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Nanny state discovers Linux, demands it check kids' IDs before booting
- functionmouse 8mo agoWe have got to do something about the bad powerful people!
- iamnothere 8mo agoI think it’s more that they have no idea that Linux exists, or headless operating systems used on servers and embedded devices. They are trying to legislate based on the experience of having an iPhone. FOSS (and frankly all systems that don’t use walled garden commercial app stores) should be exempted from this, at a minimum.
- forinti 8mo agoOr maybe the likes of MS lobbied for this because it suits them.
- dd8601fn 8mo agoIf it’s like the Illinois one, all of tech are probably behind them, because these shift age verification away from service providers to a self-reported age bracket at the OS level. It’s much safer than what some idiotic states are doing (like upload your photo id to services where it gets stolen). The idea is a parent or guardian is probably setting up a device. They make a user account for their kid and specify a user age. The OS then can supply one of four age brackets to service providers.
- iamnothere 8mo agoKeep repeating those talking points, we all know what this is really about. It’s bad enough as it is, and it’s the foot in the door for much worse. Before now, nobody has ever tried to legislate how an OS should work. This is unprecedented and unconstitutional.
- gzread 8mo agoHow has HN gotten to this point where citing the actual text of a proposed law is downvoted while wild speculation is not? There are already laws about OSes, that they shouldn't spy on you and so on.
- iamnothere 8mo agoFeel free to cite an extant American law that explicitly defines how an OS should behave. You won’t find one. Again, this is unprecedented.
- gzread 8mo agoThe ADA?
- iamnothere 8mo agoWhere does it explicitly mention operating systems? Ok, so you’ll say that it just applies to operating systems even though it’s not explicitly mentioned. Show me where the ADA has been used successfully in a lawsuit against an OS developer for the construction of their OS. I’ll wait!
- gzread 8mo agoShow me where the California age attestation law, or any other law you don't like has
- iamnothere 8mo ago(e) (1) “Covered application store” means a publicly available internet website, software application, online service, or platform that distributes and facilitates the download of applications from third-party developers to users of a computer, a mobile device, or any other general purpose computing that can access a covered application store or can download an application. (2) “Covered application store” does not mean an online service or platform that distributes extensions, plug-ins, add-ons, or other software applications that run exclusively within a separate host application. (f) “Developer” means a person that owns, maintains, or controls an application. (g) “Operating system provider” means a person or entity that develops, licenses, or controls the operating system software on a computer, mobile device, or any other general purpose computing device. ... 1798.501. (a) An operating system provider shall do all of the following: (1) Provide an accessible interface at account setup that requires an account holder to indicate the birth date, age, or both, of the user of that device for the purpose of providing a signal regarding the user’s age bracket to applications available in a covered application store. (2) Provide a developer who has requested a signal with respect to a particular user with a digital signal via a reasonably consistent real-time application programming interface that identifies, at a minimum, which of the following categories pertains to the user: &c. So yes, OSes are mentioned directly. The lawsuits will only come after it goes into effect.
- NoraCodes 8mo agoThis headline is misleading. The California law requires that the OS store and provide the age bracket. It does not require that any verification take place. I am not arguing that this is a good idea, but it is simply false that the law requires that Linux 'check kids' IDs before booting'. The New York law is worse, and should be opposed, but the article only mentions it at the end - and even then, we actually don't know what the verification mechanism would be. I've heard a proposal that "age verification passes" be sold at liqour stores and porno shops, for example, who already seem to do an acceptable job of checking ID without destroying people's privacy.
- g947o 8mo agoSure the headline is misleading. But anyone from 10 miles away could see what's going to happen next.
- gzread 8mo agoAre there any other places this argument could apply or is it specifically this one? Like if I said "Yes, the university reserves the right to expel students who defecate on the teacher's desk. But we all know where this is going." that'd be pretty crazy, wouldn't it?
- xboxnolifes 8mo agoIf universities didn't have the right to expel students at all and that was proposed, and they had a history of turning small law into totally encompassing law, I would fairly confidently say that the university is on the path to obtain the ability to expel students for any reason it seems fit. So yes, we all know where this is going.
- gzread 8mo agoDo open source operating systems have a history of turning small law into totally encompassing law? I guess systemd.
- m132 8mo ago> The real problem is this hodgepodge of laws; it's the growth of the surveillance state. From voting rights in the United States, facing Trump's Orwellian-named SAVE America Act, to Ring's doggie tracking system that can also be used to follow people, to Trump booting Anthropic to the side for refusing to allow its AI tools to be used for mass surveillance, privacy is on the decline. I understand it is popular to pick on the current administration, and there are plenty of rightful reasons to, but let's not forget this has been happening way before either of Trump's terms (see: KYC laws). The only difference between then and now is that current administration has essentially taken a mask-off approach, so we get to see this discussion finally brought up by mainstream media outlets.
- mothballed 8mo agoI don't think it's unique to America either. It's just the ebb and flow of the envelope of possibilities for central governance as technology and culture changes. FATF has managed to implement KYC worldwide, even in banana republics at least for the peasant without connections.
- quesera 8mo agoYou're not wrong, but there is a huge difference between moving US government regulated currency to (possibly) foreign and (possibly) nefarious actors, and this.
- m132 8mo agoEver since KYC was extended to cover cryptocurrency exchanges, I have given up any faith in that this is solely about regulated currencies, or money laundering at all.
- quesera 8mo agoI don't understand this position. Cryptocurrency exchanges are the primary legal touch point (fiat offramp) for a lot of criminal activity. Of course they will get attention for AML.
- pelagicAustral 8mo agoBe nice to hear Linus' take on it.
- phendrenad2 8mo agoDepends on how much he wants to anger his employer, which supports the bill.
- LtWorf 8mo agoIf you want interesting takes ask RMS.
- superkuh 8mo agoRMS was right, again. He called it decades ago in "The Right to Read". It must be extremely frustrating to see all this and know what changes need to be made to stop it and then have it happen anyway. Over and over.
- big-and-small 8mo agoNext step after age verification through ID will be making sharing of computer with others illegal. And Right to Read was already written back in 1997: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
- mghackerlady 8mo agoI really should do that, plus GNU needs to decide whether or not to comply with these laws (GNU is an operating system, albeit an unconventional one with 2 kernels)
- hsnewman 8mo agoBiased headline indicates misleading contents.
- jmclnx 8mo ago> Jef Spaleta, the Fedora Project leader, isn't sure of the legalities, but he thinks it might be as simple as mapping "uid to usernames and group membership and having a new file in /etc/ that keeps up with age." Personally I think Linux distros should ignore this law and put a disclaimer on their download sites. I expect OpenBSD will do just that. If Linux decides to make this a requirement, I guess I know what OS I will move to next. Anyway, Instead of a new file, there are optional fields in /etc/passwd that can be used for "age". These fields can be added as comma separated fields. But, maybe he is thinking of making the new file readable only by root ?
- randusername 8mo agoMany parents will not be proactive in protecting their children online and I think this is a legitimate societal problem. The idea of algorithmic feeds for adult content that descend into increasingly "engaging" depictions is something I find horrifying. I do not want my kids to experience those "loss of innocence" moments too soon by letting their curiosity lead them into things they are not equipped to confront yet. Hell, I still have those moments as an adult on occasion. There has to be steps we can take as a society to address these legitimate challenges ourselves so that governments can no longer hide behind them in tinkering with mechanisms for stability and control. Maybe a "sunlight disinfects" approach.
- butILoveLife 8mo agoHuh... I am the opposite. I want my kids exposed to the brutal realities of the world asap. I reflect that my innocence caused me to make some extreme major mistakes as a young adult that took a decade to show itself. I cannot go back, and now I am suffering terribly. I blame my parents at least a little bit, but I blame western idealism more majorly.
- hrimfaxi 8mo agoI am intrigued by this. I have long thought that exposing children to optimism and "what could be" allows them to envision a world different from our own. Kind of like how once you're in capitalism it's hard to think of alternatives.
- hackinthebochs 8mo agoI've always found it strange how Americans like to validate their ideals using their kids as vehicles. Instead of teaching kids how to be successful in a less than ideal world, we teach them our ideal view of the world. Like teaching kids violence is never the answer, instead of sometimes a situation does call for violence. We raise kids for a world that doesn't exist. It's up to the kid/adult to unlearn those obviously bogus ideals after they make contact with the world. It's just odd how we're so practiced at setting up our children for less success in the real world.
- dv_dt 8mo agoHmm the Reg article seems to have missed the reporting on Meta being behind many of the US lobbying groups - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47362528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47362528
- tzs 8mo agoThey probably omitted it because it is irrelevant. It says (according to the title of the Reddit post...the body has been removed) Meta is supporting laws to collect more data, which they profit from. The Register article is about laws that were specifically designed to not give Meta and their ilk anything more than an unverified age bracket. The age reported is whatever the person who set up the account on the computer said to report.
- dv_dt 8mo agoThe body content is still here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47361235 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47361235
- jwrallie 8mo agoI started using Linux when I was in high school. I got my first job years later because I knew my way around Linux much better than other candidates. My OS never tried to track my age to prevent me doing what I wanted. I used to live in one of these places where OSs should report user’s age and I am glad my kid will grow up in one that doesn’t (yet?).
- t1234s 8mo agoI guess going forward if you are under 18 and want to learn programming and not be harassed by the government you have to go back to having and offline only computer and stack of o'reilly books?
- matheusmoreira 8mo agoSoon programming will itself require a license. Only government approved individuals will be able to write code. CPUs will only boot software signed by the government.
- shadowgovt 8mo ago"Software engineering" is one of the few large practices with 'engineering' in its name that has no mechanism for license granting and revocation for violation of professional standard. That's not what is happening here, but we might see that happen in our lifetimes. Hopefully before someone writes the software that kills enough people to necessitate licensing, not after (since generally, such outcomes are how licensing comes into being).
- gzread 8mo agoYou only need the license to work professionally, of course. You don't need a bridge building license to build with Lego.
- hahn-kev 8mo agoYou could argue that we have security licenses (eg SOC 2), however I don't think it actually succeeds in making software safe. I think software is hard because unlike a bridge, which is built with limited scope and the risk is known when it's designed, software grows to become load bearing without us really realizing it. Eg CrowdStrike, I never would have assumed that an outage could affect so much of the world.
- morkalork 8mo agoPretty clear this is the direction seeing Google's crackdown on sideloading apps on Android.
- k33n 8mo agoTotally inaccurate. The actual technical requirement is to add a self-reported age field to user creation flows, and that the value selected be made available to applications. But let's just pretend something totally different is happening. It's more exciting that way.
- zb3 8mo agoSo TempleOS is still illegal? And well, the law represents an intent.. if self-reporting won't work (obviously won't), then the scenario where PCs end up as locked down as smartphones is not far fetched.
- gzread 8mo agoJust as open source software represents the intent that all for-profit activities shall be illegal...
- curt15 8mo agoThe overwhelming majority of programmers likely cut their teeth on computers as kids. Any attempt to restrict computer access to 18+ will only handicap American programmers in the job market.
- Arch485 8mo agoOr lots of parents will put their ID into their kid's computer so that they have full access.
- tzs 8mo agoWhat ID? Most of these laws don't require any ID. They require that when the administrator of the computer sets up an account for a user the admin can enter an age or birthdate for the user, and that the OS provides an interface so that apps that user runs can ask based on that admin provided information what age bracket the user is in ([0,13), [13,16), [16,18), [18,∞)). Apps that need to make age based decisions can use that information.
- joquarky 8mo agoOnce a mechanism is in place, they can easily "refine" it.
- 201984 8mo agoYep, and a disturbing amount of people here want to pull the ladder up behind them.
- duckerduck 8mo agoWhen I was very young I installed OpenSUSE on my underpowered windows PC, it was really a hacker man experience that is engraved in my mind as a core memory. As a child I just thought it was cool to have a new and faster desktop, but as I've grown older I've stayed with Linux for its ideas and principles. Hopefully these laws can be overturned...
- BobbyJo 8mo agoThis is all just unenforceable theater. Are they going to jail or fine open source developers if they create an OS that doesn't support the requirements? Are they going to do customs checks for OSs? Firewalls? These kinds of laws just seem like unworkable messes to fool the tech ignorant into thinking they care about kids. Application side I get, there is an entity there running the application, that can be fined or banned or what have you. But software itself? No.
- gzread 8mo agoI'm flagging this for the misleading and incendiary headline.
- Refreeze5224 8mo agoHave you not ever heard of The Register? It's not a news site, it's intentionally opinionated. And the headline is accurate anyway....
- 9991 8mo agoCode is speech, so how on Earth isn't this a First Amendment violation?
- hard_times 8mo agoThis needs to be higher
- stevetron 8mo agoPerrhaps they can add ID-checking to the gnu compilers, too? lol
- 28304283409234 8mo agoThis was literally the example in the book "Weapons of Mass Instruction" by Gatto.
- _slih 8mo ago"no actual age verification" is doing a lot of work in these defenses
- exabrial 8mo agowhen you leave California, please leave the bad ideas there.
- kkfx 8mo agoCalifornia isn't the whole world, or to put it better, anyone who doesn't have a registered office there has no reason to worry about its laws. It wouldn't hurt to remind every legislator of that.