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Finnish sauna heat exposure induces stronger immune cell than cytokine responses
- gchamonlive 6mo ago> A total of 51 adults (...) were exposed to a 30-minute session of acute FSB at a temperature of + 73°C Woah, that seems like a lot for me. I can usually stand maybe 60ºC for like 10 maybe 15 min. I don't think I'd be able to stand 30 min under 73ºC.
- WhatsTheBigIdea 6mo agoI wager you are not Finnish.
- gchamonlive 6mo agoBrazilian! XD
- mndgs 6mo agoNot even a wager. Just out of ~100C sauna after 20 mins straight. Pretty normal, and I'm not Finnish. In that area though.
- Mistletoe 6mo ago[dead]
- weird-eye-issue 6mo agoI was in a 110C sauna for 20 minutes today. Plus 15 minutes in a 70C one (hybrid infrared sauna). Max is 30 minutes at once at 70C. It does take some getting used to.
- albertzeyer 6mo ago73°C is a bit unusual cold for a Finnish sauna. Wikipedia says: > The temperature in Finnish saunas is 80 to 110 °C (176 to 230 °F), usually 80–90 °C (176–194 °F) And with that temperature, I think 10–15 minutes are pretty standard.
- kepeko 6mo ago73°C isn't unusual. I checked out what's source for the Wikipedia article that says it's 80 to 110°C. Oddly it's a Chicago Tribune article from 1970. I don't think I ever visited a 110°C sauna.
- jaen 6mo ago110C is not that unusual in the Nordics (although way above average, it's for tougher sauna goers). I've been in one. Not most people's cup of tea though, the experience is comparable to the opposite of a long cold plunge.
- MagerValp 6mo ago110 is only on the top shelf, middle or lower is much cooler. For a dry sauna you really want to be well into the 100s to get a proper kick out of it.
- yeahforsureman 6mo agoA dry sauna sounds terminally boring. The point of Finnish saunas is that they are dry and hot, but you can adjust the pain...experience, I mean, by throwing water on the rocks at intervals of your choice.
- hdgvhicv 6mo agoI haven’t used a >95C but every sauna I’ve been to in Europe has options for 80 or above. They sometimes have cold ones at 70 or whatever too No point in going to saunas in America or uk as they require wearing clothes.
- out_of_protocol 6mo agoHumidity is the key, Finnish style sauna is low humidity+ high temperature (85-115C is OK i think), while Russian banya-style is low temperature (60-80C with high humidity). Both of them produce about the same load on a human
- orthoxerox 6mo agoRight, and Turkish-style hammam is 50C at 100% humidity. It's the only one I cannot stand.
- sersi 6mo agoMy problem with turkish style hammam is that unless it's extremely well maintained it often smells of mold. When I went to some nice hammams in turkey, I didn't have that problem but outside of turkey, it's often unbearable.
- gchamonlive 6mo agoThat's interesting. I don't have much the habit of doing sauna, as you can likely tell, so I might have tried only high humidity saunas. I'll give it a try one day with low humidity if I find one.
- freewilly23 6mo agoit is also very common to pour some water on the hot rocks. you feel the temperature a lot more, the instant the water gets poured.
- RakField 6mo agoThis is one of the most famous public saunas in Finland: https://www.kotiharjunsauna.fi/en https://www.kotiharjunsauna.fi/en If the temperature there is not close to 120°C, we are kind of disappointed.
- jaen 6mo agoIt's a multi-level sauna though, so it's "choose-your-own-temperature" (due to the hot air gradient), not everybody is there for the 120C experience.
- KellyCriterion 6mo agoThis temperature cheating is one of the things I see very often in Gyms & public places: They announce with "fin sauna 90°", and then its only 80 or 82,so stealing some performance :-D
- SoftTalker 6mo agoThe sauna at my gym is regularly over 180F and I do 30 minute sessions. It is a dry sauna however, no steam.
- csr86 6mo agoIn Finland we have old saying: "If liquor, tar and sauna won’t help, an illness is fatal"
- brightball 6mo agoTar?
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- csr86 6mo ago"Tar, acclaimed to have been formed from the sweat of Väinämöinen, a central character from the Finnish national epic Kalevala, was an important medicament to the former-day Finns. Tar actually did bear antiseptic features, which worked as a cure for infections. Lately tar has been recognised to include parts that can cause cancer, and the European Union has urged that its use should be avoided." [1] I personally dont know how tar was used for health, but it was big export item of Finland during medieval times. [1]https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/themes/themes/health-a-wellbeing/5281-liquor-tar-and-sauna-excuse-myth-or-an-option.html https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/themes/themes/health-a-wellbein...
- raverbashing 6mo agoI think you can just replace it with Vaseline (Petroleum jelly) for 99% of the benefits
- actionfromafar 6mo agoThat's not antiseptic
- atombender 6mo agoNot directly, but it acts as a barrier against microbes.
- api 6mo agoDoes a long hot bath do the same?
- andy_ppp 6mo agoAlmost certainly but most people don’t find it as enjoyable. Also the problem of keeping the bath hot enough for 20-30 mins.
- weird-eye-issue 6mo agoHot tub, onsen, etc...
- Mistletoe 6mo agoIf you are a man, the hot water has a deleterious effect on your testicles' ability to make sperm. But so do saunas apparently. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23411620/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23411620/ That one was 80-90C, which is a really hot sauna.
- p1esk 6mo agoJust to clarify - it’s a temporary effect - lasts for 3-6 months
- Aboutplants 6mo agoThen I’m gonna start doing it on my death bed!
- orthoxerox 6mo agoFinns go to sauna at least once every week and haven't gone extinct yet.
- nnevod 6mo agoStill there are studies that regular sauna does decrease testosterone production. It's not hard to counter though, ice packs applied to testicles ( not direct ice, ice in a cloth) during sauna are effective for that purpose. And maybe Finns don't go to sauna when they plan to conceive? Does Finland have a lower rate of unwanted pregnancies?
- hattmall 6mo ago>mitigate the adverse effects of low socioeconomic status Makes me wonder how much of it is Sauna, vs just the luxury of having the time to go do nothing for ~30 minutes.
- bloqs 6mo agoI nearly made a screen time comment but you are right, its facility availability and travel time issue more than anything
- Jensson 6mo agoFinland has saunas everywhere, having a sauna at home isn't even expensive average people have that, its just a cultural thing its like having a toilet at home it isn't something normal people can't afford.
- t-3 6mo agoNot all saunas are the same though. Traditional hotbox-ed wood burning saunas and modern electrics are the same thing but also kinda not.
- Jensson 6mo agoI don't think they used wood burning saunas in this study, basically all saunas today are electric.
- mesrik 6mo agoCorrect, most saunas at homes were they apartments or family homes, businesses, public saunas etc. were built using electric stoves when they became commonplace during -70's. But traditional summer cottages and villas have been either intentionally or still built wood burning stoves unless three phase power is easily available not bring cost up too much because remote location and long distance to grid. We have about half a million summer cottages in Finland. Which almost all have saunas and I would guess that perhaps 5% would have electric saunas as most summer cottages are built quite long time ago and off grid. There are fancy (luxury) summer cottages where there is not one but either two or even three saunas built or moved there. All different types of course if having many. One electric inside for convenience. Traditional (continuous) wood burning sauna, "jatkuvalämmitteinen" in Finnish, right next to lake because that type is consider to give better 'löyly' (steam in sauna) than you get from electric stove and thus preferred by many. Third if some have is usually oldest type, the smoke-sauna. Which is really nice to have if you can afford keeping and have patience to make use of it few times a year. It takes lot of time and bit of knowledge too to warm it up which can take up to 6-8 hours, before it's ready to start bathing there. This was most common type about hundred years ago in country side. Fourth type is or mostly was between smoke-sauna and continuously burning stove sauna. Its stove burns wood during heating, but then during bathing it's just releasing heat accumulated during heating. This type name in Finnish is "kertalämmitteinen kiuas" ie. onceheated-stove. And was most common in towns and cities before continuously warming stove was invented and became popular about 60 years ago. I go sauna four times a week, once evening where I live and three times a week early in morning when I go swimming to (county owned) swimming baths. e: typos, and clearer expressions.
- cue_the_strings 6mo agoAll of these studies are always performed by Finns (or SE / DK / NO + maybe Russia). I'd love to see this (and other sauna studies) replicated by someone somewhere to the south or hotter climates in general (southern Europe, Africa, hotter parts of Asia and the Americas).
- Jensson 6mo agoIt is hard to study this in a place with less access to saunas.
- dafelst 6mo agoSaunas are very cheap to buy and/or build, certainly within the budget of an average research grant.
- usrnm 6mo agoEver heard of hamam?
- dafelst 6mo agoI have not, what is it?
- thesz 6mo agoHammam is not as hot as sauna and not as dry. Sauna's air temperatures can reach above 100 degress Celsius and humidity is usually relatively low (around 20%). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna Hammam's temperatures are around 40-50 degrees Celsius and humidity is close to 100%. These are very different conditions, with very different body response.
- bilsbie 6mo agoI’ve always wondered if it raises internal body temperature? Is it basically an induced fever?
- colordrops 6mo agoIt does indeed increase internal temperature. Perhaps an artificial fever is part of it but I believe the science currently around heat shock proteins.
- raffraffraff 6mo agoHmm. So what about a 30 to 50 minute run wearing sweatpants / hoodie?
- colordrops 6mo agoI believe that heavy exercise can also increase heat shock proteins, but don't quote me. This info is all readily accessible online.
- calf 6mo agoI doubt high heart rate is a good mix for high temperature, you want them to balance out, see also homeostasis from high school biology.
- raffraffraff 6mo agoI'm thinking more like, when I run with a sweater and heavier sweatpants, but the time I'm at the 5km mark I'm seriously sweating. So, not just higher heart rate. I'm talking "feels like a fever" heat, for 20 minutes, a few times a week. But I run with my heart rate low, I don't like exceeding 150 on these runs.
- davidmurdoch 6mo agoYes. And if you can get it to 102F your body will produce heat shock proteins. Which are good for a whole bunch of reasons, but also can be very bad if you have any tumors, as it makes damaged cells more resistant to apoptosis.
- stevenhubertron 6mo agoSample size is tiny fwiw.
- moltar 6mo agoAnecdotal evidence. But since I started doing sauna regularly (once a week) I started to get sick less. I’m talking colds or flues. And the ones I did catch were much milder. Even with sick family members around I’m not catching it as often.
- mikeodds 6mo ago+1
- Towaway69 6mo agoIt’s also great for certain mental health issues: spending time naked with a mixed crowd (yes mixed female and male) can be eye opening. Saunas are a great leveller between humans all living the same experience yet feeling alone in doing so.
- euroderf 6mo agoFor the record, "mixed crowd" is for people who already know each other or maybe are at some kind of (countryside?) event. Public facilities are segregated by sex, and most private functions with a single sauna will organise separate sessions. Families will typically sauna all together, altho this system can break down when kids hit puberty.
- MaxikCZ 6mo agoI heard that we often get cold/flu/sore throat when we get too cold outside, because the inside of our orifices is kept at a certain temperature to kill those bacteria/viruses. When we get too cold, we are unable to kill them fast enough, and get overrun. Staying in 70-100°C air for prolonged time must also heatshock those parts of our bodies, so I guess we kinda sterilize it that way. At least my 2c why I think its helping
- NoLinkToMe 6mo agoAlso anecdotal evidence, I haven't been sick this whole past 12 months. Any change I made in the past 12 I could've contributed to this. Nothing particular comes to mind but there were lots of changes (e.g. work, home, diet). That's the issue. You'd have to stop sauna for a while and see if it reverses to strengthen the anecdotal case I guess.
- hbarka 6mo agoI’m not sure if I want a response of cytokine storms. MCAS is what comes to mind.
- cpncrunch 6mo agoIts not a storm though.
- theptip 6mo agoIIUC the operating theory is that a short burst of acute inflammatory stimulus clears out the system to below the prior baseline.
- ipnon 6mo agoIt’s like saying you don’t want to exercise because it induces tachycardia and hypertension. The point is that you are training your body to adapt to overstimulation in a context and dose dependent manner.
- ascii0eks84 6mo agoSauna basically is the "hot winter" simulator.
- carlosjobim 6mo agoSauna is the perfect activity to add to most people's everyday routine. It is 30-60 minutes of relaxation for the body and mind, which nicely fill in the slot between dinner and bedtime, instead of TV/Netflix or doom scrolling in the sofa.
- shevy-java 6mo agoNordic strong men and strong women.
- MrJagil 6mo agoI have been searching for benefits associated with hot yoga as well, but the area is very underexplored as far as i can tell.
- ekropotin 6mo agoCold showers - good for immune system. Heat expose - good as well. I guess what doesn’t kills us - makes us stronger is true after all.
- LorenPechtel 6mo agoCryotherapy, also. I'm wondering if what's actually going on is the temperature swings are what's important, not how they come about. I have also seen both scuba diving and skydiving suggested as beneficial due to the oxygen changes. Could this perhaps be a form of exercise for the body's regulatory systems?
- sexy_seedbox 6mo agoWhy do Hongkongers (no sauna culture) and Japanese have higher life expectancy than Finns?
- bitexploder 6mo agoBecause Sauna isn’t a magical, just beneficial?
- jogu 6mo agoOnsen (hot springs) are very common and popular in Japan. Nowadays, they almost always have sauna as well. In Tokyo there's probably a sauna within ~15 minutes of just about anywhere.
- oxag3n 6mo agoBack in Eastern Europe I frequently visited public "sauna" with my parents. It included jumping into freezing water after three heat sessions and the only thing you feel is just tingling in your skin. During those years all my respiratory illnesses were very brief and never affected lower areas (like bronchitis). The very first year I've emigrated I've got pneumonia and needed antibiotics twice during the cold season. The doctor told me it's just different viruses and I didn't have immunity for those (which is ridiculous considering globalization and I wasn't in an isolated tribe before). For my parents though I think it was net health negative as public sauna was always accompanied with a lot of alcohol.
- hsuduebc2 6mo agoThe thing about sauna I love the most is rare moment of absolute clarity after hot/cold cycle. I rarely can think so clearly, even if it's only for ten minutes, than after putting my body to stress by sauna heat. Weirdly I never saw any explanation.
- m463 6mo agoI had a water heater go out, and I took cold showers for a while, even after I fixed it. I felt absolutely awake after getting out of the shower. It also didn't fog the bathroom mirrors. I stopped because one day I took a warm shower and just gave it up. Don't know if taking hot showers was a lack of discipline, or sanity returning.
- geekraver 6mo agoWhat about non-Finnish sauna heat? Or do I have to go to Finland?