4 ms·

Oh hell yeah, we can finally stop the braindead attempts to make a safe self-driving car with just cameras.

by khafra 8mo ago

throwaway473825 8mo ago
Is there anyone using only cameras except Tesla?
- Betelbuddy 8mo ago
  Nope...
- simondotau 8mo ago
  Xpeng, Wayne, aiMotive to name three. Probably many others, who claim to use LIDAR but don’t actually rely on it. Because LIDAR is perceived as a prerequisite for autonomous safety, admitting to not needing it is a bad PR move — for now.
  - Betelbuddy 8mo ago
    There is a massive technical difference between Vision first but with LiDAR redundancy vs No LiDAR at all that is Tesla approach. Those are not the same architecture. So claiming XPeng, Waymo, or aiMotive validate Tesla is technically misleading. XPeng system is sensor fusion. It is not camera only. Waymo is even clearer. For them LiDAR is not optional. aiMotive has now started to market camera only, but its experimental, no production deployments.
    - simondotau 8mo ago
      Xpeng is abandoning sensor fusion. aiMotive has never bothered with sensor fusion. I never mentioned Waymo; unfortunately the AI gods at Apple auto-corrected me typing Wayve, as in Wayve Technologies Ltd. Tesla FSD is not accurately described as a "no LIDAR at all" approach, if you're attempting to contrast it to other LIDAR-trained systems like aiMotive, Xpeng and Wayve.
- culi 8mo ago
  Tesla is using radars as well as cameras. No one is using only cameras
KeplerBoy 8mo ago
Tesla actually re-introduced radar sensors in HW4. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hardware-4-hd-radar-first-look-photos/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hardware-4-hd-radar-first-lo... They might not use them for autopilot, but maybe for some emergency braking stuff, when everything else failed.
- torginus 8mo ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if this was a better solution. I think while radar might have a worse spatial resolution, it's depth perception, speed measurement capability, and general robustness to adverse weather might make it a better complementary sensor. Lidar struggles with things like rain and snow way worse than cameras do.
small_model 8mo ago
Yes, silly using just cameras, I mean humans have Lidar sensors, that why they can drive, why didn't new just copy that....oh wait. It all seriousness though, Tesla are producing cyber cabs now which are 10th the price of Waymo's and can drive autonomously anywhere in the world. I think we can see where this is going. (Hint: not well for Waymo) Also the article is speculative 'MicroVision says its sensor could one day break the $100 barrier'. One day...
- lccerina 8mo ago
  Humans also don't have wheels, but we build objects with wheels. It is as if we can build objects that don't resemble humans for specific purposes. Crazy...
- disillusioned 8mo ago
  This is a weirdly tired counterpoint that Elon and Elonstans like to bandy about as if it's an apples to apples comparison. Humans have a weirdly ultra-high-dynamic-range binocular vision system mounted on an advanced ptz/swivel gimbal that allows for a great degree of freedom of movement, parallax effects, and a complex heuristic system for analyzing vision data. The Tesla FSD system has... well, sure, a few more cameras, but they're low resolution, and in inconveniently fixed locations. My alley has an occlusion at the corner where it connects to the main road: a very tall, very ample bush that basically makes it impossible to authoritatively check oncoming traffic to my left. I, a human, can determine that if I see the light flicker even slightly as it filters through the bushes, that the path is not clear: a car is likely causing that very slight change in light. My Tesla has no clue at all that that's happening. And worse, the perpendicular camera responsible for checking cross-traffic is mounted _behind my head_ on the b-pillar, in a fixed location that means that without nosing my car _into_ the travel lane, there is literally no way for it to be sure the path is clear. This edge case is navigated near-perfectly by Waymo, since its roof-mounted lidar can see above and beyond the bush and determine that the path is clear. And to hit back on the "Tesla is making cheaper cars that can drive autonomously anywhere in the world": I mean, they still aren't? Not authoritatively. Not authoritatively enough that they aren't seeing all sorts of interventions in the few "driverless" trials they're doing in Austin. Not authoritatively enough when I have my Tesla FSD to glory. It works well enough on the fat part of the bell curve, but those edges will get you, and a vision only system means that it is extremely brittle in certain conditions and with certain failure modes, that a lidar/radar backup help _enhance_. Moreover, Waymo has brought lidar development in-house, they're working to dramatically reduce their vehicle platform cost by reducing some redundant sensors, and they can now simulate a ground truth model of an absurd number of edge cases and odd scenarios, as well as simulate different conditions for real-world locations in parallel with their new world modeling systems. None of which reads to me as "not going well for Waymo." Waymo completes over 450,000 fully autonomous rides per week right now. They're dramatically lowering their own barriers to new cities/geographies/conditions, and they're pushing down the cost per unit substantially. Yeah, it won't get to be as cheap as Tesla owning the entire means of production, but I'm still extremely bullish on Waymo being the frontrunner for autonomous driving for the foreseeable future.

Oh hell yeah, we can finally stop the braindead attempts to make a safe self-driving car with just cameras.

by khafra 8mo ago

Oh hell yeah, we can finally stop the braindead attempts to make a safe self-driving car with just cameras.

throwaway473825 8mo ago

Is there anyone using only cameras except Tesla?

Betelbuddy 8mo ago
Nope...
simondotau 8mo ago
Xpeng, Wayne, aiMotive to name three. Probably many others, who claim to use LIDAR but don’t actually rely on it. Because LIDAR is perceived as a prerequisite for autonomous safety, admitting to not needing it is a bad PR move — for now.
- Betelbuddy 8mo ago
  There is a massive technical difference between Vision first but with LiDAR redundancy vs No LiDAR at all that is Tesla approach. Those are not the same architecture. So claiming XPeng, Waymo, or aiMotive validate Tesla is technically misleading. XPeng system is sensor fusion. It is not camera only. Waymo is even clearer. For them LiDAR is not optional. aiMotive has now started to market camera only, but its experimental, no production deployments.
  - simondotau 8mo ago
    Xpeng is abandoning sensor fusion. aiMotive has never bothered with sensor fusion. I never mentioned Waymo; unfortunately the AI gods at Apple auto-corrected me typing Wayve, as in Wayve Technologies Ltd. Tesla FSD is not accurately described as a "no LIDAR at all" approach, if you're attempting to contrast it to other LIDAR-trained systems like aiMotive, Xpeng and Wayve.
culi 8mo ago
Tesla is using radars as well as cameras. No one is using only cameras

KeplerBoy 8mo ago

Tesla actually re-introduced radar sensors in HW4. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hardware-4-hd-radar-first-look-photos/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hardware-4-hd-radar-first-lo... They might not use them for autopilot, but maybe for some emergency braking stuff, when everything else failed.

torginus 8mo ago
I wouldn't be surprised if this was a better solution. I think while radar might have a worse spatial resolution, it's depth perception, speed measurement capability, and general robustness to adverse weather might make it a better complementary sensor. Lidar struggles with things like rain and snow way worse than cameras do.

small_model 8mo ago

Yes, silly using just cameras, I mean humans have Lidar sensors, that why they can drive, why didn't new just copy that....oh wait. It all seriousness though, Tesla are producing cyber cabs now which are 10th the price of Waymo's and can drive autonomously anywhere in the world. I think we can see where this is going. (Hint: not well for Waymo) Also the article is speculative 'MicroVision says its sensor could one day break the $100 barrier'. One day...

lccerina 8mo ago
Humans also don't have wheels, but we build objects with wheels. It is as if we can build objects that don't resemble humans for specific purposes. Crazy...
disillusioned 8mo ago
This is a weirdly tired counterpoint that Elon and Elonstans like to bandy about as if it's an apples to apples comparison. Humans have a weirdly ultra-high-dynamic-range binocular vision system mounted on an advanced ptz/swivel gimbal that allows for a great degree of freedom of movement, parallax effects, and a complex heuristic system for analyzing vision data. The Tesla FSD system has... well, sure, a few more cameras, but they're low resolution, and in inconveniently fixed locations. My alley has an occlusion at the corner where it connects to the main road: a very tall, very ample bush that basically makes it impossible to authoritatively check oncoming traffic to my left. I, a human, can determine that if I see the light flicker even slightly as it filters through the bushes, that the path is not clear: a car is likely causing that very slight change in light. My Tesla has no clue at all that that's happening. And worse, the perpendicular camera responsible for checking cross-traffic is mounted _behind my head_ on the b-pillar, in a fixed location that means that without nosing my car _into_ the travel lane, there is literally no way for it to be sure the path is clear. This edge case is navigated near-perfectly by Waymo, since its roof-mounted lidar can see above and beyond the bush and determine that the path is clear. And to hit back on the "Tesla is making cheaper cars that can drive autonomously anywhere in the world": I mean, they still aren't? Not authoritatively. Not authoritatively enough that they aren't seeing all sorts of interventions in the few "driverless" trials they're doing in Austin. Not authoritatively enough when I have my Tesla FSD to glory. It works well enough on the fat part of the bell curve, but those edges will get you, and a vision only system means that it is extremely brittle in certain conditions and with certain failure modes, that a lidar/radar backup help _enhance_. Moreover, Waymo has brought lidar development in-house, they're working to dramatically reduce their vehicle platform cost by reducing some redundant sensors, and they can now simulate a ground truth model of an absurd number of edge cases and odd scenarios, as well as simulate different conditions for real-world locations in parallel with their new world modeling systems. None of which reads to me as "not going well for Waymo." Waymo completes over 450,000 fully autonomous rides per week right now. They're dramatically lowering their own barriers to new cities/geographies/conditions, and they're pushing down the cost per unit substantially. Yeah, it won't get to be as cheap as Tesla owning the entire means of production, but I'm still extremely bullish on Waymo being the frontrunner for autonomous driving for the foreseeable future.