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>I guess Israel can play the "October 7th" card at least which was an insane horror. If October 7th is an "insane horror", what words will suffice to describe

>I guess Israel can play the "October 7th" card at least which was an insane horror. If October 7th is an "insane horror", what words will suffice to describe the decades of far worse crimes committed by Israel? Considering the scale of suffering caused by this conflict, October 7th was just a small blip.

epolanski 8mo ago
While I agree, and I find that Israel is on the wrong side of history, I'm not entirely into seeing this whole matter as black and white. I have the opinion that modern world history is mostly shaped around each countries/population traumas that echo through society till today. E.g. the biggest trauma of Ukrainians aren't even the events that are playing recently, but the Holodomor that happened 100 years ago. On the other hand the biggest trauma on Russian side is still the German invasion and war of annihilation happened during the second world war. As both sides see themselves as the victims and see the other side as the aggressor (or collaborator) and none has ever taken a step back to recognize their actions, they simply cannot communicate. The biggest trauma of China is the century of humiliation where western powers and Japan went above and beyond any decency in their actions. Thus, Chinese society and leadership is all about never being dictated conditions and terms by foreign powers. They see themselves as victims of events that they don't want to see ever again. The jewish Israeli population biggest trauma are centuries if not millenia of animosity, racism and violence coming from any side, last but definitely not least the Holocaust. Thus Israel is all about security at all costs, even if it means bending any sign of human decency. Again, they see themselves as victims and their actions will always go in that direction. Sadly many parts of the world, many countries, many societies, are simply too scarred and unable to take a step back from the victim mentality and recognize their own actions. Israelis are unable to recognize they are Goliath and not David from the longest time, they are unable and unwilling to say sorry, the last Israeli leader that tried, got assassinated by one of his own. The arabic/muslim population in the area too see themselves as victims of the post world war 2 events, and they are as well unable to recognize how scarred and traumatized is Israeli society from centuries of events, including modern ones where they had to survive against hostile Arab coalitions aimed to annihilate them. So, without a generation of leaders able to recognize and understand the role of history and those traumas and empathize with the other sides we're trapped in those loops of aggression.
- huevosabio 8mo ago
  This is a great post. It really sheds light to basically all the modern conflicts. Thanks.
- bavell 8mo ago
  One of the most sane and dispassionate takes I've seen. Kudos.
- cossray 8mo ago
  This really puts so many modern conflicts into perspective. Everyone sees themselves as victims. Unfortunately, a consensus on who is and isn't a victim will always be highly elusive.
- jknutson 8mo ago
  You’ve just explained my own thoughts better than I ever have been able to, especially what with the political minefield that is literally anything mentioned in your post. Brilliantly articulate. I have half a mind to commit your entire comments text to memory and just repeat it ad verbatim whenever I am asked about my opinions on these things.
- ignoramous 8mo ago
  > The jewish Israeli population biggest trauma are centuries if not millenia of animosity, racism and violence coming from any side ... is all about security at all costs, even if it means bending any sign of human decency. Again, they see themselves as victims and their actions will always go in that direction. I don't see this any different to terrorism apologia (the trauma of 1mn dead in Iraq and another million in Afghanistan, for example). I guess, if the leaders wear suits & ties and hide behind the garb of democracy, then we should all understand why military they command commit crimes against humanity. Every perpetrator of terrorism sees himself as a victim. Such is the case not only with individual terrorists, who often compete with their enemies over who is more victimized, but also with terrorist groups and nation states. - Bessel van der Kolk (author, The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma). The problem isn't the "trauma". The problem is the excuse. > they are as well unable to recognize how scarred and traumatized is Israeli society from centuries of events First, 400mn Arabs (or 2bn+ muslims) aren't a monolith or brainless zombies. Second, the "centuries of events" is just European guilt. Nothing to do with the Arab world.
dijit 8mo ago
"small blip" isn't a political take, it's just wrong. October 7th was the deadliest per capita terrorist attack since the Global Terrorism Database started recording in 1970 [1]. Globally, it's third on the all-time list (behind only 9/11 and one IS attack [1]. The confirmed death toll from Israeli social security data (not government press releases) is 1,139, which still makes it 31 times deadlier than the next worst attack in Israeli history [2][3]. You invoked scale. Those are the numbers. They don't say what you wanted them to say. And for the record: one atrocity not excusing another cuts both ways. Nobody here argued otherwise. What was actually said (by the person you're replying to) is that you cannot use scale as your framework whilst hand-waving away the single largest data point in the argument. If you mean the Nakba, Sabra and Shatila, or the current death toll in Gaza — those are serious. But "decades of far worse crimes" doing the work of making October 7th a "small blip" doesn't follow. You can have a long ledger of serious grievances and still recognise that one morning where 1,139 people were massacred (including at a music festival, in kibbutz bedrooms, in bomb shelters) was not a blip. It was the deadliest single terrorist attack per capita since records began. There is no moral argument for October 7th, and the reaction is disproportionate and unjustifiable - but inevitable. We should all be so unlucky to have neighbours like those, and nobody knows how we would all act if we did. [1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visualizing-data https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visual... [2] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social... [3] https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visualizing-data https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visual...
- Gud 8mo ago
  The reaction by the Israelis against the Palestinians is even worse
  - dijit 8mo ago
    The reaction is worse in what sense, exactly? Raw numbers? Then you're back to the same argument as above, where October 7th (again, the third deadliest terrorist attack since records began in 1970) somehow doesn't count. Nobody serious disputes that Gazan civilians are suffering enormously. The argument isn't about that. It's about whether Hamas represents them, and the answer is: less and less, given that Hamas hasn't held an election since 2006, has siphoned aid money into tunnels and rockets for two decades [1], and on October 7th sent men with garden tools to decapitate Thai agricultural workers [2] and film themselves doing it. You can condemn Israel's conduct (and there's plenty to condemn) without pretending the people who started this particular escalation were freedom fighters having a bad day. [1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visualizing-data https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visual... [2] https://www.nationthailand.com/world/middle-east-africa/40032287 https://www.nationthailand.com/world/middle-east-africa/4003...
oilproducer 8mo ago
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vehemenz 8mo ago
Can you provide some support for your moral position? You’ve also put “insane horror” in scare quotes, which honestly I find troubling. Does your moral account provide some justificatory, non-antisemitic framework based on colonialism or oppression that allows us to sidestep the issues with Gazans’ support of Jihad, other extremist doctrines, and the extermination of Jews? It’s kind of a rhetorical question, but it’s the least I would expect for someone to argue credibly about the morality of the conflict.
- albedoa 8mo ago
  They're not "scare quotes", they're quotes.
  - vehemenz 8mo ago
    Huh? In English orthography, quotes can serve multiple purposes. Most native English speakers wouldn’t see the parent’s use of quotes (quotation marks) as merely mention.
    - albedoa 8mo ago
      This isn't the least bit confusing man. The author confirms the purpose of the quotes, which is effortlessly understandable by native and non-native speakers alike. They were used to quote and comment on a direct phrase from the parent comment. You absolutely do not need to double down on whatever it is you are doing here lol. Say you were wrong and move on.
- JasonADrury 8mo ago
  Yeah, they're just quotes. It's a quote. >Can you provide some support for your moral position? Yes, of course. A bunch of people from Europe decided to move to Palestine and start a religious ethnostate there. In doing so they expelled and murdered lots of local residents. The surviving locals are understandably less than happy about this, and have continued to fight to defend their lands to this day. Since then, the those people have caused far more harm to non-jewish Palestinians than non-jewish Palestinians have caused to the those people. >allows us to sidestep the issues with Gazans’ support of Jihad, other extremist doctrines, and the extermination of Jews? It's perfectly natural that Gazans would support the extermination of jews. In the extreme environment that Israeli jews force Palestinians to live in, it's fundamentally ridiculous to even describe it as an extremist position. In a comfortable European context it's certainly extreme, but that's a fundamentally dishonest way of portraying it.

epolanski 8mo ago

While I agree, and I find that Israel is on the wrong side of history, I'm not entirely into seeing this whole matter as black and white. I have the opinion that modern world history is mostly shaped around each countries/population traumas that echo through society till today. E.g. the biggest trauma of Ukrainians aren't even the events that are playing recently, but the Holodomor that happened 100 years ago. On the other hand the biggest trauma on Russian side is still the German invasion and war of annihilation happened during the second world war. As both sides see themselves as the victims and see the other side as the aggressor (or collaborator) and none has ever taken a step back to recognize their actions, they simply cannot communicate. The biggest trauma of China is the century of humiliation where western powers and Japan went above and beyond any decency in their actions. Thus, Chinese society and leadership is all about never being dictated conditions and terms by foreign powers. They see themselves as victims of events that they don't want to see ever again. The jewish Israeli population biggest trauma are centuries if not millenia of animosity, racism and violence coming from any side, last but definitely not least the Holocaust. Thus Israel is all about security at all costs, even if it means bending any sign of human decency. Again, they see themselves as victims and their actions will always go in that direction. Sadly many parts of the world, many countries, many societies, are simply too scarred and unable to take a step back from the victim mentality and recognize their own actions. Israelis are unable to recognize they are Goliath and not David from the longest time, they are unable and unwilling to say sorry, the last Israeli leader that tried, got assassinated by one of his own. The arabic/muslim population in the area too see themselves as victims of the post world war 2 events, and they are as well unable to recognize how scarred and traumatized is Israeli society from centuries of events, including modern ones where they had to survive against hostile Arab coalitions aimed to annihilate them. So, without a generation of leaders able to recognize and understand the role of history and those traumas and empathize with the other sides we're trapped in those loops of aggression.

huevosabio 8mo ago
This is a great post. It really sheds light to basically all the modern conflicts. Thanks.
bavell 8mo ago
One of the most sane and dispassionate takes I've seen. Kudos.
cossray 8mo ago
This really puts so many modern conflicts into perspective. Everyone sees themselves as victims. Unfortunately, a consensus on who is and isn't a victim will always be highly elusive.
jknutson 8mo ago
You’ve just explained my own thoughts better than I ever have been able to, especially what with the political minefield that is literally anything mentioned in your post. Brilliantly articulate. I have half a mind to commit your entire comments text to memory and just repeat it ad verbatim whenever I am asked about my opinions on these things.
ignoramous 8mo ago
> The jewish Israeli population biggest trauma are centuries if not millenia of animosity, racism and violence coming from any side ... is all about security at all costs, even if it means bending any sign of human decency. Again, they see themselves as victims and their actions will always go in that direction. I don't see this any different to terrorism apologia (the trauma of 1mn dead in Iraq and another million in Afghanistan, for example). I guess, if the leaders wear suits & ties and hide behind the garb of democracy, then we should all understand why military they command commit crimes against humanity. Every perpetrator of terrorism sees himself as a victim. Such is the case not only with individual terrorists, who often compete with their enemies over who is more victimized, but also with terrorist groups and nation states. - Bessel van der Kolk (author, The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma). The problem isn't the "trauma". The problem is the excuse. > they are as well unable to recognize how scarred and traumatized is Israeli society from centuries of events First, 400mn Arabs (or 2bn+ muslims) aren't a monolith or brainless zombies. Second, the "centuries of events" is just European guilt. Nothing to do with the Arab world.

dijit 8mo ago

"small blip" isn't a political take, it's just wrong. October 7th was the deadliest per capita terrorist attack since the Global Terrorism Database started recording in 1970 [1]. Globally, it's third on the all-time list (behind only 9/11 and one IS attack [1]. The confirmed death toll from Israeli social security data (not government press releases) is 1,139, which still makes it 31 times deadlier than the next worst attack in Israeli history [2][3]. You invoked scale. Those are the numbers. They don't say what you wanted them to say. And for the record: one atrocity not excusing another cuts both ways. Nobody here argued otherwise. What was actually said (by the person you're replying to) is that you cannot use scale as your framework whilst hand-waving away the single largest data point in the argument. If you mean the Nakba, Sabra and Shatila, or the current death toll in Gaza — those are serious. But "decades of far worse crimes" doing the work of making October 7th a "small blip" doesn't follow. You can have a long ledger of serious grievances and still recognise that one morning where 1,139 people were massacred (including at a music festival, in kibbutz bedrooms, in bomb shelters) was not a blip. It was the deadliest single terrorist attack per capita since records began. There is no moral argument for October 7th, and the reaction is disproportionate and unjustifiable - but inevitable. We should all be so unlucky to have neighbours like those, and nobody knows how we would all act if we did. [1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visualizing-data https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visual... [2] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social... [3] https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visualizing-data https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visual...

Gud 8mo ago
The reaction by the Israelis against the Palestinians is even worse
- dijit 8mo ago
  The reaction is worse in what sense, exactly? Raw numbers? Then you're back to the same argument as above, where October 7th (again, the third deadliest terrorist attack since records began in 1970) somehow doesn't count. Nobody serious disputes that Gazan civilians are suffering enormously. The argument isn't about that. It's about whether Hamas represents them, and the answer is: less and less, given that Hamas hasn't held an election since 2006, has siphoned aid money into tunnels and rockets for two decades [1], and on October 7th sent men with garden tools to decapitate Thai agricultural workers [2] and film themselves doing it. You can condemn Israel's conduct (and there's plenty to condemn) without pretending the people who started this particular escalation were freedom fighters having a bad day. [1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visualizing-data https://www.csis.org/analysis/hamass-october-7-attack-visual... [2] https://www.nationthailand.com/world/middle-east-africa/40032287 https://www.nationthailand.com/world/middle-east-africa/4003...

oilproducer 8mo ago

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vehemenz 8mo ago

Can you provide some support for your moral position? You’ve also put “insane horror” in scare quotes, which honestly I find troubling. Does your moral account provide some justificatory, non-antisemitic framework based on colonialism or oppression that allows us to sidestep the issues with Gazans’ support of Jihad, other extremist doctrines, and the extermination of Jews? It’s kind of a rhetorical question, but it’s the least I would expect for someone to argue credibly about the morality of the conflict.

albedoa 8mo ago
They're not "scare quotes", they're quotes.
- vehemenz 8mo ago
  Huh? In English orthography, quotes can serve multiple purposes. Most native English speakers wouldn’t see the parent’s use of quotes (quotation marks) as merely mention.
  - albedoa 8mo ago
    This isn't the least bit confusing man. The author confirms the purpose of the quotes, which is effortlessly understandable by native and non-native speakers alike. They were used to quote and comment on a direct phrase from the parent comment. You absolutely do not need to double down on whatever it is you are doing here lol. Say you were wrong and move on.
JasonADrury 8mo ago
Yeah, they're just quotes. It's a quote. >Can you provide some support for your moral position? Yes, of course. A bunch of people from Europe decided to move to Palestine and start a religious ethnostate there. In doing so they expelled and murdered lots of local residents. The surviving locals are understandably less than happy about this, and have continued to fight to defend their lands to this day. Since then, the those people have caused far more harm to non-jewish Palestinians than non-jewish Palestinians have caused to the those people. >allows us to sidestep the issues with Gazans’ support of Jihad, other extremist doctrines, and the extermination of Jews? It's perfectly natural that Gazans would support the extermination of jews. In the extreme environment that Israeli jews force Palestinians to live in, it's fundamentally ridiculous to even describe it as an extremist position. In a comfortable European context it's certainly extreme, but that's a fundamentally dishonest way of portraying it.