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Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands
- justmedep 11mo agoComing from Switzerland to the US: I do not want to leave. Everything is better here… maybe not for the average person but for some individuals.
- ohm 11mo agoCan you give some examples?
- WarcrimeActual 11mo agoI mean it's kind of obvious right. He's rich.
- dole 11mo agoAmerica rich perhaps, possibly not Swiss rich.
- lclc 11mo agoSwitzerland is one of the best countries to be if you are rich, because it's safe and nobody will target you for driving a Porsche (probably the most common car brand in canton Zug), or similar. So I'd be interested what he means too. What is for sure better in the US: There is way more space.
- dauertewigkeit 11mo agoIt's a small country, relatively speaking. Rather dull cities, again relatively speaking. Rural land is hard to come by and expensive. Not a lot of sunshine hours either. Not English speaking, not an immigrant culture, and quite an insular society so if you're not born there it kinda sucks. The cities punch way above their weight, but in total the tech job market is still tiny compared to the US. If you like being outdoors, Switzerland has one landscape, pretty much. It's heaven for rich people, but a very specific kind of heaven.
- lucyjojo 11mo agowell... if you want other landscapes, you can travel outside of switzerland... it's easy...
- Pet_Ant 11mo ago...do you really need examples? In America, *if* you have money, everything is better than anywhere else. Maybe Dubai can compare but there are some strong trade offs. America has the best healthcare. Not the best value, but the best healthcare. It has low taxes, lots of world class cultural institutions, and varied beautiful geography. It is the Rome of our age. Corrupt, amoral, and exploitative? Sure, but with money you can overlook that.
- yeahthatguy10 11mo agoI have a chronic disease making over 500K dollars and I can tell you the US healthcare (from primary care to specialists) ability to help me stay on track or identify health issues has been null. If it wasn't because I second guess every recommendation, go and pay out of pocket tests (even though I gotta pay 4K+ in insurance premiums) I would have been dead by now. No, the US does not have the best healthcare not even close. Scenario 1: You fall head first from a 10th floor. US healthcare has higher chance of saving your life. Scenario 2: You are an average person that hopes to get preventive medical care. You will die in the U.S of the most basic medical condition.
- mantas 11mo agoIt's likely that you'd have issues in pretty much any country in the world with your conditions. For example many european single-payer systems have tons of exceptions. Covering only basic tests/procedures/drugs (premium available out-of-pocket only), queues (jumping queue is possible by paying out-of-pocket) and incompetent doctors (longer queues at the good ones). And you pay a huge insurance for this, so there's not that much money left to pay out-of-pocket for most people.
- Gud 11mo agoNone of those things are better in America than in Switzerland. Unlike the US, Switzerland has the added bonus of having a very stable democracy.
- mothballed 11mo agoGuns and (relatively) freedom of speech (yes I'm aware it comes with asterisk) are the two big ones. If I left the USA it would probably be to a place with weak governance on these points in practice rather than on paper. Only Yemen, Iraq, Somaliland, parts of Pakistan, parts of Rojava and maybe KRG (Kurdistan), Idlib, and Palestine are only places I know of with looser (to me better) gun laws than America and out of all those I'd only really consider Somaliland & KRG & Rojava as places where a westerner could probably settle without getting their head cut off. Freedom of speech, IDK where, hard to find anyplace with looser speech restriction than America. However if you are willing to go with de facto rather than de jure, plenty of places in Africa and Latam can be freer on these points, especially if you have a little coin. Financially though, places like Dubai blow away the absolutely dystopic USA controls like FATCA and world taxation/filing, KYC, AML and other madness USA uses to keep an iron grip on traditional finance channels.
- titanomachy 11mo agoI think relatively few people choose their home based on “where can I have the most guns and least oversight on banking”. But I suspect that the people who care about these things care about them a LOT.
- Bender 11mo agoFor me it was a factor to some degree. I am not a firearm collector. For me it was knowing that I was moving from a state that hates firearms and wants to justify law enforcement budgets by punishing anyone that defends themselves to a state that not only has very few restrictions on firearms and ammo but also actively and legally supports people defending themselves and their neighbors. That was just one of many factors however. No state income tax was also a big plus for me personally.
- ryandrake 11mo agoIt seems so weird to even know which states "hate firearms" and which ones support them, let alone care. It's not something that would even appear on my radar if I had to move across the country to some new town. I'm worried about things like good schools, access to amenities, commute times, access to fresh air and nature, stuff like that. How gun-friendly the place is? It wouldn't even make my top 20 or even cross my mind. Do Americans really factor this into their decision when they move somewhere? I take it as a given that being in America in general means you could be shot randomly, with a uniform, but low probability distribution. It doesn't really matter what the state's gun laws are. So outside of notoriously "unsafe" areas, it doesn't play into my mind at all.
- ponector 11mo agoIt's hard to stuff your cybertruck with automatic rifles and machine guns in Switzerland. Huh, even a parking is an issue for cybertruck!
- _zagj 11mo agoThe Swiss have guns. Though their roads probably aren't well-suited to Cybertrucking
- showerst 11mo agoThat's the root of it, isn't it? America is pretty great if you're in the upper 20% or so, and otherwise it's losing ground fast.
- xp84 11mo agoPerhaps, but the places where it’s arguably nicer (than US) to be bottom 50% are that way because of side-effects of America being how America has always been. Without things like US NATO membership, someone in, let’s say Europe, might eventually find themselves made forcibly familiar with what actual fascism is, by being “welcomed” into Soviet Union 2.0, now without the communist trappings. If you think Soviet bread lines are better than SNAP benefits, I don’t think you’ve read enough history.
- kuerbel 11mo agoI live in Germany and I'm not afraid of Russia. If they had more manpower they would have overrun Ukraine by now. They do not. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, but Russia stands no chance. Not even with Belarus on their side or some other satellite states.
- lostmsu 11mo agoThat's an example. What would you do if the next government pulls Hungary or early Putin on you and starts banning opposition media with courts saying it's fine refusing to hear the case?
- kuerbel 11mo agoGermany can slide, but it’s much harder than in Hungary or early Putin’s Russia. The Basic Law has built-in guardrails: core rights can’t be abolished, the Constitutional Court can block illiberal laws instantly, power is decentralized across the Länder, and changing the constitution requires supermajorities no extremist party can reach. The domestic intelligence service can monitor or restrict anti-democratic parties, and Germany’s civil society, courts, and media are structurally hard to capture. An AfD-led government would hit legal and institutional tripwires long before it could rewrite the system.
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agoWhen you say 'everything is better' are you just talking about higher compensation > *? Cause I can think a number of 'quality of life' things that europe does better.
- dauertewigkeit 11mo agoUS just has more to offer.
- jonkoops 11mo agoMore school shooting, more obesity, more unwalkable hellscapes, it's got it all!
- Yizahi 11mo agoMoney can buy quality of life, and people earning 100-150k in USA per person in household do confirm this. And this purchasing ability is not linear, because of the fixed costs for many good and services. Previously many countries with low salaries had corresponding low cost of life (and cost of quality of life), but today the costs are rising faster than salaries everywhere across the globe, so the biggest winners are people who earn more in absolute values, hence rich Americans.
- array_key_first 11mo ago> Money can buy quality of life It actually can't, not generally at least for US labor. One of the most important measures of quality is work-life balance. Basically, your life kinda sucks if you work all the time, and then you also get fat and sick and die young(er). People in the US work a lot, and often the more wealthy, but not most wealthy, work A TON. In programming, it's not atypical to have "superstar" staff engineers putting in easily 60-70 hours a week. Of course, not including the commute. But then there's the time off. Oh, where to begin. We're at a point where 10 days of PTO accrued a year is considered decent. It's work work work, and you can put in 20 years of service... and get, like, an extra couple days. Maybe. None of this scales down. For example, I'm supposed to be working 40 hours a week. I'm not of course, the baseline is 45 because 9-5 is actually 9-6. And I haven't left at 6 in at least a year, so even that is underestimating it. But suppose I do work 40 hours a week. Would I take a 50% pay cut to work 20 hours? Fuck. Yes. Yes. In a heart beat. But I can't, I'd actually be taking an 80% pay cut if I do that, so I couldn't live. And it's like this for literally ALL jobs. I can't just "move up", because the work-life balance doesn't get better, it actually just gets worse! And at no point can I take a "step down" and work less, because then I'm flipping burgers.
- 1970-01-01 11mo agoLeaving now is the best way to ensure things get worse. If you've given up, your vote no longer counts and your voice no longer matters.
- phantasmish 11mo agoVotes in many contests for many citizens already don’t matter, due to our system of elections being really bad.
- lifeisgood99 11mo agoIf the boat is sinking, I wouldn't stay on.
- qaq 11mo agoIf this boat sinks there will not be places you can hide in
- ben_w 11mo agoThe USA is important, but not *that* important. Even the British survived the end of the British empire, and that was bigger relative to the world than the US is now.
- victorbjorklund 11mo agoSilly argument. Empires rise and fall. USA isn’t the end of history. If USA sinks it won’t be great for the rest of the world but no not everything else will fall.
- qaq 11mo agoSure but if the place you plan to escape to enjoyed protection of the falling empire before the fall things can go south fairly fast
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- stackedinserter 11mo agoTo learn how to leave USA one needs to pass the newyorker paywall.
- repeekad 11mo agoIt’s just click bait, no clue why it’s on hn
- ryanalam 11mo agoYou shall not pass
- cousin_it 11mo agoRecently seeing lots of paywalled articles on HN that quickly get tens of upvotes before they get any comments.
- not_good_coder 11mo agoFollow-up paywalled article: How to enter the USA
- redrove 11mo agohttps://archive.is/JOmN3 https://archive.is/JOmN3
- dogemaster2032 11mo agoThis is the moment for all those Hollywood personalities and other liberals to learn how to leave for real, not just talk about it!
- qaq 11mo agoIf things deteriorate in US there will not be places to leave to pretty soon
- dr_dshiv 11mo agoCome to the Netherlands! It’s awesome. And the visa is easy: just put 5k in a business account. Look up Dutch American friendship treaty.
- eli_gottlieb 11mo agoSo a business account is one belonging to a business, right?
- busterarm 11mo agoBut finding housing is brutal.
- jonkoops 11mo agoIt is. Unfortunately, the most of the EU is affected by the housing crisis.
- koakuma-chan 11mo agoWhich country is not affected by housing crisis?
- mothballed 11mo agoKazakhstan, Laos, maybe Romania. Croatia, not terrible.
- swat535 11mo agoGenuinely asking, are there any country that doesn't have a housing crisis right now? From my understanding, it's everywhere in Western nations
- stop50 11mo agoAt least for my state in germany we have an crisis of housing in big cities. In small vilages and cities it is pretty cheap to buy a house.
- neilv 11mo agoGreat Moments in UX Below the teaser blurb ending "The Netherlands offers one way out," and the byline, where you'd expect the article to start, is the text "Your window is closing." Fortunately, if you scroll further, the ominous warning turns out to only be for the paywall. https://i.imgur.com/4WT4S8u.png https://i.imgur.com/4WT4S8u.png
- briandw 11mo agoAnd go where? Seriously I don’t know of another country that isn’t on the same authoritarian track, if not further along. If anyone has done a serious study and come up with a country that still has strong judicial independence, due process, lack of censorship and respect for private property, Id love to know
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agoThe nordics? New Zealand? Any number of small countries (Belgium, Czechia) that still have a functional government that actually serves the people
- tga 11mo agoBelgium is not not exactly known for its functional government. They have a lot of them and can't seem to quite keep them together. https://www.brusselstimes.com/1862716/542-days-brussels-breaks-belgian-record-for-longest-period-without-a-government https://www.brusselstimes.com/1862716/542-days-brussels-brea...
- toomuchtodo 11mo agoI split my time between a Midwest state and Spain. My children and family are safer when in Spain, imho. Ymmv, n=1. It is more humane to the human, and the health insurance for a family of four is ~$2k/year. There is no perfect, just good enough. I do not worry about gun violence there, I do not worry about them going without healthcare, I do not worry about their human rights being impaired, I don't worry about them as pedestrians getting harmed by careless drivers driving unnecessarily large personal vehicles on urban infrastructure hostile in pedestrians (Houston is actively removing a roundabout because their drivers are too incompetent to use it, for example). This is my success criteria, yours may be different.
- Pet_Ant 11mo ago> Seriously I don’t know of another country that isn’t on the same authoritarian track, New Zealand? Canada? Japan? France? I mean you really aren't trying there. > if not further along. The only places further along are China, Russia, Georgia, Venezuela, and Hungary. Even Slovakia or Poland or Germany aren't as bad (though still troubling). It's really hard to be more authoritarian than the US is now still. The Feds claiming they'll keep going at Comey yet again really seals the deal there . Not saying it's worth it for you, but there are lots of places.
- paulddraper 11mo agoLol. I know what the comments will be. And the US is one of the top immigrant countries in the world. Always worth reflecting why people choose that when there is greener gras.
- lm28469 11mo ago> And the US is one of the top immigrant countries in the world. Always worth reflecting why people choose that It's nowhere the top as a percent of the total population. It's at the top in absolute number because it's the largest developed country by far.
- paulddraper 11mo agoComparison is hard, because states themselves are the size (land and population) as other countries. People that would be counted "immigrants" elsewhere are not. E.g. Switzerland has an unusually high immigrant population, but also an unusually high emmigrant population. The U.S. has 52m immigrants and 4.8m emmigrants. [1] Nowhere else is nearly that ratio. Next closest would be Canada. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_immigrant_and_emigrant_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_im...
- jonkoops 11mo agoMoney. You get paid much better in the US, you just have to accept the physical and mental implications of what it brings with it.
- paulddraper 11mo agoThat's really it. Even adjusted for CoL and public benefits, the U.S. pays well, at least on the upper end.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- aa-jv 11mo agoThe US is a top immigrant country because it isn't bombing itself, and there is still the perception that one can go from nothing to something - but that barn door is closing, for sure.
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- zbiggistardust 11mo agoThere are much better places in the world to move to than the Netherlands
- poly2it 11mo agoFor example?
- uyzstvqs 11mo agoYou can expect 25%-50% the salary, with a cost-of-living similar to the SF Bay Area throughout the entire country. Relatively little jobs, a lot of legacy tech stacks, and these days a lot of stuff is outsourced to American SaaS platforms. High taxes, but they cover next to nothing for the average person. Go to Eastern Europe, Switzerland, Scandinavia, maybe Italy or Greece.
- ponector 11mo ago>> Go to Eastern Europe, maybe Italy or Greece. Where you can expect salary to be a half of salary in Netherlands and even less returns from your taxes, which are anyway >30% Good choice!
- lacoolj 11mo agoYep. Like the US. :)
- mosura 11mo agoWent for dinner with a Parisian friend of mine. He spent a good amount of it complaining that Paris is unrecognizable from his youth. Too many Americans, everywhere!
- meindnoch 11mo agoYikes. There are lot of black people in Paris, but they're not necessarily American. In fact, most of them are from African French colonies.
- masfuerte 11mo agoWTF? How do you get from Americans to black people?
- lacoolj 11mo agoI never knew "Parisian" was how to refer to "one from Paris" Learn something new every day. To be clear, I just didn't think anyone would refer to someone from Paris specifically (rather than, "French"). I mean, a lot of places you would add "-ite" but I'm guessing that would be a less-than-ideal suffix for this particular city lol
- Almondsetat 11mo agoReëlection?
- dcminter 11mo agoThe New Yorker house style. https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2020/03/24/umlauts-diaereses-and-the-new-yorker/ https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2020/03/24/umlauts-diaereses-... Seems weird to me, I'd just use a hyphen, but that's how they roll.
- karmakurtisaani 11mo agoI bet they have a dedicated room without ventilation so they can smell their own farts uninterrupted. Seriously, I find it highly pretentious.
- reddalo 11mo agoExplanation here: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-curse-of-the-diaeresis https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-curse-of-... > [...] we have three options for these kinds of words: “cooperate,” “co-operate,” and “coöperate.” Back when the magazine was just getting started, someone decided that the first misread and the second was ridiculous, and adopted the diaeresis as the most elegant solution with the broadest application.
- AnimalMuppet 11mo agoThey decided the dieresis was less ridiculous than the hyphen?
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- ernst_klim 11mo agoBetter explain to me how to get to the USA.
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- jbstack 11mo agoI love the Netherlands and have spent a few months trying it out as a place to live. It's among my favourite places: moderate weather, friendly people, a high level of personal freedom, very high rate of English speakers, clean and modern environment, good international restaurants, lively town centres even in smaller towns, most towns have rivers / canals which make them very pleasant to walk around. I could list many other positive things. There are some (big) downsides though. Properties are very small and very expensive compared to other European countries, so you can't expect a high standard of living in this aspect unless you have plenty of money. Taxes are also very high. In addition to the usual income taxes, you pay a wealth tax and the threshold is very low (around 55k EUR in savings/assets) so this isn't only targeting very rich people. This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future. If it wasn't for these last two points I'd almost definitely move there.
- wing-_-nuts 11mo ago>Taxes are also very high. In addition to the usual income taxes, you pay a wealth tax and the threshold is very low (around 55k EUR in savings/assets) so this isn't only targeting very rich people. This makes it a pretty bad place to live if you care about investing and saving for the future. This was a deal breaker for me as someone on the FIRE path. It's neighbor, Belgium, is much better in this respect.
- lm28469 11mo agoFIRE people are funny, I wouldn't retire in belgium even if I was paid for it personally. Do you just order by tax rate and move wherever the number is the smallest ? I never heard of anyone moving to Belgium for anything other than family or cross border workers
- jadyoyster 11mo agoBecause Belgium didn't have capital gains tax it was actually common to (fake) retire to Belgium for wealthy individuals. There's supposed to be a capital gains tax from 2026 though.
- toomuchtodo 11mo agou/andrewstetsenko has lots of great posts on this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=relocateme.substack.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=relocateme.substack.c... https://old.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/urwlbr/a_guide_for_americans_that_want_to_get_out_of/ https://old.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/comments/urwlbr/a_guide_fo... is also helpful. (no affiliation, I just like folks helping folks get out)
- mvkel 11mo agoAs an immigrant to the US, I've often viewed the fervent wish to depart (among natural born citizens) to be the ultimate form of self-entitlement. That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most. It's being tested right now, and leaving is the only way to fail. Also, why do you think any other country would -love- to have you?
- jonkoops 11mo agoSounds a bit like a Stockholm syndrome argument to be honest. There is nothing wrong with moving somewhere else because it aligns with your ideals and needs.
- toomuchtodo 11mo agoThe evidence broadly shows that the people who vote for this will not change their mind. Not when their farming business is likely going to fail due to tariffs (~78% of farmers voted for this), not when their North Carolina saw mill that has been in the family for forty years is forced to close (Mackey’s Ferry Sawmill), not when their ACA subsidies and SNAP benefits are pulled. One's presence and voice is immaterial. One can both vote and donate to campaigns from abroad; there is literally nothing one can do on US soil you cannot do from abroad while not exposing yourself and potentially family to a slowly failing and degrading governance system, that by all observations and evidence, hates its citizens with policy. As I often ask when problem scoping, "What is your time horizon?" Will things change in 3, 5, 7, 10 years? ~2M voters 55+ die every year in the US, ~5k per day (mental models are rigid, progress occurs one funeral at a time as Planck said). Young voters were very excited for this admin, and now that vibes have met reality, they are not so excited, with a roughly 50 point swing in favorability in polling. I expect a swing back, considering recent elections over the last few weeks, but it will take quite some time. So, from a first principles perspective, if you can live somewhere safer, better, or other idea of more favorable while losing nothing, why not? You can always move back if the US gets its shit together, and if it doesn't, you have made a home and life for yourself somewhere more favorable. Leaving is not giving up, it is merely having a better life experience while sacrificing nothing except US in person work opportunities and proximity to friends and loved ones (if applicable) for the time horizon in question. Some may feel entitled to functional governance systems, and they should (imho) vote with their feet and wallets. It is a rational evaluation in a volatile environment. And if another country is offering you a residency visa or path to citizenship, they clearly want you. You might not be aware, but the developed world is going through a working age population crunch due to structural demographics; skilled workers are in demand, as well as those with either investment, pension, or social security income. (think in systems)
- aa-jv 11mo agoAustralian here, grew up in the great south-west, and then I lived in the USA for 15 years, decided it was bunk, switched to Europe and have now been in middle-Europe (Austria) for 18 years, with a year in the UK and a year in Japan, for context. My quality of life has increased dramatically with every move. Europe as a place to live is just so much better than Aus->USA ever was .. better health care, better food, better people and culture. Only thing that falters is the weather - but I tell you, there is nothing more joyous than Vienna in spring time. Anyway, I've run the gamut on western civilization. I won't go back to the USA or Australia, no sir - and even if, only as a tourist, never to reside again. Ask me anything.
- archagon 11mo agoWhat's the reason you rank Australia below the US? As a San Franciscan, I recently visited Sydney and Melbourne for the first time and thought they were incredible. Food-wise, I don't think I had a single bad meal in Melbourne, and I wasn't even trying particularly hard to find the good stuff. I think I'd love the opportunity to live there someday. Europe is wonderful, but to quote Joni Mitchell, "it's too old and cold and settled in its ways here." (Not to mention the looming spectre of war...)
- aa-jv 11mo agoFrom my personal point of view, and based on my personal history as a victim of Australia's heinously racist White Stolen Generation (and who was eventually returned to my birth mother because of her strong will), Australia is a totalitarian-authoritarian fascist hell hole that got away with genocide, and will bend over backwards to function as a lackey for the US' military-industrial complex. There's not a single racist war that Australians won't follow the USA into fighting. See also: Pine Gap. My personal reason for leaving Australia is that I don't want to participate in a racist society. Read its constitution, its an utter embarrassment. Tourists don't often get through this bubble, seeing only the shiny bits, but for those WSG's of us who grew up in the countryside, also with Aboriginal friends and family members, the dark underbelly of Australian society rubs us a bit raw - or at least it does in my case. Casual racism in Australia is like none other in the world, and I find it detestable, personally, so I have no desire to participate in its economy. I left as soon as I could, to follow my own American dream - which reality quickly revealed was little more than a Disney fantasy. Europe has its own problems - sure, the Ukraine war is a catastrophe of uniquely European origins - but I'd much rather live in a country that isn't involving itself in the worlds wars at the moment. Austria has been an absolutely great place to raise kids with a cosmopolitan, international attitude that will stand the test of time - of course, there are always exceptions to the rule, but in my personal case, its just been a better place to live, period. Only issue I have is the weather can be hard for someone who grew up on the beaches and in the outback, but the spring and summer always makes up for it. The thing that truly disturbed me about life in the US was its nationalist groupthink, which seeks to justify the atrocities the American people enact on those cultures its ruling classes have deemed inferior. Same is the case with Australia. I guess I freely admit, that as a foreign ex-pat living in a non-native bubble, its a lot easier to avoid the groupthink by just moving to Europe - where of course it also exists in spades - but I'd rather live the life of a refugee or interlocutor than participate in the Wests' heinously racist wars. My kids have been raised multi-lingual, speak German/English very fluently, and are also learning Russian and Ukrainian in school to prepare themselves for a future where Austria is, once again, a safe place for citizens of both countries to co-mingle, as they once did. That is a forward-focused quality of life issue that simply doesn't exist in either the USA or Australia: the kids in this part of the world actually want to learn each others languages. Just like it was the norm in Aboriginal cultures, incidentally. (You were considered defective if you only spoke one language...)
- lunias 11mo agoAh, yes. Of course, in the wake of the fall of the United States, everywhere else on earth will immediately flourish. Just my 2 cents, but before you leave, you might want to talk to some immigrants about what brought them to the United States in the first place.
- alamortsubite 11mo agoI assume you mean people who have immigrated from the Netherlands to the U.S. in the past year? It'd be interesting to hear their thoughts, for sure. I don't think the data is available yet, but I expect those numbers are sharply down, so it might not be easy to find anyone to talk to.
- lunias 11mo ago100%. I mean people that immigrated to the US from anywhere though. I was joking with a store clerk and mentioned Germany as a potential escape vector. The lady in line behind me says in a German accent, "You don't want to live in Germany."
- Tadpole9181 11mo agoAs if immigrants fleeing Nazis in WWII 90 years ago or folk from less wealthy regions of the world today are a barometer for the state of the Netherlands? The Netherlands is already doing well today, and don't have the grim outlooks of the current US. It's not perfect and the fall of the US would have enormous impacts, of course, but this seems like a total non sequitur.
- lunias 11mo agoI'm not sure I understand your point, nor you mine. I'm not commenting about the Netherlands specifically, I'm commenting about people leaving the United States for anywhere because they feel similar to you about "the grim outlooks of the current US". It's a common narrative, but about 10x more people immigrate to the US every year as compared to the Netherlands. A lot of people in the US are like, "Trump sucks, I'm moving to Spain." Most of them never will, they just like saying they will. They don't speak Spanish, have no contacts anywhere outside of the US, have never been to Spain, etc. I'm just suggesting that the grass is not always greener on the other side, there are always trade-offs and some of the best ways to learn about those trade-offs is talking with people that have lived in both places.
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agoWhy was this flagged?
- deleted 11mo ago[deleted]
- wrathofmonads 11mo agoI sometimes wonder whether the political attitudes of some immigrants and their descendants are shaped by negative experiences or family histories from their countries of origin. This might help explain why people with backgrounds in places like South Africa, the Levant, or Eastern Europe often express strong libertarian views or criticize institutions such as the European Union, progressive politics, or European bureaucratic culture. Many people don’t realize how much European countries have advanced. Poland and Romania, for example, have been among the major beneficiaries of EU integration. At the same time, American tech companies enjoyed relatively easy access to the European market for years, operating with limited regulation, while countries like Russia and China restricted foreign platforms early on and invested heavily in developing their own cloud and digital infrastructures.
- jonkoops 11mo agoPoland really is a great example of a modern EU state that has flourished, I am so proud of them, they deserve it.
- karmakurtisaani 11mo agoI like to think their economy would be on par with France and Germany if it wasn't for the Russian occupation. But with the present growth, they'll get there soon enough!
- rib3ye 11mo agoThe US would be better off every American did attempt to expatriate. In my own experience, I quickly saw and stared to miss the many strengths of our way of life. For the curious about which country it was, see my username.
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agoI wouldn't say every American should try to be an expat. I think we'd be better off as a society if everyone traveled abroad more. I know most can't afford that, but I'd be totally down for a state funded 'study abroad' program for bright students. Other places have ideas we can learn from (and vice versa)
- yeahthatguy10 11mo agoThe average American thinks the U.S is the best country in the world. I say that as an American. To your point if people saw how the rest of the world lives and how happy many of those 7.88 Billion people are they would start being more vocal about our endless cycle of work until you are 85 to be able to pay your property taxes.
- Freedom2 11mo ago> The average American thinks the U.S is the best country in the world. If it wasn't, then why would the American school system teach American students that it is?
- wing-_-nuts 11mo agoHave you heard of the word 'propaganda'? For pete's sake, it's not legal in many states to even cover slavery, the indian genocide, or japanese internment in a way that actually holds the US responsible
- eudamoniac 11mo agoIf an average American chose to have the standard of living of the average 7.88 billion, they could retire very very young.
- xqcgrek2 11mo agoThis shouldn't be flagged. This is valuable information that might save countless lives given the current trajectory.
- pessimizer 11mo agoVery weird story. I can't figure out why these people want to leave, so I'm just inserting random Trump policy here, but all of the Netherlands doesn't allow illegal immigrants to stay indefinitely, allows people to pay for citizenship, and in the case of the Irish passport, they're being offered a visa based on who their parents were. Is it tariffs? Taxes are higher there. Is it the social services, health care, foreign invasions? Half of these people were Republicans until five minutes ago, and physically participated in our most unjustifiable wars. The Netherlands I assume is like the rest of Europe and is fanatically anti-Palestinian (they love any excuse to pretend the Nazis were somebody else) and anti-Russian to the point of demanding invasion. They're upset because Trump is marginally not aggressive enough for them, and is not financing foreign interventions more. They think that the US taxpayer might only pay for 75% of it, rather than 90%. It seems to me that, and it shouldn't be surprising considering the outlet, that it's just a bunch of wealthy people who are embarrassed to be ruled by a wrestling valet game show host. The reason why we got the clown is because these people are so awful. It's nothing but an improvement for the US to dump them on Europe. As their old asses get sick, Europe can take care of them for free while they still have their millions (from getting in early on the property market and getting jobs back when there were still pensions) invested in Vanguard funds.
- rsynnott 11mo ago> The Netherlands I assume is like the rest of Europe and is fanatically anti-Palestinian The Netherlands is one of five countries to withdraw from the Eurovision over Israel being allowed to participate in 2026 (the others are Ireland, Spain, Slovenia and Iceland), fwiw. > and anti-Russian to the point of demanding invasion ... Eh? Russia is currently invading Europe. You may be a bit confused about that one.
- readthenotes1 11mo agoGodspeed!
- mindcrash 11mo agoPlease, please, please go to anywhere EXCEPT the Netherlands. We beg you. We have a gigantic and near unsolvable housing problem. We have thousands of refugees/immigrants with residence permits waiting for housing already (currently stuck in hotels and bungalow parks just to give them a roof over their heads), and we don't even have enough affordable houses for our own. On behalf of everyone in the Netherlands waiting to start a family in their own affordable house, thank you.
- simonsarris 11mo agoCan you talk a bit more about why its viewed as unsolvable?
- mindcrash 11mo agoThe Netherlands pretty much has the most strict carbon regulations in Europe. So while houses could be build, they can't be build because of those. And while those are in place our small country is literally flooded with asylum seekers and our government doesn't seem to care about that (~1000 each week for several years now and those are just the official numbers, https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/publicaties/2025/01/01/asielinstroom-per-week-in-2025 https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/publicaties/2025/01/...). If they get a permit to stay (and most of them do) they get priority access to the already small housing market. So a lot of people who want to start a family in their own house are stuck at the basement or the attic at the house of their parents (either figurative or literally). If someone thinks I am making things up or exaggerating: I was lucky enough to buy the house of my parents before this nightmare started. I bought it for approximately $150k, which is near the actual market price at the time. Somewhere in the next 1-2 years it will probably be valued at least 4 times more (if it isn't already).
- _zagj 11mo agoThere are almost 200 countries on Earth, yet for these types, you could probably count the number of "acceptable" destinations for emigration on one hand. It's like Hasan Piker threatening to leave the US (the country he professed to hate "so f***king much" before electrocuting his dog/prop for daring to move), with his preferred destination being Japan--not his native Turkey, not some avowed communist country like Cuba, Venezuela, or NK, but Japan.
- penguin_booze 11mo agoThe rule applies to all immigrants: leave your rubbish at home. Don't carry it with you to your new host country. In this case, don't turn Europe into America.