8 ms·

Unofficial "Tier 4" Rust Target for older Windows versions

135 points by kristianp 11mo ago

School-Cotton 11mo ago
The idea of running Rust code on Windows 95 is very funny to me. Two completely different universes colliding.
- sedatk 11mo ago
  IIRC, somebody ran .NET on Windows 3.1.
  - lifthrasiir 11mo ago
    I think it was Windows 95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTUMNtKQLl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTUMNtKQLl8
  - userbinator 11mo ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22010159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22010159 3.11, Win32s (so still using 32-bit, not 16-bit code.)
    - sedatk 11mo ago
      Yes, that one!
  - haunter 11mo ago
    The reverse of that is running 16bit Windows 1.x/2.x/3.x apps on 64bit Windows 10/11 https://github.com/otya128/winevdm https://github.com/otya128/winevdm
- wongarsu 11mo ago
  In my mind the most common cases of people running ancient operating systems are computers in control of hardware. Plenty of hardware lasts much longer than 30 years, consequently there's still stuff out there that shipped with Windows 95 and never got new drivers. If you want new software for that environment Rust sounds like a great choice
  - rkagerer 11mo ago
    Indeed. Though these days, some prefer older Windows as the new ones are abjectly worse, along all the axes they care about.
- self_awareness 11mo ago
  Well, there was also Java on Amiga project: https://www.mikekohn.net/micro/amiga_java.php https://www.mikekohn.net/micro/amiga_java.php
vbezhenar 11mo ago
I wish more languages support old platforms. I'm working in a company and a lot of our customers are running Windows 7 and 8, few of them running Vista. I have to use ancient versions of development tools to target those. For example stuck on Java 8 for eternity. It's PITA.
- userbinator 11mo ago
  It's not hard to do either, especially on Windows where backwards-compatibility is almost completely guaranteed. Of course those in the planned obsolescence mindset would fight hard against it, because then it would be harder for us to take the good without the bad.
  - carstenhag 11mo ago
    I really hate my bakery, the buns are only edible for some days, after that, they grow mold! Without sarcasm, it is entirely reasonable that when the OS is EOL by the 1st party, software support for it by 3rd party also ends soon after that.
    - duskdozer 11mo ago
      I think it's more like your gen1 wi-fi enabled Philips screwdriver stops working because it's EOL as opposed to because nobody uses Philps screws anymore. Sometimes it's the latter, but not always.
      - dwattttt 11mo ago
        A more direct analogy is right there; your Phillips head screws cam out more easily than Torx. Everyone who wants screws that don't shred as easily moves to that weird 6 pointed star pattern, and your Phillips head screwdrivers are suddenly EOL'd.
    - tcfhgj 11mo ago
      Unlike buns, software doesn't deteriorate
sanxiyn 11mo ago
An interesting bit of history: for a long time Rust maintained first party support for Windows XP, after other parts of ecosystem generally gave up. This was because Firefox needed it. https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/378 https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/378 (major change proposal to drop Windows XP support) notes this history and links to other relevant pages.
NooneAtAll3 11mo ago
considering the all-insistence of rust on using internet for all the libraries, this doesn't seem like a good idea...
- josephg 11mo ago
  What do you mean? Cargo downloads packages from the internet by default programs do exactly what they’re programmed to do. No more and no less. Just because you’re targeting windows xp doesn’t mean you need to run windows xp to do development.
- sanxiyn 11mo ago
  With cargo --offline, Rust has better than average support for offline build.
- gspr 11mo ago
  What insistence? I do 99% of my Rust development with this ~/.cargo/config.toml: [net] offline = true [source] [source.crates-io] replace-with = "debian" [source.debian] directory = "/usr/share/cargo/registry" Works great.
fithisux 11mo ago
I think this is valueable for efforts like Reactos.
self_awareness 11mo ago
And unofficial "Tier 5" Rust Target is... for Commodore-64: https://github.com/mrk-its/rust-mos https://github.com/mrk-its/rust-mos It works, and builds binaries that are ready to be executed by Vice emulator.
zozbot234 11mo ago
This target might become more viable in the future as Stable Rust adds options to rebuild libstd with custom features as part of building a project.
arka2147483647 11mo ago
For someone who is not a rust programmer, but would like to keep up to date, can somebody tell me what "Tier 4" is. And why must it be quoted?
- the8472 11mo ago
  tiers 1-3 are policies[0] for in-tree targets, so by saying tier 4 they mean one implemented in a fork. Though that kind of skips over targets that can get away with just a custom target spec[1] and not modifying the source. [0] https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/rustc/target-tier-policy.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/rustc/target-tier-policy.html [1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/targets/custom.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/targets/custom.html
- rwaksmunski 11mo ago
  Tier 3 is max official
- chiffaa 11mo ago
  Rust has 3 "platform support" tiers (effectively - guaranteed to work, guaranteed to build, supposed to work). However, these are (obviously) defined only for some of the target triples. This project defines "Tier-4" (which is normally not a thing) unstable support for Windows Vista-and-prior
binaryturtle 11mo ago
And here I'm still trying to get an up-to.date Rust running on my outdated OS X (10.10). No luck (though I may not try hard enough).
- estebank 11mo ago
  I knew I'd seen something along those lines: https://nitter.net/turbolent/status/1617231570573873152 https://nitter.net/turbolent/status/1617231570573873152
seritools 11mo ago
Author here -- previous discussions/blog posts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23313577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23313577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31112273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31112273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37787161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37787161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38810782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38810782
ptspts 11mo ago
Shameless plug: Some of my hobby projects written in C (e.g. https://github.com/pts/bakefat https://github.com/pts/bakefat) can be built reproducibly for Linux >=1.0 (1994), FreeBSD (same ELF executable program file as for Linux) and Win32 working on all versions of Windows (Windows NT 3.1 (1993)--Windows 11). The C compiler (running on Linux i386 and amd64 host) used for the release build is self-contained and included in the project, along with the libc. Doing such backward compatibility is definitiely possible for command-line tools. Once set up, it's automatic, and it needs extra testing after major changes.
anthk 11mo ago
MinC for XP and up: (MinC is not Cygwin, you get cc, ncurses, ksh, git and some goodies). https://minc.commandlinerevolution.nl/english/home.html https://minc.commandlinerevolution.nl/english/home.html IronTCL for XP and up https://minc.commandlinerevolution.nl/english/home.html https://minc.commandlinerevolution.nl/english/home.html Updated SSL/TLS certs, again for XP and beyond: https://legacyupdate.net/ https://legacyupdate.net/ Tiny Pascal-like language targetting DOS, CP/M and Unix: https://t3x.org/t3x/0/index.html https://t3x.org/t3x/0/index.html It's no Free Pascal but it can do good stuff with very little: https://t3x.org/t3x/0/programs.html https://t3x.org/t3x/0/programs.html JimTCL, a tiny TCL with bundled TLS, JSON, Sqlite3 and, optionally, some SDL2 support: https://github.com/msteveb/jimtcl https://github.com/msteveb/jimtcl https://jim.tcl-lang.org/home/doc/www/www/index.html https://jim.tcl-lang.org/home/doc/www/www/index.html You can compile JimTCL with MinC under XP, and maybe T3X0 too. With JimTCL you can build a quick TCL expect clone, some netcat clone too with TLS can be done in minutes too, really good for debugging or to create a simple IRC/Email/Gopher/Gemini client in text mode.
pwdisswordfishy 11mo ago
Can it manage Win32s?

135 points by kristianp 11mo ago

School-Cotton 11mo ago

The idea of running Rust code on Windows 95 is very funny to me. Two completely different universes colliding.

sedatk 11mo ago
IIRC, somebody ran .NET on Windows 3.1.
- lifthrasiir 11mo ago
  I think it was Windows 95: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTUMNtKQLl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTUMNtKQLl8
- userbinator 11mo ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22010159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22010159 3.11, Win32s (so still using 32-bit, not 16-bit code.)
  - sedatk 11mo ago
    Yes, that one!
- haunter 11mo ago
  The reverse of that is running 16bit Windows 1.x/2.x/3.x apps on 64bit Windows 10/11 https://github.com/otya128/winevdm https://github.com/otya128/winevdm
wongarsu 11mo ago
In my mind the most common cases of people running ancient operating systems are computers in control of hardware. Plenty of hardware lasts much longer than 30 years, consequently there's still stuff out there that shipped with Windows 95 and never got new drivers. If you want new software for that environment Rust sounds like a great choice
- rkagerer 11mo ago
  Indeed. Though these days, some prefer older Windows as the new ones are abjectly worse, along all the axes they care about.
self_awareness 11mo ago
Well, there was also Java on Amiga project: https://www.mikekohn.net/micro/amiga_java.php https://www.mikekohn.net/micro/amiga_java.php

vbezhenar 11mo ago

I wish more languages support old platforms. I'm working in a company and a lot of our customers are running Windows 7 and 8, few of them running Vista. I have to use ancient versions of development tools to target those. For example stuck on Java 8 for eternity. It's PITA.

userbinator 11mo ago
It's not hard to do either, especially on Windows where backwards-compatibility is almost completely guaranteed. Of course those in the planned obsolescence mindset would fight hard against it, because then it would be harder for us to take the good without the bad.
- carstenhag 11mo ago
  I really hate my bakery, the buns are only edible for some days, after that, they grow mold! Without sarcasm, it is entirely reasonable that when the OS is EOL by the 1st party, software support for it by 3rd party also ends soon after that.
  - duskdozer 11mo ago
    I think it's more like your gen1 wi-fi enabled Philips screwdriver stops working because it's EOL as opposed to because nobody uses Philps screws anymore. Sometimes it's the latter, but not always.
    - dwattttt 11mo ago
      A more direct analogy is right there; your Phillips head screws cam out more easily than Torx. Everyone who wants screws that don't shred as easily moves to that weird 6 pointed star pattern, and your Phillips head screwdrivers are suddenly EOL'd.
  - tcfhgj 11mo ago
    Unlike buns, software doesn't deteriorate

sanxiyn 11mo ago

An interesting bit of history: for a long time Rust maintained first party support for Windows XP, after other parts of ecosystem generally gave up. This was because Firefox needed it. https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/378 https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/378 (major change proposal to drop Windows XP support) notes this history and links to other relevant pages.

NooneAtAll3 11mo ago

considering the all-insistence of rust on using internet for all the libraries, this doesn't seem like a good idea...

josephg 11mo ago
What do you mean? Cargo downloads packages from the internet by default programs do exactly what they’re programmed to do. No more and no less. Just because you’re targeting windows xp doesn’t mean you need to run windows xp to do development.
sanxiyn 11mo ago
With cargo --offline, Rust has better than average support for offline build.
gspr 11mo ago
What insistence? I do 99% of my Rust development with this ~/.cargo/config.toml: [net] offline = true [source] [source.crates-io] replace-with = "debian" [source.debian] directory = "/usr/share/cargo/registry" Works great.

fithisux 11mo ago

I think this is valueable for efforts like Reactos.

self_awareness 11mo ago

And unofficial "Tier 5" Rust Target is... for Commodore-64: https://github.com/mrk-its/rust-mos https://github.com/mrk-its/rust-mos It works, and builds binaries that are ready to be executed by Vice emulator.

zozbot234 11mo ago

This target might become more viable in the future as Stable Rust adds options to rebuild libstd with custom features as part of building a project.

arka2147483647 11mo ago

For someone who is not a rust programmer, but would like to keep up to date, can somebody tell me what "Tier 4" is. And why must it be quoted?

the8472 11mo ago
tiers 1-3 are policies[0] for in-tree targets, so by saying tier 4 they mean one implemented in a fork. Though that kind of skips over targets that can get away with just a custom target spec[1] and not modifying the source. [0] https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/rustc/target-tier-policy.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/rustc/target-tier-policy.html [1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/targets/custom.html https://doc.rust-lang.org/rustc/targets/custom.html
rwaksmunski 11mo ago
Tier 3 is max official
chiffaa 11mo ago
Rust has 3 "platform support" tiers (effectively - guaranteed to work, guaranteed to build, supposed to work). However, these are (obviously) defined only for some of the target triples. This project defines "Tier-4" (which is normally not a thing) unstable support for Windows Vista-and-prior

binaryturtle 11mo ago

And here I'm still trying to get an up-to.date Rust running on my outdated OS X (10.10). No luck (though I may not try hard enough).

estebank 11mo ago
I knew I'd seen something along those lines: https://nitter.net/turbolent/status/1617231570573873152 https://nitter.net/turbolent/status/1617231570573873152

seritools 11mo ago

Author here -- previous discussions/blog posts: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23313577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23313577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31112273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31112273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37787161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37787161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38810782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38810782

ptspts 11mo ago

Shameless plug: Some of my hobby projects written in C (e.g. https://github.com/pts/bakefat https://github.com/pts/bakefat) can be built reproducibly for Linux >=1.0 (1994), FreeBSD (same ELF executable program file as for Linux) and Win32 working on all versions of Windows (Windows NT 3.1 (1993)--Windows 11). The C compiler (running on Linux i386 and amd64 host) used for the release build is self-contained and included in the project, along with the libc. Doing such backward compatibility is definitiely possible for command-line tools. Once set up, it's automatic, and it needs extra testing after major changes.

anthk 11mo ago

MinC for XP and up: (MinC is not Cygwin, you get cc, ncurses, ksh, git and some goodies). https://minc.commandlinerevolution.nl/english/home.html https://minc.commandlinerevolution.nl/english/home.html IronTCL for XP and up https://minc.commandlinerevolution.nl/english/home.html https://minc.commandlinerevolution.nl/english/home.html Updated SSL/TLS certs, again for XP and beyond: https://legacyupdate.net/ https://legacyupdate.net/ Tiny Pascal-like language targetting DOS, CP/M and Unix: https://t3x.org/t3x/0/index.html https://t3x.org/t3x/0/index.html It's no Free Pascal but it can do good stuff with very little: https://t3x.org/t3x/0/programs.html https://t3x.org/t3x/0/programs.html JimTCL, a tiny TCL with bundled TLS, JSON, Sqlite3 and, optionally, some SDL2 support: https://github.com/msteveb/jimtcl https://github.com/msteveb/jimtcl https://jim.tcl-lang.org/home/doc/www/www/index.html https://jim.tcl-lang.org/home/doc/www/www/index.html You can compile JimTCL with MinC under XP, and maybe T3X0 too. With JimTCL you can build a quick TCL expect clone, some netcat clone too with TLS can be done in minutes too, really good for debugging or to create a simple IRC/Email/Gopher/Gemini client in text mode.

pwdisswordfishy 11mo ago

Can it manage Win32s?