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Italian Competition Authority Fines Apple $115M for Abusing Dominant Position

154 points by amarcheschi 10mo ago

slowmovintarget 10mo ago
Apple's consent requirement isn't good enough for legal consent so third-parties have to ask twice, which "harms advertisers" trying to get at that juicy personal data.
lioeters 10mo ago
OK now slap the wrists of Alphabet and Meta.
- Lapel2742 10mo ago
  > OK now slap the wrists of Alphabet and Meta. Google is probably next (Antitrust case(s)). AFAIK the EU is currently probing a case. And before the Nationalists get mad again: If I sell in the US I'm naturally obliged to follow US rules and regulations. I wouldn't even think twice about this. The same is true in other markets. So for the Single Market: If you play on European turf, you play by European rules.
  - mk89 10mo ago
    The weirdest thing is that all fines from EU countries are about privacy and anti-competitive behavior, which literally every citizen can benefit from. The implementation might be something questionable sometimes, but this hatred is totally nonsense. It strikes me as odd that the land of opportunity has become the land of bigX that must overtake everything and everyone just accepts it. This isn't the spirit of the Americans I know, who actually challenge and see opportunity everywhere. How can you just choose to bend to Apple/Google/Meta etc? I understand they are great companies, but they do really ugly things to push competitors out, to allow scam/phishing, etc.
nicole_express 10mo ago
I'm so glad they're protecting us from Apple (checking document) making it too hard to collect personal data for advertising. Thanks, Italy
- znpy 10mo ago
  It really depends if apple is making it hard to collect data that apple itself can collect with blanket permissions from users. In that case yes, apple is abusing its dominant position and is competing unfairly with other companies. And they must be fined for that. Apple does advertising too: https://ads.apple.com https://ads.apple.com
  - nicole_express 10mo ago
    Nothing about unfair competition is mentioned in the press release, so I can only assume this wasn't a significant factor in the competition authority's decision. Unfortunately, I can't read Italian, so I'm not sure if this is brought up in the 199-page full text of the order.
    - dns_snek 10mo ago
      The press release is.. not great. The summary document linked at the bottom of the page is written in English and makes it clear that the fine was issued due to their double standards: > xii. As a matter of fact, revenues from App Store services increased, in terms of higher commissions collected from developers through the platform; likewise, Apple’s advertising division, which is not subject to the same stringent rules, ultimately benefited from increased revenues and higher volumes of intermediated ads [1] https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf
    - amarcheschi 10mo ago
      It's way too long for me, but just skimping I read that 1)apple was reported to the authority by meta, the authority then started investigating (and this is honestly extremely funny) 2)apple says that att prompt is enough to work as a gdpr consent form, meta didn't agree with this. The authority after a long investigation found apple was in wrongdoing because the att prompt breaks some rules on I don't understand what and so is not gdpr compliant - the only thing I understood is that it doesn't provide enough informations to the end user 3)authority also notes that this prompt was imposed by Apple without input from third parties, thus distorting the market because the same prompt is not required for apple's own apps
troupo 10mo ago
Of all issues they chose "poor advertisers can't get their hands on user data"
sonuhia 10mo ago
money laundering? a bribe? someone ink and track every single one of those dollars!
- mainde 10mo ago
  Don't you find it excessive to imply the above regarding a G7 country?
  - sonuhia 10mo ago
    no, in the given context and dogma, it's just 'persons' all the way down ... and up .... I'm just annoyed the HN kind is too retarded, which might be age related or not, to throw a better narrative at the rest of us. You see, it's all "laissez faire" only until it isn't ... and that's becoming a little too obvious to the wrong people ... who are not among the staff but among those who sense and communicate opportunity ... the last time something similar played out, nobody--the least the left or the greens or anyone considering themselves a fucking democrat or feynman-style anarchist--noticed the fake/posing devil in the details deliberately put on stage as a show of "pwowa" ... ... by those who only held it over multiple but rather individual instances ... the narrative which mostly left them out, .... "almost" went worse ... than history
f6v 10mo ago
I don't download any apps anymore, so not very informed on the state of alternative app stores in EU. I decided to Google where I can find those. One of the first links is leading to MacPaw's website. It's a company with questionable ethics and business practices that tries to sell you "antivirus" and "decluttering" app. So I'll pass. But are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now? Something that's used by more than just a couple of people? Or is EU just trying to milk rich USA tech giants (I think I know the answer).
- brendoelfrendo 10mo ago
  > One of the first links is leading to MacPaw's website. Yikes, Google results are bad these days! They seem to focus on Mac applications, not iOS app store alternatives. > But are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now? Yes, the main one I am familiar with is AltStore: https://altstore.io https://altstore.io However, according to Apple's docs, they only allow alternative app stores in the EU and Japan, so you have to be using an iOS account with the region set to one of those two places and be physically located there in order to install the app store. Not something that's easy to experiment with for people in the USA to see how the other half lives. > Or is EU just trying to milk rich USA tech giants (I think I know the answer). I don't really see an angle for the EU to do much milking here. Actually I think the AltStore founders are Americans? So they seem to be reaping the benefits of EU and Japanese legislation, remotely.
  - troupo 10mo ago
    > However, according to Apple's docs, they only allow alternative app stores in the EU and Japan Also: even though Apple is explicitly told not to censor these alternative stores, Apple effectively does this through notarization
- Terretta 10mo ago
  > are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now "Always has been": Setapp. Very interesting model. Readily recommend devs subscribing to this collection, but non-devs as well if you're into "there's an app for that" and fatigued with IAP. https://setapp.com/ https://setapp.com/
rdtsc 10mo ago
> privacy rules imposed by Apple for iOS devices, as of April 2021, on third-party developers of apps distributed through the App Store. In particular, third-party app developers are required to obtain specific consent for the collection and linking of data for advertising purposes through Apple’s ATT prompt Wait, so they are punishing Apple because Apple makes it harder to spy on users. What happens if Apple just exits the Italian market? They can create their own Apple competitor, I guess.
- amarcheschi 10mo ago
  As far as I can understand, the fine is for having a prompt for 3rd party apps, but not apple's own apps. Then I'm not sure because even to me, the wording used by the authority is not entirely clear, but the issue would lie in a different treatment reserved for 3rd parties compared to 1st party apps
  - dns_snek 10mo ago
    Yes, precisely, take a look at the summary document [1] at the bottom of the article. > xii. As a matter of fact, revenues from App Store services increased, in terms of higher commissions collected from developers through the platform; likewise, Apple’s advertising division, which is not subject to the same stringent rules, ultimately benefited from increased revenues and higher volumes of intermediated ads > xiii. Therefore, considering that Apple holds an absolute dominant position in the market for the supply to developers of platforms for the online distribution of apps to users of the iOS operating system, the Authority established that Apple’s conduct amounts to an exploitative abuse, in breach of Article 102 TFEU, that started in April 2021 and is still ongoing. [1] https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf
  - concinds 10mo ago
    ATT isn't about a vendor tracking you across their apps (Facebook can still log you into all their apps at once). It's about using data collected by third-parties or sending data to third party trackers, which Apple doesn't do for their own ads.
concinds 10mo ago
> The Authority found the App Tracking Transparency (“ATT”) policy to restrict competition. [...] > In particular, third-party app developers are required to obtain specific consent for the collection and linking of data for advertising purposes through Apple’s ATT prompt. However, such prompt does not meet privacy legislation requirements, forcing developers to double the consent request for the same purpose. > The Authority established that the terms of the ATT policy are imposed unilaterally and harm the interests of Apple’s commercial partners. The terms were also found to be disproportionate to the achievement of the company’s stated data protection objectives. They must think we're fucking stupid.
- petcat 10mo ago
  EU privacy regulations and the GDPR are a complete farce. You'll notice that the EU's own government websites are littered with cookie banners. They want the data just as bad as everybody else. The goal was not in any way to protect privacy, but rather to extract rent from American tech companies.
  - hnbad 10mo ago
    > They want the data just as bad as everybody else. Sure. Let's look at the main site: https://european-union.europa.eu/index_en https://european-union.europa.eu/index_en Big cookie banner. Wait. What's that. It's not a modal? And a big "Accept only essential cookies" button with the same visual weight as the "Accept all cookies" button? Surely everybody does it this way because it's literally what EU law requires - surely nobody would try to trick people into clicking "accept all" by hiding the alternative behind multiple layers of opaque options and checkboxes. So let's look at what data they are harvesting: https://european-union.europa.eu/cookies_en https://european-union.europa.eu/cookies_en Technical cookies... functional cookies... boring - most of these are just for handling logins and preferences. Ooh, analytics! But what's Europa Analytics? Let's check: https://european-union.europa.eu/europa-analytics_en https://european-union.europa.eu/europa-analytics_en Oh, they are not only opt-in, they even respect DNT headers. And they're masking the IP addresses before processing them further. Damn, they must really want that data just as bad as "everybody else".
  - 10mo ago
runako 10mo ago
This looks like it's targeted at the relationship between Apple and Italian developers. I guess this means Apple could also comply by kicking Italian developers out of the iOS developer program?
- esperent 10mo ago
  Unlikely because services in the EU have to be offered without barriers to everyone across all member states.
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
  - joe_mamba 10mo ago
    Which EU law say that exact thing? Because now I live in an EU country that had (and has) foreign products and services, typically of US origin, that are not officially available in my home EU country, like for example Xbox GamePass for console. Was same with Nextflix till a few years ago. Same with AMEX cards. So NO, you can definitely provide your services only to specific EU member states if that's what you wish, they can't force you to sell in all countries.
    - macbr 10mo ago
      You're right but there has been some progress in that matter. I.e. streaming providers can't stop you from watching Germany exclusive Netflix content when on holidays in Greece using your German Netflix subscription (only free/ad supported services are allowed to do that)
    - esperent 10mo ago
      It's called the Shop Like a Local rule, from 2018. Basically, Apple can stop selling developer accounts in Italy if they wish. They might run into issues on discrimination grounds, but it would probably be a long fight. However, they can't prevent an Italian developer from purchasing a developer account from another EU country. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/geo-blocking-addressing-discriminatory-treatment-of-customers.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/geo-block...
nradov 10mo ago
I don't necessarily disagree with this ruling, but it's sad that EU governments now take in more revenue from fining US tech companies than from taxing local tech companies. An entire continent is on the path of becoming parasites instead of builders. Will they ever adopt a growth and abundance agenda again?
- amarcheschi 10mo ago
  Maybe companies that break eu/local rules could respect the law
  - arpinum 10mo ago
    Hard to respect vague laws. Apple can't read the regulators' minds and figure out their interpretations, or instantly pivot when regulators change their minds.
    - Steve16384 10mo ago
      So, like being a citizen then?
    - dns_snek 10mo ago
      You don't need to read minds to know that abusing your dominant market position in one market to disadvantage your competitors in a different market (advertising) has a very high likelihood of breaking competition rules. That's a textbook example of anti-competitive behavior. When did they change their minds, can you provide a link to a previous regulatory decision which approved this behavior?
    - jltsiren 10mo ago
      All laws are inherently vague. Some actions are clearly legal and some are clearly illegal. Between them, there is a gray zone, where it can be impossible to say in advance what's legal and what isn't. If you are an amoral profit maximizer, like the average publicly traded company, it's often rational to take risks by entering the gray zone. Sometimes nobody cares that you do that. Sometimes you manage to get a favorable court ruling. And sometimes the expected gains outweigh the eventual fines. It's almost always easy to comply with the laws by playing it safe. But shareholders don't like that.
wendgeabos 10mo ago
The government is everywhere prone to becoming the mafia.
dinkblam 10mo ago
no year goes by without Italy imposing random >100m€ fines for 2-3 american tech companies. whenever they need money, they just hit another one without care whether actual laws were violated. the amount they take has no correlation to what has been blamed, only to how much the companies can afford to pay without threatening to leave the country. the 'Guardia di Finanza' has a long standing tradition of trying to extort money without regards to actual laws. its not long ago that they told all companies 'if you pay X% more than your tax report says you own then we won't destroy your company'. more recently they went after the Agnelli family trying to extort money without having an actual case. its not the rule of law, its simply Might makes Right or modern robber knights...
- threemux 10mo ago
  It's the EU way. The only area where they produce world-leading innovation is regulatory regimes, so gotta use it to hit up American tech companies like an ATM.
  - razakel 10mo ago
    Just an idea - how about not breaking the law?
    - threemux 10mo ago
      Oh please. "The law" is a Kafkaesque patchwork that delegates authority to local officials and has enough complexity and wiggle room to make anything possible. We're not talking about a speed limit sign here. Show me the [company], I'll show you the crime. I've been assured by people in this thread and others that, for example, if you "don't spy on users", you don't need cookie banners, and yet official EU sites have them.
      - embedding-shape 10mo ago
        > Show me the [company], I'll show you the crime. Yeah, maybe that floats the people's boat wherever you live, but in other countries where people's health and well-being go above corporate interests, it is not common for companies to break the law. > for example, if you "don't spy on users", you don't need cookie banners, and yet official EU sites have them. Which is true, and you can understand that yourself by not relying on others, but reading the regulation yourself. It's actually pretty simple, and I think even someone who don't like regulations would be able to get through it if you apply yourself. And yeah, even official EU sites could avoid it if they'd chose to not use tracking cookies. Not sure what the gotcha is supposed to be here? There is no inconsistency here.
fn348x2 10mo ago
On the Euro, Maastricht Treaty circa. ratified in 1992. Is certainly a leverage in Apple’s third-party research.
earthnail 10mo ago
Surprised by the negative comments here. Usually HN univocally complains about Apple‘s dominant App Store. Now a government fines them for it and some people are upset?
- petcat 10mo ago
  I think people would sympathize more if it was something like "Apple makes choosing a different default browser or email client unnecessarily cumbersome" -- instead of "Apple makes you double-opt-in to sharing your private data with even more advertisers"
  - dns_snek 10mo ago
    But that's not the story here. I hate ads as much as anyone, but this action is a matter of market competition, not privacy. They're completely different fights and intelligent people ought to be able to distinguish between the two. Anti-competitive behavior by Google, Apple, Meta, etc. is what got us into this mess with tracking and privacy violations in the first place.
    - lukeschlather 10mo ago
      It's the market for privacy violations. I'd go so far as to say that improving competitiveness in this market probably makes the world worse, by making privacy violations more profitable. If they had fined them for not allowing sideloading, or not allowing third-party payments, it would be a different story. Those are markets I want to see grow and thrive.
      - dns_snek 10mo ago
        They received a complaint, they investigated and issued a fine. You're asking them to selectively enforce laws based on their subjective opinion of some industry, which would be highly illegal. The entire advertising industry needs to die and I'll support every fight in pursuit of that goal, but this isn't about that. You don't dismantle an industry by picking a winner and letting them get away with crime. And yes, there needs to be an EU-wide action over all of those other issues you mentioned too but that has nothing to do with this particular case.
primer42 10mo ago
Apple makes, what, $1 billion (with a B) in profit every day. So this is nothing to them.
- groundzeros2015 10mo ago
  What about profit in Italy? Relative amounts don’t make it right or wrong.
linhns 10mo ago
I’m on the fence on this matter however they need to look at other actions of fellow big companies, for equality under the laws.
ursAxZA 10mo ago
I might be missing some procedural detail, but if there’s no formal “warning → fixed-window for correction → penalty” sequence, isn’t that just state overreach? If the issue has existed for years, retroactively jumping straight to fines feels less like regulation and more like the government exploiting its timing advantage.
ece 10mo ago
The answer to Apples self-preferencing would be to let users opt-out of Apple's on device spying, like installing another OS.

154 points by amarcheschi 10mo ago

Apple's consent requirement isn't good enough for legal consent so third-parties have to ask twice, which "harms advertisers" trying to get at that juicy personal data.

lioeters 10mo ago

OK now slap the wrists of Alphabet and Meta.

Lapel2742 10mo ago
> OK now slap the wrists of Alphabet and Meta. Google is probably next (Antitrust case(s)). AFAIK the EU is currently probing a case. And before the Nationalists get mad again: If I sell in the US I'm naturally obliged to follow US rules and regulations. I wouldn't even think twice about this. The same is true in other markets. So for the Single Market: If you play on European turf, you play by European rules.
- mk89 10mo ago
  The weirdest thing is that all fines from EU countries are about privacy and anti-competitive behavior, which literally every citizen can benefit from. The implementation might be something questionable sometimes, but this hatred is totally nonsense. It strikes me as odd that the land of opportunity has become the land of bigX that must overtake everything and everyone just accepts it. This isn't the spirit of the Americans I know, who actually challenge and see opportunity everywhere. How can you just choose to bend to Apple/Google/Meta etc? I understand they are great companies, but they do really ugly things to push competitors out, to allow scam/phishing, etc.

nicole_express 10mo ago

I'm so glad they're protecting us from Apple (checking document) making it too hard to collect personal data for advertising. Thanks, Italy

znpy 10mo ago
It really depends if apple is making it hard to collect data that apple itself can collect with blanket permissions from users. In that case yes, apple is abusing its dominant position and is competing unfairly with other companies. And they must be fined for that. Apple does advertising too: https://ads.apple.com https://ads.apple.com
- nicole_express 10mo ago
  Nothing about unfair competition is mentioned in the press release, so I can only assume this wasn't a significant factor in the competition authority's decision. Unfortunately, I can't read Italian, so I'm not sure if this is brought up in the 199-page full text of the order.
  - dns_snek 10mo ago
    The press release is.. not great. The summary document linked at the bottom of the page is written in English and makes it clear that the fine was issued due to their double standards: > xii. As a matter of fact, revenues from App Store services increased, in terms of higher commissions collected from developers through the platform; likewise, Apple’s advertising division, which is not subject to the same stringent rules, ultimately benefited from increased revenues and higher volumes of intermediated ads [1] https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf
  - amarcheschi 10mo ago
    It's way too long for me, but just skimping I read that 1)apple was reported to the authority by meta, the authority then started investigating (and this is honestly extremely funny) 2)apple says that att prompt is enough to work as a gdpr consent form, meta didn't agree with this. The authority after a long investigation found apple was in wrongdoing because the att prompt breaks some rules on I don't understand what and so is not gdpr compliant - the only thing I understood is that it doesn't provide enough informations to the end user 3)authority also notes that this prompt was imposed by Apple without input from third parties, thus distorting the market because the same prompt is not required for apple's own apps

troupo 10mo ago

Of all issues they chose "poor advertisers can't get their hands on user data"

sonuhia 10mo ago

money laundering? a bribe? someone ink and track every single one of those dollars!

mainde 10mo ago
Don't you find it excessive to imply the above regarding a G7 country?
- sonuhia 10mo ago
  no, in the given context and dogma, it's just 'persons' all the way down ... and up .... I'm just annoyed the HN kind is too retarded, which might be age related or not, to throw a better narrative at the rest of us. You see, it's all "laissez faire" only until it isn't ... and that's becoming a little too obvious to the wrong people ... who are not among the staff but among those who sense and communicate opportunity ... the last time something similar played out, nobody--the least the left or the greens or anyone considering themselves a fucking democrat or feynman-style anarchist--noticed the fake/posing devil in the details deliberately put on stage as a show of "pwowa" ... ... by those who only held it over multiple but rather individual instances ... the narrative which mostly left them out, .... "almost" went worse ... than history

f6v 10mo ago

I don't download any apps anymore, so not very informed on the state of alternative app stores in EU. I decided to Google where I can find those. One of the first links is leading to MacPaw's website. It's a company with questionable ethics and business practices that tries to sell you "antivirus" and "decluttering" app. So I'll pass. But are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now? Something that's used by more than just a couple of people? Or is EU just trying to milk rich USA tech giants (I think I know the answer).

brendoelfrendo 10mo ago
> One of the first links is leading to MacPaw's website. Yikes, Google results are bad these days! They seem to focus on Mac applications, not iOS app store alternatives. > But are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now? Yes, the main one I am familiar with is AltStore: https://altstore.io https://altstore.io However, according to Apple's docs, they only allow alternative app stores in the EU and Japan, so you have to be using an iOS account with the region set to one of those two places and be physically located there in order to install the app store. Not something that's easy to experiment with for people in the USA to see how the other half lives. > Or is EU just trying to milk rich USA tech giants (I think I know the answer). I don't really see an angle for the EU to do much milking here. Actually I think the AltStore founders are Americans? So they seem to be reaping the benefits of EU and Japanese legislation, remotely.
- troupo 10mo ago
  > However, according to Apple's docs, they only allow alternative app stores in the EU and Japan Also: even though Apple is explicitly told not to censor these alternative stores, Apple effectively does this through notarization
Terretta 10mo ago
> are there any real 3rd-party AppStores for iOS now "Always has been": Setapp. Very interesting model. Readily recommend devs subscribing to this collection, but non-devs as well if you're into "there's an app for that" and fatigued with IAP. https://setapp.com/ https://setapp.com/

rdtsc 10mo ago

> privacy rules imposed by Apple for iOS devices, as of April 2021, on third-party developers of apps distributed through the App Store. In particular, third-party app developers are required to obtain specific consent for the collection and linking of data for advertising purposes through Apple’s ATT prompt Wait, so they are punishing Apple because Apple makes it harder to spy on users. What happens if Apple just exits the Italian market? They can create their own Apple competitor, I guess.

amarcheschi 10mo ago
As far as I can understand, the fine is for having a prompt for 3rd party apps, but not apple's own apps. Then I'm not sure because even to me, the wording used by the authority is not entirely clear, but the issue would lie in a different treatment reserved for 3rd parties compared to 1st party apps
- dns_snek 10mo ago
  Yes, precisely, take a look at the summary document [1] at the bottom of the article. > xii. As a matter of fact, revenues from App Store services increased, in terms of higher commissions collected from developers through the platform; likewise, Apple’s advertising division, which is not subject to the same stringent rules, ultimately benefited from increased revenues and higher volumes of intermediated ads > xiii. Therefore, considering that Apple holds an absolute dominant position in the market for the supply to developers of platforms for the online distribution of apps to users of the iOS operating system, the Authority established that Apple’s conduct amounts to an exploitative abuse, in breach of Article 102 TFEU, that started in April 2021 and is still ongoing. [1] https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf https://en.agcm.it/dotcmsdoc/pressrelease/A561_SUMMARY.pdf
- concinds 10mo ago
  ATT isn't about a vendor tracking you across their apps (Facebook can still log you into all their apps at once). It's about using data collected by third-parties or sending data to third party trackers, which Apple doesn't do for their own ads.

concinds 10mo ago

> The Authority found the App Tracking Transparency (“ATT”) policy to restrict competition. [...] > In particular, third-party app developers are required to obtain specific consent for the collection and linking of data for advertising purposes through Apple’s ATT prompt. However, such prompt does not meet privacy legislation requirements, forcing developers to double the consent request for the same purpose. > The Authority established that the terms of the ATT policy are imposed unilaterally and harm the interests of Apple’s commercial partners. The terms were also found to be disproportionate to the achievement of the company’s stated data protection objectives. They must think we're fucking stupid.

petcat 10mo ago
EU privacy regulations and the GDPR are a complete farce. You'll notice that the EU's own government websites are littered with cookie banners. They want the data just as bad as everybody else. The goal was not in any way to protect privacy, but rather to extract rent from American tech companies.
- hnbad 10mo ago
  > They want the data just as bad as everybody else. Sure. Let's look at the main site: https://european-union.europa.eu/index_en https://european-union.europa.eu/index_en Big cookie banner. Wait. What's that. It's not a modal? And a big "Accept only essential cookies" button with the same visual weight as the "Accept all cookies" button? Surely everybody does it this way because it's literally what EU law requires - surely nobody would try to trick people into clicking "accept all" by hiding the alternative behind multiple layers of opaque options and checkboxes. So let's look at what data they are harvesting: https://european-union.europa.eu/cookies_en https://european-union.europa.eu/cookies_en Technical cookies... functional cookies... boring - most of these are just for handling logins and preferences. Ooh, analytics! But what's Europa Analytics? Let's check: https://european-union.europa.eu/europa-analytics_en https://european-union.europa.eu/europa-analytics_en Oh, they are not only opt-in, they even respect DNT headers. And they're masking the IP addresses before processing them further. Damn, they must really want that data just as bad as "everybody else".
- 10mo ago

runako 10mo ago

This looks like it's targeted at the relationship between Apple and Italian developers. I guess this means Apple could also comply by kicking Italian developers out of the iOS developer program?

esperent 10mo ago
Unlikely because services in the EU have to be offered without barriers to everyone across all member states.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
- joe_mamba 10mo ago
  Which EU law say that exact thing? Because now I live in an EU country that had (and has) foreign products and services, typically of US origin, that are not officially available in my home EU country, like for example Xbox GamePass for console. Was same with Nextflix till a few years ago. Same with AMEX cards. So NO, you can definitely provide your services only to specific EU member states if that's what you wish, they can't force you to sell in all countries.
  - macbr 10mo ago
    You're right but there has been some progress in that matter. I.e. streaming providers can't stop you from watching Germany exclusive Netflix content when on holidays in Greece using your German Netflix subscription (only free/ad supported services are allowed to do that)
  - esperent 10mo ago
    It's called the Shop Like a Local rule, from 2018. Basically, Apple can stop selling developer accounts in Italy if they wish. They might run into issues on discrimination grounds, but it would probably be a long fight. However, they can't prevent an Italian developer from purchasing a developer account from another EU country. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/geo-blocking-addressing-discriminatory-treatment-of-customers.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/geo-block...

nradov 10mo ago

I don't necessarily disagree with this ruling, but it's sad that EU governments now take in more revenue from fining US tech companies than from taxing local tech companies. An entire continent is on the path of becoming parasites instead of builders. Will they ever adopt a growth and abundance agenda again?

amarcheschi 10mo ago
Maybe companies that break eu/local rules could respect the law
- arpinum 10mo ago
  Hard to respect vague laws. Apple can't read the regulators' minds and figure out their interpretations, or instantly pivot when regulators change their minds.
  - Steve16384 10mo ago
    So, like being a citizen then?
  - dns_snek 10mo ago
    You don't need to read minds to know that abusing your dominant market position in one market to disadvantage your competitors in a different market (advertising) has a very high likelihood of breaking competition rules. That's a textbook example of anti-competitive behavior. When did they change their minds, can you provide a link to a previous regulatory decision which approved this behavior?
  - jltsiren 10mo ago
    All laws are inherently vague. Some actions are clearly legal and some are clearly illegal. Between them, there is a gray zone, where it can be impossible to say in advance what's legal and what isn't. If you are an amoral profit maximizer, like the average publicly traded company, it's often rational to take risks by entering the gray zone. Sometimes nobody cares that you do that. Sometimes you manage to get a favorable court ruling. And sometimes the expected gains outweigh the eventual fines. It's almost always easy to comply with the laws by playing it safe. But shareholders don't like that.

wendgeabos 10mo ago

The government is everywhere prone to becoming the mafia.

dinkblam 10mo ago

no year goes by without Italy imposing random >100m€ fines for 2-3 american tech companies. whenever they need money, they just hit another one without care whether actual laws were violated. the amount they take has no correlation to what has been blamed, only to how much the companies can afford to pay without threatening to leave the country. the 'Guardia di Finanza' has a long standing tradition of trying to extort money without regards to actual laws. its not long ago that they told all companies 'if you pay X% more than your tax report says you own then we won't destroy your company'. more recently they went after the Agnelli family trying to extort money without having an actual case. its not the rule of law, its simply Might makes Right or modern robber knights...

threemux 10mo ago
It's the EU way. The only area where they produce world-leading innovation is regulatory regimes, so gotta use it to hit up American tech companies like an ATM.
- razakel 10mo ago
  Just an idea - how about not breaking the law?
  - threemux 10mo ago
    Oh please. "The law" is a Kafkaesque patchwork that delegates authority to local officials and has enough complexity and wiggle room to make anything possible. We're not talking about a speed limit sign here. Show me the [company], I'll show you the crime. I've been assured by people in this thread and others that, for example, if you "don't spy on users", you don't need cookie banners, and yet official EU sites have them.
    - embedding-shape 10mo ago
      > Show me the [company], I'll show you the crime. Yeah, maybe that floats the people's boat wherever you live, but in other countries where people's health and well-being go above corporate interests, it is not common for companies to break the law. > for example, if you "don't spy on users", you don't need cookie banners, and yet official EU sites have them. Which is true, and you can understand that yourself by not relying on others, but reading the regulation yourself. It's actually pretty simple, and I think even someone who don't like regulations would be able to get through it if you apply yourself. And yeah, even official EU sites could avoid it if they'd chose to not use tracking cookies. Not sure what the gotcha is supposed to be here? There is no inconsistency here.

fn348x2 10mo ago

On the Euro, Maastricht Treaty circa. ratified in 1992. Is certainly a leverage in Apple’s third-party research.

earthnail 10mo ago

Surprised by the negative comments here. Usually HN univocally complains about Apple‘s dominant App Store. Now a government fines them for it and some people are upset?

petcat 10mo ago
I think people would sympathize more if it was something like "Apple makes choosing a different default browser or email client unnecessarily cumbersome" -- instead of "Apple makes you double-opt-in to sharing your private data with even more advertisers"
- dns_snek 10mo ago
  But that's not the story here. I hate ads as much as anyone, but this action is a matter of market competition, not privacy. They're completely different fights and intelligent people ought to be able to distinguish between the two. Anti-competitive behavior by Google, Apple, Meta, etc. is what got us into this mess with tracking and privacy violations in the first place.
  - lukeschlather 10mo ago
    It's the market for privacy violations. I'd go so far as to say that improving competitiveness in this market probably makes the world worse, by making privacy violations more profitable. If they had fined them for not allowing sideloading, or not allowing third-party payments, it would be a different story. Those are markets I want to see grow and thrive.
    - dns_snek 10mo ago
      They received a complaint, they investigated and issued a fine. You're asking them to selectively enforce laws based on their subjective opinion of some industry, which would be highly illegal. The entire advertising industry needs to die and I'll support every fight in pursuit of that goal, but this isn't about that. You don't dismantle an industry by picking a winner and letting them get away with crime. And yes, there needs to be an EU-wide action over all of those other issues you mentioned too but that has nothing to do with this particular case.

primer42 10mo ago

Apple makes, what, $1 billion (with a B) in profit every day. So this is nothing to them.

groundzeros2015 10mo ago
What about profit in Italy? Relative amounts don’t make it right or wrong.

linhns 10mo ago

I’m on the fence on this matter however they need to look at other actions of fellow big companies, for equality under the laws.

ursAxZA 10mo ago

I might be missing some procedural detail, but if there’s no formal “warning → fixed-window for correction → penalty” sequence, isn’t that just state overreach? If the issue has existed for years, retroactively jumping straight to fines feels less like regulation and more like the government exploiting its timing advantage.

ece 10mo ago

The answer to Apples self-preferencing would be to let users opt-out of Apple's on device spying, like installing another OS.