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In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition
- storus 6mo agoSoon UK will start taxing EVs by distance driven which might offset many EV advantages and make their disadvantages more pronounced.
- ggm 6mo agoVehicles incur costs on the infrastructure as a function of their weight and usage. Petrol engines pay taxes at the pump. There is no tax hypothication in this, it goes to general revenue, but as EV rise, general tax revenue falls. The government has an obligation of sorts, to try and normalise tax collection to the model, and the model is now breaking so they need to implement something, doing nothing is not an option. It MAY make their disadvantages more pronounced, it MAY off set the specific EV advantage of operational cost compared to ICE. But, ICE are not some ground zero untaxed state, and other tax choices will alter the relative preferences and advantages AT THE TIME. You can't compare tax now to tax "then" and argue "then" was fairer, if the tax then was on Horses.
- storus 6mo agoIn other words, EVs are used in a bait-and-switch scheme. First promising lower operating costs and negative externalities, then moving to new taxes possibly progressively increasing over time past the ICE taxation, and mandatory built-in surveillance and remote control.
- ggm 6mo agoThats a very specific take on things. Nobody promised negative externalities as I understand it, I believe it was pretty clear the component of government taxation in fuel was going to have to exist somehow in this. Your "possibly increasing over time past the ICE indexation" is very cynical but I would be in the worlds of ad hom if I carried on. I don't think you are here argung in good faith, if thats your basis of reasoning. The surveillance and remote control is frankly unrelated to ICE/EV because pretty much all high end ICE cars have a SIM these days. An 11 month out account with low karma posting inflammatory responses, I would be tempted to say you're karma farming for some other outcome.
- storus 6mo ago"promising lower ... negative externalities..." I drop my HN accounts when they reach certain karma threshold so that I am not surfing on my past successes but keep relevant in the present. I think you have the collector approach instead and use it as a weapon.
- ggm 6mo ago"use it as a weapon" I do indeed filter inputs which behave like noise, on other attributes which can indicate noise. You took an adversarial and argumentative approach to an otherwise rational discussion. Asserting what I consider unfounded, and unrelated consequences in a thread. I don't expect you to consider this a negative in your own assessment of your own behaviour, I do, and I think an implied lack of introspection on your own behaviour is telling. I also take on board that my behaviour reflects on what I see and respond to, and I understand (perhaps wrongly) that you impute this to a negative outcome. We differ on that, but I admit the possibility I'm wrong and you're right. Do you do me the same charity?
- storus 6mo agoObviously; the whole point of discussing on HN is to get exposed to variety of opinions and attitudes regardless of whether I mesh with them well or not; expressing IMO founded concerns about new tech is one of the reasons for commenting.
- ggm 6mo agoFounded, not well-founded I think. I can't see the evidence of intent for what you allege. I can see stupid policy. I can see failure to deploy. But to suggest the intent is remote control or track and trace, demands a basis. Whats your reasoning beyond supposition? Why don't they e.g. do this with the BMW ICE cars which carry a SIM card? Remember its the deploying state we're talking about, not the specific risk of BYD being under control of the CCP. Your response implied all EV in the UK, are part of a plan to supervise/monitor use of EV cars, not the foreign actor risk as I understand it.
- ordersofmag 6mo agoTell me more about this scheme. If there's someone who imagines they can tax EV's more than ICE vehicles what exactly is keeping them from just making the same increase (now) on ICE vehicles? If their secret goal is to raise transportation taxes how does switching their target from ICE vehicles to EV's make that any easier? And who exactly is doing the scheming? Is it construction firms who build roads (which is my neck of the woods is where most of the gax tax ends up going). Are they the ones hatching this scheme? You'd think they'd be lobbying harder for more trucks (heavily vehicles -> more wear on the roads ->profit!). But the more big trucks people seem mostly to be the opposite of the EV people. How confusing.
- storus 6mo agoStep changes are often opportunities to introduce new unwanted features by default; see how countries switching to Euro experienced significant price increases on day 1. Policy makers often optimize to introduce new things the old market (in this case ICE) doesn't want as defaults after the change (e.g. EVs). This is like 101 of public policy.
- century19 6mo agoVehicles have road taxes. It’s a very clumbsy and annoying way the UK have planned this new tax. I hope other countries do not copy it.
- ggm 6mo agoA similar debate is happening in Australia, with the added complexities of federal vs state taxation models, and a nationally collected GST tax (VAT like) which is distributed to the states. Petrol (gas) taxation to consumers is a confusing topic with many people believing in lots of economies its a hypothicated tax, dedicated to roads and related costs. Well, it's not. It's not defined in legislation in the two economies I know of, which do this stuff. It may or may not meet road costs, or exceed road costs, or be less than road costs. In australia the only hypothicated tax, and there are disagreements about if it meets the bar or not, is the medicare levy. Everything else is consolidated revenue, no matter what you think they do with it.
- cjs_ac 6mo ago> And the presence of lower-cost alternatives can force non-Chinese brands to have to compete, rather than sitting on their laurels and gathering profits from expensive land yachts as the competition’s prices are inflated by tariffs. This is why the UK is getting Honda’s super cool Super-N, and the US isn’t. The Honda Super-N EV will also be released in Australia, New Zealand, and other countries in Southeast Asia that were also British colonies: this decision has nothing to do with tariffs and everything to do with left-hand-drive vs. right-hand-drive.
- the_sleaze_ 6mo agoNo no, that's obviously wrong. It's because the sun rises in the East much earlier than the west, it only seems like like they're getting it earlier but it's only because of the way the planet works. And the sun never sets on the British empire is why they'll be getting it.
- lmm 6mo agoIs it really that hard to produce an opposite-handed version? That sounds more like a convenient excuse.
- NamTaf 6mo agoSurprisingly. A lot of eg: aircon ducting, placement of stuff in the bonnet, dash configuration, wiring looms, is all -handed. Certainly doable but it’s a significant burden in both design effort and handling of parts/supply chain/inventory which may or may not justify it. I briefly worked on doing LHD-to-RHD car conversions and the devil was definitely in the detail.
- seanmcdirmid 6mo agoIs Honda even bothering with a LHD version of the Suoer-N? As far as I can tell, they never bother with left side versions for Kei cars, and just limit them to right side markets. It’s a pity because I always wanted a Daihatsu Copen. Well, you also see them in the Russian far east which gets a lot of used cars from Japan.
- martinald 6mo agoNot quite. The UK govt has a rolling target of how many EVs are sold as a proportion of all vehicles. The manufacturers get "fined" £15k per ICE car sold over the target. The targets are ramping up rapidly - 22% in 2024, 28% in 2025, 33% in 2026, etc, reaching 80% (AFIAK, keeps changing) in 2030. There's various trading mechanisms in place and what not so it's a bit more complicated than this. So it's far better to sell EV below cost (Chinese or not) to get more sold than have to a pay £15k for an ICE car. The Chinese manufacturers are arguably at double advantage here as they have more BEV to sell so it's far easier for them meet the targets, and they can 'sell' the excess to the Western manufacturers (and further subsidise their EVs!). I'm not personally against it, I got a brand new EV on a lease recently for close to free after all the tax advantages, and it's not like the Western manufacturers didn't have time to prepare...?
- eterm 6mo agoThe goal is to migrate everyone to EVs, and it sounds like the government incentive mechanism is working, albeit in a roundabout way.
- diath 6mo ago> The goal is to migrate everyone to EVs This won't happen unless they outright ban non-EV vehicles which is unlikely considering how many people are still using old cars and cannot afford new cars, how many car enthusiasts are there, and not to mention potential lobbying from big oil.
- triceratops 6mo agoNew EVs become used EVs that poorer people can afford. Poor people don't buy new cars. New EVs being expensive is not a poor person problem.
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- JPKab 6mo agoIt's a shame that the UK isn't making their own EVs. It's a nation with a long tradition of manufacturing and a working class hungry for opportunities. Both Labour and the Conservative parties seem to have resigned the nation to only being a financial hub.
- nickserv 6mo agoYeah they sold off pretty much their entire motor industry to the Germans (Mini, Bentley, ..), Chinese (Lotus) and Indians (Jaguar, Land Rover). Typical case of short sighted capitalism.
- Devasta 6mo agoI don't know, Stephen King couldn't write anything that matches the horror that was the management of UK car companies in the second half of the 20th century. British Leyland was a disaster from start to finish.
- hermitcrab 6mo agoBritish cars in the 70s and 80s were shockingly bad. The Austin Metro and Allegro spring to mind.
- cpursley 6mo agoWhat's funny is the new owners of MG make a pretty nice car (reliable and good looking): https://www.mgcyberster.co.uk https://www.mgcyberster.co.uk
- arjie 6mo agoBesides that flagship vehicle, their other more standard cars are also pretty good. We just returned from Hong Kong, and the cars there were the same brands we saw in South America: Maxus et al. with some MGs. To be honest, they seemed very good. Unless something is secretly wrong with them regarding safety or reliability, the American and European car industries are in huge trouble. A friend's dad just restored his ancient MG up here in California and it was funny to me to see that car and then go up to Hong Kong and see the modern incarnation of the same marque.
- nickserv 6mo agoUnlike the EU and the US, the UK doesn't have any major car companies anymore, so there's less of an incentive for them to apply tariffs on Chinese imports.
- dalyons 6mo agoSame as Australia! The rate of proliferation of Chinese EVs (and gas) there is crazy to see. Free market baby! (And before the inevitable “but Chinese subsidies” comment - update your talking points, subsidies no longer happens to any meaningful degree)
- dzhiurgis 6mo agoSame in NZ. Most popular car is Tesla + 15 different Chinese brands: https://evdb.nz/sales https://evdb.nz/sales Actually somewhat surprised we still even have legacy auto in top 10.
- graemep 6mo agoNot UK headquartered car companies, but there is a lot of car manufacturing in the UK. There is still an industry and jobs to preserve. Also, take a look at the reports on the knock on effects on suppliers of the JLR hack.
- testing22321 6mo agoMeanwhile Ford’s CEO said that if Chinese EVs are allowed into USA it will destroy the US automakers. He is not even hiding the fact US automakers make a more expensive inferior product, but that US consumers should not be allowed have the superior one.
- drstewart 6mo agoMeanwhile China does hide the fact that they block superior competition of various foreign services via the Great Firewall
- barbazoo 6mo agoOr at least to have the inferior product at a lower price.
- tshaddox 6mo agoFrom what I've seen, I have no reason to expect that a cheap new Chinese EV sold in the U.S. would be meaningfully lower quality than a cheap new American car.
- rootusrootus 6mo agoConversely, I have no reason to expect that a new Chinese EV sold in the US would be meaningfully cheaper than a new American car. At least not to the extent that China fans are dreaming about. That just is not how markets work.
- testing22321 6mo ago
- mig39 6mo agoComing to Canada soon, though in a limited way: https://nationalpost.com/news/massive-risk-chinese-evs-are-the-first-test-for-canadas-new-strategic-partnership-with-china https://nationalpost.com/news/massive-risk-chinese-evs-are-t... Hopefully this means competition with the other EV manufacturers in Canada too.
- testing22321 6mo agoFantastic. More competition and choice is always, always better for the consumer.
- jml7c5 6mo agoUnfortunately, because the number of imports is restricted the cars will likely be about as expensive as the competition. Chinese car companies have no strong incentive to undercut the market when they can take a fat margin and still sell out anyway.
- amelius 6mo agoDid anyone think of the national security implications?
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- cpursley 6mo agoCertainly typed out on a Chinese made phone...
- rationalist 6mo agoWhataboutism is not helpful.
- cpursley 6mo agoThere's nothing lazier than a whataboutism claim. If we're okay with Chinese made phones and other electronics, then let's give their cheap EVs a chance instead of worrying about a plethora of other hallucinated *isms. Anyways, if the Chinese want to hurt "US" they have plenty of other ways to go about it.
- rationalist 6mo ago> There's nothing lazier than a whataboutism claim. You're right, I guess it is only just slightly more lazy than writing the whataboutism. > if the Chinese want to hurt "US" they have plenty of other ways to go about it. Another what aboutism... Why should those other national governments move away from Microsoft, the U.S. has other ways to hurt those countries.
- ilamont 6mo agoHow does the service and support part of this work in countries that have opened the door to Chinese EVs? Do they operate like Tesla, or can indie garages handle repairs? How long are warranties?
- century19 6mo agoI think mostly like Tesla in the EU. And warranties are long, like 10 years.
- CMay 6mo ago"thanks to Chinese competition". More like anti-competitive practices. They can force down Chinese wages to keep labor costs down. They can require companies involved in component technologies to share their IP in order to do business in China, then replicate it and subsidize the hell out of it to push them not just out of China, but out of business globally. Then subsidize the whole final vertically integrated manufacturing of the end product so it's all cheaper and harder to compete with. Not very free market. It's basically military and intelligence budget combined. If you can hurt auto manufacturing, you further consolidate manufacturing inside China. Then if you can get people to pay for you to spy on them through their own cars, that's well spent intelligence budget. If you reduce the portion of global manufacturing outside of China, you reduce the amount of manufacturing that can quickly pivot to wartime production like we saw during World War 2. I'm glad that we still have sane enough people in the US that we ban these obvious and transparently bad things. It wasn't that hard to see free trade died. Hopefully people don't still think that China's green energy initiatives are about the climate. Whatever you think about those initiatives, don't let that blind you to the legitimate questions around China's motivations.
- protocolture 6mo agoHonestly chinese manufacturing doesnt look like the market you describe. If anything it looks like from the outside that working conditions, manufacturing processes and technology are all escalating. EV's in particular, their EV industry used to make terrible cars that were basically just chewing up and spitting out low quality batteries with no range. Now they are making cars that I actually want to drive. >Not very free market. It's basically military and intelligence budget combined. If you can hurt auto manufacturing, you further consolidate manufacturing inside China. Then if you can get people to pay for you to spy on them through their own cars, that's well spent intelligence budget. If you reduce the portion of global manufacturing outside of China, you reduce the amount of manufacturing that can quickly pivot to wartime production like we saw during World War 2. The most dangerous nation on the planet, that threatens everyones national security is the USA. And thankfully we averted this risk by basically demolishing their car industry. Its honestly asias gift to the planet. China cant project power anywhere nearly as well as the US, so on balance, they are vastly the more preferable partner for this data. >I'm glad that we still have sane enough people in the US that we ban these obvious and transparently bad things. Lmao. Freedomburgerland summed up in one sentence. >Hopefully people don't still think that China's green energy initiatives are about the climate. Chinas green energy initiatives are both soft power, and sustainability for a massive population. They only care about the environment as far as it impacts on them economically. >don't let that blind you to the legitimate questions around China's motivations. China is the most stable superpower we have. We are right to be suspicious, but honestly the century of American humiliation is playing out pretty well for them without them having to do much of anything.
- muyuu 6mo agoThe treatment of our betters regarding "nudged" electrification is borderline misanthropic. For people with a garage or a driveway who can charge at home, EVs are overwhelmingly a better option. The problem is that large swathes of the population are outside of that and you're making their lives miserable by punishing ICE car ownership. Meanwhile, adoption numbers are thrown about ignoring that for those in optimal conditions, adoption is already very high and cannot grow much more. While for those particularly misaligned with the strengths of EVs, it will often be so painful to own one they will resist with everything they have, and in many cases they will have to admit defeat and stop driving altogether. Which I guess the government will also be content with. But it will take some time. *typo
- Thlom 6mo agoEh. A new EV can drive 400-700km on one charge. It takes 20-60 minutes to charge on public chargers depending on the charger. Except that charging on public charges is more expensive than charging at home I don't really see the practical issue. I know many people without charging options at home that will never go back to ICE.
- muyuu 6mo agoExcept availability of chargers is spotty in most of the country, and charging prices so high that the running expenses are considerably higher. Not even considering insurance, which is also a killer. Been there. Second hand EVs devaluation is not a product of anecdote. It reflects the current state of the market. They are a different product and they're great at what they do. In fact, for those in the market for them, "nudging" (state coercion) is not necessary at all.
- Barrin92 6mo ago>Except availability of chargers is spotty in most of the country, the UK is a small country. The average British driver drives 20-30km per day. One full EV charge almost gets you through England South to North. If you're putting a bunch of charging stations next to workplaces for people to charge once or twice per week that's going to cover most drivers.
- dzonga 6mo ago> Consumers accept that they can pay more for a better product, so when you compare a Model 3 to an ICE BMW 3 series, and they’re similar in price, but the Model 3 offers better technology and drive characteristics, then on balance you’re getting a better deal with the Model 3. statements like these are what turn some people away. cz they're not sincere. you can easily compare the costs between models within a manufacturer - BMW ICE version vs Electric version & on a head to head basis the old guard of auto makers e.g BMW, Mercedes make better vehicles than Tesla.
- rootusrootus 6mo agoTesla has been cutting features, too. You can't even get lane keeping anymore unless you pay $99/mo for FSD. Lane keeping is a basic feature even available on the base model of some economy cars, so for the supposedly 'premium' Tesla to drop it is an interesting choice.
- eucryphia 6mo ago“Thanks to CCP money printing” FIFY.
- g8oz 6mo agoAmerica has printed plenty of money and don't have much to show for it
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- renewiltord 6mo agoUK stats are bogus because one in five new cars there are paid for by the government under the Motability scheme. What it actually costs is hard to say because we don't know where they're measuring the price at. Motability could have an agreement, or they might be not counting the motability money spent and so on.
- youngtaff 6mo agoNope… People who receive PIP can choose to use to lease a car from Motability which is an independent scheme Those people could equally choose to have an ICE car
- ab_testing 6mo agoJust to give you an idea of what it costs to lease an EV in the UK. I use lingcars often for pricing and it is peanuts compared to the US. https://www.lingscars.com/car-lease-deals/?fuelTypes=electric https://www.lingscars.com/car-lease-deals/?fuelTypes=electri...
- Arbortheus 6mo agoDid lingscars get rid of their crazy website?
- youngtaff 6mo agoYes… but (from memory) someone recreated it but can remember who
- yanhangyhy 6mo ago[dead]
- aunty_helen 6mo agoFor anyone who hasn't been in a BYD, maybe because their government protects them from the open market, I'm sorry. It's over. We lost.
- izacus 6mo agoI've been in one and it's kinda meh? Its fine for what it is, but it's also filled with buggy bizarre issues on a level of VW ID.3 and doesn't match up with even something basic like latest Peugeot models.
- schnitzelstoat 6mo agoMeanwhile in the EU, Chinese EVs face crippling tariffs that make them totally unaffordable.
- gib444 6mo agoWhich EU countries? I see LOADS of them as taxis in Spain, for example
- Sweepi 6mo agoEU-wide tariffs: 10% on any imported car and an additional.. BYD: 17% Geely Group: 19% SAIC Group: 35% Tesla (Shanghai): 8% XPeng, Nio, ...: 21% Others: 35% [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/china/eu-tariffs-imports-china-made-evs-2026-02-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/eu-tariffs-imports-china... [2] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L_202402754 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=OJ:L...
- schnitzelstoat 6mo agoI live in Spain. I think the ones you see here are likely hybrids as there is little/no EV infrastructure here and the hybrids are exempt from the tariffs (for now). I can't remember if plug-in hybrids are exempt as well or only conventional hybrids.
- gib444 6mo agoI think I may have misremembered. It was only in Alicante than almost all my app-ordered taxis were BYD (fully electric, definitely not hybrid) Loads of Teslas and BYD in Lisbon too
- gib444 6mo agoOf course EVs are perhaps a net benefit to society (noise, pollution etc) but at least be honest about the cost trajectory. Any article that doesn't mention the cost of motorway/dual carriage way electric charging is being disingenuous. PAYG is 75-90p/kWh currently. Tesla superchargers with a subscription 57p/kWh (you'll pay with time, due to being busy) And do you think when EV ownership becomes more popular, the 4p/kWh home charging rate is going to stick around? That is an insane discount compared to daytime electricity. The UK does not have a good, cheap solution plentiful cheap electric in the next decade or two, so any major increase in demand will mean even higher costs.
- youngtaff 6mo ago> The UK does not have a good, cheap solution plentiful cheap electric in the next decade or two, so any major increase in demand will mean even higher costs. Of course it does… the UK has tariffs that change by electricity demand and supply capacity As we build out more renewables there will be more times of excess supply and hence cheaper electricity during these times The buildout of battery storage and north-south inter-connectors will reduce this fluctuation but it’ll still be there Over time the UK is going to switch it’s pattern of electricity consumption
- gib444 6mo agoThe old "cheaper electricity is coming due to renewables, any day now" An almost guaranteed reply
- canbus 6mo agoRight, brand new. But I think if the UK government want everyone to be using EVs they really need to help out the used market by incentivising it in some way. I can't get much other than a Nissan leaf or Renault Zoe under £10k second hand, or some massive SUV which I don't want. So then I'll buy an ICE powered car instead...