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My rule for modern TVs: 1. Never connect the TV panel itself to the internet. Keep it air-gapped. Treat it solely as a dumb monitor. 2. Use an Apple TV for the

• pengaru 10mo ago
  If these things include WiFi hw it's not so simple. You'd likely be surprised what proprietary WiFi-enabled consumer products do without your knowledge. Especially in a dense residential environment, there's nothing preventing a neighbor's WiFi AP giving internet access to everything it deems eligible within range. It may be a purely behind the scenes facility, on an otherwise ostensibly secured AP.
  • mh- 10mo ago
    I see this claim posted a lot, and not a single person has ever provided evidence of it happening with any TV brand I've ever heard of.
    • pengaru 10mo ago
      I don't have firsthand knowledge of TVs doing this, but other consumer devices with WiFi most definitely do this. If you don't control the software driving the TV, and the TV has WiFi hardware, I would assume it's at the very least in the cards. It's rationalized by the vendors as a service to the customer. The mobile app needs to be able to configure the device via the cloud, so increasing the ability for said device to reach cloud by whatever means necessary is a customer benefit.
      • mh- 10mo ago
        I've never seen evidence of a mainstream consumer device doing this either. Got some examples I can look at?
        • pengaru 10mo ago
          If you're in SF we should have that conversation over a beer.
        • kstrauser 10mo ago
          Is Amazon Sidewalk still a thing?
          • ssl-3 10mo ago
            It most certainly is. It's not wifi, but it's definitely a thing. It lives down in the 900MHz world where things tend to be slower, but also travel further. And of course: If it exists, it can be used. That said, I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that televisions and streaming boxes are using it.
            • kstrauser 10mo ago
              I’d kinda forgotten about it until someone mentioned open WiFi, and this seems like a use case tailor made for it. If not already, it looks like a near certainty to me.
              • ssl-3 10mo ago
                I also think it is inevitable. But remember, too: Whispernet. Available as a one-time extra-cost feature on the first Kindle back in '07, Whispernet provided a bit of slow Internet access over cellular networks -- without additional payments or contracts or computers. And really, Whispernet was great in that role. But the world of data is shaped a lot differently these days. Data is a lot more-available and much less-expensive than it was back then, ~18 years ago -- and codecs have improved by leaps-and-bounds in terms of data efficiency. Radios are also less expensive and more-capable compared to what they were in '07. This will be sold as a feature: "Now with Amazon Whispernet, your new Amazon Fire TV will let you stream as much ad-supported TV as you want! For free! No home Internet connection or bulky antenna required! Say no to monthly bills and wanky-janky setups, and say yes to Amazon Fire TV!" The future will be advertising. (Always has been, but always will be, too.)
  • lillecarl 10mo ago
    You're suggesting that my TV would connect to a random open WiFi, it sounds far fetched
    • pengaru 10mo ago
      As a thought exercise ask yourself would you notice if any of your closed WiFi-enabled hw scanned for APs and occasionally phoned home, if it didn't go out of its way to inform you of this? What would prevent the vendor from doing so?
    • cma 10mo ago
      At some point it will potentially connect to people walking by on the street (Amazon Sidewalk). For now they haven't hooked Fire TVs into it.
      • ssl-3 10mo ago
        Amazon Sidewalk is more about things connecting to the neighbor's always-plugged-in Echo Dot speaker than it is about them connecting to people walking down literal sidewalks.
• amelius 10mo ago
  Once many people start doing this, there will be dark patterns to force you to connect to the internet.
  • nickthegreek 10mo ago
    how so? describe an example please.
    • tempay 10mo ago
      Prompt for a login or to check for updates on every start or once a week. It wouldn’t be difficult to get the numbers up for the number of online devices.
    • fzzzy 10mo ago
      ship a cell phone in every TV
      • tomjakubowski 10mo ago
        What would be the monthly cost per unit to LG for servicing those cell modems? Data-only, and I presume they could get some kind of bulk discount as a big manufacturer.
        • datadrivenangel 10mo ago
          probably a couple of dollars a month, which would be very tough to actually make work. Even facebook only makes a few hundred dollars a year per person in the US.
          • eli 10mo ago
            Nah, you can get a plan for a couple dollars a year as a one-off https://www.digikey.com/en/resources/iot-resource-center/iot-cellular-data-plans https://www.digikey.com/en/resources/iot-resource-center/iot...
          • 10mo ago
• kstrauser 10mo ago
  That's exactly my own thought process. I don't pretend that Apple is saintly, but their profit model is currently to make money through premium prices on premium products. They have a lot to lose, like several trillion dollars, in betraying that trust.
  • DetectDefect 10mo ago
    > I don't pretend that Apple is saintly, but their profit model is currently to make money through premium prices on premium products Is this statement based on anything other than Apple marketing materials, perhaps a meaningful qualification from an independent third party? I worry this falsehood is being repeated so much it has become "truth".
    • daveguy 10mo ago
      Repeating "this falsehood" doesn't make it a falsehood either.
      • DetectDefect 10mo ago
        Nothing is false about asking to prove a unicorn exists.
        • deleted 10mo ago
          [deleted]
    • kstrauser 10mo ago
      Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it certainly rhymes. Is there proof that Apple is monetizing our data with third parties? It's very clear how almost every other major company is, but Apple's been reasonably respectful about it.
      • saagarjha 10mo ago
        They’re certainly monetizing your data with first parties
• skirmish 10mo ago
  Another safe option I use: Vero V [1], it runs Debian + Kodi, so it is all open source. Great support by Sam, the founder, too. [1] https://osmc.tv/vero/ https://osmc.tv/vero/
  • drnick1 10mo ago
    I like the idea, but these KODI-based devices far too limited, they essentially only serve as media players for local content. For example, streaming Youtube is difficult and a poor experience relative using VacuumTube on desktop Linux. It's even harder to get a browser to work to stream from websites like Pluto and Flixer, especially if you want an adblocker. I haven't found a better option than an upscaled Linux DE on a mini-PC so far (however, see KDE Plasma Bigscreen). Also, you can buy a more capable used ThinkCenter micro for less money, so the value proposition isn't exactly great.
    • RunningDroid 10mo ago
      > I like the idea, but these KODI-based devices far too limited, they essentially only serve as media players for local content. This seems to be a side effect of KODI's extreme aversion to being associated with piracy.
      • drnick1 10mo ago
        I wouldn't expect KODI/OSMC to provide an unofficial YT client. However, the "app" availability issue is a big one for devices like this if they are to compete with spyware-ridden Android TV boxes on one hand and Linux HTPCs on the other hand. The Android TV boxes are cheap and support all streaming platforms. The Linux HTPCs are free (as in freedom), typically far more powerful (can double as consoles/emulators) and don't restrict the user in any way.
• flutas 10mo ago
  My only * to this would be Google Chromecast devices directly if you already have them. They have an option (buried way under settings) to make the home-screen apps only. > Turn on Apps only mode > From the Google TV home screen, select Settings Settings and then Accounts & Sign In. > Select your profile and then Apps only mode and then Turn on. It also makes the device significantly more performant.
  • xnx 10mo ago
    Great tip! I'd been using a custom launcher, but with this, I might not have to.
    • HenryMulligan 10mo ago
      Apps Only mode still has plenty of ads on the home screen though.
• userbinator 10mo ago
  What happened to having an HTPC?
  • richid 10mo ago
    For me: I want something that will always work with minimal effort and is easy to use for the family. I've farted around with every HTPC software from MythTV on and I'm over it. I'll happily pay the premium for an AppleTV that will handle almost everything in hardware.
    • iancmceachern 10mo ago
      Jellyfin is pretty good
      • richid 10mo ago
        Jellyfin + AppleTV w/ Infuse is a dream.
    • reactordev 10mo ago
      I solved this with a wireless keyboard and a Kensington trackball mouse running pure Fedora with scaling set to 200% in KDE Plasma. Who needs a frontend? Just open brave.
      • rasmus-kirk 10mo ago
        I would honestly just use an Apple TV. But the killer feature for me (I currently use a Steam Deck/Steam Controller) is just Youtube without ads reliably. Also total control, if Youtube jacked up the prices for Youtube Red, I always have Ublock.
        • reactordev 10mo ago
          Total control is the name of the game for me. I can load Steam. I can load Brave. I can load VLC. I can watch any streaming, play any game (proton supported), or listen to any music.
• sfRattan 10mo ago
  With a bit of fiddling, Android TV can be as good as Apple TV in terms of privacy. Not out of the box, of course, but ADB can remove advertising/surveillance related APK files from most devices sold in big box stores and there are open-source, alternative clients to YouTube and a few other platforms available due to the popularity on the underlying AOSP platform. The same is possible to varying extents on smart TVs that use Android TV as their OS. You can even completely replace Google's sponsored-content-feed launcher/homescreen with an open source alternative that is just a grid of big tiles for your installed apps (FLauncher). For me, SmartTube with both ad-blocking and sponsor block is the killer feature of Android TV as a platform. If you're into local network media streaming, Jellyfin's Android TV app is also great. Their Apple TV app is limited enough that people recommend using a paid third party client instead. And that's usually inevitably the case with Apple's walled gardens... The annual developer fee means things that people would build for the community on AOSP/Android are locked behind purchases or subscriptions on iOS and Apple TV.
  • queenkjuul 10mo ago
    It never occurred to me that that's why all the macOS utilities cost money. (I mean not literally all but way more basic stuff than you'd ever think to pay for on Windows or Android). I did figure Apple encouraged it because of their massive cut off the revenue but i forgot they charge devs to publish in the first place.
    • sfRattan 10mo ago
      MacOS isn't as locked down as iOS or Apple TV (yet) unless you publish via the Mac App Store, but a secondary factor is that Apple customers expect to pay to solve a problem without having to think about it. The good is that the above norm encourages the creation of high quality software. The bad is that, by the same token, some ideas that would be free/libre community projects on other platforms are instead paid utilities in Apple's walled garden, especially on iOS and Apple TV.
    • coldtea 10mo ago
      >It never occurred to me that that's why all the macOS utilities cost money All macOS utilities absolutely don't cost money. There are countless free macOS utilities in the Mac App Store, as well as open source utilities for macOS specifically too.
• kibwen 10mo ago
  > Apple is the only mainstream option where the hardware cost covers the experience, rather than your viewing habits subsidizing the device. Years ago our refrain was "if you're not paying for the service, you're the product". Nowadays we all recognize how naive that was; why would these psychopathic megacorporations overlook the possibility of both charging us and selling our privacy to the highest bidder? In other words, Apple doesn't have a pass here. They're profiting from your data too, in addition to charging you the usual Apple tax. Why wouldn't they? Apple's a psychopathic megacorporation just like all the rest of them, whose only goal is to generate profit at any cost.
• helterskelter 10mo ago
  I believe HDMI has support for sharing internet since 1.4 and I wouldn't be surprised to see TV makers attempting to leverage this in the future to get around not connecting your TV directly to internet.
  • mrpippy 10mo ago
    HDMI Ethernet Channel fizzled out and no devices ever supported it.
    • lithiumii 10mo ago
      No. I had a Samsung TV which connects to the internet via the HDMI cable to my Nvidia Shield.
• blibble 10mo ago
  they'll probably start using that bezos spy doorbell mesh network soon then the only thing to do will be to rip out the antenna
• CivBase 10mo ago
  > Use an Apple TV for the "smart" features. Use a PC for "smart" features. Used PC hardware is cheap and plenty effective. And the Logitech K400 is better than any TV remote. No spying (unless you run Windows). Easy ad blocking. No reliance on platform-specific app support. Native support for multiple simultaneous content feeds (windows) - even from different services. And it's not like it's complicated. My parents are as tech-illiterate as they come and they've been happily using an HTPC setup for over well over a decade. Anyone who can operate a "Smart TV" can certainly use a web browser.
  • ulrikrasmussen 10mo ago
    I have the same setup and have never looked back. My kids can control the TV now via the browser instead of asking me to fiddle with a smartphone, and I can easily block e.g. YouTube via the hosts file. The ability to have multiple streaming services open in different tabs and reading online reviews all on the same screen is also vastly superior to any UX offered by e.g. Chromecast or similar devices.
  • LUmBULtERA 10mo ago
    Of course that's a viable option, but likely uses far more electricity in a year and unless you're going the high seas, unlikely to always get a better 4k HDR resolution from streaming services.
    • coldtea 10mo ago
      >but likely uses far more electricity in a year Unlikely, Apple TV is itself a "PC", not much different. An actual PC doesn't cost much for electricity in a year either (say $30/year headless for watching several hours a day and sleep mode the rest). Make it an ARM and it will be quite less.
• nunez 10mo ago
  100%. Confirmed by my Firewalla. These and HomePods only access apple.com and icloud.com domains unless you're using apps. No mysterious hard coded IP addresses. Apple TV also has the best hardware, by far.
• zackb 10mo ago
  100% agree and do the same. There's no way I'd let one of those things touch the network. That is insane for a techie and even scarier that normal people live that way.
• joelthelion 10mo ago
  How well does apple TV work if you're not part of the apple ecosystem?
  • 1shooner 10mo ago
    I'm not any more in the ecosystem than an Apple ID and airpods, and it is just fine. The directional spatial audio with the airpods is cool, but we also use other BT headphones with it. I use the ATV almost exclusively for Jellyfin/Infuse.
  • rsync 10mo ago
    It works well. I have a throwaway pseudonym dedicated to my appleTV and we use the login so infrequently that we always have to look it up. The only time we ever interface with apple is to install a new app on the AppleTV and that is very rare. The appletv is not connected to any other apple products or services.
    • joelthelion 10mo ago
      Thank you!
• nichos 10mo ago
  What's wrong with Roku?
• snapplebobapple 10mo ago
  This except throw out the spyware that is an apple tv and get an intel n150 based mini pc (aoostar makes a nice one), throw bazzite on it, tell kde to auto login and auto load jellyfin and attach a flirc ir receiver and get a flirc remote for it. If you want to get fancy set a systemd timer to reboot it in the middle of the night.
• vkdelta 10mo ago
  Apple likely captures similar info but it is just they don’t sell the data but use exclusively for themselves.
• ulrikrasmussen 10mo ago
  I agree with you except for the Apple TV part. I use a mini-PC running Ubuntu and use a wireless keyboard with integrated touchpad to control it, and it works wonderfully and has a much better user experience than the Chromecast I was using before - a product which has progressively become more and more shitty over the years to the point of being unusable. An Apple TV is probably also OK, but likely also much more expensive. Also, Apple is a company that is and always has done all they could to lock down their platforms, lock in their users and seek exorbitant fees from developers releasing to their platform.
  • Moldoteck 10mo ago
    can't wait for valve to release the new controller with touchpads. Should be more compact than a keyboard and paired with some voice recognition would make the need for keyboard almost obsolete for smarttv usecase
  • nelblu 10mo ago
    > and use a wireless keyboard with integrated touchpad to control it. Which wireless keyboard do you use? I've pretty much exact same setup - TV + Linux Mint + Logitech K400+. I'm just looking to see if there are better options for K400+
    • joombaga 10mo ago
      I use one of these https://www.tindie.com/products/zitaotech/bb-q10-bleusb-keyboardv2_black/ https://www.tindie.com/products/zitaotech/bb-q10-bleusb-keyb... The keymap takes some getting used to.
    • ulrikrasmussen 10mo ago
      I am using a cheap Deltaco, but the range is a bit too low, so I am thinking of switching to a K400+
  • QuiEgo 10mo ago
    I used to use a NUC with a K400 as well (and a Logitech Harmony (RIP)), and the Apple TV is a way better experience. The Apple TV remote is way more useable, and HDMI CEC just works™, which never ever was true with the NUC. I really like the client-server model - the Apple TV is my dumb front end for Plex, Steam Link, and so on. It also is well supported by every streaming service. All of the Apple TV apps are designed with a UI for a TV and remote, not a user sitting two feet from a computer with a keyboard and mouse, and are way easier to use sitting on a sofa then a keyboard + browser combo. I could fiddle with the NUC and make it work, but it was not family friendly. In general, the "it just works" factor is extremely high, which I could not say for the NUC. If Apple ever goes evil, I'll just switch to whatever the best solution is when that happens (maybe a rooted Android TV device?). It's not like I'm marrying it. An Apple TV is $150. I've gotten 4 years out of my current one. The cost is negligible. As I've gotten older, I've really come to value the "it just works" factor. I don't have time or energy for fiddly stuff anymore. After I put in the time to set something up, I want it to be rock solid. To each their own though.
• Moldoteck 10mo ago
  does it matter if you use chromecast if you already have YouTube + google account on your phone and cast it to chromecast?
• scotty79 10mo ago
  > Apple is the only mainstream option where the hardware cost covers the experience, rather than your viewing habits subsidizing the device. This might be temporarily a good rule of thumb to follow, but you will get monetized eventually. Nobody likes leaving money on the table. Same reason why subscription services now serve ads as well.
• bgbntty2 10mo ago
  Why would people even buy something like a smart TV if they know it's highly likely that it's created to spy on them? It's not a necessity, so maybe just don't get a smart TV in the first place? Otherwise, how sure you are it won't search for an open Wi-Fi or that it doesn't have a cellular connection?
  • NuclearPM 10mo ago
    Why would someone buy a car with a stereo? Why would someone buy something like jeans with a zipper?
    • bgbntty2 10mo ago
      Because the stereo doesn't spy on us (hopefully). If it did, I wouldn't buy one, as it's not a necessity, either. The zipper also doesn't spy on us... yet? When smart zippers become the norm and you can't find jeans with dumb zippers, I'll return to using buttons even if they're a bit annoying to deal with.
      • jimmydorry 10mo ago
        Good luck finding a modern car that doesn't have a stereo. And continuing the analogy, good luck finding jeans without a zipper. When the only affordable and available options spy on you, it's simple enough to keep them air gapped from the internet... Electing not to own these devices at all is a much tougher sell.
    • whitehexagon 10mo ago
      Right, but the cars here now have to have some kind of GPS tracker thing built in. And the Jeans are 1% elastacine? so that they fall to bits in the Sun after 6 months. I remember a pair of real denim jeans I picked up in the states that lasted me 10 years. Quality has gone out of everything in the last 15+ years. So these items, along with anything marked Smart == Ad platform, or AI == Future Ad platform, are on my 'will not buy on principle' list regardless of need or wants.
  • hnuser123456 10mo ago
• mickdarling 10mo ago
  I used to work in the industry. I know the guys responsible for real-time data capture from various platforms like Roku and Visio. I 100% agree, and I own very nice LG TVs. They are not connected to the internet. They each have an Apple TV and that is their only way that they get video, and can't send data out.
• Machado117 10mo ago
  If you get an Apple Tv also get the Infuse app. It is able to play anything that is in your home network - smb, plex, jellyfin. I also recommend running iSponsorBlockTV if you use the YouTube app, it auto mutes and auto skips ads
  • wintermutestwin 10mo ago
    I looked at the git page for sponsor block TV, but it’s super confusing. It’s talking about installing python and docker. You can’t do that stuff on an Apple TV right??
    • oktoberpaard 10mo ago
      It runs on another device and connects to the YouTube app(s) as a client.