7 ms·

NetHack 5.0.0

527 points by rsaarelm 5mo ago

saulpw 5mo ago
> The build-time "yacc and lex"-based level compiler, the "yacc and lex"-based dungeon compiler, and the quest text file processing previously done by NetHack's "makedefs" utility, have been replaced with Lua text alternatives that are loaded and processed by the game during play. This is very likely a good choice for multiple reasons, but it's truly the end of an era. (NetHack predates Lua, which has been around since 1993.) Lex and yacc are dead, long live lex and yacc!
- anthk 5mo ago
  Lua is not on base on most distros, that's sad. Also it stops being as portable. By Amiga 68k platforms then. And maybe DOS. Also, there no official Nethack i686 builds. If I were them I'd try some micro-language from https://t3x.org https://t3x.org as a pre-processor and bundle it. The T3X0 language itself can do wonders and even be ported to DOS with ease. EDIT: ok, Lua can be portable and even they got DOS ports, this is great.
  - bhaak 5mo ago
    There are also official Amiga binaries. :) The Amiga port was resurrected just a few weeks ago. https://mastodon.social/@ipaschke@cyberplace.social/116257283774703409 https://mastodon.social/@ipaschke@cyberplace.social/11625728...
    - anthk 5mo ago
      Great; hope they can made further ports to m68k Macs and Ataris.
  - 6581 5mo ago
    > By Amiga 68k platforms then. https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-amiga.html https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-amiga.html > And maybe DOS. https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-msdos.html https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-msdos.html
  - themafia 5mo ago
    The lua 5.4 sources are less than 1 megabyte in size and are MIT licensed. You can link against it but it's just as easy to directly compile it into your application directly.
    - anthk 5mo ago
      Good, kinda like JimTCL-small then :)
  - B1FF_PSUVM 5mo ago
    > Lua is not on base on most distros, that's sad. Also it stops being as portable. Huh? Usually programs just embed a Lua interpreter, I think. Famously light.
  - trynumber9 5mo ago
    Nethack embeds Lua 5.4.8, so you don't need it installed from a distribution's package manager. As long as your system can build C99* it can build Lua. And given that Nethack 5.0.0 is C99, this dependency is not reducing portability any further. * Lua has a LUA_USE_C89 flag so it may be more portable than Nethack 5.0.0 at this point.
    - troad 5mo ago
      > LUA_USE_C89 How much functionality/performance does one lose with this flag? Genuine question, I don't know. If C89 and C99 were equally performant/functional, it would seem logical to just target C89 (since any C99 compiler should be able to compile C89 too). There must be some reason it's a flag.
      - archargelod 5mo ago
        I downloaded a Lua 5.4.8 source tarball and checked all the uses of LUA_USE_C89 (manually, without AI): luaconf.h:50-655 - windows builds always use C89 (quote: "broadly, Windows is C89") - in C99 Lua uses 'strtod' and 'sprintf' for hex number conversions. Otherwise, Lua provides its own implementation. - no math function variants with l_ and f_ prefixes in C89 - optional lua_KContext type is not available with C89 llimits.h:79 - type definition C99: uintptr.t vs C89: size_t llimits.h:184 - in C99 or GCC Lua has a pragma for inlining functions, otherwise it's macro'ed to nothing lmathlib.c:176 - math_log has an additional optimization in C99 if (base == l_mathop(2.0)) res = l_mathop(log2)(x); else lmathlib.c:285 - LUA_RAND32 define might fail to find 64-bit type (comment says it's for testing) loslib.c:36 - `strftime()` only supports one-char options in C89 lprefix.h:14 - no _XOPEN_SOURCE with C89 (POSIX/XSI stuff) - no _LARGEFILE_SOURCE with C89 (manipulation of large files in gcc and other compilers) both of these defines don't appear anywhere else in Lua source code
        troad 5mo ago
        Thank you for looking through that; that's very interesting and helpful.
stickfigure 5mo ago
I must... resist... (I probably play to finish ever 5 years or so) It occurs to me that procedurally generated dungeons would be amazing with LLMs. Imagine every level with the sophistication of nethack's "special" levels. I hope someone out there is working on it!
haunter 5mo ago
I can highly recommend the 3D client especially because it works almost everywhere, hope it will be updated for 5.0.0 soon https://github.com/JamesIV4/nethack-3d https://github.com/JamesIV4/nethack-3d Web https://jamesiv4.github.io/nethack-3d/ https://jamesiv4.github.io/nethack-3d/
- pimeys 5mo ago
  I don't know... I played Nethack 30 years ago a lot and always felt all the graphical updates were not worth it. There's something when you can easily see the whole map in one screen. And that scary pink h appears suddenly... Edit: but to be fair, I will try this 3d version.
  - jcul 5mo ago
    "pink" h? There's a way to enable colours?
    - chongli 5mo ago
      Yes, you can turn it on by setting the color option in your nethackrc file with the line: OPTIONS=color There is also a sophisticated option for customizing the colours of in-game menus using regular expressions. You can read about that in the section on menu colours in the official Guidebook [1]. Note that the official Guidebook is considered the game’s manual and is free of spoilers. Any information you find in there is intended for all players to know before they start playing (or to reference as they go along). [1] https://www.nethack.org/v500/Guidebook.html#toc_9.12 https://www.nethack.org/v500/Guidebook.html#toc_9.12
- SubiculumCode 5mo ago
  By 3D I had supposed you meant 1st person. This seems as good as the other 2D graphics mods, fine if it's your thing. I've always preferred the chars.
- Der_Einzige 5mo ago
  Is it possible to access wizard mode on the web version? I suppose I could just clone it and run locally and implement it if not, but would be nice if it's already there to know how to trigger it.
m000 5mo ago
Wow! The inclusion of Lua bindings seems like a major step forward. This should make modding much more accessible.
- monarchwadia 5mo ago
  Oh I missed that I the announcement. Nice!!!
- thaumasiotes 5mo ago
  Angband had a rework to use lua for 3.0.0 in 2002. Then, nothing ever took advantage of it, and the lua was eventually stripped out.
Zitrax 5mo ago
What happened to version 4? Looks like last release was 3.6.7.
- stryan 5mo ago
  Possibly to avoid conflicts with Nethack4[0], which was a fork of the Nethack 3.x series back when development was stalled. I think the guy behind it later joined the main Nethack dev team. [0] http://nethack4.org/ http://nethack4.org/
- rsaarelm 5mo ago
  There is a variant named NetHack 4, they might want to avoid confusion with it.
  - bombcar 5mo ago
    Nethack 3.11 for Workgroups was right there ;)
britta 5mo ago
Aw yeah! I’d love to see somebody from the DevTeam talk about this, or literally anything else they might want to talk about, at the Roguelike Celebration in October (https://www.roguelike.club/ https://www.roguelike.club/), if anyone has a connection and could encourage them to consider it. It’s a super lovely community-run online event, and everyone would be thrilled. (I was a volunteer for the first few annual events, as a person who played about a zillion games of Nethack as a kid.)
- klik99 5mo ago
  I love Roguelike Celebration! Thanks for volunteering at it, and for boosting it here!
- ttctciyf 5mo ago
  I'll definitely be keeping an eye on Roguelike Radio[0], still putting out episodes - 3 already this year! - to see if any coverage emerges. 0: http://www.roguelikeradio.com/ http://www.roguelikeradio.com/
agiacalone 5mo ago
Wow. Did not expect this when I logged in to HN today. It's 1998 all over again for me. :)
tiahura 5mo ago
Been playing for hack since Fred Fish #7 1987. Still have never reached the amulet.
- frenzcan 5mo ago
  This comment made me feel better about my woeful track record with nethack
- mordechai9000 5mo ago
  "Slow down. Think clearly." - Izchak Solid advice, but not easy for me. I made it to the astral planes, once.
dansalvato 5mo ago
Wow, what a delightful surprise! I'm a huge NetHack fan and have been waiting a long time for the official 3.7 release before switching over to it. I've been a 3.6 holdout, haha. AFAIK, the backend has moved a lot of map generation logic (and exposure of other data) to a Lua API, which is quite exciting as something for people to play with in tooling, forks, mods, etc. Minor spoilers below: I heard about some great balance adjustments that help to mitigate over-reliance on a single kit, such as making certain extrinsic resistances (e.g. wearing rings) stronger than their intrinsic counterparts, which adds to the decision-making in choosing what to equip. Another change I'm really excited for is the unicorn horn no longer being usable for "restore ability", so ability-draining effects (of which there are many) are a more significant threat (they were effectively zero threat until now). Also very cool to hear the quest is now possible to do early (despite being a Bad Idea) as that has great implications for speedrunning or "fewest turns" runs. Can't wait to dive in!
CobrastanJorji 5mo ago
Amazing. I was never any good at Nethack. I think I just get impatient. I could regularly get a bit past Medusa but anything past that definitely involved save scumming. I was always a little jealous of the folks who could ascend regularly. But not jealous enough to, like, do anything about it. Nethack's always been amazing for the feeling of "the devs thought of everything." I wonder how well that feeling holds up today.
- MarsIronPI 5mo ago
  Same. Partly it's that I always feel like I don't understand what's going on, mechanically speaking, as opposed to simpler roguelikes like Shattered Pixel Dungeon or Sil.
  - pimeys 5mo ago
    Or do what I did when I played this as a child: read the spoilers. Then start with Valkyrie, get the Mjollnir, wand of wishing, and a dragon scale mail as fast as possible. And a bag of holding and you get pretty far. It's a fantastic game if you have a bit of imagination. The possibilities are endless and it's so rewarding to ascend finally.
    - Der_Einzige 5mo ago
      Much as chess frustrated the great game masters like bobby fischer for being too easily "gamable" with opening books, I find that the mods for games like nethack, i.e. SLASHEM et al, make it where even if you try to spoil it, the massive amount of new content combined with the relative lack of documentation force you to git gud.
    - MarsIronPI 5mo ago
      I've always heard that one of the enjoyable experiences of Nethack was figuring things out for yourself, so I've never read spoilers. I'd like to know what others think.
      - 5mo ago
foresto 5mo ago
Last time I played, after many close calls, I finally got my hands on the amulet. Knowing that the journey back to daylight was likely to be at least as dangerous as the way I had come, I took a breath, saved, and set the game aside. That was about seventeen years ago. I still have the save file. Today's announcement got me excited about the prospect of finally finishing my game, until I saw this: > Existing saved games and bones files will not work with NetHack 5.0.0. Drat. Thankfully, NetHack is not one of those modern, commercial, online-only games that make it difficult to run old versions. ** SPOILER BELOW ** (in someone's reply to me)
- technothrasher 5mo ago
  As I recall from my game of many, many years ago, I got the amulet to the surface and was greeted with, “Oops, that’s the fake amulet. Go back down.” I’m pretty sure that’s the last time I played it.
  - foresto 5mo ago
    ** SPOILER ABOVE ** Would you please edit your comment, and preface it with a spoiler warning?
    - wetpaws 5mo ago
      No
    - BigTTYGothGF 5mo ago
      Nethack has been around since 1987, it's a little late for spoilers.
      - foresto 5mo ago
        People still play this game. Spoilers still spoil experiences for others.
        5mo ago
SilentM68 5mo ago
:)
omoikane 5mo ago
List of changes: https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-5.0/doc/fixes5-0-0.txt https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-5.0/doc/fixe...
zorked 5mo ago
First impression: it has a tutorial, which should actually help increase the player base quite a bit. It comes with some movement quality of life (e.g. moving into a door opens it, moving into an obviously dangerous thing requires confirmation). If you enable the option, there's color coding of health (green -> full), burden level, and states like poisoning, which I think is new too. You can filter out messages like "you have displaced your pet".
- jballanc 5mo ago
  IIRC, there was always a way to filter out certain messages (or that may be an alt.org customization, but it's been a part of my config file for a while now).
robbiewxyz 5mo ago
I played Nethack quite a bit as a teen but was never patient enough to ascend. Always YASD. I revisited the game a few years ago & was happy to realize I had, in the meantime, grown the necessary patience. Ascending felt great.
avd201 5mo ago
Back when I was on undergrad I sometimes managed to get to the castle, but never very consistently. Opening NAO was one of my go to ways of dealing with spare time but I haven't played the game much since. This is wild tho, never imagined we would get to version 5
haakon 5mo ago
Can you name a game that is older than NetHack and still in active development? I can't.
- kibwen 5mo ago
  Wikipedia's historical list of MUDs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MUDs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MUDs ) suggests that MUD1 (1978, homepage: https://www.british-legends.com/CMS/ https://www.british-legends.com/CMS/ ) and MUD2 (1985, homepage: https://www.mud2.com/CMS/index.php https://www.mud2.com/CMS/index.php ) might still be active. From what I can tell their codebases are pretty light on substantial updates in recent years, but then again Nethack was at point considered abandoned for about a decade.
  - anthk 5mo ago
    You forgot the forks like Slashem and the like, which were born from Nethack 3.4.3.
- thaumasiotes 5mo ago
  You don't have to look very far. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_(1983_video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_(1983_video_game) > Stable release 5.7.15 / 4 June 2021; 4 years ago
  - boomlinde 5mo ago
    My understanding is that UMoria is an independent, complete remake of the original Moria. NetHack on the other hand is the same project with the same codebase throughout its history. With that in mind, NetHack is a few months older than the Moria still under development today. Not to say that this is necessarily the right way to look at it. It's not clear-cut, is what I'm saying.
hackeraccount 5mo ago
Never ascended but my main strategy revolved around something fixed in 3.7. Bummed me out so much that I stopped playing. Now though. Maybe I'll go back to it
- chongli 5mo ago
  Sounds like their release strategy of renaming it to 5.0 worked for you! 3.7 really had developed a bad reputation, so they needed a clean break.
9x39 5mo ago
The depth of NetHack is surprising. They have a saying - the devs thought of everything. If you can tolerate the mechanics, the emergent dungeon delving stories are interesting. Dungeon crawling as a tourist with a camera, rubbing a lamp and it’s a magic lamp that gives you a wish, kicking a fountain and bringing out a succubus who steals your equipment and teleports away, finding a scroll of genocide and accidentally genociding yourself because you forgot you were polymorphed, robbing shopkeepers blind with your pet dog, scratching a magic word in the ground at your it feet with your sword because you’re outnumbered to scare the enemies away, looting past dead bodies with legendary gear only to find one of the unidentified amulets was a cursed amulet of strangulation and now it’s welded to you and cant be taken off. You die. Play again? The last time I played, it was with a build that had visual tiles instead of ascii which were kinda retro fun. Hope to see a similar build on 5.0 one day. https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Tileset https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Tileset
helterskelter 5mo ago
I used to play NetHack on my laptop when my then-girlfiend and I had to watch her baby sister and she'd like to sit and watch. One day we had to go to her birthday party, and because we were in our twenties and unenthused about going to a kid's costume party we got a roll of duct tape on the way there and put @ symbols on our shirts and made her a birthday card on printer paper rolled up with random letters written on the outside. She absolutely loved it but nobody else got it, and her friends parents thought we were fucking weirdos. We thought about bringing wine to quaff, probably better we didn't, lol.
foresto 5mo ago
In the early days of NetHack, spoilers were not so widely known (the web didn't exist yet) and save scumming was more difficult* (few people had admin access on systems that could run it) compared to now. I wonder how many players today will resist those temptations now that they're not only trivial to discover and execute, but also widely accepted in gaming culture. I urge new players to resist spoilers and cheats for as long as they can. This game is full of wonderful details and interactions that are not at all obvious, and they make it exceptionally rewarding to progress when you do so by discovering them on your own. Of course, my recommended approach will mean dying a lot. If you keep a journal of things you do and notice in each play-through, your eulogy will be more useful. :) Take heart: Starting over means you're likely to encounter new things in the levels you've seen before, so it won't be boring. ... *I don't recall why the save files seemed elusive back then. Perhaps the system on which I played put them someplace obscure that I lacked either the motivation or the knowledge to find. Or perhaps they were kept out of reach of the player by unix permissions, requiring setuid for the game to read them. Either way, I'm glad, because the challenge and mystery of playing with only what the game provided made it all the more interesting.
- zorked 5mo ago
  Nethack runs as a setgid process that hides save files from users. Kind of old fashioned now that almost every Unix system is a single user system. There are still public servers for those that want the temptation to be taken away from them. As to spoilers... Everybody reads the spoilers. I doubt anyone has ever ascended spoiler-free.
  - Steuard 5mo ago
    [Possible obscure spoiler] A friend once showed me a post on rec.games.roguelike.nethack where someone was finally begging for a hint because they'd gone deep in the dungeon and couldn't figure out anything to do next. They couldn't find any staircases down, though they had found a weird vibrating square, and none of the many weird items they'd collected seemed to do anything to help.
    - 5mo ago
entuno 5mo ago
There's been a lot of nice quality of life changes in the 3.7 builds (which has now become 5.0.0) that make going back to the older versions a bit painful. Also some pretty major gameplay and balance changes, some of which are pretty controversial. But overall, I think that it's a big improvement, and although I don't necessarily agree with all the changes it certainly makes the mid and late game a lot more interesting and varied (not to mention dangerous) than it was in 3.6.7.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 5mo ago
As an avid Spelunky player(still trying to complete the Cosmic Ocean...), I recently decided to explore some of Spelunky's roots, and set out to learn Nethack, and fell in love with the game. After a few weeks of dying repeatedly, perusing the wiki, and watching the Ascending in Nethack Overexplained series on youtube(highly recommended), I managed to ascend a valkyrie. Planning on trying a harder role soon. It's amazing how tense it can be despite the turn based nature of the game. I do like the nerfs in this release. Making excalibur harder to get for Valkyries is a good one, as well as nerfing the unicorn horn. The run where I ascended felt a bit too easy at times. But of course valkyrie will still be by far the easiest role, I think. I bet I'll be stuck for quite a while trying to ascend anything else.
- SubiculumCode 5mo ago
  I've played so much Moria/Angband/Angband variants, it's funny that I never tried Nethack.
- vintermann 5mo ago
  Spelunky seems in particular inspired by the slashem mod of Nethack, since there's a black market and shopkeepers with shotguns.
bakoo 5mo ago
Wow! Wonder how they test all the releases. > The source release includes all the code for the above versions plus code for the systems listed below. Windows 8.x/10/11 Linux macOS AmigaDOS Windows CE OS/2 Unix (*BSD, System V, Solaris, HP-UX, ...) BeOS VMS
adeon 5mo ago
I played this game a bit back in 3.4.3 times. It's been great on long-haul flights to play on the laptop. Doesn't demand your battery.
jmclnx 5mo ago
Seems each NetHack release it gets harder and harder :) But I since we are in May I would guess it will be part of junethack: https://junethack.net/ https://junethack.net/ I cannot get into hardfought.org right now, but nethack.alt seems to be available. I can see alt.org is using nethack 3.6.7 looking forward to giving v5 a try.
- bhaak 5mo ago
  > NOTICE: Starting March 7th, 2026 at 3pm UTC, players accessing the hdf-us server via SSH must connect to us.hardfought.org instead of just hardfought.org (ssh nethack@us.hardfought.org). Please update your configurations accordingly. There was some bot DOS attack on hardfought, so they had to get behind cloudflare IIRC but that made having the same domain for somehow problematic. And yes, it will be part of Junethack. 3.7 already was so it's actually just changing version numbers. :)
askos 5mo ago
Ah, trip down the memory lane... I guess I have to try to recall now how the game was played. There is a great likelihood last time was more than 25 years ago.
Dove 5mo ago
> make unique swallowing monsters (Juiblex) resist magical digging from inside Oh noooooooooo... yeah that's fair. Lots of overdue gameplay changes here, really. I was something of an expert player 20 years ago, my best ascenscion being Atheist/Genoless/Wishless with no pet to boot. It seems a lot has changed. I see fixes on this list for things that bothered me then. :)
user3939382 5mo ago
Ah yes, the game with punctuation moving around I have no idea what’s happening and exit.
- B1FF_PSUVM 5mo ago
  Wax on, wax off.
oceansky 5mo ago
Last update was 1171 days ago. Nethack is one of the best open source projects.
jmyeet 5mo ago
My Nethack story is that in the 1990s I once got fired from a job for downloading NetHack because, I kid you not, it hit some Web log filter for the word "hack". I got dragged into a meeting with three log entries in yellow highlighter on a dot matrix printout showing the word "hack". Expalanations that it was a computer game went nowhere. I don't think I ever legitimately completed NetHack. I think the best I did was getting to the elemental planes. Later I read about some of the strats and kit you aim for, which I think was a mistake because it kinda ruined it for me. I'm honestly surprised this is still going on. Kudos to anyone still keeping this going. I'd kinda assumed it was forever stuck in 3.7? I see there are 3100 bugfixes and changes. I really wish there was a summary of major changes. Maybe there are none and it's just a backend revamp plus bugfixes that they bumped the major version on.
- ForOldHack 5mo ago
  We always renamed the source archive "Viupdate.lib" and rename the binary 'vi' and the process manger would show that two copies of 'vi' were running.
foo12bar 5mo ago
Waiting for VR
- ForOldHack 5mo ago
  Waiting for AR
wwweston 5mo ago
And here I thought I was safe from losing months to escapism like I did in the 2000s (learned to ascend with every class though!) Anyone know why the skip over 4.x, or have any insight into how much play has changed as well as infrastructure?
- chowells 5mo ago
  They likely were inspired by Microsoft's innovation in skipping 4.x of DirectX.
- jsn 5mo ago
  The DevTeam released nethack-3.4.3 in Dec 2003, and then pretty much went dormant for 11 years -- no new releases, no roadmap, nothing. So some time around 2013 some people not connected to the DevTeam created this project: http://nethack4.org/ http://nethack4.org/ . So now the DevTeam skips 4.x version numbers completely to avoid confusion.
  - Suppafly 5mo ago
    man that's super shady that they didn't rename the split if they didn't have buy in from the original devs to take over the project.
    - chongli 5mo ago
      The people who worked on NetHack4 are now members of the mainline DevTeam and were heavily involved in the 5.0 release.
- avd201 5mo ago
  Nethack4 is the name of a popular fork, they probably wanted to avoid confusing people
YZF 5mo ago
NetHack ... so many great memories of time sunk ;) To click or not to click, that is the question.
zeristor 5mo ago
ASCII all the way. In the dim and distant past there was a game Mazigs on the ZX81, a maze monster game, using ZX81 graphics. Perhaps using those graphics for Nethack would be interesting. I think we could remove FAST mode. Generally with such ideas several people thought and implemented it 20 years ago.
- zeristor 5mo ago
  Oh. Mazogs is shit, not as impressive as I imagined it.
Hackbraten 5mo ago
I've been playing on and off for 15 years, sometimes daily for months on end. The deepest I managed to go is level 11, and as soon as I enter the Big Room, I die. In fact, I went past level 8 for the first time this year. I've read all of the NetHack wiki back and forth. I don't have the slightest idea what I'm doing wrong or how to improve. I'm 46 now, and if I continue that pace, I'll be dead before I even reach the bottom, let alone ascend.
- andwaal 5mo ago
  Been pkaying on and off since I was 12, 38 today.. Good times. Quick tip is to play valkyrie, dip sword for excalibur, rub any lamps and wish for sdsm, and you should be good. Also check out DCSS, amazing game, been playing for soon 40 years.
  - Hackbraten 5mo ago
    I've had them all. I’ve had wands of wishing, I die. I’ve worn blessed greased amazing technicolor Valenciaga +9001 silver patent leather dragon 2x HiDPIscale mail, I die. I step in a fucking trap, I get surrounded by a dozen killer bees, I die. Soldier ant, I die.
    - andwaal 5mo ago
      Haha amazing times, just have to go at it again, and again and again.
    - chongli 5mo ago
      Good players can kill soldier ants with almost nothing, just some rocks or darts or daggers. There’s a bit of tactics to learn but the essential step is to stop bumping into enemies and learn to fight at range, use Elbereth to keep them at a distance, use doors and corridors to limit their angles of approach. Once you learn how to kill a fast enemy (like a soldier ant) without letting it fight you in melee, you become unstoppable for the first 1/3rd of the game or so. You discover that you don’t need the best armour in the game right away, you don’t even need more than a half-decent weapon, you just need to maintain your supplies of ranged weapons (and wands). Stepping in traps can also be avoided with the knowledge that (with 2 special exceptions) traps only generate in rooms, not corridors. Traps can be safely searched for from adjacent spaces and once discovered remain visible permanently. I should also point out that the two enemies you mentioned that killed you have one thing in common: poisonous sting attacks. Poison has been nerfed in the latest version (5.0) and poison resistance can be acquired in game. Furthermore, some characters actually start the game with poison resistance for free!
anthk 5mo ago
I still play Slashem daily, but vanilla Nethack it's a must because of Pratchett.
pimeys 5mo ago
Here's a good report on a completely unspoiled playthrough which was an interesting read. https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/c/wci4E96iKc4/m/FOJScF7qaHUJ?pli=1 https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/c/wc...
erickhill 5mo ago
Only Amiga makes it possible. ;)
tiahura 5mo ago
Anyone else using claude code to play nethack in a tmux pane?
blindriver 5mo ago
I've been playing this game since the mid 1980s since it was called Hack. I've only ascended twice, the last time being last year, and it required a heavy amount of cheating/saving. I guess the rest of this weekend is already accounted for.
dom96 5mo ago
Great! An excuse to play again. My favourite way to play it is using `ssh nethack@nethack.alt.org`. Don't even have to install it. Though it seems it hasn't received this update yet.
- Unit327 5mo ago
  ssh nethack@us.hardfought.org It has been updated, and there are also eu/au region servers.
- SubiculumCode 5mo ago
  Oh cool!!!
higon 5mo ago
Glad to hear it received a major update. Nethack on Slackware Linux was my childhood and has a special place in me. It taught me how to really use computers. Time to compile the source code again, folks.
big85 5mo ago
Some notable changes in 5.0.0 (spoilers abound): If a bag of holding explodes (e.g. due to putting a wand of cancellation in it), most of its items are scattered rather than lost Amnesia no longer causes you to forget maps Unicorn horns no longer restore lost attributes Valkyrie ascensions (considered the easiest) are harder: chance to receive Excalibur when dipping a longsword in a fountain is decreased if not a knight, valkyries no longer start with a longsword, valkyrie doesn't gain Stealth until level 3 You can't displace pets into polymorph traps easily to get a super pet You can apply $ to flip a coin
- rirze 5mo ago
  Damn they really nerfed valkyrie. I loved that class.
  - jballanc 5mo ago
    For real! Valkyrie is the perfect "just bash things while only half paying attention" class. Great for when I'm playing to unwind (as opposed to playing as a challenge to myself). At least there's still Samurai.
    - chorizo 5mo ago
      That was my favorite class. Still remember the game where I mostly (t) threw my wakizashi (b) at enemies.
SubiculumCode 5mo ago
It's related to Angband, not Nethack, and the content is not as easy to view these days, but the Angband Comic strip is a true clult classic in niche humor. http://angband.calamarain.net/ http://angband.calamarain.net/
MattCruikshank 5mo ago
So, if I understand correctly, the goal is to enjoy dying thousands of times? Or, to give up and read online how to play? Or some of both?
- B1FF_PSUVM 5mo ago
  Die. Die better. So many clever ways to die.
- Dove 5mo ago
  "Every time I sat down to play [the game] it was like walking into a dark shed full of rakes, treading on one, and getting blatted in the face... and then I'd go back into the shed, thinking maybe it was just the one rake, when blat in the face again. So I thought, I'll just keep tanking the rakes and maybe I'll become psychotically in love with being rake-faced. And that's kind of what happened." Yahtzee was talking about Dark Souls, but it applies. (Vigorously NSFW, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=STrYyhEwkbY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=STrYyhEwkbY ) That said, I think Nethack is best experienced with liberal and unapologetic spoiler use.
- chongli 5mo ago
  The goal is to enjoy the process of discovery. These days people don’t seem to have the patience for that, or the tolerance for trial and error to achieve it. I’m not just talking about gamers, either. I have noticed a huge change with the high school students I tutor in mathematics. They have no patience for my attempts to teach them how to solve the problems, they just want the answer. Give me the answer! Now! Now! Now! Luckily they have LLMs to answer all their questions now, so only the few students who really want to learn continue to ask me questions. I digress. As for the issue of dying repeatedly, that’s a mindset thing. When I die in a game of NetHack, I take a bit of time to reflect on why I died (roughly proportional in time to how far into the game I was) then I start a new game and check out what I have. Most roles in NetHack have randomized statistics and a partly randomized starting inventory, with the Wizard being a notable extreme. This along with the first few floors of loot tend to be enough to draw me right in to the next game. Some people get seriously dejected when they die in the game. I think they’ve been trained by more modern games to see death as a flaw in the game, as though they were watching a movie and it suddenly skipped back to an earlier point (or even the very beginning). With NetHack death is a normal thing, and very frequent for new players. This is not at all atypical for the arcade games which were popular at the time of its original release in 1987. Another way to look at it is like chess: on the road to becoming a grandmaster, you can expect to lose many thousands of games. How you respond to and learn from those losses are what ultimately determine whether you reach the top of the mountain.
shanusmagnus 5mo ago
This is going to seem either beyond idiotic (which it may be) or a troll (which it is not) but: is this game actually fun? Like, if you have zero nostalgia or anything, and your evaluation of it is based solely on what it is, is it something a person in their 20s would want to play? Is it fun in a different way than, say, Dwarf Fortress is fun? (Haven't played DF but I think I understand why people do.) Would really love informed takes on this.
- kibwen 5mo ago
  It's complicated. The soul of Nethack is opaque design, secrets, and emergent gameplay from mechanical interactions. In theory, the best way to play Nethack is by going in completely blind ("unspoiled"), so that you maximize the sense of discovery which is its most compelling trait. But in practice, I highly doubt that anyone in human history has ever beaten Nethack without looking up any spoilers. At some point you just get frustrated, decide enough is enough, and look up whatever spoilers are necessary to beat the game. Even getting started is rough for a beginner without spoilers, but at the same time taking a spoiler-maximalist approach is probably going to result in a pretty lackluster experience. I'd say that, to some degree, roguelike game design has moved on, and when it comes to hilarity and sheer mechanical depth and breadth, games like Caves of Qud are probably better at evoking the feelings of Nethack without being so absolutely reliant on spoilers (which isn't to say that the game isn't still largely opaque, just that the essential parts are better-communicated). And on the flipside, anti-Nethacks like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup make it a design goal to be fun and playable even assuming a totally spoiled player, by focusing more on tactical and strategic decisions and being forthright about including all necessary information within the game itself.
- djao 5mo ago
  Nethack is what you get when you take a team of developers and have them focus on gameplay to the exclusion of all else. No graphics, music, marketing, apps, action sequences, or profit motive. Just pure gameplay, with a richness of interactions and possibilities unmatched by more polished modern games. Nethack is so well balanced that, for most players, being gifted the three most powerful items in the game from the start barely affects your winning chances. AI researchers think NetHack is interesting [1, 2]. You should too! [1] https://proceedings.mlr.press/v176/hambro22a/hambro22a.pdf https://proceedings.mlr.press/v176/hambro22a/hambro22a.pdf [2] https://arxiv.org/abs/2403.00690 https://arxiv.org/abs/2403.00690
ilaksh 5mo ago
I wonder if moving to Lua makes it easier to Hack/Mod? Maybe more easily create variations?
openjudgenoi 5mo ago
[flagged]
melasadra 5mo ago
How would you compare these to Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (DCSS) or Tales of Majeyal (ToME).? I play tons of both games but am having difficulty settling in nethack
0rbiter 5mo ago
[dead]
seanhunter 5mo ago
As someone who hasn’t played for 20 years+ seems weird that they worry about spoilers in the release notes - back when I played literally the only way to learn certain game mechanics etc (eg the e-word) was to read the source code, and when you did that you found a bunch of things that were incredibly overpowered to the point of basically trivializing a lot of the game. (It’s been a long while but I seem to remember discovering very easy ways to find very powerful weapons and armour). It seems to me that for what I was after at the time, DCSS is actually a better nethack than nethack is in that the game is more discoverable and fair and less arbitrary.
- quickthrowman 5mo ago
  I started with DCSS and I played Nethack a few times. After reading some of the spoilers and realizing what I would have to memorize to win the game, I stopped playing it. DCSS focused on tactical encounters which I enjoy a lot more than reading up what word to inscribe on the floor to make myself invincible or whatever. I still enjoy the idea of Nethack, it’s very clever and incredibly deep, it’s just not for me.
- chongli 5mo ago
  NetHack was my very first Roguelike and I ascended for the first time in 2009. I have since gone on to play many other Roguelikes, including DCSS. I managed to win DCSS with all species, backgrounds, and gods over a period of a few years. Since then I’ve mostly lost interest in playing, and have returned to NetHack which to me feels as cozy as an old pair of slippers. With what I know of both NetHack and DCSS, I prefer NetHack these days. DCSS is very interesting, tactically, in the early game but as you go along it becomes more and more about “keep doing the thing this character is good at” and the tactical variety vanishes. NetHack isn’t a whole lot better in that regard, but NetHack isn’t purely about tactics anyway, so it matters a lot less. The Roguelike I most enjoy for its tactical prowess is Shattered Pixel Dungeon, which is far more interesting on that level. It has much more customizable characters, with talent points and a nifty scroll of upgrade system for weapons, armour, throwing weapons, wands, and rings (a system it borrowed from the game Brogue, a reimagining of the original Rogue). This character customization system is combined with a more interactive dungeon (full of traps you can trigger against monsters, spreadable water/grass/fire/poisonous gases) and a highly in-depth alchemy system that lets you recycle “junk” items into extremely useful and powerful resources. On top of all that, SPD features a challenge difficulty system with up to 9 challenges that can be toggled independently and in combination, with the full 9 challenges presenting a worthy foe even for seasoned veterans of the game.

527 points by rsaarelm 5mo ago

> The build-time "yacc and lex"-based level compiler, the "yacc and lex"-based dungeon compiler, and the quest text file processing previously done by NetHack's "makedefs" utility, have been replaced with Lua text alternatives that are loaded and processed by the game during play. This is very likely a good choice for multiple reasons, but it's truly the end of an era. (NetHack predates Lua, which has been around since 1993.) Lex and yacc are dead, long live lex and yacc!

anthk 5mo ago
Lua is not on base on most distros, that's sad. Also it stops being as portable. By Amiga 68k platforms then. And maybe DOS. Also, there no official Nethack i686 builds. If I were them I'd try some micro-language from https://t3x.org https://t3x.org as a pre-processor and bundle it. The T3X0 language itself can do wonders and even be ported to DOS with ease. EDIT: ok, Lua can be portable and even they got DOS ports, this is great.
- bhaak 5mo ago
  There are also official Amiga binaries. :) The Amiga port was resurrected just a few weeks ago. https://mastodon.social/@ipaschke@cyberplace.social/116257283774703409 https://mastodon.social/@ipaschke@cyberplace.social/11625728...
  - anthk 5mo ago
    Great; hope they can made further ports to m68k Macs and Ataris.
- 6581 5mo ago
  > By Amiga 68k platforms then. https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-amiga.html https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-amiga.html > And maybe DOS. https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-msdos.html https://nethack.org/v500/ports/download-msdos.html
- themafia 5mo ago
  The lua 5.4 sources are less than 1 megabyte in size and are MIT licensed. You can link against it but it's just as easy to directly compile it into your application directly.
  - anthk 5mo ago
    Good, kinda like JimTCL-small then :)
- B1FF_PSUVM 5mo ago
  > Lua is not on base on most distros, that's sad. Also it stops being as portable. Huh? Usually programs just embed a Lua interpreter, I think. Famously light.
- trynumber9 5mo ago
  Nethack embeds Lua 5.4.8, so you don't need it installed from a distribution's package manager. As long as your system can build C99* it can build Lua. And given that Nethack 5.0.0 is C99, this dependency is not reducing portability any further. * Lua has a LUA_USE_C89 flag so it may be more portable than Nethack 5.0.0 at this point.
  - troad 5mo ago
    > LUA_USE_C89 How much functionality/performance does one lose with this flag? Genuine question, I don't know. If C89 and C99 were equally performant/functional, it would seem logical to just target C89 (since any C99 compiler should be able to compile C89 too). There must be some reason it's a flag.
    - archargelod 5mo ago
      I downloaded a Lua 5.4.8 source tarball and checked all the uses of LUA_USE_C89 (manually, without AI): luaconf.h:50-655 - windows builds always use C89 (quote: "broadly, Windows is C89") - in C99 Lua uses 'strtod' and 'sprintf' for hex number conversions. Otherwise, Lua provides its own implementation. - no math function variants with l_ and f_ prefixes in C89 - optional lua_KContext type is not available with C89 llimits.h:79 - type definition C99: uintptr.t vs C89: size_t llimits.h:184 - in C99 or GCC Lua has a pragma for inlining functions, otherwise it's macro'ed to nothing lmathlib.c:176 - math_log has an additional optimization in C99 if (base == l_mathop(2.0)) res = l_mathop(log2)(x); else lmathlib.c:285 - LUA_RAND32 define might fail to find 64-bit type (comment says it's for testing) loslib.c:36 - `strftime()` only supports one-char options in C89 lprefix.h:14 - no _XOPEN_SOURCE with C89 (POSIX/XSI stuff) - no _LARGEFILE_SOURCE with C89 (manipulation of large files in gcc and other compilers) both of these defines don't appear anywhere else in Lua source code
      - troad 5mo ago
        Thank you for looking through that; that's very interesting and helpful.

stickfigure 5mo ago

I must... resist... (I probably play to finish ever 5 years or so) It occurs to me that procedurally generated dungeons would be amazing with LLMs. Imagine every level with the sophistication of nethack's "special" levels. I hope someone out there is working on it!

haunter 5mo ago

I can highly recommend the 3D client especially because it works almost everywhere, hope it will be updated for 5.0.0 soon https://github.com/JamesIV4/nethack-3d https://github.com/JamesIV4/nethack-3d Web https://jamesiv4.github.io/nethack-3d/ https://jamesiv4.github.io/nethack-3d/

pimeys 5mo ago
I don't know... I played Nethack 30 years ago a lot and always felt all the graphical updates were not worth it. There's something when you can easily see the whole map in one screen. And that scary pink h appears suddenly... Edit: but to be fair, I will try this 3d version.
- jcul 5mo ago
  "pink" h? There's a way to enable colours?
  - chongli 5mo ago
    Yes, you can turn it on by setting the color option in your nethackrc file with the line: OPTIONS=color There is also a sophisticated option for customizing the colours of in-game menus using regular expressions. You can read about that in the section on menu colours in the official Guidebook [1]. Note that the official Guidebook is considered the game’s manual and is free of spoilers. Any information you find in there is intended for all players to know before they start playing (or to reference as they go along). [1] https://www.nethack.org/v500/Guidebook.html#toc_9.12 https://www.nethack.org/v500/Guidebook.html#toc_9.12
SubiculumCode 5mo ago
By 3D I had supposed you meant 1st person. This seems as good as the other 2D graphics mods, fine if it's your thing. I've always preferred the chars.
Der_Einzige 5mo ago
Is it possible to access wizard mode on the web version? I suppose I could just clone it and run locally and implement it if not, but would be nice if it's already there to know how to trigger it.

m000 5mo ago

Wow! The inclusion of Lua bindings seems like a major step forward. This should make modding much more accessible.

monarchwadia 5mo ago
Oh I missed that I the announcement. Nice!!!
thaumasiotes 5mo ago
Angband had a rework to use lua for 3.0.0 in 2002. Then, nothing ever took advantage of it, and the lua was eventually stripped out.

Zitrax 5mo ago

What happened to version 4? Looks like last release was 3.6.7.

stryan 5mo ago
Possibly to avoid conflicts with Nethack4[0], which was a fork of the Nethack 3.x series back when development was stalled. I think the guy behind it later joined the main Nethack dev team. [0] http://nethack4.org/ http://nethack4.org/
rsaarelm 5mo ago
There is a variant named NetHack 4, they might want to avoid confusion with it.
- bombcar 5mo ago
  Nethack 3.11 for Workgroups was right there ;)

britta 5mo ago

Aw yeah! I’d love to see somebody from the DevTeam talk about this, or literally anything else they might want to talk about, at the Roguelike Celebration in October (https://www.roguelike.club/ https://www.roguelike.club/), if anyone has a connection and could encourage them to consider it. It’s a super lovely community-run online event, and everyone would be thrilled. (I was a volunteer for the first few annual events, as a person who played about a zillion games of Nethack as a kid.)

klik99 5mo ago
I love Roguelike Celebration! Thanks for volunteering at it, and for boosting it here!
ttctciyf 5mo ago
I'll definitely be keeping an eye on Roguelike Radio[0], still putting out episodes - 3 already this year! - to see if any coverage emerges. 0: http://www.roguelikeradio.com/ http://www.roguelikeradio.com/

agiacalone 5mo ago

Wow. Did not expect this when I logged in to HN today. It's 1998 all over again for me. :)

tiahura 5mo ago

Been playing for hack since Fred Fish #7 1987. Still have never reached the amulet.

frenzcan 5mo ago
This comment made me feel better about my woeful track record with nethack
mordechai9000 5mo ago
"Slow down. Think clearly." - Izchak Solid advice, but not easy for me. I made it to the astral planes, once.

dansalvato 5mo ago

Wow, what a delightful surprise! I'm a huge NetHack fan and have been waiting a long time for the official 3.7 release before switching over to it. I've been a 3.6 holdout, haha. AFAIK, the backend has moved a lot of map generation logic (and exposure of other data) to a Lua API, which is quite exciting as something for people to play with in tooling, forks, mods, etc. Minor spoilers below: I heard about some great balance adjustments that help to mitigate over-reliance on a single kit, such as making certain extrinsic resistances (e.g. wearing rings) stronger than their intrinsic counterparts, which adds to the decision-making in choosing what to equip. Another change I'm really excited for is the unicorn horn no longer being usable for "restore ability", so ability-draining effects (of which there are many) are a more significant threat (they were effectively zero threat until now). Also very cool to hear the quest is now possible to do early (despite being a Bad Idea) as that has great implications for speedrunning or "fewest turns" runs. Can't wait to dive in!

CobrastanJorji 5mo ago

Amazing. I was never any good at Nethack. I think I just get impatient. I could regularly get a bit past Medusa but anything past that definitely involved save scumming. I was always a little jealous of the folks who could ascend regularly. But not jealous enough to, like, do anything about it. Nethack's always been amazing for the feeling of "the devs thought of everything." I wonder how well that feeling holds up today.

MarsIronPI 5mo ago
Same. Partly it's that I always feel like I don't understand what's going on, mechanically speaking, as opposed to simpler roguelikes like Shattered Pixel Dungeon or Sil.
- pimeys 5mo ago
  Or do what I did when I played this as a child: read the spoilers. Then start with Valkyrie, get the Mjollnir, wand of wishing, and a dragon scale mail as fast as possible. And a bag of holding and you get pretty far. It's a fantastic game if you have a bit of imagination. The possibilities are endless and it's so rewarding to ascend finally.
  - Der_Einzige 5mo ago
    Much as chess frustrated the great game masters like bobby fischer for being too easily "gamable" with opening books, I find that the mods for games like nethack, i.e. SLASHEM et al, make it where even if you try to spoil it, the massive amount of new content combined with the relative lack of documentation force you to git gud.
  - MarsIronPI 5mo ago
    I've always heard that one of the enjoyable experiences of Nethack was figuring things out for yourself, so I've never read spoilers. I'd like to know what others think.
    - 5mo ago

foresto 5mo ago

Last time I played, after many close calls, I finally got my hands on the amulet. Knowing that the journey back to daylight was likely to be at least as dangerous as the way I had come, I took a breath, saved, and set the game aside. That was about seventeen years ago. I still have the save file. Today's announcement got me excited about the prospect of finally finishing my game, until I saw this: > Existing saved games and bones files will not work with NetHack 5.0.0. Drat. Thankfully, NetHack is not one of those modern, commercial, online-only games that make it difficult to run old versions. ** SPOILER BELOW ** (in someone's reply to me)

technothrasher 5mo ago
As I recall from my game of many, many years ago, I got the amulet to the surface and was greeted with, “Oops, that’s the fake amulet. Go back down.” I’m pretty sure that’s the last time I played it.
- foresto 5mo ago
  ** SPOILER ABOVE ** Would you please edit your comment, and preface it with a spoiler warning?
  - wetpaws 5mo ago
    No
  - BigTTYGothGF 5mo ago
    Nethack has been around since 1987, it's a little late for spoilers.
    - foresto 5mo ago
      People still play this game. Spoilers still spoil experiences for others.
      - 5mo ago

SilentM68 5mo ago

omoikane 5mo ago

List of changes: https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-5.0/doc/fixes5-0-0.txt https://github.com/NetHack/NetHack/blob/NetHack-5.0/doc/fixe...

zorked 5mo ago

First impression: it has a tutorial, which should actually help increase the player base quite a bit. It comes with some movement quality of life (e.g. moving into a door opens it, moving into an obviously dangerous thing requires confirmation). If you enable the option, there's color coding of health (green -> full), burden level, and states like poisoning, which I think is new too. You can filter out messages like "you have displaced your pet".

jballanc 5mo ago
IIRC, there was always a way to filter out certain messages (or that may be an alt.org customization, but it's been a part of my config file for a while now).

robbiewxyz 5mo ago

I played Nethack quite a bit as a teen but was never patient enough to ascend. Always YASD. I revisited the game a few years ago & was happy to realize I had, in the meantime, grown the necessary patience. Ascending felt great.

avd201 5mo ago

Back when I was on undergrad I sometimes managed to get to the castle, but never very consistently. Opening NAO was one of my go to ways of dealing with spare time but I haven't played the game much since. This is wild tho, never imagined we would get to version 5

haakon 5mo ago

Can you name a game that is older than NetHack and still in active development? I can't.

kibwen 5mo ago
Wikipedia's historical list of MUDs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MUDs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MUDs ) suggests that MUD1 (1978, homepage: https://www.british-legends.com/CMS/ https://www.british-legends.com/CMS/ ) and MUD2 (1985, homepage: https://www.mud2.com/CMS/index.php https://www.mud2.com/CMS/index.php ) might still be active. From what I can tell their codebases are pretty light on substantial updates in recent years, but then again Nethack was at point considered abandoned for about a decade.
- anthk 5mo ago
  You forgot the forks like Slashem and the like, which were born from Nethack 3.4.3.
thaumasiotes 5mo ago
You don't have to look very far. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_(1983_video_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_(1983_video_game) > Stable release 5.7.15 / 4 June 2021; 4 years ago
- boomlinde 5mo ago
  My understanding is that UMoria is an independent, complete remake of the original Moria. NetHack on the other hand is the same project with the same codebase throughout its history. With that in mind, NetHack is a few months older than the Moria still under development today. Not to say that this is necessarily the right way to look at it. It's not clear-cut, is what I'm saying.

hackeraccount 5mo ago

Never ascended but my main strategy revolved around something fixed in 3.7. Bummed me out so much that I stopped playing. Now though. Maybe I'll go back to it

chongli 5mo ago
Sounds like their release strategy of renaming it to 5.0 worked for you! 3.7 really had developed a bad reputation, so they needed a clean break.

9x39 5mo ago

The depth of NetHack is surprising. They have a saying - the devs thought of everything. If you can tolerate the mechanics, the emergent dungeon delving stories are interesting. Dungeon crawling as a tourist with a camera, rubbing a lamp and it’s a magic lamp that gives you a wish, kicking a fountain and bringing out a succubus who steals your equipment and teleports away, finding a scroll of genocide and accidentally genociding yourself because you forgot you were polymorphed, robbing shopkeepers blind with your pet dog, scratching a magic word in the ground at your it feet with your sword because you’re outnumbered to scare the enemies away, looting past dead bodies with legendary gear only to find one of the unidentified amulets was a cursed amulet of strangulation and now it’s welded to you and cant be taken off. You die. Play again? The last time I played, it was with a build that had visual tiles instead of ascii which were kinda retro fun. Hope to see a similar build on 5.0 one day. https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Tileset https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Tileset

helterskelter 5mo ago

I used to play NetHack on my laptop when my then-girlfiend and I had to watch her baby sister and she'd like to sit and watch. One day we had to go to her birthday party, and because we were in our twenties and unenthused about going to a kid's costume party we got a roll of duct tape on the way there and put @ symbols on our shirts and made her a birthday card on printer paper rolled up with random letters written on the outside. She absolutely loved it but nobody else got it, and her friends parents thought we were fucking weirdos. We thought about bringing wine to quaff, probably better we didn't, lol.

foresto 5mo ago

In the early days of NetHack, spoilers were not so widely known (the web didn't exist yet) and save scumming was more difficult* (few people had admin access on systems that could run it) compared to now. I wonder how many players today will resist those temptations now that they're not only trivial to discover and execute, but also widely accepted in gaming culture. I urge new players to resist spoilers and cheats for as long as they can. This game is full of wonderful details and interactions that are not at all obvious, and they make it exceptionally rewarding to progress when you do so by discovering them on your own. Of course, my recommended approach will mean dying a lot. If you keep a journal of things you do and notice in each play-through, your eulogy will be more useful. :) Take heart: Starting over means you're likely to encounter new things in the levels you've seen before, so it won't be boring. ... *I don't recall why the save files seemed elusive back then. Perhaps the system on which I played put them someplace obscure that I lacked either the motivation or the knowledge to find. Or perhaps they were kept out of reach of the player by unix permissions, requiring setuid for the game to read them. Either way, I'm glad, because the challenge and mystery of playing with only what the game provided made it all the more interesting.

zorked 5mo ago
Nethack runs as a setgid process that hides save files from users. Kind of old fashioned now that almost every Unix system is a single user system. There are still public servers for those that want the temptation to be taken away from them. As to spoilers... Everybody reads the spoilers. I doubt anyone has ever ascended spoiler-free.
- Steuard 5mo ago
  [Possible obscure spoiler] A friend once showed me a post on rec.games.roguelike.nethack where someone was finally begging for a hint because they'd gone deep in the dungeon and couldn't figure out anything to do next. They couldn't find any staircases down, though they had found a weird vibrating square, and none of the many weird items they'd collected seemed to do anything to help.
  - 5mo ago

entuno 5mo ago

There's been a lot of nice quality of life changes in the 3.7 builds (which has now become 5.0.0) that make going back to the older versions a bit painful. Also some pretty major gameplay and balance changes, some of which are pretty controversial. But overall, I think that it's a big improvement, and although I don't necessarily agree with all the changes it certainly makes the mid and late game a lot more interesting and varied (not to mention dangerous) than it was in 3.6.7.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 5mo ago

As an avid Spelunky player(still trying to complete the Cosmic Ocean...), I recently decided to explore some of Spelunky's roots, and set out to learn Nethack, and fell in love with the game. After a few weeks of dying repeatedly, perusing the wiki, and watching the Ascending in Nethack Overexplained series on youtube(highly recommended), I managed to ascend a valkyrie. Planning on trying a harder role soon. It's amazing how tense it can be despite the turn based nature of the game. I do like the nerfs in this release. Making excalibur harder to get for Valkyries is a good one, as well as nerfing the unicorn horn. The run where I ascended felt a bit too easy at times. But of course valkyrie will still be by far the easiest role, I think. I bet I'll be stuck for quite a while trying to ascend anything else.

SubiculumCode 5mo ago
I've played so much Moria/Angband/Angband variants, it's funny that I never tried Nethack.
vintermann 5mo ago
Spelunky seems in particular inspired by the slashem mod of Nethack, since there's a black market and shopkeepers with shotguns.

bakoo 5mo ago

Wow! Wonder how they test all the releases. > The source release includes all the code for the above versions plus code for the systems listed below. Windows 8.x/10/11 Linux macOS AmigaDOS Windows CE OS/2 Unix (*BSD, System V, Solaris, HP-UX, ...) BeOS VMS

adeon 5mo ago

I played this game a bit back in 3.4.3 times. It's been great on long-haul flights to play on the laptop. Doesn't demand your battery.

jmclnx 5mo ago

Seems each NetHack release it gets harder and harder :) But I since we are in May I would guess it will be part of junethack: https://junethack.net/ https://junethack.net/ I cannot get into hardfought.org right now, but nethack.alt seems to be available. I can see alt.org is using nethack 3.6.7 looking forward to giving v5 a try.

bhaak 5mo ago
> NOTICE: Starting March 7th, 2026 at 3pm UTC, players accessing the hdf-us server via SSH must connect to us.hardfought.org instead of just hardfought.org (ssh nethack@us.hardfought.org). Please update your configurations accordingly. There was some bot DOS attack on hardfought, so they had to get behind cloudflare IIRC but that made having the same domain for somehow problematic. And yes, it will be part of Junethack. 3.7 already was so it's actually just changing version numbers. :)

askos 5mo ago

Ah, trip down the memory lane... I guess I have to try to recall now how the game was played. There is a great likelihood last time was more than 25 years ago.

Dove 5mo ago

> make unique swallowing monsters (Juiblex) resist magical digging from inside Oh noooooooooo... yeah that's fair. Lots of overdue gameplay changes here, really. I was something of an expert player 20 years ago, my best ascenscion being Atheist/Genoless/Wishless with no pet to boot. It seems a lot has changed. I see fixes on this list for things that bothered me then. :)

user3939382 5mo ago

Ah yes, the game with punctuation moving around I have no idea what’s happening and exit.

B1FF_PSUVM 5mo ago
Wax on, wax off.

oceansky 5mo ago

Last update was 1171 days ago. Nethack is one of the best open source projects.

jmyeet 5mo ago

My Nethack story is that in the 1990s I once got fired from a job for downloading NetHack because, I kid you not, it hit some Web log filter for the word "hack". I got dragged into a meeting with three log entries in yellow highlighter on a dot matrix printout showing the word "hack". Expalanations that it was a computer game went nowhere. I don't think I ever legitimately completed NetHack. I think the best I did was getting to the elemental planes. Later I read about some of the strats and kit you aim for, which I think was a mistake because it kinda ruined it for me. I'm honestly surprised this is still going on. Kudos to anyone still keeping this going. I'd kinda assumed it was forever stuck in 3.7? I see there are 3100 bugfixes and changes. I really wish there was a summary of major changes. Maybe there are none and it's just a backend revamp plus bugfixes that they bumped the major version on.

ForOldHack 5mo ago
We always renamed the source archive "Viupdate.lib" and rename the binary 'vi' and the process manger would show that two copies of 'vi' were running.

foo12bar 5mo ago

Waiting for VR

ForOldHack 5mo ago
Waiting for AR

wwweston 5mo ago

And here I thought I was safe from losing months to escapism like I did in the 2000s (learned to ascend with every class though!) Anyone know why the skip over 4.x, or have any insight into how much play has changed as well as infrastructure?

chowells 5mo ago
They likely were inspired by Microsoft's innovation in skipping 4.x of DirectX.
jsn 5mo ago
The DevTeam released nethack-3.4.3 in Dec 2003, and then pretty much went dormant for 11 years -- no new releases, no roadmap, nothing. So some time around 2013 some people not connected to the DevTeam created this project: http://nethack4.org/ http://nethack4.org/ . So now the DevTeam skips 4.x version numbers completely to avoid confusion.
- Suppafly 5mo ago
  man that's super shady that they didn't rename the split if they didn't have buy in from the original devs to take over the project.
  - chongli 5mo ago
    The people who worked on NetHack4 are now members of the mainline DevTeam and were heavily involved in the 5.0 release.
avd201 5mo ago
Nethack4 is the name of a popular fork, they probably wanted to avoid confusing people

YZF 5mo ago

NetHack ... so many great memories of time sunk ;) To click or not to click, that is the question.

zeristor 5mo ago

ASCII all the way. In the dim and distant past there was a game Mazigs on the ZX81, a maze monster game, using ZX81 graphics. Perhaps using those graphics for Nethack would be interesting. I think we could remove FAST mode. Generally with such ideas several people thought and implemented it 20 years ago.

zeristor 5mo ago
Oh. Mazogs is shit, not as impressive as I imagined it.

Hackbraten 5mo ago

I've been playing on and off for 15 years, sometimes daily for months on end. The deepest I managed to go is level 11, and as soon as I enter the Big Room, I die. In fact, I went past level 8 for the first time this year. I've read all of the NetHack wiki back and forth. I don't have the slightest idea what I'm doing wrong or how to improve. I'm 46 now, and if I continue that pace, I'll be dead before I even reach the bottom, let alone ascend.

andwaal 5mo ago
Been pkaying on and off since I was 12, 38 today.. Good times. Quick tip is to play valkyrie, dip sword for excalibur, rub any lamps and wish for sdsm, and you should be good. Also check out DCSS, amazing game, been playing for soon 40 years.
- Hackbraten 5mo ago
  I've had them all. I’ve had wands of wishing, I die. I’ve worn blessed greased amazing technicolor Valenciaga +9001 silver patent leather dragon 2x HiDPIscale mail, I die. I step in a fucking trap, I get surrounded by a dozen killer bees, I die. Soldier ant, I die.
  - andwaal 5mo ago
    Haha amazing times, just have to go at it again, and again and again.
  - chongli 5mo ago
    Good players can kill soldier ants with almost nothing, just some rocks or darts or daggers. There’s a bit of tactics to learn but the essential step is to stop bumping into enemies and learn to fight at range, use Elbereth to keep them at a distance, use doors and corridors to limit their angles of approach. Once you learn how to kill a fast enemy (like a soldier ant) without letting it fight you in melee, you become unstoppable for the first 1/3rd of the game or so. You discover that you don’t need the best armour in the game right away, you don’t even need more than a half-decent weapon, you just need to maintain your supplies of ranged weapons (and wands). Stepping in traps can also be avoided with the knowledge that (with 2 special exceptions) traps only generate in rooms, not corridors. Traps can be safely searched for from adjacent spaces and once discovered remain visible permanently. I should also point out that the two enemies you mentioned that killed you have one thing in common: poisonous sting attacks. Poison has been nerfed in the latest version (5.0) and poison resistance can be acquired in game. Furthermore, some characters actually start the game with poison resistance for free!

anthk 5mo ago

I still play Slashem daily, but vanilla Nethack it's a must because of Pratchett.

pimeys 5mo ago

Here's a good report on a completely unspoiled playthrough which was an interesting read. https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/c/wci4E96iKc4/m/FOJScF7qaHUJ?pli=1 https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/c/wc...

erickhill 5mo ago

Only Amiga makes it possible. ;)

tiahura 5mo ago

Anyone else using claude code to play nethack in a tmux pane?

blindriver 5mo ago

I've been playing this game since the mid 1980s since it was called Hack. I've only ascended twice, the last time being last year, and it required a heavy amount of cheating/saving. I guess the rest of this weekend is already accounted for.

dom96 5mo ago

Great! An excuse to play again. My favourite way to play it is using `ssh nethack@nethack.alt.org`. Don't even have to install it. Though it seems it hasn't received this update yet.

Unit327 5mo ago
ssh nethack@us.hardfought.org It has been updated, and there are also eu/au region servers.
SubiculumCode 5mo ago
Oh cool!!!

higon 5mo ago

Glad to hear it received a major update. Nethack on Slackware Linux was my childhood and has a special place in me. It taught me how to really use computers. Time to compile the source code again, folks.

big85 5mo ago

Some notable changes in 5.0.0 (spoilers abound): If a bag of holding explodes (e.g. due to putting a wand of cancellation in it), most of its items are scattered rather than lost Amnesia no longer causes you to forget maps Unicorn horns no longer restore lost attributes Valkyrie ascensions (considered the easiest) are harder: chance to receive Excalibur when dipping a longsword in a fountain is decreased if not a knight, valkyries no longer start with a longsword, valkyrie doesn't gain Stealth until level 3 You can't displace pets into polymorph traps easily to get a super pet You can apply $ to flip a coin

rirze 5mo ago
Damn they really nerfed valkyrie. I loved that class.
- jballanc 5mo ago
  For real! Valkyrie is the perfect "just bash things while only half paying attention" class. Great for when I'm playing to unwind (as opposed to playing as a challenge to myself). At least there's still Samurai.
  - chorizo 5mo ago
    That was my favorite class. Still remember the game where I mostly (t) threw my wakizashi (b) at enemies.

SubiculumCode 5mo ago

It's related to Angband, not Nethack, and the content is not as easy to view these days, but the Angband Comic strip is a true clult classic in niche humor. http://angband.calamarain.net/ http://angband.calamarain.net/

MattCruikshank 5mo ago

So, if I understand correctly, the goal is to enjoy dying thousands of times? Or, to give up and read online how to play? Or some of both?

B1FF_PSUVM 5mo ago
Die. Die better. So many clever ways to die.
Dove 5mo ago
"Every time I sat down to play [the game] it was like walking into a dark shed full of rakes, treading on one, and getting blatted in the face... and then I'd go back into the shed, thinking maybe it was just the one rake, when blat in the face again. So I thought, I'll just keep tanking the rakes and maybe I'll become psychotically in love with being rake-faced. And that's kind of what happened." Yahtzee was talking about Dark Souls, but it applies. (Vigorously NSFW, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=STrYyhEwkbY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=STrYyhEwkbY ) That said, I think Nethack is best experienced with liberal and unapologetic spoiler use.
chongli 5mo ago
The goal is to enjoy the process of discovery. These days people don’t seem to have the patience for that, or the tolerance for trial and error to achieve it. I’m not just talking about gamers, either. I have noticed a huge change with the high school students I tutor in mathematics. They have no patience for my attempts to teach them how to solve the problems, they just want the answer. Give me the answer! Now! Now! Now! Luckily they have LLMs to answer all their questions now, so only the few students who really want to learn continue to ask me questions. I digress. As for the issue of dying repeatedly, that’s a mindset thing. When I die in a game of NetHack, I take a bit of time to reflect on why I died (roughly proportional in time to how far into the game I was) then I start a new game and check out what I have. Most roles in NetHack have randomized statistics and a partly randomized starting inventory, with the Wizard being a notable extreme. This along with the first few floors of loot tend to be enough to draw me right in to the next game. Some people get seriously dejected when they die in the game. I think they’ve been trained by more modern games to see death as a flaw in the game, as though they were watching a movie and it suddenly skipped back to an earlier point (or even the very beginning). With NetHack death is a normal thing, and very frequent for new players. This is not at all atypical for the arcade games which were popular at the time of its original release in 1987. Another way to look at it is like chess: on the road to becoming a grandmaster, you can expect to lose many thousands of games. How you respond to and learn from those losses are what ultimately determine whether you reach the top of the mountain.

shanusmagnus 5mo ago

This is going to seem either beyond idiotic (which it may be) or a troll (which it is not) but: is this game actually fun? Like, if you have zero nostalgia or anything, and your evaluation of it is based solely on what it is, is it something a person in their 20s would want to play? Is it fun in a different way than, say, Dwarf Fortress is fun? (Haven't played DF but I think I understand why people do.) Would really love informed takes on this.

kibwen 5mo ago
It's complicated. The soul of Nethack is opaque design, secrets, and emergent gameplay from mechanical interactions. In theory, the best way to play Nethack is by going in completely blind ("unspoiled"), so that you maximize the sense of discovery which is its most compelling trait. But in practice, I highly doubt that anyone in human history has ever beaten Nethack without looking up any spoilers. At some point you just get frustrated, decide enough is enough, and look up whatever spoilers are necessary to beat the game. Even getting started is rough for a beginner without spoilers, but at the same time taking a spoiler-maximalist approach is probably going to result in a pretty lackluster experience. I'd say that, to some degree, roguelike game design has moved on, and when it comes to hilarity and sheer mechanical depth and breadth, games like Caves of Qud are probably better at evoking the feelings of Nethack without being so absolutely reliant on spoilers (which isn't to say that the game isn't still largely opaque, just that the essential parts are better-communicated). And on the flipside, anti-Nethacks like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup make it a design goal to be fun and playable even assuming a totally spoiled player, by focusing more on tactical and strategic decisions and being forthright about including all necessary information within the game itself.
djao 5mo ago
Nethack is what you get when you take a team of developers and have them focus on gameplay to the exclusion of all else. No graphics, music, marketing, apps, action sequences, or profit motive. Just pure gameplay, with a richness of interactions and possibilities unmatched by more polished modern games. Nethack is so well balanced that, for most players, being gifted the three most powerful items in the game from the start barely affects your winning chances. AI researchers think NetHack is interesting [1, 2]. You should too! [1] https://proceedings.mlr.press/v176/hambro22a/hambro22a.pdf https://proceedings.mlr.press/v176/hambro22a/hambro22a.pdf [2] https://arxiv.org/abs/2403.00690 https://arxiv.org/abs/2403.00690

ilaksh 5mo ago

I wonder if moving to Lua makes it easier to Hack/Mod? Maybe more easily create variations?

openjudgenoi 5mo ago

[flagged]

melasadra 5mo ago

How would you compare these to Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup (DCSS) or Tales of Majeyal (ToME).? I play tons of both games but am having difficulty settling in nethack

0rbiter 5mo ago

[dead]

seanhunter 5mo ago

As someone who hasn’t played for 20 years+ seems weird that they worry about spoilers in the release notes - back when I played literally the only way to learn certain game mechanics etc (eg the e-word) was to read the source code, and when you did that you found a bunch of things that were incredibly overpowered to the point of basically trivializing a lot of the game. (It’s been a long while but I seem to remember discovering very easy ways to find very powerful weapons and armour). It seems to me that for what I was after at the time, DCSS is actually a better nethack than nethack is in that the game is more discoverable and fair and less arbitrary.

quickthrowman 5mo ago
I started with DCSS and I played Nethack a few times. After reading some of the spoilers and realizing what I would have to memorize to win the game, I stopped playing it. DCSS focused on tactical encounters which I enjoy a lot more than reading up what word to inscribe on the floor to make myself invincible or whatever. I still enjoy the idea of Nethack, it’s very clever and incredibly deep, it’s just not for me.
chongli 5mo ago
NetHack was my very first Roguelike and I ascended for the first time in 2009. I have since gone on to play many other Roguelikes, including DCSS. I managed to win DCSS with all species, backgrounds, and gods over a period of a few years. Since then I’ve mostly lost interest in playing, and have returned to NetHack which to me feels as cozy as an old pair of slippers. With what I know of both NetHack and DCSS, I prefer NetHack these days. DCSS is very interesting, tactically, in the early game but as you go along it becomes more and more about “keep doing the thing this character is good at” and the tactical variety vanishes. NetHack isn’t a whole lot better in that regard, but NetHack isn’t purely about tactics anyway, so it matters a lot less. The Roguelike I most enjoy for its tactical prowess is Shattered Pixel Dungeon, which is far more interesting on that level. It has much more customizable characters, with talent points and a nifty scroll of upgrade system for weapons, armour, throwing weapons, wands, and rings (a system it borrowed from the game Brogue, a reimagining of the original Rogue). This character customization system is combined with a more interactive dungeon (full of traps you can trigger against monsters, spreadable water/grass/fire/poisonous gases) and a highly in-depth alchemy system that lets you recycle “junk” items into extremely useful and powerful resources. On top of all that, SPD features a challenge difficulty system with up to 9 challenges that can be toggled independently and in combination, with the full 9 challenges presenting a worthy foe even for seasoned veterans of the game.