12 ms·

The amount of crap Windows users have to put up with is incredible

408 points by dendory 14y ago

purplelobster 14y ago
And this is why I'd prefer to buy a laptop or tablet directly from Microsoft. OEMs are doing an increasingly bad job, with everything from hardware to software. The exception I can see is Lenovo, which is the only OEM I'd buy anything from.
- ygra 14y ago
  A fresh install of Windows is about 10 minutes from a USB thumb drive, which is not much longer than unboxing the computer, I guess. At least that's how I solved that problem usually ;)
funkwyrm 14y ago
I know it is the deep dark valley of obvious, but this is why we use macs.
- qu4z-2 14y ago
  I don't use macs because I have yet to see one with a nipple mouse/TrackPoint. The hardware uniformity has upsides and downsides.
aristidb 14y ago
And I fear this kind of crappy PC experience is a significant factor in why many people move to primarily using tablets.
- tsm 14y ago
  The problem with mobile devices is that when they are prefilled with OEM crap (mine came with Motoblur, Blockbuster, and several other terrible media-streaming apps), there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Windows may have a terrible default experience, but at least it's fixable.
  - aristidb 14y ago
    OK, admittedly the fact that I stick to Google Nexus and Apple brand kind of makes me oblivious to the existence of all that crapware. But as far as I can tell, some people actually like what HTC and Samsung are doing with their Android.
    - nsp 14y ago
      The customizations that people like on android phones are usually the skins - touchwiz on htc phones and sense on samsung's. Many fewer people use/like the Verizon-specific app store or V-cast or whatever their proprietary video service is called these days, which are more directly equivalent to the crapware referred to in the article.
      - tsm 14y ago
        Every time I try to launch the turn-by-turn GPS on my Verizon Droid2, I get prompted to use vanilla Navigator or some Verizon crapware. Checking the box to make one the default does nothing. This is absurd.
    - mogrim 14y ago
      Go on then, tell me how I can uninstall Facebook and Google Goggles from my Nexus One? (Slightly tongue-in-cheek - my Nexus One is nothing like as bad as my Galaxy Tab for crapware that comes pre-installed.
  - npsimons 14y ago
    You have heard of rooting and using something like TitaniumBackup to force remove apps, right? And of course, there's always the option of going with the clean versions direct from Google.
    - tsm 14y ago
      With my particular phone (Droid2 Global) you can't root if you've upgraded to 2.3. Nor can you downgrade to 2.2 and then root. Basically I'm just stuck on castrated Gingerbread for the life of the phone.
jerhewet 14y ago
> The first step was getting rid of the usual pre-installed crap [...] It took me over an hour to go through all the uninstallers. I was at least three sentences into a long "Uninstallers? Seriously?" rant when I realized that this is exactly what the average poor bastard on the street would do if they wanted to get rid of the crapware that infests a new machine. [long thoughtful pause] Jesus. It really is that big of a divide. I never (never, never, ever, ever) boot up a new machine. I always nuke-n-pave it right out of the box. I don't even give it any thought -- it's just the way it is. [another long thoughtful pause] Then again, this is a problem for my generation, where one in one hundred (maybe more) had half a clue when it came to personal computers. I'd like to think the "run the uninstaller" route is also not an option for kids in their 20's and 30's (get off my lawn!). I'd like to think the ratio is closer to one in three or four, and installing a virgin copy of your OS of choice on a new machine is just as much a habit for them as it is for me. So I guess I'm left wondering if I'm reading a rant from the late 1990's.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  It's not always so easy to just nuke-n-pave a new machine unless you are planning on installing Linux or happen to have a vanilla copy of Windows with the correct service pack for the OEM license key for your PC hanging around. I bought a cheap Sony laptop a few years back, came with Vista and all of this shit pre-installed. The only provided way to re-install the OS was via a "recovery" DVD which puts all this shit right back on. So I uninstall all of this stuff and it occasionally gives me errors complaining that it's missing various things that it expects to be there, so obviously even the uninstall doesn't quite work properly.
- recursive 14y ago
  So where do you get a virgin copy of Windows without paying for it again?
  - jerhewet 14y ago
    http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/software-os/w/microsoft_os/3316.2-1-microsoft-windows-7-official-iso-download-links-digital-river.aspx http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/software-os/w/mi... These ISO's should work on any machine as long as you have a valid Windows 7 Product Key. I've always bought at least one OEM copy of Windows, or purchased upgrade copies when a new version is released. I picked up three copies of the Windows 7 DVD set (x32 and x64) for $40 each on Amazon, and you can pick up ISO's of Windows 8 directly from Microsoft for $40 a pop. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/buy?ocid=GA8_O_WOL_Hero_Home_FPP_Null http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/buy?ocid=GA8_O_WO...
givan 14y ago
Not computer users, just the windows users. I never understood the install wizards for windows software, in 99% of the time you just click "next" until it stops asking for more "next". And now they all sneak garbage adware with the check boxes enabled by default because most people just click "next" anyway. Also the whole download and install drivers/utilities etc after installation is very time consuming because the OS has almost nothing bundled and what is bundled is MS only like internet explorer, nothing you can choose in that "next" wizard. Windows is like a granny in the OS world, she needs to retire.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  >I never understood the install wizards for windows software, in 99% of the time you just click "next" until it stops asking for more "next". Well, if you use the Windows Store to get applications, you can finally get rid of them. >the OS has almost nothing bundled Really? Windows 8, for instance, comes with much of what you'd need. It's bundles a lot more than previous versions of windows >nothing you can choose in that "next" wizard. I'm not quite sure what this means.
  - givan 14y ago
    >I'm not quite sure what this means. I was referring to the fact that Microsoft does not bundle multiple browsers to choose from and forces everyone to have IE installed and unfortunately most users don't understand what a browser is to fix this. And this is the reason web developers had nightmares with IE6 in the past and some still have with IE7.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
      Microsoft shouldn't bundle multiple browsers. Now, I can see your point that they don't exactly provide others (except in the EU)... but I'm not sure this is really such a bad thing.
    - gizmo686 14y ago
      What operating system does bundle multiple browsers?
ejreynolds 14y ago
Agreed that the base installs are rubbish. But clean install of Windows 7 or 8 + ninite.com. Windows generally has the drivers you need out of box, or at least the NIC / wireless driver so Windows update can find the rest for you, automatically. I can't remember the last time I had to manually get a driver for something, with the single exception of a USB to serial adapter I need for work.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  Windows 8 has a factory reset button... this would be a great option, except I expect that on retail systems it would reinstall the crapware. Or maybe not?
- amboar 14y ago
  In addition to ninite, pcdecrapifier[1] is also handy, even for cleaning machines that aren't brand new. Doesn't look like it supports windows 8 yet though. [1] http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/ http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/
- CountSessine 14y ago
  A lot of laptops are different. The Lenovo T520 I'm using right now has an ethernet chip that the OEM version of Windows 7 couldn't figure out, and I had to track what the chip was before I could get on the internet. So it isn't all roses in the Windows world with drivers. At least there was a driver, though.
karpathy 14y ago
I feel that this is one of the major reasons I find myself using tablets more often. The UX on PCs has turned to crap. All programs want to run in the background, they all compete for my attention every 30 minutes, they all want to be updated all the time and they all want to install some stupid toolbar into my browser that you can't remove, or even if you do it will somehow come back. Installing new programs has turned into a 10-minute minigame of "spot the checkbox that screws up your computer deep in the Custom Install settings!". Or sometimes I have to re-read a question in a randomly intruding dialog box 5 times just to figure out if I should answer Yes or No to their vague question for them to just please leave my computer alone. It's extremely annoying. I also can't remember the number of times I've cleaned up my msconfig startup. The programs just magically insert themselves back somehow over time. It's infuriating and exhausting. I feel protected on my iPad from this torture.
- ajross 14y ago
  There are other perspectives, though. I've been on a Linux desktop almost exclusively for 19 years now. I continue to be amazed at the amount of spammy crap I have to put up with on my phone and tablet (running CM10 and stock 4.0.2 respectively, so it's not like I'm beholden to a manufacturer). Seems like every game wants to tell me about new features in the status bar every day. All the online services want to connect me to all the others. Every day or so some app has an "upgrade" available that inexplicably needs new permissions authorized. And frankly it seems to be getting worse. And my desktop distro just goes on, doing what it's supposed to do, year after year.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > And my desktop distro just goes on, doing what it's supposed to do, year after year. What distro are you using? Because not all of them are free of this sort of crap. For example, Canonical decided to pollute the universal search in Unity, starting with Ubuntu 12.10, by adding in results from Amazon.
RyJones 14y ago
Unfortunately, the profit in those laptops comes from the shovel ware, so there's no incentive for OEMs to sell a pro-user experience.
- eli 14y ago
  At one point Sony offered a $50 fee to get your new PC with a "fresh" install. Unfortunately that was a tough sell from a marketing perspective.
- rhplus 14y ago
  Microsoft got the message and their retail stores only sell computers as "Microsoft Signature", i.e. no crapware. http://signature.microsoft.com/ http://signature.microsoft.com/
  - RyJones 14y ago
    I was unaware! thanks for the pointer.
  - hxc 14y ago
    All PCs sold at Microsoft Store come with Microsoft Signature – a great way to get the most out of Windows.
    - ilaksh 14y ago
      "a great way to get the most out of Windows" Is that marketing speak for no crap/bloat/shovelware?
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I enjoyed this rant. The bottom line is that this 'experience' isn't about you, its about who you can be sold too. That is because "you" are too cheap to pay what "we" think should be paid for them. It is like a hotel which sells you room for $100 a night if you agree to let them leave a web cam on 24/7 and sell any useful 'snippets' it catches while you are there. The bulk of the market doesn't buy "computers" they buy "televisions." Think about that for a minute. The bulk of the market are entertainment 'consumers' for which you can sell access to their eyeballs for real money. Just like TV did before people got digital recorders and started skipping all the ads. Not so with these new fangled TVs, they don't care if you don't look at their advertising they want to know what you did look at, and when, and after what, and then what did you do? Because all of that is much more valuable than putting up a tasty picture of a cheeseburger in front of you, no, they can phone ahead to your local market and tell them to stock up on cheeseburgers because you've been researching them all day and are now at the point where you want to make a purchase. But the cool thing? It means that the current 'big' players are leaving the market for computers behind. You can tell that by the fact that the computer company no longer sells a product that a developer would care to use. And that means that there is room again at the bottom. Time to start a 'developers' company that works very much on the same model that Sun Microsystems started on, hardware designed from the ground up to be developed on, open systems so that folks can easily work with it, and a team dedicated to making sure integration and support is there so that folks like you and I can say "Hey this audio doesn't work when you set the sampling rate to 40Khz" and they can fix it and release that fix. But for that company to exist, you have to pay for the products you use, and to get to that point you have to not be able to get something 'good enough' by hacking and slashing something else into shape.
- oscilloscope 14y ago
  System76 is attempting to do this. I liked the Gazelle Professional. Considering they're not an ODM, the Gazelle was pretty decent for its specs and screen when it was released. There was no bloat aside from vanilla Ubuntu, except a driver to improve the screen brightness buttons. Still though, you can always throw Ubuntu on a Thinkpad. A small company like System76 can't match the form factor and battery life of products from Lenovo, Apple, Samsung, etc.
makeset 14y ago
The pleasure of uninstalling with a Delete keystroke is reason enough to move to MacOS. Say what you will against Apple, but I have been just plain peaceful ever since I smashed my blue-screened Windows laptop on the wall and walked out to buy a Mac years ago.
- SquareWheel 14y ago
  Sounds like you'd enjoy Metro.
  - 89a 14y ago
    if you can figure out how to uninstall things in it
unimpressive 14y ago
I remember reading that this is the reason[2] Steve Jobs wouldn't license the Mac OS X operating system to other OEM vendors. As I understand it, a good deal of this crap is caused by misaligned incentives. Software companies pay OEMs to preload computers with their buggy, invasive, resource hogging software. Thanks to the Microsoft Windows operating system having all sorts of nooks and crannies to hide this sort of stuff in, like msconfig; the "PC", with which Windows is synonymous, is seen as a painful platform full of crashes and arcane bullshit. Of course, the cure is presented in the form of locked down, proprietary platforms which shelter users from software companies self inflicted wounds. As times goes on; these platforms will slowly come to resemble their former counterparts, but without the relief of being able to uninstall the crapware. I think that priority one for people interested in the future of computing is to fix the experience for the 99%. EDIT: The answer isn't necessarily other open systems like Linux or Haiku, OEM manufacturers can screw the default installs on those systems up just as well. EDIT[2]: Part of the reason anyway.
- mhurron 14y ago
  > the reason Steve Jobs wouldn't license the Mac OS X operating system to other OEM vendors The reason Jobs didn't license out OS X is because the last time Apple did that it almost killed the company. One of the first things Jobs did on returning to Apple was end those agreements.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Do you have a source for that? My recollection was that Apple was in dire straits at the time anyhow, but that the clone makers were substantially increasing MacOS shipments at a time when Apple was threatened with irrelevancy. I thought Jobs killed the clones because he wanted absolute control, which he saw as necessary to pursue his goals for a high-end, seamless experience.
    - zemanel 14y ago
      good thing he didn't. one of the reasons i enjoy working on OSX is the "mintness" i got accustomed from using Linux
ROFISH 14y ago
Note this is an aside on USEFUL background apps, not spyware/crapware, since it appears he disabled the update mechanisms in the last two paragraphs: Most of those background service apps (Google Update, Apple Push, Adobe Update) are because a tiny background app is necessary to preform certain functions, and check for updates in the background, which is a good thing! For example, 'iTunesAgent.exe' on Windows was to simply detect if you had plugged an iPod in and auto pop-up iTunes. For usability, it makes sense; because otherwise you would plugin an iPod and get nothing or a confusing Windows 'dunno what to do with this drive' screen. And because of Windows' architecture (for better or worse), it requires a background app to do this. The same for many of the updaters. I would much rather be sure Flash and Java are updated then go running without an important security update. I still have yet to understand the "no background app, good or bad" manifesto. Good background apps barely use any CPU time, they barely use any memory (and Windows reports too much memory in the first place due to shared memory), and preforms useful functions.
- yxhuvud 14y ago
  Actually it is a bad thing since system updates should be a centralized feature and not something that should need to be reinvented (badly) by every other program you install.
- SquareWheel 14y ago
  In cases of useful background apps (and there are few), they should be run from the Windows scheduler. They don't need to always be running. Why do we need 30 individual software update checkers running anyway? Linux solved this problem many years ago.
- npsimons 14y ago
  There's a difference between "background app that quietly does it's job and stays out of the way" and "holy fuck, what the hell is using all twelve cores and 8gigs of RAM and making Google take 30seconds to load!?" Running your software on my hardware is a privilege; don't abuse it, and I won't delete your oh-so-important-crapware. That includes not nagging me to update and/or register.
EvanAnderson 14y ago
My experience, as of late, is that HP is pretty bad when it comes to shipping machines with pre-loaded crap. Dell and Lenovo business-oriented computers ship fairly clean, but HP business-oriented machines ship with loads of crapware. All consumer-oriented machines ship with crap.
haldean 14y ago
For users that want to just use the internet like the author of this article, I think that Chromebooks are quickly becoming a really great option. No crapware, comes with what you need to get online and nothing more, tons of battery life, tiny startup time. It fits the "I just want a dumb terminal for the web" model perfectly.
dendory 14y ago
A few added things: - To those suggesting using Linux, I use Windows because I need to. I run programs that require Windows, and don't really want to start messing with Wine. Also, from seeing the recent Ubuntu stories here on HN, it really does seem like the people behind Ubuntu and Gnome in particular are guilty of the same thing with their "brand" - While Apple probably doesn't do this on MacOS they sure do try to get your email to sign you up to "offers" when you download QuickTime.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  It would be interesting to see the list (or at least types) of programs you use that require Windows. I've got a CAD program that I've been using forever that does (TurboCAD) and I'm more facile in Corel Draw than Inkscape (which is horribly, horribly under-performing on the same hardware booted into Ubuntu 12.10).
  - tarabukka 14y ago
    Does Corel Draw use some kind of graphics hardware acceleration (e.g. Direct2D)? I find that GTK software completely ignores hardware accelerated rendering most of the time; Cairo (which renders most of the GNOME UI now) is pretty much completely a software renderer, and the GNOME 3 desktop only uses OpenGL for window compositing, not most drawing, as far as I'm aware.
    - ChuckMcM 14y ago
      Coincidentally perhaps, both Corel and TurboCAD use accelerated graphics for rendering.
  - randomchars 14y ago
    For many this list has just one item: - Adobe Photoshop If you rely on it for work, than you can't just switch to Linux. GIMP is closer to paint than to PS.
    - acheron 14y ago
csense 14y ago
This is a great reason to switch to Linux Mint.
- tosseraccount 14y ago
  Agreed. Just set up dual boot Linux/Windows. One great thing about Linux is you can tell kids "download whatever you want". For those few times you need Windows (TurboTax), you can boot it. Other than that the only good thing about Windows is Excel which is much better than OpenOrifice or gnumeric. I'll grant that the professional image editing software is better too, but Gimp is fine when you get used to it. For surfing, listening to music, youtubeing, etc. , Linux seems a lot snappier.
  - pjmlp 14y ago
    > "download whatever you want" Sure, because it is always nice to expose $HOME to the world.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
scott_meade 14y ago
iPad FTW.
beloch 14y ago
First of all, this guy's biggest mistake was failing to format his drive and start with a clean Windows install. Installing windows requires far less effort than cleansing a vendor's install of crapware. Users should not have to do this. I must fully agree that MS needs to start restricting what Vendors like HP can install on the PC's they sell. Second, I'm very curious to see how the Windows App store plays out. The #1 thing it needs to do to improve Windows as an OS is distribute free software. There is a lot of excellent free software available for windows like chrome, firefox, VLC, foobar2000, texmaker, Notepad++, uTorrent, etc.. Users have to go to different websites to download everything. This is such a pain that people have come up with installers, like ninite, that aggregate free software together into a single download. Ninite doesn't have everything I use, but it can easily shave hours off of setting up a new Windows box! One major advantage of an App store is that software distributed through it can be policed for malware and viruses. If MS could get users to use their store as much as possible there is the potential to improve security of the OS. The only way MS can do this is to build their store up as a trusted and comprehensive distribution center that is all most users need. MS should view it as a failure on their part whenever users are forced to go elsewhere to get software, even software that competes with Microsoft products or which duplicates core functionality of the OS. That's where Apple's App store failed! In order to do this, MS needs to devote resources to lowering the barrier to publication in their store. Don't get me wrong, I am dead-set against Windows moving towards an entirely walled-garden iOS style ecosystem. The ability to install software from outside the store should be preserved, nor should it be limited in any way. However, I would welcome a central distribution point for Windows software like what Linux has. Debian's APT package management system is brilliant. Even 10 years ago it would have made today's Apple App store look sad and pathetic. It is both comprehensive and incredibly smart in how it makes software modular with clear dependencies that are managed automatically for the user. This is the dream that all application stores should aspire towards. Redmond and Cupertino, for the love of your users, please start your copiers.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  As I mentioned elsewhere, doing a clean Windows install is difficult if the only means of reinstallation you have is the bundled "recovery DVD" which puts all of the shit right back on there. With regards an APT for Windows, I don't see how that wouldn't be possible to add to Windows as a third party thing. With a nice GUI and search and a default catalog of quality mainly OSS software with no toolbars or BS and have it also keep everything upto date. That way you could just install it on all of your relatives who use Windows's computers and tell them just to download everything from either that or the MS app store.
jodrellblank 14y ago
And the first reply is "use linux". To a post about "usability problems people have to put up with because authors care more for their ideas than user experience". Linux. Famed for choosing choice over usability and ideology over usability almost to the point of absurdity.
- contextfree 14y ago
  Usability is, ultimately, relative to the user.
- likeclockwork 14y ago
  Usability doesn't mean ease of use.
- qu4z-2 14y ago
  That was a lot more true in the past, 'though I admit traces of it remain.
kenjackson 14y ago
Why doesn't the author just pay the non-subsidized price and get a clean Signature machine from Microsoft? http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/en_US/pd/productID.235559700 http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/en_US/pd/product... I suspect that while he doesn't like the crapware, he doesn't mind the $75 subsidy. You really can't have it both ways.
- maurits 14y ago
  So perhaps the real surprise is, is that despite the rather vocal apple/linux crowd, there is still a very large user group for which the crapware-OEM bundles are not big enough an issue to switch or to act up on. Be it for technical or for economical reasons.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    I think it's just that many people aren't aware that there is an alternative. I'm surprised the number of people who consider a browser that takes 30 seconds to start (on an i5) as normal. No wonder they are awed by an iPad when they use one.
- tl 14y ago
  From your link: "To install Windows 8 Pro upgrade, customers must be running Windows XP SP3, Windows Vista, or Windows 7." What I don't see is a way to buy a non-upgrade version at a sane price ($69 vs. $199) if I want to run a clean version of Windows on the desktop I built. Said desktop is running linux and my primary interest would be running it on virtualbox, but that's neither here not there.
- _delirium 14y ago
  You can also get non-crapware machines if you buy from most OEMs' "small business" divisions.
jiggy2011 14y ago
This is one of the reasons I like running Linux, although this is really mainly a feature of having a smaller userbase and being mainly OSS so it is less of a target for this BS. The only alternative for the mainstream seems to be the sandboxed type approach of iOS/WinRT. Oh, some developers abuse browser toolbars? No browser toolbars period! Background processes can make your system slower? No background processes period! Software from random websites can be viruses? Buy all of your software from us!
- bo1024 14y ago
  Yeah, as a Linux user this article was just a list of reasons not to go back to Windows. It does seem ironic that the product you pay for is far more anti-consumer than the free (in both senses) alternative. But I don't think that fact can be denied.
  - zanny 14y ago
    It is inherently anti-consumer by being non-free software. Honestly, the FSF did call this crap, for all those who call them insane. They are insane, but they are sensibly insane.
- pjmlp 14y ago
  Just wait until OEMs start shipping their own distributions...
motters 14y ago
The first thing to understand is that this isn't a problem with contemporary computing per se, it's a problem with Microsoft Windows and its software ecosystem.
- pjmlp 14y ago
  Any ecosystem that has OEMs: - Symbian - Android - Linux distributions on netbooks - ...
  - motters 14y ago
    Yes, this might be a problem with proprietary software more generally - that it ultimately ends up trying to strongarm or "hard sell" the user rather than merely trying to meet their requirements.
revelation 14y ago
I had a good laugh at people recommending Ubuntu. I recently installed the very latest Ubuntu on a VM, started the launcher, typed "terminal" ... and looked in utter disbelief as it started showing me random movies and crap from Amazon. If that is your idea of a better operating system, try again.
- uniclaude 14y ago
  I'm not an ubuntu defender but honestly, aren't a couple Amazon ads better (or let's call it less bad) than all the crapware OP talks about? We are talking 1 command against hours of fight against a whole system.
  - TeMPOraL 14y ago
    I think I'd rather stay with crapware. Companies, I don't care about your offers. When I will want to buy something, I'll Google myself a better deal. Damn, it's just so wrong...
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    Yes, certainly. I dimly remember HP as being a particularly cruddy install. The Amazon search in Unity home lens (where you go to launch programs &c) is attempting to be a dynamic search so that results narrow as you type. Network latency means it sort of 'jumps' in groups of letters. Sometimes results corresponding to part of the words you type appear. This can produce 'interesting' results. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2063868 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2063868
- ps258 14y ago
  Maybe fedora would work better for you. Or debian. Or one of the numerous Ubuntu spins which do not have ads. The point is that there will always be a Linux distribution which focusses on the user because a lot of them are made by community
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  I have a good laugh at people that dismiss an entire OS for a problem solved with 10 seconds and 20 characters of effort.
wbizzle 14y ago
The title of this article should really be changed to "The amount of crap WINDOWS users have to put up with is incredible". I remember back 5-6 years ago when I had to go through all of the above. But if the writer is tired of these things, he should just pony up the dough and get a mac.
- qu4z-2 14y ago
  But then he'd have to use a mac. He may have existing legacy software that he needs to run, or may simply dislike the mac UX (I for one can't stand it, although I like some of the underlying tech). Besides, I'm finding it increasingly morally indefensible to purchase Apple products.
megaman821 14y ago
The real answer is stop buying those machines loaded with crap-ware. The Microsoft Store sells various computers free from all the crap-ware. Also some manufacturers are good about keeping the extra software to a minimum and even offering a clean restore disk.
codgercoder 14y ago
Your real problem is that you think you own your computer (err, software delivery appliance). I actually think PCs have become like MTV. MTV was a way to get all the people who like music and video onto a channel, then deliver all kinds of content (IE ads) that the advertisers think would be appropriate for them.
ixacto 14y ago
This is why people like macs. Apple should block google ads in safari though, that would really make things interesting.
Auguste 14y ago
The easiest way to deal with this crap is just to do a fresh install of Windows when you buy a new PC, and download the drivers from the manufacturer's website. That way you can be sure that it's as clean an install as you can get. Unfortunately, this is complicated by the fact that manufacturers don't ship Windows discs. I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, but perhaps Windows 8's built-in restore feature will be the solution to this problem.
rcb 14y ago
After almost 20 years of running Linux, FreeBSD (and even NextStep!) on x86 bare metal, I've for the time being gone back to Windows. It's a fast dual-head box. One screen is all Windows (and I'm typing this from IE 10), and the other is xmonad and emacs on Arch Linux on VirtualBox. I'm also an Apple user (and AAPL shareholder), owning two (2010 and 2011 model) MBPs, and it is my opinion that Windows 8 is gorgeous and very, very stable. Microsoft has finally simplified the desktop experience, with sane security defaults, and in my opinion are very close if not at par with Mountain Lion on ease of use and attention to detail. Finally, the system's performance as a desktop machine is at least %25 better than Unity/Gnome 3/KDE, and the overall fit and finish is years ahead of any leading open source DE. It was the Desktop Linux experience that has encouraged me to look elsewhere. I'd encourage everyone to keep an open mind wrt MSFT. They're on the right track. This is not the same company I grew up hating.
- genwin 14y ago
  Your setup is close to mine, which is Win 7 running VirtualBox and Linux Mint. I've not used a Mac. I like developing with Linux. A friend recommends ditching my double-OS setup in favor of Apple. My question to you is, why don't you use only Apple / Mountain Lion? Why bother with Win 8?
  - dualogy 14y ago
    If you like to combine the Win desktop environment with the Linux dev environment, other than VirtualBox you could also check out MinGW if you haven't yet.
- kxs 14y ago
  Although I haven't tried Windows 8 yet, I had the same experience using Windows 7. It's interesting that only 7 years ago you probably wouldn't have be able to sit me in front of a Windows machine without resistance or at least some complaining. Since then I turned out to be a frequent defender of Microsoft in my surroundings and I'm considering ditching my Apple ecosystem for Windows 8 (esp. because of Surface and Windows Phone 8). But the real problem, as have stated other, is OEM software and 3rd-party-apps. It takes effort to maintain your system (although not much, at least in my opinion, but you have to pay attention to, for example, what is installed along the way). I usually have none of the problems my peers or friends have (with Windows) and if you look at their machine, you'll see why. Almost every time I visit my father, there is a new (worthless) toolbar installed.
macspoofing 14y ago
Microsoft should do what Google does with Android and release a clean 'reference' system without all the 3rd party crap-ware.
- sch1zo 14y ago
  you do know Microsoft sells plain Windows, do you?
  - sbuk 14y ago
    A reference machine...
    - sch1zo 14y ago
      Microsoft does that too. AFAIK their Signature Line is exactly that http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/list/parentCategoryID.44066900/categoryID.50787200 http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/list/parentCateg... Our carefully selected PCs provide the cleanest Windows 8 experience on a new PC with no junkware installed. The software and hardware work perfectly together.
wolfeidau 14y ago
Working a small development shop I can tell you that if we buy an off the shelf workstation it can take almost as much time to clear our the crap ware and configure the drivers as it does to build a machine from parts, even considering the work it takes to quote/order/pickup/assemble a system. It is a very sad state of affairs when NONE of these vendors offer a service to sell you one without crap ware.. This costs small business so much time it is a very bad joke!
njharman 14y ago
Prediction: in 5years there will be a similar post about Ubuntu Desktop.
recursive 14y ago
> Of course, Windows 8 doesn't let you do that. SmartFilter blocked every attempt SmartFilter seems to be a McAfee product. This Windows user has never encountered it.
kelyjames 14y ago
ninite.com is a massive time saver for me with installing software
AmVess 14y ago
This isn't Windows users. This is HP users. Big difference.
TheOsiris 14y ago
Any pc/tab bought from the MS store won't have this problem. Also, if u take it to the MS store they'll reimage it for free. Just my 2 cents.
lifeformed 14y ago
This is why I love buying my laptops from boutique shops. I was able to provide them with my own Windows key, which saved around $100 off the laptop price, and they installed a clean build of Windows, with nothing installed on it except for drivers. It also came with a folder on the desktop with neatly sorted driver installers (for future use), and also benchmark data that they ran on the computer.
commandar 14y ago
I bought a Vizio thin and light partially because it came with what Vizio and Microsoft dubbed "Windows Signature." Which is essentially marketing speak for "Windows. Just Windows. No crapware preinstalled." It was almost weird to be able to take a PC out of the box and be able to immediately start using it. Microsoft apparently worked pretty closely with Vizio on this, which suggests that Microsoft knows that the experience on most Windows PCs sucks.
- eldavido 14y ago
  They do (have friends in the shell team @ MS). It's just really hard for them to hit the right balance between compatibility, which is _super_ important to their bread-and-butter enterprise customers, vs. providing a clean crap-free experience to consumers. For better or worse, the "consumer" user of Windows -- a person at home, without an IT support desk, who purchased his computer himself at a store -- captured a lot of attention inside Microsoft for this release. I'm not at all surprised to see more Apple-like behavior from them, e.g. (1) restricting what Windows RT can run to the software available in the windows app store, (2) completely breaking app compatibility for older (WinForms) apps on WinRT, (3) getting way more draconian about hardware requirements for the Phone (specification of button counts/sizes, etc.), (4) having a "Signature" edition of windows. MS has been fighting this battle for decades -- most blue screens were caused by crappy hardware drivers; they knew this but couldn't fix the problem without hugely breaking compatibility.
Raphael 14y ago
It sounds like you shouldn't use Comodo.
shanselman 14y ago
Interesting no one commented on the change in title as this article found its way to HN.
alister 14y ago
> Comodo firewall subscribed me to something called GeekBuddy, Adobe Reader trying to install McAfee, QuickTime trying to sign me up for offers Perhaps what we need is a meta-installer that runs standard installers but ticks check boxes and sets or clears options that tell the app to not install adware/toolbars/plug-ins, maximizes the privacy settings, turns off auto-update, etc. Whenever I install something, I already make notes about what I ticked/set/cleared so I can do it quickly the next time I need to install the same thing. Notes like this in an appropriate format--from thousands of users--can serve as the config file for the meta-installer. Since the meta-installer would run the applications' own installers, there shouldn't be objections from commercial vendors since it wouldn't be repackaging their products.
- radiowave 14y ago
  To a large extent, what you're asking for already exists, and is free for personal use. I've no affiliation; you may want to check out ninite.com
rcthompson 14y ago
The argument I've heard in the past is that in exchange for the inconvenience of crapware etc., the purchase price of hardware running Windows is subsidized, and that without all the crapware, customers would pay more for their computers. Are there any hard figures on this, or is it just a platitude used by the people who put the crapware on PCs?
eldavido 14y ago
Interesting case study here of revealed preferences (vs. "stated preferences"). Forget what people say they want, consumers vote with their dollars and have told OEMs that they prefer a "cheap" computer that has the crap on it vs. a more expensive one. A lot of Americans -- myself included -- automatically buy things because they're "cheap". I wonder whether people in other places (countries? regions?) behave this way, or if some cultures emphasize "less but better" over "more but crappy"?
- qu4z-2 14y ago
  Maybe it wasn't clear that the cheaper option had more crap on it. All that Free Market/vote with your dollars stuff only works in the case of well-informed consumers, and we all know that when it comes to computers, most consumers are not.
justincormack 14y ago
Even Java for Windows tries to install a toolbar. The whole thing is out of control.
S_A_P 14y ago
I think this is symptomatic of the monopoly pcs once had. When the average user had no alternative, then software and hardware vendors had carte blanche to load up crap ware. I think it's funny how adobe is mentioned several times, as acrobat is one of the most intrusive applications I've ever used. From the install, you are asked to install a tool bar that you opt out from (opt in by default), security updates happen frequently and the adobe updater is just plain annoying.
blaze33 14y ago
I bought my current laptop last year. While wondering how annoying it would be to set up a dual-boot and have a not-so-bloated windows install, I've had enough: I called Dell, telling them I'm not agreeing with their software license and that I want to return them all the software. 5 minutes. Got 180€ back for this. Wiped the entire HDD. Ah man! That felt good. No more rants on crapware. Installed Ubuntu. Now I have a computer that does what I want it to do, not what I'm supposed to want. Sure I have to put up with other issues now but what a liberative experience.
expralitemonk 14y ago
I went online shopping this weekend for a laptop for Mrs. expralitemonk. With an open heart we considered Windows or Mac. On the Macbook web page I found: specs for each model, estimated battery life, and the price. On one page! For all models! http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_pro http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macboo... Every Windows site I went to required multiple clicks just to get rudimentary information. If you want my money, please make buying your product easy.
neona 14y ago
When he said "SmartFilter", I think he was referring to smartscreen, which is kinda annoying, but can easily bypassed. IIRC, you have to click "Learn more" and then "install anyway", which is a tad counter-intuitive, but one can still run things without disabling smartscreen pretty easily.
mahgnous 14y ago
First thing I do when I get a new computer is format the damn thing and put a base copy of Windows only on it.
keypusher 14y ago
This is like going to McDonald's and expecting a gourmet burger. The author bought an HP laptop, of course it's going to be full of useless crap.
omnisci 14y ago
Uhh, reading this thread is disappointing. Windows is not a bad OS, it has it's pluses and minus just like OSX. Sometimes I love my windows box, other times I really like my iMac. To blame the OP's issues on windows is short sited, it's like blaming android for touch wiz or motorblur. These problems are with the 3rd party groups putting shit on top of their products. This is why Mac is doing well. It isn't that the OS is "better," it's just that you have go through 290-38080823 popups when you are trying to check the email on your AOL account. As others have pointed out, MS needs to step up to the plate and really force vendors to release just a vanilla version of Windows. At the enterprise level this saves time/money. Either that, or send machines without OSes installed allowing the customer to put their own images directly on to the computer. MS is losing customers specifically for this reason. That and their laptops aren't "pretty". If MS followed the android lead (ie: nexus), they might be able to recover some of their customer base.
Sillyclown 14y ago
If you are savvy enough to recognize crapware when you see it, you are savvy enough to not buy a PC that has a brand (like HP).
computerslol 14y ago
Here's the interesting question. Is it better to lock down user experience using a central software quality assurance and distribution system (allowing an OS developer to enforce rules to keep experiences powered by their OS consistent and easy, but massively hampering homebrew), or allow developers (and by extension marketing people) add whatever they want to software (leaving the market open for innovation, and by necessity, this crap as well)? Windows 8 represents both experiences, side by side. User adoption will give us the answer. Personally, I am happy to be part of the experiment.
thewileyone 14y ago
3rd paragraph, 2nd sentence: "This is supposed to be a fairly clean HP laptop ... " There's no such thing as a clean HP laptop ... or desktop ...

408 points by dendory 14y ago

And this is why I'd prefer to buy a laptop or tablet directly from Microsoft. OEMs are doing an increasingly bad job, with everything from hardware to software. The exception I can see is Lenovo, which is the only OEM I'd buy anything from.

ygra 14y ago
A fresh install of Windows is about 10 minutes from a USB thumb drive, which is not much longer than unboxing the computer, I guess. At least that's how I solved that problem usually ;)

funkwyrm 14y ago

I know it is the deep dark valley of obvious, but this is why we use macs.

qu4z-2 14y ago
I don't use macs because I have yet to see one with a nipple mouse/TrackPoint. The hardware uniformity has upsides and downsides.

aristidb 14y ago

And I fear this kind of crappy PC experience is a significant factor in why many people move to primarily using tablets.

tsm 14y ago
The problem with mobile devices is that when they are prefilled with OEM crap (mine came with Motoblur, Blockbuster, and several other terrible media-streaming apps), there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Windows may have a terrible default experience, but at least it's fixable.
- aristidb 14y ago
  OK, admittedly the fact that I stick to Google Nexus and Apple brand kind of makes me oblivious to the existence of all that crapware. But as far as I can tell, some people actually like what HTC and Samsung are doing with their Android.
  - nsp 14y ago
    The customizations that people like on android phones are usually the skins - touchwiz on htc phones and sense on samsung's. Many fewer people use/like the Verizon-specific app store or V-cast or whatever their proprietary video service is called these days, which are more directly equivalent to the crapware referred to in the article.
    - tsm 14y ago
      Every time I try to launch the turn-by-turn GPS on my Verizon Droid2, I get prompted to use vanilla Navigator or some Verizon crapware. Checking the box to make one the default does nothing. This is absurd.
  - mogrim 14y ago
    Go on then, tell me how I can uninstall Facebook and Google Goggles from my Nexus One? (Slightly tongue-in-cheek - my Nexus One is nothing like as bad as my Galaxy Tab for crapware that comes pre-installed.
- npsimons 14y ago
  You have heard of rooting and using something like TitaniumBackup to force remove apps, right? And of course, there's always the option of going with the clean versions direct from Google.
  - tsm 14y ago
    With my particular phone (Droid2 Global) you can't root if you've upgraded to 2.3. Nor can you downgrade to 2.2 and then root. Basically I'm just stuck on castrated Gingerbread for the life of the phone.

jerhewet 14y ago

> The first step was getting rid of the usual pre-installed crap [...] It took me over an hour to go through all the uninstallers. I was at least three sentences into a long "Uninstallers? Seriously?" rant when I realized that this is exactly what the average poor bastard on the street would do if they wanted to get rid of the crapware that infests a new machine. [long thoughtful pause] Jesus. It really is that big of a divide. I never (never, never, ever, ever) boot up a new machine. I always nuke-n-pave it right out of the box. I don't even give it any thought -- it's just the way it is. [another long thoughtful pause] Then again, this is a problem for my generation, where one in one hundred (maybe more) had half a clue when it came to personal computers. I'd like to think the "run the uninstaller" route is also not an option for kids in their 20's and 30's (get off my lawn!). I'd like to think the ratio is closer to one in three or four, and installing a virgin copy of your OS of choice on a new machine is just as much a habit for them as it is for me. So I guess I'm left wondering if I'm reading a rant from the late 1990's.

jiggy2011 14y ago
It's not always so easy to just nuke-n-pave a new machine unless you are planning on installing Linux or happen to have a vanilla copy of Windows with the correct service pack for the OEM license key for your PC hanging around. I bought a cheap Sony laptop a few years back, came with Vista and all of this shit pre-installed. The only provided way to re-install the OS was via a "recovery" DVD which puts all this shit right back on. So I uninstall all of this stuff and it occasionally gives me errors complaining that it's missing various things that it expects to be there, so obviously even the uninstall doesn't quite work properly.
recursive 14y ago
So where do you get a virgin copy of Windows without paying for it again?
- jerhewet 14y ago
  http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/software-os/w/microsoft_os/3316.2-1-microsoft-windows-7-official-iso-download-links-digital-river.aspx http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/software-os/w/mi... These ISO's should work on any machine as long as you have a valid Windows 7 Product Key. I've always bought at least one OEM copy of Windows, or purchased upgrade copies when a new version is released. I picked up three copies of the Windows 7 DVD set (x32 and x64) for $40 each on Amazon, and you can pick up ISO's of Windows 8 directly from Microsoft for $40 a pop. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/buy?ocid=GA8_O_WOL_Hero_Home_FPP_Null http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/buy?ocid=GA8_O_WO...

givan 14y ago

Not computer users, just the windows users. I never understood the install wizards for windows software, in 99% of the time you just click "next" until it stops asking for more "next". And now they all sneak garbage adware with the check boxes enabled by default because most people just click "next" anyway. Also the whole download and install drivers/utilities etc after installation is very time consuming because the OS has almost nothing bundled and what is bundled is MS only like internet explorer, nothing you can choose in that "next" wizard. Windows is like a granny in the OS world, she needs to retire.

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
>I never understood the install wizards for windows software, in 99% of the time you just click "next" until it stops asking for more "next". Well, if you use the Windows Store to get applications, you can finally get rid of them. >the OS has almost nothing bundled Really? Windows 8, for instance, comes with much of what you'd need. It's bundles a lot more than previous versions of windows >nothing you can choose in that "next" wizard. I'm not quite sure what this means.
- givan 14y ago
  >I'm not quite sure what this means. I was referring to the fact that Microsoft does not bundle multiple browsers to choose from and forces everyone to have IE installed and unfortunately most users don't understand what a browser is to fix this. And this is the reason web developers had nightmares with IE6 in the past and some still have with IE7.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
    Microsoft shouldn't bundle multiple browsers. Now, I can see your point that they don't exactly provide others (except in the EU)... but I'm not sure this is really such a bad thing.
  - gizmo686 14y ago
    What operating system does bundle multiple browsers?

ejreynolds 14y ago

Agreed that the base installs are rubbish. But clean install of Windows 7 or 8 + ninite.com. Windows generally has the drivers you need out of box, or at least the NIC / wireless driver so Windows update can find the rest for you, automatically. I can't remember the last time I had to manually get a driver for something, with the single exception of a USB to serial adapter I need for work.

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
Windows 8 has a factory reset button... this would be a great option, except I expect that on retail systems it would reinstall the crapware. Or maybe not?
amboar 14y ago
In addition to ninite, pcdecrapifier[1] is also handy, even for cleaning machines that aren't brand new. Doesn't look like it supports windows 8 yet though. [1] http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/ http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/
CountSessine 14y ago
A lot of laptops are different. The Lenovo T520 I'm using right now has an ethernet chip that the OEM version of Windows 7 couldn't figure out, and I had to track what the chip was before I could get on the internet. So it isn't all roses in the Windows world with drivers. At least there was a driver, though.

karpathy 14y ago

I feel that this is one of the major reasons I find myself using tablets more often. The UX on PCs has turned to crap. All programs want to run in the background, they all compete for my attention every 30 minutes, they all want to be updated all the time and they all want to install some stupid toolbar into my browser that you can't remove, or even if you do it will somehow come back. Installing new programs has turned into a 10-minute minigame of "spot the checkbox that screws up your computer deep in the Custom Install settings!". Or sometimes I have to re-read a question in a randomly intruding dialog box 5 times just to figure out if I should answer Yes or No to their vague question for them to just please leave my computer alone. It's extremely annoying. I also can't remember the number of times I've cleaned up my msconfig startup. The programs just magically insert themselves back somehow over time. It's infuriating and exhausting. I feel protected on my iPad from this torture.

ajross 14y ago
There are other perspectives, though. I've been on a Linux desktop almost exclusively for 19 years now. I continue to be amazed at the amount of spammy crap I have to put up with on my phone and tablet (running CM10 and stock 4.0.2 respectively, so it's not like I'm beholden to a manufacturer). Seems like every game wants to tell me about new features in the status bar every day. All the online services want to connect me to all the others. Every day or so some app has an "upgrade" available that inexplicably needs new permissions authorized. And frankly it seems to be getting worse. And my desktop distro just goes on, doing what it's supposed to do, year after year.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > And my desktop distro just goes on, doing what it's supposed to do, year after year. What distro are you using? Because not all of them are free of this sort of crap. For example, Canonical decided to pollute the universal search in Unity, starting with Ubuntu 12.10, by adding in results from Amazon.

RyJones 14y ago

Unfortunately, the profit in those laptops comes from the shovel ware, so there's no incentive for OEMs to sell a pro-user experience.

eli 14y ago
At one point Sony offered a $50 fee to get your new PC with a "fresh" install. Unfortunately that was a tough sell from a marketing perspective.
rhplus 14y ago
Microsoft got the message and their retail stores only sell computers as "Microsoft Signature", i.e. no crapware. http://signature.microsoft.com/ http://signature.microsoft.com/
- RyJones 14y ago
  I was unaware! thanks for the pointer.
- hxc 14y ago
  All PCs sold at Microsoft Store come with Microsoft Signature – a great way to get the most out of Windows.
  - ilaksh 14y ago
    "a great way to get the most out of Windows" Is that marketing speak for no crap/bloat/shovelware?

ChuckMcM 14y ago

I enjoyed this rant. The bottom line is that this 'experience' isn't about you, its about who you can be sold too. That is because "you" are too cheap to pay what "we" think should be paid for them. It is like a hotel which sells you room for $100 a night if you agree to let them leave a web cam on 24/7 and sell any useful 'snippets' it catches while you are there. The bulk of the market doesn't buy "computers" they buy "televisions." Think about that for a minute. The bulk of the market are entertainment 'consumers' for which you can sell access to their eyeballs for real money. Just like TV did before people got digital recorders and started skipping all the ads. Not so with these new fangled TVs, they don't care if you don't look at their advertising they want to know what you did look at, and when, and after what, and then what did you do? Because all of that is much more valuable than putting up a tasty picture of a cheeseburger in front of you, no, they can phone ahead to your local market and tell them to stock up on cheeseburgers because you've been researching them all day and are now at the point where you want to make a purchase. But the cool thing? It means that the current 'big' players are leaving the market for computers behind. You can tell that by the fact that the computer company no longer sells a product that a developer would care to use. And that means that there is room again at the bottom. Time to start a 'developers' company that works very much on the same model that Sun Microsystems started on, hardware designed from the ground up to be developed on, open systems so that folks can easily work with it, and a team dedicated to making sure integration and support is there so that folks like you and I can say "Hey this audio doesn't work when you set the sampling rate to 40Khz" and they can fix it and release that fix. But for that company to exist, you have to pay for the products you use, and to get to that point you have to not be able to get something 'good enough' by hacking and slashing something else into shape.

oscilloscope 14y ago
System76 is attempting to do this. I liked the Gazelle Professional. Considering they're not an ODM, the Gazelle was pretty decent for its specs and screen when it was released. There was no bloat aside from vanilla Ubuntu, except a driver to improve the screen brightness buttons. Still though, you can always throw Ubuntu on a Thinkpad. A small company like System76 can't match the form factor and battery life of products from Lenovo, Apple, Samsung, etc.

makeset 14y ago

The pleasure of uninstalling with a Delete keystroke is reason enough to move to MacOS. Say what you will against Apple, but I have been just plain peaceful ever since I smashed my blue-screened Windows laptop on the wall and walked out to buy a Mac years ago.

SquareWheel 14y ago
Sounds like you'd enjoy Metro.
- 89a 14y ago
  if you can figure out how to uninstall things in it

unimpressive 14y ago

I remember reading that this is the reason[2] Steve Jobs wouldn't license the Mac OS X operating system to other OEM vendors. As I understand it, a good deal of this crap is caused by misaligned incentives. Software companies pay OEMs to preload computers with their buggy, invasive, resource hogging software. Thanks to the Microsoft Windows operating system having all sorts of nooks and crannies to hide this sort of stuff in, like msconfig; the "PC", with which Windows is synonymous, is seen as a painful platform full of crashes and arcane bullshit. Of course, the cure is presented in the form of locked down, proprietary platforms which shelter users from software companies self inflicted wounds. As times goes on; these platforms will slowly come to resemble their former counterparts, but without the relief of being able to uninstall the crapware. I think that priority one for people interested in the future of computing is to fix the experience for the 99%. EDIT: The answer isn't necessarily other open systems like Linux or Haiku, OEM manufacturers can screw the default installs on those systems up just as well. EDIT[2]: Part of the reason anyway.

mhurron 14y ago
> the reason Steve Jobs wouldn't license the Mac OS X operating system to other OEM vendors The reason Jobs didn't license out OS X is because the last time Apple did that it almost killed the company. One of the first things Jobs did on returning to Apple was end those agreements.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Do you have a source for that? My recollection was that Apple was in dire straits at the time anyhow, but that the clone makers were substantially increasing MacOS shipments at a time when Apple was threatened with irrelevancy. I thought Jobs killed the clones because he wanted absolute control, which he saw as necessary to pursue his goals for a high-end, seamless experience.
  - zemanel 14y ago
    good thing he didn't. one of the reasons i enjoy working on OSX is the "mintness" i got accustomed from using Linux

ROFISH 14y ago

Note this is an aside on USEFUL background apps, not spyware/crapware, since it appears he disabled the update mechanisms in the last two paragraphs: Most of those background service apps (Google Update, Apple Push, Adobe Update) are because a tiny background app is necessary to preform certain functions, and check for updates in the background, which is a good thing! For example, 'iTunesAgent.exe' on Windows was to simply detect if you had plugged an iPod in and auto pop-up iTunes. For usability, it makes sense; because otherwise you would plugin an iPod and get nothing or a confusing Windows 'dunno what to do with this drive' screen. And because of Windows' architecture (for better or worse), it requires a background app to do this. The same for many of the updaters. I would much rather be sure Flash and Java are updated then go running without an important security update. I still have yet to understand the "no background app, good or bad" manifesto. Good background apps barely use any CPU time, they barely use any memory (and Windows reports too much memory in the first place due to shared memory), and preforms useful functions.

yxhuvud 14y ago
Actually it is a bad thing since system updates should be a centralized feature and not something that should need to be reinvented (badly) by every other program you install.
SquareWheel 14y ago
In cases of useful background apps (and there are few), they should be run from the Windows scheduler. They don't need to always be running. Why do we need 30 individual software update checkers running anyway? Linux solved this problem many years ago.
npsimons 14y ago
There's a difference between "background app that quietly does it's job and stays out of the way" and "holy fuck, what the hell is using all twelve cores and 8gigs of RAM and making Google take 30seconds to load!?" Running your software on my hardware is a privilege; don't abuse it, and I won't delete your oh-so-important-crapware. That includes not nagging me to update and/or register.

EvanAnderson 14y ago

My experience, as of late, is that HP is pretty bad when it comes to shipping machines with pre-loaded crap. Dell and Lenovo business-oriented computers ship fairly clean, but HP business-oriented machines ship with loads of crapware. All consumer-oriented machines ship with crap.

haldean 14y ago

For users that want to just use the internet like the author of this article, I think that Chromebooks are quickly becoming a really great option. No crapware, comes with what you need to get online and nothing more, tons of battery life, tiny startup time. It fits the "I just want a dumb terminal for the web" model perfectly.

dendory 14y ago

A few added things: - To those suggesting using Linux, I use Windows because I need to. I run programs that require Windows, and don't really want to start messing with Wine. Also, from seeing the recent Ubuntu stories here on HN, it really does seem like the people behind Ubuntu and Gnome in particular are guilty of the same thing with their "brand" - While Apple probably doesn't do this on MacOS they sure do try to get your email to sign you up to "offers" when you download QuickTime.

ChuckMcM 14y ago
It would be interesting to see the list (or at least types) of programs you use that require Windows. I've got a CAD program that I've been using forever that does (TurboCAD) and I'm more facile in Corel Draw than Inkscape (which is horribly, horribly under-performing on the same hardware booted into Ubuntu 12.10).
- tarabukka 14y ago
  Does Corel Draw use some kind of graphics hardware acceleration (e.g. Direct2D)? I find that GTK software completely ignores hardware accelerated rendering most of the time; Cairo (which renders most of the GNOME UI now) is pretty much completely a software renderer, and the GNOME 3 desktop only uses OpenGL for window compositing, not most drawing, as far as I'm aware.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    Coincidentally perhaps, both Corel and TurboCAD use accelerated graphics for rendering.
- randomchars 14y ago
  For many this list has just one item: - Adobe Photoshop If you rely on it for work, than you can't just switch to Linux. GIMP is closer to paint than to PS.
  - acheron 14y ago

csense 14y ago

This is a great reason to switch to Linux Mint.

tosseraccount 14y ago
Agreed. Just set up dual boot Linux/Windows. One great thing about Linux is you can tell kids "download whatever you want". For those few times you need Windows (TurboTax), you can boot it. Other than that the only good thing about Windows is Excel which is much better than OpenOrifice or gnumeric. I'll grant that the professional image editing software is better too, but Gimp is fine when you get used to it. For surfing, listening to music, youtubeing, etc. , Linux seems a lot snappier.
- pjmlp 14y ago
  > "download whatever you want" Sure, because it is always nice to expose $HOME to the world.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

scott_meade 14y ago

iPad FTW.

beloch 14y ago

First of all, this guy's biggest mistake was failing to format his drive and start with a clean Windows install. Installing windows requires far less effort than cleansing a vendor's install of crapware. Users should not have to do this. I must fully agree that MS needs to start restricting what Vendors like HP can install on the PC's they sell. Second, I'm very curious to see how the Windows App store plays out. The #1 thing it needs to do to improve Windows as an OS is distribute free software. There is a lot of excellent free software available for windows like chrome, firefox, VLC, foobar2000, texmaker, Notepad++, uTorrent, etc.. Users have to go to different websites to download everything. This is such a pain that people have come up with installers, like ninite, that aggregate free software together into a single download. Ninite doesn't have everything I use, but it can easily shave hours off of setting up a new Windows box! One major advantage of an App store is that software distributed through it can be policed for malware and viruses. If MS could get users to use their store as much as possible there is the potential to improve security of the OS. The only way MS can do this is to build their store up as a trusted and comprehensive distribution center that is all most users need. MS should view it as a failure on their part whenever users are forced to go elsewhere to get software, even software that competes with Microsoft products or which duplicates core functionality of the OS. That's where Apple's App store failed! In order to do this, MS needs to devote resources to lowering the barrier to publication in their store. Don't get me wrong, I am dead-set against Windows moving towards an entirely walled-garden iOS style ecosystem. The ability to install software from outside the store should be preserved, nor should it be limited in any way. However, I would welcome a central distribution point for Windows software like what Linux has. Debian's APT package management system is brilliant. Even 10 years ago it would have made today's Apple App store look sad and pathetic. It is both comprehensive and incredibly smart in how it makes software modular with clear dependencies that are managed automatically for the user. This is the dream that all application stores should aspire towards. Redmond and Cupertino, for the love of your users, please start your copiers.

jiggy2011 14y ago
As I mentioned elsewhere, doing a clean Windows install is difficult if the only means of reinstallation you have is the bundled "recovery DVD" which puts all of the shit right back on there. With regards an APT for Windows, I don't see how that wouldn't be possible to add to Windows as a third party thing. With a nice GUI and search and a default catalog of quality mainly OSS software with no toolbars or BS and have it also keep everything upto date. That way you could just install it on all of your relatives who use Windows's computers and tell them just to download everything from either that or the MS app store.

jodrellblank 14y ago

And the first reply is "use linux". To a post about "usability problems people have to put up with because authors care more for their ideas than user experience". Linux. Famed for choosing choice over usability and ideology over usability almost to the point of absurdity.

contextfree 14y ago
Usability is, ultimately, relative to the user.
likeclockwork 14y ago
Usability doesn't mean ease of use.
qu4z-2 14y ago
That was a lot more true in the past, 'though I admit traces of it remain.

kenjackson 14y ago

Why doesn't the author just pay the non-subsidized price and get a clean Signature machine from Microsoft? http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/en_US/pd/productID.235559700 http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/en_US/pd/product... I suspect that while he doesn't like the crapware, he doesn't mind the $75 subsidy. You really can't have it both ways.

maurits 14y ago
So perhaps the real surprise is, is that despite the rather vocal apple/linux crowd, there is still a very large user group for which the crapware-OEM bundles are not big enough an issue to switch or to act up on. Be it for technical or for economical reasons.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  I think it's just that many people aren't aware that there is an alternative. I'm surprised the number of people who consider a browser that takes 30 seconds to start (on an i5) as normal. No wonder they are awed by an iPad when they use one.
tl 14y ago
From your link: "To install Windows 8 Pro upgrade, customers must be running Windows XP SP3, Windows Vista, or Windows 7." What I don't see is a way to buy a non-upgrade version at a sane price ($69 vs. $199) if I want to run a clean version of Windows on the desktop I built. Said desktop is running linux and my primary interest would be running it on virtualbox, but that's neither here not there.
_delirium 14y ago
You can also get non-crapware machines if you buy from most OEMs' "small business" divisions.

jiggy2011 14y ago

This is one of the reasons I like running Linux, although this is really mainly a feature of having a smaller userbase and being mainly OSS so it is less of a target for this BS. The only alternative for the mainstream seems to be the sandboxed type approach of iOS/WinRT. Oh, some developers abuse browser toolbars? No browser toolbars period! Background processes can make your system slower? No background processes period! Software from random websites can be viruses? Buy all of your software from us!

bo1024 14y ago
Yeah, as a Linux user this article was just a list of reasons not to go back to Windows. It does seem ironic that the product you pay for is far more anti-consumer than the free (in both senses) alternative. But I don't think that fact can be denied.
- zanny 14y ago
  It is inherently anti-consumer by being non-free software. Honestly, the FSF did call this crap, for all those who call them insane. They are insane, but they are sensibly insane.
pjmlp 14y ago
Just wait until OEMs start shipping their own distributions...

motters 14y ago

The first thing to understand is that this isn't a problem with contemporary computing per se, it's a problem with Microsoft Windows and its software ecosystem.

pjmlp 14y ago
Any ecosystem that has OEMs: - Symbian - Android - Linux distributions on netbooks - ...
- motters 14y ago
  Yes, this might be a problem with proprietary software more generally - that it ultimately ends up trying to strongarm or "hard sell" the user rather than merely trying to meet their requirements.

revelation 14y ago

I had a good laugh at people recommending Ubuntu. I recently installed the very latest Ubuntu on a VM, started the launcher, typed "terminal" ... and looked in utter disbelief as it started showing me random movies and crap from Amazon. If that is your idea of a better operating system, try again.

uniclaude 14y ago
I'm not an ubuntu defender but honestly, aren't a couple Amazon ads better (or let's call it less bad) than all the crapware OP talks about? We are talking 1 command against hours of fight against a whole system.
- TeMPOraL 14y ago
  I think I'd rather stay with crapware. Companies, I don't care about your offers. When I will want to buy something, I'll Google myself a better deal. Damn, it's just so wrong...
- keithpeter 14y ago
  Yes, certainly. I dimly remember HP as being a particularly cruddy install. The Amazon search in Unity home lens (where you go to launch programs &c) is attempting to be a dynamic search so that results narrow as you type. Network latency means it sort of 'jumps' in groups of letters. Sometimes results corresponding to part of the words you type appear. This can produce 'interesting' results. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2063868 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2063868
ps258 14y ago
Maybe fedora would work better for you. Or debian. Or one of the numerous Ubuntu spins which do not have ads. The point is that there will always be a Linux distribution which focusses on the user because a lot of them are made by community
drivebyacct2 14y ago
I have a good laugh at people that dismiss an entire OS for a problem solved with 10 seconds and 20 characters of effort.

wbizzle 14y ago

The title of this article should really be changed to "The amount of crap WINDOWS users have to put up with is incredible". I remember back 5-6 years ago when I had to go through all of the above. But if the writer is tired of these things, he should just pony up the dough and get a mac.

qu4z-2 14y ago
But then he'd have to use a mac. He may have existing legacy software that he needs to run, or may simply dislike the mac UX (I for one can't stand it, although I like some of the underlying tech). Besides, I'm finding it increasingly morally indefensible to purchase Apple products.

megaman821 14y ago

The real answer is stop buying those machines loaded with crap-ware. The Microsoft Store sells various computers free from all the crap-ware. Also some manufacturers are good about keeping the extra software to a minimum and even offering a clean restore disk.

codgercoder 14y ago

Your real problem is that you think you own your computer (err, software delivery appliance). I actually think PCs have become like MTV. MTV was a way to get all the people who like music and video onto a channel, then deliver all kinds of content (IE ads) that the advertisers think would be appropriate for them.

ixacto 14y ago

This is why people like macs. Apple should block google ads in safari though, that would really make things interesting.

Auguste 14y ago

The easiest way to deal with this crap is just to do a fresh install of Windows when you buy a new PC, and download the drivers from the manufacturer's website. That way you can be sure that it's as clean an install as you can get. Unfortunately, this is complicated by the fact that manufacturers don't ship Windows discs. I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, but perhaps Windows 8's built-in restore feature will be the solution to this problem.

rcb 14y ago

After almost 20 years of running Linux, FreeBSD (and even NextStep!) on x86 bare metal, I've for the time being gone back to Windows. It's a fast dual-head box. One screen is all Windows (and I'm typing this from IE 10), and the other is xmonad and emacs on Arch Linux on VirtualBox. I'm also an Apple user (and AAPL shareholder), owning two (2010 and 2011 model) MBPs, and it is my opinion that Windows 8 is gorgeous and very, very stable. Microsoft has finally simplified the desktop experience, with sane security defaults, and in my opinion are very close if not at par with Mountain Lion on ease of use and attention to detail. Finally, the system's performance as a desktop machine is at least %25 better than Unity/Gnome 3/KDE, and the overall fit and finish is years ahead of any leading open source DE. It was the Desktop Linux experience that has encouraged me to look elsewhere. I'd encourage everyone to keep an open mind wrt MSFT. They're on the right track. This is not the same company I grew up hating.

genwin 14y ago
Your setup is close to mine, which is Win 7 running VirtualBox and Linux Mint. I've not used a Mac. I like developing with Linux. A friend recommends ditching my double-OS setup in favor of Apple. My question to you is, why don't you use only Apple / Mountain Lion? Why bother with Win 8?
- dualogy 14y ago
  If you like to combine the Win desktop environment with the Linux dev environment, other than VirtualBox you could also check out MinGW if you haven't yet.
kxs 14y ago
Although I haven't tried Windows 8 yet, I had the same experience using Windows 7. It's interesting that only 7 years ago you probably wouldn't have be able to sit me in front of a Windows machine without resistance or at least some complaining. Since then I turned out to be a frequent defender of Microsoft in my surroundings and I'm considering ditching my Apple ecosystem for Windows 8 (esp. because of Surface and Windows Phone 8). But the real problem, as have stated other, is OEM software and 3rd-party-apps. It takes effort to maintain your system (although not much, at least in my opinion, but you have to pay attention to, for example, what is installed along the way). I usually have none of the problems my peers or friends have (with Windows) and if you look at their machine, you'll see why. Almost every time I visit my father, there is a new (worthless) toolbar installed.

macspoofing 14y ago

Microsoft should do what Google does with Android and release a clean 'reference' system without all the 3rd party crap-ware.

sch1zo 14y ago
you do know Microsoft sells plain Windows, do you?
- sbuk 14y ago
  A reference machine...
  - sch1zo 14y ago
    Microsoft does that too. AFAIK their Signature Line is exactly that http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/list/parentCategoryID.44066900/categoryID.50787200 http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/list/parentCateg... Our carefully selected PCs provide the cleanest Windows 8 experience on a new PC with no junkware installed. The software and hardware work perfectly together.

wolfeidau 14y ago

Working a small development shop I can tell you that if we buy an off the shelf workstation it can take almost as much time to clear our the crap ware and configure the drivers as it does to build a machine from parts, even considering the work it takes to quote/order/pickup/assemble a system. It is a very sad state of affairs when NONE of these vendors offer a service to sell you one without crap ware.. This costs small business so much time it is a very bad joke!

njharman 14y ago

Prediction: in 5years there will be a similar post about Ubuntu Desktop.

recursive 14y ago

> Of course, Windows 8 doesn't let you do that. SmartFilter blocked every attempt SmartFilter seems to be a McAfee product. This Windows user has never encountered it.

kelyjames 14y ago

ninite.com is a massive time saver for me with installing software

AmVess 14y ago

This isn't Windows users. This is HP users. Big difference.

TheOsiris 14y ago

Any pc/tab bought from the MS store won't have this problem. Also, if u take it to the MS store they'll reimage it for free. Just my 2 cents.

lifeformed 14y ago

This is why I love buying my laptops from boutique shops. I was able to provide them with my own Windows key, which saved around $100 off the laptop price, and they installed a clean build of Windows, with nothing installed on it except for drivers. It also came with a folder on the desktop with neatly sorted driver installers (for future use), and also benchmark data that they ran on the computer.

commandar 14y ago

I bought a Vizio thin and light partially because it came with what Vizio and Microsoft dubbed "Windows Signature." Which is essentially marketing speak for "Windows. Just Windows. No crapware preinstalled." It was almost weird to be able to take a PC out of the box and be able to immediately start using it. Microsoft apparently worked pretty closely with Vizio on this, which suggests that Microsoft knows that the experience on most Windows PCs sucks.

eldavido 14y ago
They do (have friends in the shell team @ MS). It's just really hard for them to hit the right balance between compatibility, which is _super_ important to their bread-and-butter enterprise customers, vs. providing a clean crap-free experience to consumers. For better or worse, the "consumer" user of Windows -- a person at home, without an IT support desk, who purchased his computer himself at a store -- captured a lot of attention inside Microsoft for this release. I'm not at all surprised to see more Apple-like behavior from them, e.g. (1) restricting what Windows RT can run to the software available in the windows app store, (2) completely breaking app compatibility for older (WinForms) apps on WinRT, (3) getting way more draconian about hardware requirements for the Phone (specification of button counts/sizes, etc.), (4) having a "Signature" edition of windows. MS has been fighting this battle for decades -- most blue screens were caused by crappy hardware drivers; they knew this but couldn't fix the problem without hugely breaking compatibility.

Raphael 14y ago

It sounds like you shouldn't use Comodo.

shanselman 14y ago

Interesting no one commented on the change in title as this article found its way to HN.

alister 14y ago

> Comodo firewall subscribed me to something called GeekBuddy, Adobe Reader trying to install McAfee, QuickTime trying to sign me up for offers Perhaps what we need is a meta-installer that runs standard installers but ticks check boxes and sets or clears options that tell the app to not install adware/toolbars/plug-ins, maximizes the privacy settings, turns off auto-update, etc. Whenever I install something, I already make notes about what I ticked/set/cleared so I can do it quickly the next time I need to install the same thing. Notes like this in an appropriate format--from thousands of users--can serve as the config file for the meta-installer. Since the meta-installer would run the applications' own installers, there shouldn't be objections from commercial vendors since it wouldn't be repackaging their products.

radiowave 14y ago
To a large extent, what you're asking for already exists, and is free for personal use. I've no affiliation; you may want to check out ninite.com

rcthompson 14y ago

The argument I've heard in the past is that in exchange for the inconvenience of crapware etc., the purchase price of hardware running Windows is subsidized, and that without all the crapware, customers would pay more for their computers. Are there any hard figures on this, or is it just a platitude used by the people who put the crapware on PCs?

eldavido 14y ago

Interesting case study here of revealed preferences (vs. "stated preferences"). Forget what people say they want, consumers vote with their dollars and have told OEMs that they prefer a "cheap" computer that has the crap on it vs. a more expensive one. A lot of Americans -- myself included -- automatically buy things because they're "cheap". I wonder whether people in other places (countries? regions?) behave this way, or if some cultures emphasize "less but better" over "more but crappy"?

qu4z-2 14y ago
Maybe it wasn't clear that the cheaper option had more crap on it. All that Free Market/vote with your dollars stuff only works in the case of well-informed consumers, and we all know that when it comes to computers, most consumers are not.

justincormack 14y ago

Even Java for Windows tries to install a toolbar. The whole thing is out of control.

S_A_P 14y ago

I think this is symptomatic of the monopoly pcs once had. When the average user had no alternative, then software and hardware vendors had carte blanche to load up crap ware. I think it's funny how adobe is mentioned several times, as acrobat is one of the most intrusive applications I've ever used. From the install, you are asked to install a tool bar that you opt out from (opt in by default), security updates happen frequently and the adobe updater is just plain annoying.

blaze33 14y ago

I bought my current laptop last year. While wondering how annoying it would be to set up a dual-boot and have a not-so-bloated windows install, I've had enough: I called Dell, telling them I'm not agreeing with their software license and that I want to return them all the software. 5 minutes. Got 180€ back for this. Wiped the entire HDD. Ah man! That felt good. No more rants on crapware. Installed Ubuntu. Now I have a computer that does what I want it to do, not what I'm supposed to want. Sure I have to put up with other issues now but what a liberative experience.

expralitemonk 14y ago

I went online shopping this weekend for a laptop for Mrs. expralitemonk. With an open heart we considered Windows or Mac. On the Macbook web page I found: specs for each model, estimated battery life, and the price. On one page! For all models! http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_pro http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macboo... Every Windows site I went to required multiple clicks just to get rudimentary information. If you want my money, please make buying your product easy.

neona 14y ago

When he said "SmartFilter", I think he was referring to smartscreen, which is kinda annoying, but can easily bypassed. IIRC, you have to click "Learn more" and then "install anyway", which is a tad counter-intuitive, but one can still run things without disabling smartscreen pretty easily.

mahgnous 14y ago

First thing I do when I get a new computer is format the damn thing and put a base copy of Windows only on it.

keypusher 14y ago

This is like going to McDonald's and expecting a gourmet burger. The author bought an HP laptop, of course it's going to be full of useless crap.

omnisci 14y ago

Uhh, reading this thread is disappointing. Windows is not a bad OS, it has it's pluses and minus just like OSX. Sometimes I love my windows box, other times I really like my iMac. To blame the OP's issues on windows is short sited, it's like blaming android for touch wiz or motorblur. These problems are with the 3rd party groups putting shit on top of their products. This is why Mac is doing well. It isn't that the OS is "better," it's just that you have go through 290-38080823 popups when you are trying to check the email on your AOL account. As others have pointed out, MS needs to step up to the plate and really force vendors to release just a vanilla version of Windows. At the enterprise level this saves time/money. Either that, or send machines without OSes installed allowing the customer to put their own images directly on to the computer. MS is losing customers specifically for this reason. That and their laptops aren't "pretty". If MS followed the android lead (ie: nexus), they might be able to recover some of their customer base.

Sillyclown 14y ago

If you are savvy enough to recognize crapware when you see it, you are savvy enough to not buy a PC that has a brand (like HP).

computerslol 14y ago

Here's the interesting question. Is it better to lock down user experience using a central software quality assurance and distribution system (allowing an OS developer to enforce rules to keep experiences powered by their OS consistent and easy, but massively hampering homebrew), or allow developers (and by extension marketing people) add whatever they want to software (leaving the market open for innovation, and by necessity, this crap as well)? Windows 8 represents both experiences, side by side. User adoption will give us the answer. Personally, I am happy to be part of the experiment.

thewileyone 14y ago

3rd paragraph, 2nd sentence: "This is supposed to be a fairly clean HP laptop ... " There's no such thing as a clean HP laptop ... or desktop ...