6 ms·
A wise man from Google said in an internal memo to the tune of: "We do not have any moat neither does anyone else." Deepseek v4 is good enough, really really g
by wg0 6mo ago
A wise man from Google said in an internal memo to the tune of:
"We do not have any moat neither does anyone else."
Deepseek v4 is good enough, really really good given the price it is offered at.
PS: Just to be clear - even the most expensive AI models are unreliable, would make stupid mistakes and their code output MUST be reviewed carefully so Deepseek v4 is not any different either, it too is just a random token generator based on token frequency distributions with no real thought process like all other models such as Claude Opus etc.
- didip 6mo agoI agree. Data and userbase are still the moats. Once a new model or a technique is invented, it’s just a matter of time until it becomes a free importable library.
- kevin_thibedeau 6mo agoCan Deepseek answer probing questions about Winnie the Pooh?
- harvey9 6mo agoIs it subject to CCP censorship? Maybe.
- windexh8er 6mo agoIt's fun to pretend the US models have no censorship constraints.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- zapnuk 6mo agoUS models align with our "average" (western) values. If we outsource thinking by using LLMs, why would we outsource it to an LLM that doesn't have our values encoded in it?
- HDBaseT 6mo ago[dead]
- pimeys 6mo agoI remember asking Gemini about that one famous 9/11 joke from late Norm MacDonald and it got really iffy about answering. Told it that hey I'm not american and in our culture it's not such a taboo. But yes, they do have similar constraints.
- libertine 6mo agoAny source for this?
- windexh8er 6mo agoBasically any frontier model right now and ask it any politically divisive fact that may upset certain classes of people.
- libertine 6mo agoFor example? Because for Deepseek is pretty straightforward censorship.
- rotis 6mo agohttps://chatgpt.com/share/69f0dc83-ec70-83eb-896b-b258de2c9f33 https://chatgpt.com/share/69f0dc83-ec70-83eb-896b-b258de2c9f... https://claude.ai/share/ac4d2041-4328-4511-904a-ff8b1cbfc0bb https://claude.ai/share/ac4d2041-4328-4511-904a-ff8b1cbfc0bb Looks like self-censoring to me. Grok has no problems answering, so it is not a technical limitation: https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5_341d6428-ea7d-4b84-ad4d-8df9313478fe https://grok.com/share/bGVnYWN5_341d6428-ea7d-4b84-ad4d-8df9...
- libertine 6mo agoIt doesn't look like self censoring at all - basically you want the default behavior of llms to gamble on the ethnicity of someone based on how they look. Grok used a book as a reference. It's not like ethnicity is a fact you infer from looking at someone. Now ask Deepseek about what happened in Tiananmen Square and watch what censorship actually looks like. It literally knows the facts, but then there's a layer that prevents it from stating the facts. That's censorship. It's not an opinion, it's not a choice when facing a gradient, it's just an historical known fact.
- mgol94 6mo agoWhat are you using LLMs for? To learn about world’s politics? Oh boy I have a news for you…
- rvba 6mo agoOne of the first things I did when openAI came out was asking it "which active politican is a spy?" - and it was blocked from the start. I asked early, at the time people were posting various jailbreaks, never worked. On a side note, any self hosted model I can get for my PC? I have 96 GB of RAM.
- KronisLV 6mo ago> On a side note, any self hosted model I can get for my PC? I have 96 GB of RAM. Try the 8 bit quantized version (UD-Q8_K_X) of Qwen 3.6 35B A3B by Unsloth: https://huggingface.co/unsloth/Qwen3.6-35B-A3B-GGUF https://huggingface.co/unsloth/Qwen3.6-35B-A3B-GGUF Some people also like the new Gemma 4 26B A4B model: https://huggingface.co/unsloth/gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-GGUF https://huggingface.co/unsloth/gemma-4-26B-A4B-it-GGUF Either should leave plenty of space for OS processes and also KV cache for a bigger context size. I'm guessing that MoE models might work better, though there are also dense versions you can try if you want. Performance and quality will probably both be worse than cloud models, though, but it's a nice start!
- DANmode 6mo ago> and it was blocked from the start. Wait - what?
- petre 6mo agoYeah, I specifically asked it about it. It seemed less censored than Gemini, back when it appeared and the latter was quite useless.
- yieldcrv 6mo agoIt understands everything in thinking mode and will break down its rule system in adhering to Chinese regulation So if you or anyone passing by was curious, yes you can get accurate output about the Chinese head of state and political and critical messages of him, China and the party Its final answer will not play along If you want an unfiltered answer on that topic, just triage it to a western model, if you want unfiltered answers on Israel domestic and foreign policy, triage back to an eastern model. You know the rules for each system and so does an LLM
- djeastm 6mo agoDo you often find yourself asking your Chinese employees what they think about Winnie the Pooh?
- kdheiwns 6mo agoI can't even make American AIs say no no words. All AIs are lobotomized drones.
- dominotw 6mo agodont they have the moat of being able to test their models on billions of ppl and gather feedback.
- bauerd 6mo agoFully agree, I only pay the minimum for frontier models to get DeepSeek v4 output reviewed. I don't see this changing either because we have reached a level of good enough at this point.
- rotcev 6mo agoPS: Just to be clear - even the most expensive humans are unreliable, would make stupid mistakes, and their output MUST be reviewed carefully, so you’re not any different either. You’re just a random next-thought generator based on neuron firing distributions with no real thought process, trained on a few billion years of evolution like all other humans.
- Pfhortune 6mo agoHumans can be held accountable. States have not yet shown the will to hold anyone accountable for LLM failures.
- vanviegen 6mo agoYou're free to hold an LLM accountable in the exact same way: fire it if you don't like its work.
- jojomodding 6mo agoGiving something that has no internal concept of time (or identity for that matter) a prison sentence of n years seems kinda ineffectual.
- mapontosevenths 6mo agoThey are tools. You hold the human using it accountable. If that means it's the executive who signed the PO, so be it. Until LLM's I'd never in my life heard someone suggest we lock up the compiler when it goofs up and kills someone, but now because the compiler speaks English we suddenly want to let people use it as a get out of jail free card when they use it to harm others.
- d--b 6mo agoWe can't rule out a new innovation that makes frontier models more relevant than deepseek in 6 months. Things evolve so fast.
- bandrami 6mo agoEqually you can't rule out innovation that makes deepseek more relevant than American models
- Art9681 6mo agoWe can because the reality is that America has led in AI since the beginning and has had the best frontier models. It's not like some other country held the top spot for any given period of time. No one in Europe or China. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt if there was precedent. But the only logical position to take is the lead is widening and while most AI's will go over some threshold where it is good enough for most people, the actual frontier will remain firmly in American soil.
- worik 6mo ago> the reality is that America has led in AI since the beginning and has had the best frontier models The USA has the biggest, but there lies their disadvantage In the USA building bigger, better frontier models has been bigger data centres, more chips, more energy. China has had to think, hard. Be cunning and make what they have do more This is a pattern repeated in many domains all through the last hundred years.
- HSO 6mo agoi predict you are going to have a very hard rest of your life, trying to cope with reality or reconcile what you see with what you "think" tant pis
- hsbauauvhabzb 6mo agoBeing the front runner doesn’t automatically make you the best, that’s such an American way of thinking lol.
- pagutierrezn 6mo ago>[LLMs are just] random token generator based on token frequency distributions with no real thought ... and who knows if we, humans, are not just merely that.
- jadbox 6mo agoDeepseek v4, Qwen 3.6 Plus/Max, GLM 5+ are all pretty solid for most work.
- sexy_seedbox 6mo agoDon't forget the Kimi 2.6 as well!
- manmal 6mo agoI don’t think LLMs are that great at creating, however improved they have; I need to stay in the driver seat and really understand what’s happening. There’s not that much leverage in eliminating typing. However, for reviewing, I want the most intelligent model I can get. I want it to really think the shit out of my changes. I’ve just spent two weeks debugging what turned out to be a bad SQLite query plan (missing a reliable repro). Not one of the many agents, or GPT-Pro thought to check this. I guess SQL query planner issues are a hole in their reviewing training data. Maybe Mythos will check such things.
- TheFirstNubian 6mo agoI’m a little conflicted on this, as I see a slippery slope here. LLMs in their current state (e.g., Opus-4.7) are really good in planning and one-shot codegen, which I believe is their primary use case. So they do provide enough leverage in that regard. With this new workflow, however, we should, uncompromisingly, steer the entire code review process. The danger here, the “slippery slope,” is that we’re constantly craving for more intelligent models so we can somehow outsource the review to them as well. We may be subconsciously engineering ourselves into obsolescence.
- lazide 6mo agoSubconsciously?!?
- TheFirstNubian 6mo agoLol! Wrong choice of word, maybe. I meant to say that we don’t seem to be putting much thought into how we’re outsourcing thinking to the LLMs.
- naikrovek 6mo agoSome of us very much are, and we are ignored and/or attacked by people who don’t think about this quite often. This is such an interesting time to be in. Truly skilled developers like Rob Pike really don’t like AI, but many professional developers love it. I side with Mr. Pike on it all. I am not a skilled developer like he is, but I do like to think about what I’m doing and to plan for the future when writing code that might be part of that future. I like very simple code which is easy to read and to understand, and I try quite hard to use data types which can help me in multiple ways at once. The feeling when you solve a problem you’ve never solved before is indescribable, and bots strip all of that away from you and they write differently than I would. I don’t think any bot would ever come up with something like Plan9 without explicit instructions, and that single example showcases what bots can’t do: think about what is appropriate when doing something new. I don’t know what is right and what is wrong here, I just know that is an interesting time.
- KronisLV 6mo ago> Deepseek v4 is good enough, really really good given the price it is offered at. Do they have monthly subscriptions, or are they restricted to paying just per token? It seems to be the latter for now: https://api-docs.deepseek.com/quick_start/pricing/ https://api-docs.deepseek.com/quick_start/pricing/ Really good prices admittedly, but having predictable subscriptions is nice too!
- declan_roberts 6mo agoIt's indeed the latter. Psychologically harder for me than a $20/mo sub but still a better value for the money. I'm finding myself spending closer to $40-$60 a month w/ openrouter without a forced token break. Edit: it looks like it's 75% off right now which is really an incredible deal for such a high caliber frontier model.
- rkagerer 6mo agoNeat, dumb question - are the tokens you prepay for good forever, or do they expire? And do they provide any assurances or SLA's about speed? (i.e. that in a year they won't decide to dole out response tokens to you at a snail's pace)
- jackothy 6mo agoYou can just input your $X per month/week/whatever yourself as API credits
- kibae 6mo ago[flagged]
- hsbauauvhabzb 6mo agoThis account is clearly astroturfing.
- arcanemachiner 6mo agoAlso OpenCode Go quantizes their models pretty aggressively, from what I've heard, to the point of severe lobotomization. There's no free lunch with these cheap subscription plans IMO.
- rishabhaiover 6mo ago> just a random token generator based on token frequency distributions with no real thought process I'm not smart enough to reduce LLMs and the entire ai effort into such simple terms but I am smart enough to see the emergence of a new kind of intelligence even when it threatens the very foundations of the industry that I work for.
- teiferer 6mo ago> emergence of a new kind of intelligence Curious about your definition of these terms. Just because you are impressed by the capabilities of some tech (and rightfully so), doesn't mean it's intelligent. First time I realized what recursion can do (like solving towers of hanoi in a few lines of code), I thought it was magic. But that doesn't make it "emergence of a new kind of intelligence".
- rishabhaiover 6mo agoA recent one is the RCA of a hang during PostgreSQL installation because of an unimplemented syscall (I work at a lab that deals with secure OS and sandboxes). If the search of the RCA was left to me, I would have spent 2-3 weeks sifting through the shared memory implementation within PostgeSQL but it only took me a night with the help of Opus 4.5. To me, that's intelligence and a measurable direct benefit of the tool.
- quirkot 6mo agoBy that example, PostgreSQL itself is a form of intelligence relative to a physical filing system. It doesn't seem like your working definition of intelligence has a large overlap with a layman's conception of the word.
- filleduchaos 6mo agoPlus by that example, computers have always been intelligent considering that they were created to, well, compute things several orders of magnitude faster than even the smartest human can do by hand.
- refulgentis 6mo ago"Deepseek v4 is good enough, really really good given the price it is offered at." Kimi, MiMo, and GLM 5.1 all score higher and are cheaper. They all came out before DeepSeek v4. I think you're pattern-matching on last year's discourse. (I haven't seen other replies, yet, but I assume they explain the PS that amounts to "quality doesn't matter anyway": which still doesn't address the fact it's more expensive and worse.)
- Rover222 6mo agoThis is just starting to feel like desperation, making this claim that SOC LLMs are random token generators with absolutely no possibility of anything above that. Keep shouting into the wind though.
- wonderwallaus 6mo agoWhat a crock of bs. A brain is "just" electrochemistry and a novel is "just" arrangements of letters. The question isn't the substrate, it's what structure emerges on top of it. Anthropic's own interpretability work has surfaced internal features that look like learned concepts, planning, and something resembling goal-directed reasoning. Calling the outputs random is wrong in a specific way, the distribution is extraordinarily structured. AI will never.... Until it does.
- hansmayer 6mo ago> internal features that look like learned concepts, planning, and something resembling goal-directed reasoning. It's always so un-specific. Resembles this, seems that, almost such, danger that... A lot of magical thinking coming from AI-researchers who have hit the ceiling with a legacy technology that exists since 1940s and simply won't start reasoning on it's own, no matter how much GPUs they burn. > Calling the outputs random is wrong in a specific way, the distribution is extraordinarily structured. No, it's actually very correct in a very specific way. Ask any programmer using the parrots, and lately the "quality" has deteriorated so much, that coupled with the incoming price hikes, many will just forfeit the technology, unless someone else is carrying the cost, such as their employer. But as an employer, I also don't want to carry the costs for a technology which benefits as ever less.
- aucisson_masque 6mo agoI went and tried to debug a script. Asked deepseek 4 pro and Claude the same prompt, they both took the exact same decisions, which led to the exact same issue and me telling them its still not working, with context, over a dozen time. Over a dozen time they just gave both the same answer, not word for word, but the exact same reasoning. The difference is that deepseek did on 1/40th of the price (api). To be honest deepseek V4 pro is 75% off currently, but still were speaking of something like 3$ vs 20$.