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Sodium-ion EV battery breakthrough delivers 11-min charging and 450 km range
- Grimblewald 7mo agoBYD / Denza z9 gt claim 10-70% in 5 mins, 97% in 9 mins. With a range of ~1000km this seems to crush these results? I don't know enough about this space to know if I am missing something here, but would love to know because something about this feels more exciting than i think i am grasping. anyone know?
- MisterTea 7mo agoI see no charge rate numbers so there is no way to compare. however, these sodium batteries are cheaper, do not require lithium, and are operable at lower temperatures of -20C/-4F. Sounds like a bit of a win and opens the door for battery options in cars.
- _aavaa_ 7mo agoAnd the fire safety risks are significantly reduced (thermal runaway is much harder). They can also be transported and stored completely discharged, something not done with lithium ion batteries because of it degrades them much more than regular usage.
- adrian_b 7mo agoThe sodium-ion batteries are said to work satisfactorily down to -40 Celsius = -40 Fahrenheit. -20 Celsius just happens to be a temperature for which a retention ratio was specified in the parent article, and not the limit of the operation range.
- nulltrace 7mo agoOperating at -40 is one thing, charging at -40 is another.
- 8note 7mo agoi would have imagined that charging at -40 is easier than operating at -40.
- adrian_b 7mo agoI have no idea how true this is, but the press releases claimed that both most of the capacity is retained down to -40 and that the charging speed is proportionally retain down to -40, and that this is the meaning of the operational range.
- nulltrace 7mo agoRight, good to know.
- Dylan16807 7mo agoWhen you're at a charger you can easily spare the 3-4% of battery capacity it takes to heat the pack by 40C. Less if you use a heat pump.
- pjc50 7mo agoHow many people let their ICE engine block get that cold?
- nottorp 7mo agoFor -40, the anecdote for combustion engines used to be that in Siberia you turn on the car's engine in november and off in march. For -20 though, it can happen each year in 4 season temperate climates and north of that.
- cbg0 7mo agoThe range claims depend on the size of the battery pack. The Denza has a larger pack than what is quoted in the article. Also, the Chinese CLTC range ratings are overly optimistic with 1000km CLTC being ~820km WLTP or ~700km EPA.
- IneffablePigeon 7mo agoThis article is about a sodium-ion battery which is a different chemistry to the one BYD claimed those results on (that was LFP). Sodium-ion is exciting because it has the potential to have less degradation over time, much less sensitivity to cold and less reliance on rare earth metals. Could also end up significantly cheaper. However it has struggled to reach the same energy densities and so hasn’t been practical thus far. This seems like a big step towards it being a practical technology choice for certain models, if it bears out.
- hunterpayne 7mo ago[flagged]
- November_Echo 7mo ago> Most of the cost will be safety systems designed to prevent the battery from being exciting and even then a crash will likely set them off. People say the same thing about Li-ion batteries yet they have proven to be significantly less likely to catch fire compared to ICE vehicles [1]. > people who don't want to admit that large scale electrification is a dumb idea. We electrified everything that made sense to electrify a half century ago. I'm very curious to hear why you think this. If nothing else, the 'situation' with the Strait of Hormuz would seem to have shown the importance of energy independence achieved through large scale electrification. Individually, I couldn't go back to an ICE car or even garden tools, they're worse in every way. 1. https://www.mynrma.com.au/open-road/advice-and-how-to/understanding-electric-vehicle-fires https://www.mynrma.com.au/open-road/advice-and-how-to/unders...
- hunterpayne 7mo ago[flagged]
- lazide 7mo agoSodium ion batteries seem roughly as fire prone as LFP - which is to say, no particularly? What are you going on about?
- mbesto 7mo ago> With a range of ~1000km this seems to crush these results The 1000km range likely has more to do with the efficiency of the drivetrain and the aerodynamics of the car more than the battery tech. kWh is an absolute value that is fungible and the Denza has a 122.5 kWh battery pack, which means its getting 5mi/kWh. For perspective my Rivian R1S gets ~350 miles on a 135 kWh pack which is about 2.5mi/kWh (so about half that) The only part of the battery tech that could affect range is the weight. Sodium batteries are typically much heavier than Li-on. I believe the Denza uses LFP, which means it's likely somewhere else on the car that they're gaining improvement in the range - not from the battery tech. That being said, the battery tech definitely affects the charge/discharge rates.
- formerly_proven 7mo agoOk, but the Rivian R1S is a particularly inefficient EV (2-2.5 mi/kWh = 31-25 kWh/100 km). 12.5 kWh/100 km is efficient but not outlandishly so considering these are likely CLTC ranges, which are higher than WLTP which are higher than EPA, and the car in question is not in fact a dumptruck.
- adrian_b 7mo agoSodium-ion batteries will always be heavier than the best lithium-ion batteries, but for now they have the same energy per kilogram with LFP batteries. So they have 2 essential advantages over LFP, retention of capacity to much lower temperatures and their cost will become significantly lower when their production technology will be more mature, because they not only do not use lithium, but they also do not use other expensive substances, e.g. nickel or cobalt.
- masklinn 7mo ago> The only part of the battery tech that could affect range is the weight. Weight is a pretty low factor for cars, sub-percent (aging wheels did a comparison using a pickup empty versus loaded with a pallet of shingles, though with a more efficient vehicle the influence of weight probably shows up more). Energy density (amount of energy per unit of volume) is a much bigger factor than energy specificity (amount of energy per unit of mass), it means you can either cram more energy in the same volume for more range, or have a lower vehicle with better aero.
- readthenotes1 7mo agoAnother better battery bulletin
- formerly_proven 7mo agoGuys!!! Important!!! Don't buy or lease an EV now!! Battery breakthrough is coming! Your car will be obsolete trash in two weeks tops! Buy ICE car instead! Stable investment!
- pjc50 7mo agoIt is a slightly weird experience trying to buy an EV as they genuinely do get significantly better very quickly. It's like buying a computer in the 90s or a phone in the 00s.
- adrian_b 7mo agoNot really. This is not about research articles, but it is advertising already existing commercial products. There are a handful of competing Chinese companies, which have launched during the last few months greatly improved batteries, both for cars and for stationary energy storage, removing the main complaints against such batteries, like charging times, loss of capacity at low temperatures and use of materials that might become scarce.
- WarmWash 7mo agoI don't know what chemistry exactly these cells are using, but in sodium-ion batteries, prussian blue analogs as they are called are common anode materials. Overcharging these cells can lead to a release of hydrogen cyanide gas, notoriously known as Zyklon B. It has damped my enthusiasm for perusing it as a potential future home energy storage solution.
- cyberax 7mo agoJust wait until you find out about hydrogen sulfide from overcharged car batteries. Also, I think HCN can be scrubbed by adding a special absorptive cap onto the battery.
- devwastaken 7mo agohydrogen sulfide is not anywhere in the same category. When you consider failure you have to consider what is the most catastrophic possibility and if that is “this battery silently kills people” then you dont make it.
- cyberax 7mo ago> hydrogen sulfide is not anywhere in the same category. It has the same LD50 dose as HCN. It literally _is_ just as bad. It routinely kills people on oil rigs because in lethal concentrations it immediately shuts off your nose. How often do you hear about people getting poisoned by it from lead-acid batteries?
- zdragnar 7mo agoThe only people with any significant amount of lead acid batteries on their property are off grid types who typically store them away from their primary domicile as a fire safety precaution. Fast charging a car/chemical weapon in your garage isn't terribly appealing.
- Dylan16807 7mo ago
- cyberax 7mo agoJust remember, the US Na-Ion battery startup died last year with _products_ _in_ _warehouses_ just because it couldn't get a UL certification. All it needed was a bridge loan. And the government did nothing.
- btheunissen 7mo agoStarting to think that the American century of humiliation meme was prophetic.
- iugtmkbdfil834 7mo agoOne could argue that in that case, doing nothing was very much a choice.
- joe_mamba 7mo ago"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake"
- trynumber9 7mo ago>And the government did nothing. Why didn't a private investment company, even venture capital, extend them a bridge loan? It seems like the type of technology that could have decent returns in licensing fees. I ask this question because it seems odd to someone in the software world so flooded with startups that the government would be expected to intercede on behalf of a startup.
- cyberax 7mo agoApparently, there were shenanigans from investors/creditors. So the company got quietly carved up instead of going through a bankruptcy auction. I'm looking forward to the eventual investigational report. BTW, the company was Natron Energy.
- wat10000 7mo agoDecent returns aren't enough for a risky investment, they need to be spectacular returns. The benefit to the country as a whole is potentially large, but most of it wouldn't show up as profit for the company itself. I'm sure it would do quite well if it was successful, but the benefits to car manufacturers and to having this sort of technology on-shore would not translate into monetary returns on private investment. That's the sort of thing government intervention is good for.
- thescriptkiddie 7mo agonote that the quoted 170Wh/kg is about the same as currently available LiFePO4 cells and half that of the best available NMC cells
- dboreham 7mo agoPeople posting claims about EV charging time should be required to also post the size of cable required. And the grid capacity needed to provide their fast charging at a typical 8-bay charging site.
- adrian_b 7mo agoThe grid capacity depends only on the number of charged cars, not on their charging speeds. The latest high-power chargers made in China that achieve the 5-minute charge times have their own batteries for providing the charge power, so they take from the grid only the average power, not the peak power.
- TheSpiceIsLife 7mo ago[dead]
- NullPrefix 7mo agocould a charging site have a buffer of fast charging batteries?
- SoftTalker 7mo agoYes, but have you ever seen 8 queues of cars, about 8-10 cars in each, at Sams Club or Costco buying gas? You'd need a awful lot of battery buffer to keep up with that kind of demand. At some point you'd deplete the batteries and be stuck with charging at whatever rate the grid connection could deliver.
- scq 7mo agoWith EVs, most of your charging should be done at home, with fast charging mostly just existing for trips. I know not everyone can charge at home (especially if you live in an apartment), but the solution to that is pretty straightforward and a lot more convenient compared with trying to scale up fast charging to match petrol stations.
- 7mo ago
- Animats 7mo ago"CATL’s “Naxtra” sodium-ion batteries achieve an energy density of up to 175 Wh/kg, the company said, putting it on par with lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries." Useful, but not a "breakthrough" in energy density. More like another good low-end option.
- api 7mo agoSodium is a lot more abundant than lithium. Scaled up this could be a breakthrough in battery cost per kWh.
- trhway 7mo agolithium cost $22/kg. 1 KW/h is 0.2kg lithium in 5 kg of batteries that costs $100 retail on AliExpress. So it isn't about lithium price. It seems that just manufacturing and delivering a 1kg of low-mid-complexity stuff comes about $20/kg. (just for example - a car weights 1000-2000kg and costs $30K)
- himata4113 7mo agohuh? shipping 10t of metal via ocean to europe is ~3k if you want it fast, less if it's batched with other deliveries. (I would know. I've purchased some)
- nandomrumber 7mo ago>> low-mid-complexity stuff > metal One of these things is a manufacturing input (metal), where as the other (stuff) is a manufacturing output. Steel mills are on a different scale altogether. And anyway, the wholesale price of steel to manufacturing industry is around the $2.50 / kg mark for plate and hot rolled sections, but you have to be buying it by the hundreds or tonnes up qualifying for those prices.
- himata4113 7mo agoeither the OP is a poorly worded statement or I lost the plot, we're talking about shipping cost here? the price of lithium is a very big factor for battery pricing?
- himata4113 7mo agolots of exciting battery developments in general, especially if donut labs by some miracle is not a fraud. it was a bit worrying as there was somewhat of a stagnation in battery chemistry, but having non toxic/dangerous battery storage is going to make off-griding so much more attractive. technically speaking, if every household had solar panels and batteries it would not only be cheaper than the grid it would also have complete independence from oil fluctuations, weather disasters and centralization. now if you combine that with electric cars that charge off your off-grid system and transition to eletric appliances instead of something like gas the benefits keep stacking all while being pretty much net neutral post manufacturing.
- brightball 7mo agoHaving some natural gas purely as a secondary emergency heat source is well worth it IMO.
- blondie9x 7mo agoIt might not be needed though if you have a battery generator and enough solar panels. But if you have a BBQ with propane and the sun didn't shine for many many days that should be sufficient.
- aidenn0 7mo agoYour comment is ambiguous; in the event that anybody is interpreting this as "use your propane BBQ to heat your house" don't do that. You are highly likely to get a first-hand experience of CO toxicity.
- himata4113 7mo agohaving a military grade generator (can pick up decomissioned ones for pretty cheap) as a backup still works.
- brightball 7mo agoI was thinking just high heat output gas logs. Heat source, you can cook on them and it's not loud.
- freakynit 7mo agoHow much assumption we can make here that advanced AI systems, kinda like Google's Alphafold, but customized for chemistry, is helping accelerate such breakthroughs?
- hbarka 7mo agoI still remember in 2016 when Elon Musk made a big announcement about his "acqui-hire" of the Dalhousie University EV battery research team led by Dr Jeff Dahn. There was much fanfare and announcements of million-mile batteries and 3% increase in energy density every year. Moving on from miracle batteries to Thai rescue to Hyperloop tunnels and presently to data centers in orbit.
- cromka 7mo agoWe was an electronic music producer in-between and a pro-level gamer. Let's not forget these achievements, either.
- ZeroGravitas 7mo agoElon is a fraud but Jeff Dahn and Dalhousie are legit. Lithium batteries have been increasing in density at about twice that rate for the last decade. And million mile LFP batteries are available, NCM is nearing that benchmark. All credit to the people who actually research and build them which is not Elon, since Tesla don't even produce the majority of their own battery usage.
- porsager 7mo agoIt's surprising how far there is from discovery to production for these kinds of things. It's 14 years ago now that I designed the front cover for Advanced Energi Materials[1] wherein my friend described his similar discovery of the incredible properties of LiMnO4 with Carbon Nanotubes. Even though he had it working with measurable improvements in the 20-40x range he said it would take 10-20 years to reach a state for mass production. [1] https://advanced.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/aenm.201290014 https://advanced.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/aen...
- atoav 7mo agoI wasn't surprised the least. But I am also a hardware guy. Going into production with such new technologies means first making aure it is even feasible for mass production and long term use. There are ways to speed up these tests, but if you need a battery to last 10+ years, you will only be able to speed it up by so much — especially if it is new experimental tech. If it is, there are probably multiple intermediate small scale experiments and then the tooling and production line technology might still need to be developed as well. Someone in a lab making a theoretical discovery is not the same as something making sense commercially in the slightest.
- Peteragain 7mo agoEconomy of scale is an engineer's wet dream: the biggest of everything (And a fit with the bureaucrat's dream of a bigger budget). Move fast and break things says the opposite. Set up the production line to make one small one, and the next one better. Repeat. This is a far better approach with developing tech, and applies to power provision. The challenge is to get a market for the early versions when we all know the next will be better. Saying LiPo suck, and Chinese Tech is bad? Just part of the PR sales pitch to get us to try the better alternative. I'd bet on non rechargeable mag-air batteries made with sea water and off peak wind power myself :-)
- leecarraher 7mo agoI understand charge time is a concern, but it is'nt the theoretical limitation of really any battery technology. From the computing parlance it's embarrassingly parallel. More, smaller cells allows for more current => faster charge times. theoretical limitations: energy density, number of cycles economics limitation: material and manufacturing costs. infrastructure limitations: grids to power these charge rates at scale Sodium Ion is promising because it drastically lowers the material cost. Cheap batteries can help solve the infrastructure problems as energy reservoirs, but I am more or less not swayed by the fast charge time break through. I can show doubling charge time with some AAs.