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US destroying its reputation as a scientific leader – European science diplomat
- a456463 10mo ago[flagged]
- mlinhares 10mo agoCountries shouldn't have outsourced all research and development to the US, hope they all notice this wasn't a good plan and that they all need to get back to it right now.
- Swenrekcah 10mo agoIt wasn’t exactly those countries choice, but since the US seems hell bent on sabotaging itself one can only hope the rest of the western world picks up this slack.
- afavour 10mo agoIt’s difficult to compete economically. If the US has welcoming immigration policies for scientists and will pay 10x what your country can afford then you’re going to end up with a brain drain. Recent changes in the US have changed that calculus but you can’t create an entire industry in the blink of an eye (and, of course, those changes can be reversed at any point)
- lisbbb 10mo agoWhat the US needs first and foremost is a better future for its own citizens. We have abandoned our youth to unemployment and underemployment.
- silisili 10mo agoAgreed with this sentiment. The average American doesn't care about any of this. Why would they? You have someone working 40+ hours a week to just barely be able to afford a dumpy apartment, with no real prospects or signs of escape - tell them that the US may no longer be paying top dollar to import the smartest people around the globe and see what they care. In order for all of this to work cleanly, you need the everyman taken care of and actually willing to participate and have hope for the future. Until then you'll just get a slew of likely underhanded populists, because they at least pretended to care.
- gcanyon 10mo ago> see what they care That's why you need smart people who care planning things. Miss out on either of those and you're going to fail. And right how we have people "planning" things who are neither smart nor caring.
- cgio 10mo agoIt is a rationale, but ironically a very socialist one, which I believe would be anathema to the people actually making the decisions and the people who voted for them too.
- afavour 10mo ago> The average American doesn't care about any of this. Why would they? Because scientific industries form a part of the US economy and hire a great many average Americans! And when you employ a good number of people there are a bunch of connected industries you spend money with, who in turn employ a lot of average Americans.
- estearum 10mo agoYouth unemployment is right around its historical average.
- afavour 10mo agoI think you need to show the working a little on a statement like that. Some immediate questions that come to mind: - how many US citizens do these labs hire for every immigrant scientist they employ? There are support roles at all levels, all the way down to custodian. What jobs are lost when these grants are denied? A lot of this work will (hopefully!) continue, just in other counties. Now those countries get to employ their citizens instead. - are the youth unemployed compared to previous levels? Are these unemployed youths able to do the jobs the immigrants do? The US doesn’t take in skilled immigrants as a favor to the rest of the world or something. Other countries educate their citizens to a high level then the US poaches them and has them contribute to growing the US economy. It’s the story of countless Silicon Valley startups so it’s especially surprising to see this sentiment on HN!
- estearum 10mo agoCountries didn't "outsource" it, the US competed for and dominated this extremely high value-added portion of the global economy. It's a complete own-goal for us to give up what we fought so hard for.
- tensor 10mo agoCountries don’t outsource any research to the US. US funding lured many scientists to the US but this has never been seen as a positive thing outside the US. In Canada we call it brain drain. Now we’re capitalizing and the US science failing to strengthen our science sector. Long term science is not at risk. Science doesn’t need the US. This is, however, a big problem for the US.
- exceptione 10mo agoDon't worry, countries didn't do that. Academia is quite strong outside of the US. Still a loss of course! When we talk about innovation, hn has a narrow focus on the well-known monopolies. That is understandable, because they are well-known brands, not some obscure innovative Swiss company in a critical supply chain. Reality is more complex than we discuss about, fortunately enough. But the focus on the winner-takes-all is also a bit unhealthy, because monopolies are the anti-thesis of a free market. A free market needs rules to keep it free and fair. I know, that conflicts with the sponsored narratives--how else can you get people to justify gatekeeper siphoning everyone of in their walled garden?
- deepfriedbits 10mo agoWhat an embarrassing era for America.
- JumpCrisscross 10mo ago"In a parting shot before her retirement, the European Commission’s top science diplomat has castigated the US for destroying its reputation as a global scientific leader. ... Speaking at the European Science Diplomacy Conference in Copenhagen, she did not elaborate on exactly how the US was wrecking its reputation. ... The next programme, which starts in 2028, will also be more focused on European defence technology and industrial strength, raising questions over how welcome non-European partners will be, particularly in sensitive projects." I am inclined to agree with her conclusion. But this is a political statement by a European diplomat selling her programme and asking for funds. We can find better sources for documenting what’s happening. There is even nascent progress in measuring the harm.
- jvanderbot 10mo agoFrom the EU perspective, I can see why it pays to say the US is an unreliable or unnecessary partner. It may or may not be true, but cui bono: EU gets to reindustrialize and invest domestically. Seems like a great idea for EU and US both.
- Angostura 10mo agoWhat makes you think the U.S continues to be a reliable partner for anyone anywhere?
- wozer 10mo agoThe US doesn't have any partners anymore, except for some small countries like Hungary and Israel.
- jvanderbot 10mo agoI think you'd be surprised how much intel sharing and cooperation happens behind the political curtains.
- disgruntledphd2 10mo ago
- drawnwren 10mo ago"says chief EU research diplomat" -- leaving off half the sentence sure does change the quote.
- mikeocool 10mo agoDoes it?
- Angostura 10mo agoI’m not sure it does. Particularly since the diplomat is outgoing
- drawnwren 10mo agoIf you don't think a foreign diplomat's comments about a counterparty nation are potentially biased, we don't have enough common ground to warrant further discussion.
- tensor 10mo ago[flagged]
- NedF 10mo ago[dead]
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- Swenrekcah 10mo agoNothing would please our enemies more than people not being able to talk to each other. This decline of trust is not accidental.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- joe_mamba 10mo ago
- adamhartenz 10mo agoFor a country thats whole personallity is "winning" and that lates losers, The USA is very good a setting itself up to lose every race.
- robswc 10mo agoWhat is US losing, relative to Europe/other countries? I can't really think of many notable things to come out of Europe as of late... besides maybe covid vaccines but its hard to really say that when 90% of the wikipedia page for the "creators" is about research and contributions that they did (and could really only do) in the US.
- cgio 10mo agoYou allude to it yourself in your example. People, from all over the world, were doing research in the US, because that’s the only place they could really do it. Now that this option is disappearing, the system will have to adjust and find another place. When that happens, US loses. Until it does, we all do.
- robswc 10mo agoPeople have been claiming "this is the end" of the US, for some reason or another, ever since I've been on the internet (since 2005). This same sentiment was going around in 2016 when Trump was doing those ridiculous "bans" on immigration. Since then I would argue the US has only increased its influence and power over Europe. Europe needs help with the war and the US has already given immeasurable resources. Europe has almost no skin in the game when it comes to AI. Maybe that's a bubble but the point still stands. Ofc I don't agree with what the current president is doing, but the idea that businesses and research will flock to Europe is amusing. They've certainly introduced enough barriers to ensure that won't happen.
- cgio 10mo agoJust to make it clear, I never said the next place will be Europe. Could be anywhere. Systems evolve creatively, I would not dare a prediction.
- websiteapi 10mo agoIt’ll be interesting to see how this shakes out in the next 3 years or so.
- lawlessone 10mo ago"we're gonna beat China by investing nothing"
- ChrisArchitect 10mo agoRelated: The U.S. Is Funding Fewer Grants in Every Area of Science and Medicine https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46355077 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46355077
- meowface 10mo agoAll I can say is let us all hope this is merely the American decade of humiliation and not the beginning of the American century of humiliation.
- JKCalhoun 10mo agoIt might be what it takes though, 2nd place (if that), to get the U.S. to stop fucking around.
- timcobb 10mo agoUsually the opposite of what happens to a power in decline
- meowface 10mo agoQuite something to imagine 60 years from now history books (or thought-o-grams) may be written on Gamergate and a microblogging application and a reality TV host ushering in the chain of events that upended the biggest global power.
- djaouen 10mo agoAll I have to say is, don’t blame me. I am an American and didn’t vote for this bullsh*t. Leave me out when you enslave the rest of the Americans lol
- embedding-shape 10mo ago> I am an American and didn’t vote for this bullsh*t. Isn't the whole principle about democracy and freedom that you all stick together no matter what political party/parties is in power? If you're just throwing your hands up in the air because your party isn't the one in control, what kind of democracy is that? The whole point is working together with opponents for common goals. Otherwise, may I interest you in an insurrection? Pretty hot and trendy these times.
- cdrnsf 10mo ago[flagged]
- numbers_guy 10mo ago[flagged]
- lysace 10mo ago> Signe Ratso, who is in charge of negotiating global access to the EU’s €93.5 billion Horizon Europe research and innovation programme My thoughts after witnessing Horizon Europe in action when I worked at a hardware/materials research-ish company in Sweden: - So much pork, so much product concept cosplay. - All of these grandiose pointless abstract "projects". - Gotta have like 10+ institutions/companies from lots of different countries involved in each grandiose project, leading to insane overheads. Just give the institutions/companies (demand equity?) funds instead - stop with the stupid cosplay. Europe needs to be smarter than the US in how to make this more efficient. Right now that shouldn't that hard.
- zkmon 10mo agoIt sounds more like a parroting of a popular sentiment as a conclusion, rather than providing a data-based assessment. What are the numbers? What's the real impact? How much lead does USA have over it's nearest competition?
- afavour 10mo agoThe U.S. Is Funding Fewer Grants in Every Area of Science and Medicine https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/12/02/upshot/trump-science-funding-cuts.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/12/02/upshot/trump-... Far too early to know the exact long term effects but it’s definitely happening.
- heironimus 10mo agoIs there any metric saying what the proper amount is or is it always “more”? Is there a point where others should do more and the US less?
- estearum 10mo agoIt's totally valid to say we don't have the money to pay for this stuff, but to frame this as "others not doing enough" is hilariously juvenile. We do this because it's good for our economy, our people, and our global industrial dominance. Not charity, lol.
- afavour 10mo ago> With an annual budget of more than $47 billion, NIH is the largest single public funder of biomedical and behavioral research in the world. In fiscal year 2023, NIH funding generated an estimated $92.89 billion in economic activity. https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/impact-nih-research/serving-society/direct-economic-contributions https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/impact-nih-research/serving-so... The US isn’t doing the world a favor by funding this stuff. The country directly benefits from it.
- JKCalhoun 10mo agoI suspect that's a little tricky to quantify, so we're left with anecdotal observations. I would be surprised if anyone looking around objectively could say feel the U.S. was gaining any ground.
- verdverm 10mo agoIt's not just science, all sorts of conferences and other group gatherings are actively avoiding meeting in the US to avoid difficulties for international travelers.
- lisbbb 10mo ago[flagged]
- throw-the-towel 10mo agoBut how does a person know if they are a piece of shit, according to CBP, or not? Might just skip the trip altogether and have less things to worry about.
- Rebelgecko 10mo agoThe problem is that the current government's idea of being a piece of shit politically includes any sort of dissent, disagreement, or mocking of the administration (see the people who have gotten in trouble for JD Vance memes)
- verdverm 10mo agoThe reality of any extra difficulty does not matter, the perception and response are the reality we deal with
- habinero 10mo agoNot true. Border agents were always tinpot dictators, but they're awful these days. I personally know white collar professionals who were turned back at the border for having a B1 visa instead of a TN visa for temporary work, while another person in their group was let through with no problem. They've been using the same kind of visa for a decade before this. And they were white dudes from Canada. My Mexican friends said they're not stepping foot in the US for the foreseeable future, and I don't blame them. They have families and can't risk being disappeared and potentially killed because of some idiot border agent.
- gcanyon 10mo ago
- metabagel 10mo ago[flagged]
- gcanyon 10mo agoHaving a president who lacks object permanence makes long-term planning difficult.
- zeroCalories 10mo agoI always feel weird reading statements from the EU regarding this relationship. There's always talk of the U.S abandoning it's position, guilt tripping, etc. but very little about what the EU plans to do in retaliation. Cut off the U.S from the research? Retaliatory tariffs? Why is the U.S leaving NATO a concern for the EU, but not a concern for the U.S? The fact that these are not the top talking points makes me think the U.S isn't entirely wrong in their approach.
- robswc 10mo agoPersonally, as someone that has heard non-stop about how horrible the US is from Europeans ever since I was on the internet, I don't give statements from EU officials much weight. It isn't anything new. I have family that has migrated _from_ Europe to the US, they still seem to hold this attitude that they know what is best for the US. They come live here for a higher quality of life and income, then go vacation in Europe like kings, talking about how much cheaper things are, without an ounce of irony. Not sure how they do it.
- mdhb 10mo agoYou have to be a special kind of ignorant to try and say it’s a higher quality of life with a straight face. On essentially zero of any of the metrics which are specifically designed to measure exactly this does the US come out on top. Thats just a jingoistic nonsense you heard somewhere and decided to repeat it like it was a fact.
- numbers_guy 10mo agoIt's the classic breakup story, one party is just done and want to cut contact, but the other party is still hopeful and wants to find a way to restore the relationship. The EU is not independent minded in the same way that China and Russia are. That's the problem with them. Their leaders don't want to act independently from the US, because the European wealthy and politically connected classes consider themselves transatlantic, and they want to keep enjoying close ties to the US, even as the US pulls away.
- exceptione 10mo ago
- lisbbb 10mo agoI'm tired of all the breathless handwringing. I'm sure that science in the US will be just fine without all the extravagant waste.
- stefanfisk 10mo agoLike these? https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/11/over-74000-people-were-kicked-out-of-clinical-trials-because-of-trump-cuts/ https://arstechnica.com/health/2025/11/over-74000-people-wer...
- robswc 10mo agoI'm OOTL, but there _is_ a ton of waste when it comes to money we give out. The article itself even says here: > [...] the US government has cut scientific grants to academics working on diversity-related topics, halted biomedical grants to international partners, and demanded universities shut down academic units that “belittle” conservative ideas [...] I'd say it's fair to question if taxpayers should be paying for "diversity related projects." The "belittle conservative ideas" thing is problematic, as that is totally subjective. However, I don't think anyone can say in good faith that most universities aren't incredibly bias. Having been in one circa 2020, it was not a welcoming place if you weren't firmly liberal/progressive. Of course I have to place my disclaimer that I'm not a fan of what Trump is doing, or the man himself for that matter.
- SteveGerencser 10mo agoIt wasn't very welcoming in the 90s either.
- bendmorris 10mo agoIn the previous Trump term "diversity related topics" included things like biodiversity which is an important area of research and should be apolitical. Not because of a shift in focus, but because of top-down orders to not fund anything related to "diversity." Conservatives in the past have also tried to belittle research grants to justify eliminating them, such as "studying X about fruit flies." It might sound silly to a lay person but drosophila is an incredibly important model organism from which many discoveries have come. The problem is a highly political, often careless or incompetent, and sometimes blatantly corrupt administration taking a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel to so-called "waste." [1] https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2019/trump-budget-03-11-2019.php https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2019...
- robswc 10mo ago> "diversity related topics" included things like biodiversity which is an important area of research and should be apolitical. Not because of a shift in focus, but because of top-down orders to not fund anything related to "diversity." Do you have a source for this? How can you prove it was simply because it was "diversity related" and not because it someone, somewhere determined the budget needed to be cut because the spending was wasteful? As far as I can tell, the budget never passed, so we have no way to know one way or another the effects. I have never seen a government entity claim that cutting their budget wouldn't be catastrophic.
- thisisit 10mo agoIt is pretty much clear that the current WH has decided science has a bias against them and wants to curb it. There is no reason apart from that. People still bring in bad faith arguments about private companies funding research or replication crisis. Sure these are big issues in current scientific research. There is no denying that. While there might be an intuitive sense of less public research means money saved, there is no data or research (duh!) showing the impact of reduced public research. From what we have seen so far this will make things worse - because for one private research is going to biased. It happens today but public research can counter that. Later there will be no defense. Like MAHA report making up BS sources using AI to push its agenda. The irony in all of this is - the man pushing ivermectin during a pandemic - one of the biggest replication issue if not the big one - is telling others how to do research and people are defending him.
- gcanyon 10mo ago> the current WH has decided science has a bias against them As the saying goes, reality has a well-established (left|liberal) bias...
- drivingmenuts 10mo ago> As the saying goes, reality has a well-established (left|liberal) bias Maybe, but a left-wing bias at least allows right-wingers to speak, which is more than the right-wing wants for everyone else. Note: left-wing bias doesn't guarantee an audience.
- deleted 10mo ago[deleted]
- spwa4 10mo ago> .. the current WH has decided science has a bias against them and wants to curb it ... The US spent ~1 trillion dollars on science in 2024, 2025 will be maybe 10% less. The EU spent ~460 billion dollars on science in 2024 ... and 2025 will be 10 to 20% less. So the problem I have here is simple. I mostly agree with you. But European governments, despite having more money to spend, spent less on science, and are taking back grants faster than Trump. Per-capita or per-GDP-dollar they spent 3 to 4 times less than the US on science. In absolute terms, they spent less than half the US spent. EU politicians (and diplomats) are doing worse than Trump on this issue, not better. This is the part that's always forgotten. Everyone's gleefully saying that this Trump White House is going to finally, after decades, reverse the EU to US brain drain! Then you look at the facts ... and no, it's not. In fact it may accelerate under Trump. What the EU is doing to science funding is worse than what Trump is doing. I mean, I get it. Trump is worse than Biden. Or, to put it a different way: the US is so far ahead of the EU in science that the major idiotic stumble Trump is turning out to be ... just doesn't matter. But yeah, bring back Biden! If getting a science grant for X is 5 years of effort in the EU, it's about 2 years of effort in the US. Sure, it used to be 1.8 years and that sucks. But there is still a very large difference and obviously the expected outcome here, if we're being honest, is that the US ... will easily remain far ahead in science to the EU.
- ahmedfromtunis 10mo agoI recently read "Chip War" and it talked about an era (around the 80s and 90s) were american dominance on electronics (and economy) seemed in deep decline. Japan was the next big thing. But the collective efforts of some government agencies, academia and the private sector helped reverse the trend. American dominance is sure not a given but with an almost century of inertia, all hope is not lost (especially compared to the alternative).
- Boxxed 10mo ago> But the collective efforts of some government agencies, academia and the private sector helped reverse the trend. Well that's the key. The current administration is doing its best to sabotage science.
- ahmedfromtunis 10mo agoI get it. But what I'm saying is that the impact of a single misguided administration, while can be very devastating, is not enough to write off american super power status in research. With appropriate planning and funding, the next administration can definitely reverse the trend.
- layer8 10mo agoThe current administration is braking hard against the inertia.
- ahmedfromtunis 10mo agoEven the concerted effort of a competent administration wouldn't be enough to cancel a system that's a century in the making. Keyword: competent.
- lbrito 10mo agoSad state of affairs that this gets flagged. Any critical coverage of the American regime is censored.
- xphos 10mo agoYou its honestly really disappointing, the thinned skinned nature of HN is really shocking never new about it until started using the active view instead of the standard view. This specific critism isn't even really that political. They are pointing out the economic consequences of poor policy. I think its tricky to navigate though because I'd prefer not everything become politcal
- jaybrendansmith 10mo agoYes, I really don't understand why we cannot discuss the current reality like, well, hackers would. Like developers do when discussing design patterns or types of databases. Flagging content that should interest hackers ... like the perceived scientific reputation of the US ... seems overprotective and fussy to me.
- tsoukase 10mo agoThe US might remain a leader country in science and other fields for many more years. The problem is that fewer persons will participate at this (due to less research positions, company lay offs, replacing AI, tariffs and other similar reasons). And this is bad for the people more than the country.
- HardwareLust 10mo agoWhy is this flagged?