 52km range, which is plenty enough for us for day-to-day driving to be entirely in EV mode. I work from home and would prefer spending money on things like better school for kids, holidays, house being comfortable and as paid off as possible than on an over priced car as some sort of status symbol (it’s common for people here to choose to spend a fortune on their cars while living in small rented apartments, it’s quite financially stupid). I also believe that we pay comparatively high taxes on our motor vehicles, our location probably also means that shipping here just costs more, the Sealion 5 is ZAR 570K which is about EUR 29.6K / USD 34.8K Edit: Seems Sealion 5 price here not necessarily high compared to other countries. It might be BYD “entering the market” and thus putting less of a markup. Hyundai did that here in the early 2010s, but China is a different beast so who knows.
  • 2dvisio 6mo ago
    Own the sealion 7. It is feature full, and don’t want to crush your dreams, but i would trade that killer unreliable adaptive cruise control and lane assist with a (missing?!) simple speed limiter 100 times over
• dzonga 6mo ago
  Tesla has no moat. BYD makes better EVs & is leading in battery tech. FSD has been promised forever & not delivered. Now Musky says - for cars to have real FSD they need to be newer hardware tech. Robotaxis - Waymo is better.
  • dieselgate 6mo ago
    > BYD ... is leading in battery tech. Dang, it seemed not that long ago - 5 to 10 years - when Tesla had far superior battery tech. I know that isn't a short scale by tech standards but has BYD, and others, really leap-frogged that much? I'm not in that space myself and do not keep up with EV benchmarks but am curious what advances or other changes were made. I recall reading Ford battery technology was also very good but interpreted that to be due to general advances in EV battery technology across the board rather than any one specific make/manufacturer.
    • mort96 6mo ago
      > Dang, it seemed not that long ago - 5 to 10 years - when Tesla had far superior battery tech. It seems logical that if someone was going to surpass Tesla in battery tech, it'd be a battery company. BYD has, after all, been making batteries since its founding under the name "Shenzhen BYD Battery Company" 30 years ago.
    • decimalenough 6mo ago
      BYD is one of Tesla's battery suppliers. https://thedriven.io/2023/05/22/teslas-switch-to-byd-batteries-is-achieving-faster-charging-times/ https://thedriven.io/2023/05/22/teslas-switch-to-byd-batteri...
      • dieselgate 6mo ago
        Interesting I had no idea, thanks.
  • decimalenough 6mo ago
    BYD has its own "God's Eye" self-driving tech, and unlike Musk's pigheaded insistence on cameras only, BYD is incorporating LIDAR into their cars across the range: https://thedriven.io/2026/01/11/byds-cheapest-electric-cars-to-have-lidar-self-driving-tech/ https://thedriven.io/2026/01/11/byds-cheapest-electric-cars-...
• dlev_pika 6mo ago
  I will always wonder what Tesla could have been, hadn’t Musk gone completely off rails around the time he was presenting the cybertruck’s vision. Remember when it was pitched at 40-50k?
  • tim333 6mo ago
    It's kind of a shame.
• swframe2 6mo ago
  I saw this recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS_fJJxMjn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS_fJJxMjn4 TL;DR Byd is amazing and fatally flawed. The details are too much to place here.
  • s_dev 6mo ago
    It was a good watch but I don't think there is too much detail to put here. BYD has a lot more debt than they're claiming and their growth was subsidized by the Chinese government in order to buy market share.
    • doom2 6mo ago
      Not directly related to your comment, but I'm confused why so many people say "BYD is subsidized by the Chinese government" as some kind of gotcha for why they're "bad". The US government subsidizes farmers. Companies like Intel, Ford, and Boeing all get federal or state subsidies. Tesla's growth can in part be attributed to favorable tax credits. Should we qualify statements about how successful they are with an asterisk that they got favorable treatment from the government?
      • s_dev 6mo ago
        I didn't say they're bad. Subsidies are fine, all governments do it for their own reasons but when you receive artificial support it does beg the questions as to when and how that support will be pulled so it puts a question mark over the sustainability of whatever is being subsidised. >Should we qualify statements about how successful they are with an asterisk that they got favorable treatment from the government? Yes
• neonstatic 6mo ago
  Some amusing comments from Americans in this thread > This is to say nothing of the CCP and their record on human rights and free expression. > The Chinese Century is increasingly palpable, for better or worse. Ummm remember Guantanamo? Lol.
• Markoff 6mo ago
  similar thing happening to Samsung in China (soon also elsewhere) Samsung to exit China home appliance sales amid shrinking market share https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48045298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48045298