4 ms·

As much as I like many Windows versions, the corporate idiocy of the company behind the OS is indeed something else.

alex1138 9mo ago
This is true with a lot of companies. If you made people actually use their own product (do they?!) maybe they'd think twice before doing boneheaded things Then again, I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem
- yoyohello13 9mo ago
  I remember I was at a Python conference some years ago and every Microsoft dev I saw had a MacBook. So no, I don’t think they use their own product internally.
  - dmix 9mo ago
    The only thing worse than work-from-office is mandatory work-on-windows.
    - jiggawatts 9mo ago
      If only there was something Microsoft’s developers could do about that…
  - ethagnawl 9mo ago
    As an aside, I used to know a number of MS heads who ran Windows on Mac Intel machines because they preferred the hardware (~2014 MBP) and/or because they ostensibly worked at Mac shops and were handed one upon entry.
    - badc0ffee 9mo ago
      If I still had to use Windows I'd want a laptop with home/end/ins/del/pgup/pgdn keys, and alt/win in the right place.
      - eviks 9mo ago
        The last issue is solvd in software, the first one has a good workaround in software
    - matwood 9mo ago
      Long ago at this point when my job required windows, the best experience for me was running it in a VM on a MBP. Actually worked quite well since it was easy stop/start windows and segmented work off on its own.
  - stuaxo 9mo ago
    Using Windows as a python dev is a complete pain.
- gerdesj 9mo ago
  "I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem" They don't make money (put bread on the table) by selling Windows any more. That is soooo 2000s. Income is from data mining and from subscriptions to cloudy offerings that are mostly MVP (Minimum Viable Product). Oh, and hyping their perceived value to the point that the term "meme stock" is no longer just a joke.
- userbinator 9mo ago
  If you made people actually use their own product (do they?!) Yes, they do. Unfortunately even MS employees are powerless to do anything about the crap that gets shoved into Windows by other employees working at the company, and the ones who complain about it are quietly shown the door or have already left of their own will, leaving only those who are completely apathetic or... Then again, I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem Exactly. That and the desire to remain in the country --- part of the reason why companies like H-1Bs so much is because they are going to be far more docile and less willing to resist doing things they feel are wrong.
dismalaf 9mo ago
With the way the economy is going (some call it K-shaped) it's more profitable to squeeze as hard as you can and extract as much as possible out of whales versus trying to have mass market appeal. Azure, Office and Copilot will sustain them. Nvidia is doing something similar where they're just extracting as much as possible out of AI companies and not caring one bit about consumers.
- gruez 9mo ago
  >With the way the economy is going (some call it K-shaped) it's more profitable to squeeze as hard as you can and extract as much as possible out of whales versus trying to have mass market appeal How does whatever microsoft is doing to windows line up with that?
  - ffsm8 9mo ago
    Hmm, it does line up with that from my perspective too. It's just a different way to say "you're the product, not the customer" if you look at the statement from a neutral perspective - the whale being the actual customer, who changes all the time depending on what Microsoft MBAs think might have the highest potential value they can extract.
    - gruez 9mo ago
      >the whale being the actual customer, who changes all the time depending on what Microsoft MBAs think might have the highest potential value they can extract. Who's the "whale" in this context? Windows users who subscribe to copilot? Enterprise? Advertisers?
      - dismalaf 9mo ago
        Enterprise.
  - dismalaf 9mo ago
    Enterprises are the whales. Microsoft sells user management, Office, Copilot, Outlook, etc... all bundled together for more per seat per year than a consumer will spend or generate in the whole lifecycle of their device. Nevermind Azure. So consumers are mostly ignored, except as a testbed to shove AI and ads.
neilv 9mo ago
Never ascribe to stupidity, that which has been proven to be malice.
- grugagag 9mo ago
  Yeah, they delivered whatever they delivered on purpose. Sometimes I imagine MS is playingn Lemmings with their users to reach their corporate goals.
- Ferret7446 9mo ago
  I doubt the various shitty parts of Windows (not the forced AI/whatever) is due to malice, unless you mean employees maliciously trying to destroy the company.
  - stuartd 9mo ago
    Hanlon’s razor applies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
  - yndoendo 9mo ago
    I would say the malice is from management, investors, and product leads. Developers just do what they are told. Microsoft is choosing enshitification versus quality. CEO needs to pump that stock and having enterprise locked into without alternatives helps them. I grew up with Microsoft and now you have to pay me to use their products. I would never choose their OS for product hosting. Even their embedded / IoT is trying to force a Microsoft account and push against local user.
    - aunty_helen 9mo ago
      Or are they trying to move users onto other platforms, more modern platforms that users are more comfortable paying for. Desktops existed before punching in your credit card numbers was a common thing, that history is hard to shrug. Xbox for gamers, mobile for everyone else and business editions of windows for the enterprise.
    - 9mo ago
cedws 9mo ago
I get the impression that a lot of the old guard are long gone from the Windows team or have no influence. Raymond Chen is still around but not sure how much he actually works on Windows day to day.
- ecshafer 9mo ago
  Microsoft was founded in 1975. 1981 was the first DOS release. 1985 was the first release of Windows. 40 years working on windows is a long time, I would be surprised if anyone for the original team is left at this point. Even someone joining out of college in 2000 is now 25 years in, is 57, and could feasibly be retiring....
  - xmddmx 9mo ago
    You mean 1990. Someone graduating college in 1990 would have been about 21. That was 35 years ago, so they would be about 56 in 2025. Math is hard.
    - GenerocUsername 9mo ago
      Cmon man, it's a comment not a research paper. Off by one isn't worth a follow up snark
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
      - sokoloff 9mo ago
        Their main point was it is off by 10; then they introduced an additional confusing question of “is it off by 10, 11, or 12?”
      - cwnyth 9mo ago
        Off by 10+1. Someone who graduated college in 2000 = 25 + 22 (4 years of college from 18) = 47, not 57, and not anywhere close to the retirement age. It might be pedantry, but the original comment should have said 1990, not 2000.

This is true with a lot of companies. If you made people actually use their own product (do they?!) maybe they'd think twice before doing boneheaded things Then again, I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem

yoyohello13 9mo ago
I remember I was at a Python conference some years ago and every Microsoft dev I saw had a MacBook. So no, I don’t think they use their own product internally.
- dmix 9mo ago
  The only thing worse than work-from-office is mandatory work-on-windows.
  - jiggawatts 9mo ago
    If only there was something Microsoft’s developers could do about that…
- ethagnawl 9mo ago
  As an aside, I used to know a number of MS heads who ran Windows on Mac Intel machines because they preferred the hardware (~2014 MBP) and/or because they ostensibly worked at Mac shops and were handed one upon entry.
  - badc0ffee 9mo ago
    If I still had to use Windows I'd want a laptop with home/end/ins/del/pgup/pgdn keys, and alt/win in the right place.
    - eviks 9mo ago
      The last issue is solvd in software, the first one has a good workaround in software
  - matwood 9mo ago
    Long ago at this point when my job required windows, the best experience for me was running it in a VM on a MBP. Actually worked quite well since it was easy stop/start windows and segmented work off on its own.
- stuaxo 9mo ago
  Using Windows as a python dev is a complete pain.
gerdesj 9mo ago
"I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem" They don't make money (put bread on the table) by selling Windows any more. That is soooo 2000s. Income is from data mining and from subscriptions to cloudy offerings that are mostly MVP (Minimum Viable Product). Oh, and hyping their perceived value to the point that the term "meme stock" is no longer just a joke.
userbinator 9mo ago
If you made people actually use their own product (do they?!) Yes, they do. Unfortunately even MS employees are powerless to do anything about the crap that gets shoved into Windows by other employees working at the company, and the ones who complain about it are quietly shown the door or have already left of their own will, leaving only those who are completely apathetic or... Then again, I get the biological desire to put food on the table for one's family and therein lies the problem Exactly. That and the desire to remain in the country --- part of the reason why companies like H-1Bs so much is because they are going to be far more docile and less willing to resist doing things they feel are wrong.

dismalaf 9mo ago

With the way the economy is going (some call it K-shaped) it's more profitable to squeeze as hard as you can and extract as much as possible out of whales versus trying to have mass market appeal. Azure, Office and Copilot will sustain them. Nvidia is doing something similar where they're just extracting as much as possible out of AI companies and not caring one bit about consumers.

gruez 9mo ago
>With the way the economy is going (some call it K-shaped) it's more profitable to squeeze as hard as you can and extract as much as possible out of whales versus trying to have mass market appeal How does whatever microsoft is doing to windows line up with that?
- ffsm8 9mo ago
  Hmm, it does line up with that from my perspective too. It's just a different way to say "you're the product, not the customer" if you look at the statement from a neutral perspective - the whale being the actual customer, who changes all the time depending on what Microsoft MBAs think might have the highest potential value they can extract.
  - gruez 9mo ago
    >the whale being the actual customer, who changes all the time depending on what Microsoft MBAs think might have the highest potential value they can extract. Who's the "whale" in this context? Windows users who subscribe to copilot? Enterprise? Advertisers?
    - dismalaf 9mo ago
      Enterprise.
- dismalaf 9mo ago
  Enterprises are the whales. Microsoft sells user management, Office, Copilot, Outlook, etc... all bundled together for more per seat per year than a consumer will spend or generate in the whole lifecycle of their device. Nevermind Azure. So consumers are mostly ignored, except as a testbed to shove AI and ads.

neilv 9mo ago

Never ascribe to stupidity, that which has been proven to be malice.

grugagag 9mo ago
Yeah, they delivered whatever they delivered on purpose. Sometimes I imagine MS is playingn Lemmings with their users to reach their corporate goals.
Ferret7446 9mo ago
I doubt the various shitty parts of Windows (not the forced AI/whatever) is due to malice, unless you mean employees maliciously trying to destroy the company.
- stuartd 9mo ago
  Hanlon’s razor applies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
- yndoendo 9mo ago
  I would say the malice is from management, investors, and product leads. Developers just do what they are told. Microsoft is choosing enshitification versus quality. CEO needs to pump that stock and having enterprise locked into without alternatives helps them. I grew up with Microsoft and now you have to pay me to use their products. I would never choose their OS for product hosting. Even their embedded / IoT is trying to force a Microsoft account and push against local user.
  - aunty_helen 9mo ago
    Or are they trying to move users onto other platforms, more modern platforms that users are more comfortable paying for. Desktops existed before punching in your credit card numbers was a common thing, that history is hard to shrug. Xbox for gamers, mobile for everyone else and business editions of windows for the enterprise.
  - 9mo ago

cedws 9mo ago

I get the impression that a lot of the old guard are long gone from the Windows team or have no influence. Raymond Chen is still around but not sure how much he actually works on Windows day to day.

ecshafer 9mo ago
Microsoft was founded in 1975. 1981 was the first DOS release. 1985 was the first release of Windows. 40 years working on windows is a long time, I would be surprised if anyone for the original team is left at this point. Even someone joining out of college in 2000 is now 25 years in, is 57, and could feasibly be retiring....
- xmddmx 9mo ago
  You mean 1990. Someone graduating college in 1990 would have been about 21. That was 35 years ago, so they would be about 56 in 2025. Math is hard.
  - GenerocUsername 9mo ago
    Cmon man, it's a comment not a research paper. Off by one isn't worth a follow up snark
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - sokoloff 9mo ago
      Their main point was it is off by 10; then they introduced an additional confusing question of “is it off by 10, 11, or 12?”
    - cwnyth 9mo ago
      Off by 10+1. Someone who graduated college in 2000 = 25 + 22 (4 years of college from 18) = 47, not 57, and not anywhere close to the retirement age. It might be pedantry, but the original comment should have said 1990, not 2000.