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Hyundai Paywalls Brake Pads replacement on Ioniq 5 N
- GuestFAUniverse 1y ago"...satisfying handle..." I detest that sentiment. The brake handles I had to use sooner or later were too soft, no matter the maintenance. So, I started to pull as strong as possible because otherwise the cars weren't standing still on steep hills -- I never had that issue with electric parking brakes; I love that.
- bob1029 1y agoMy problem with the EPB is that it seems to encourage drivers to simply not use it. The convenience of a zero effort digital switch disconnects the user from the physical reality of the vehicle's heft. I've had to instruct several family members and friends to engage their parking brake when on my very steep driveway. We had to shove a car up the hill to get it out of park one time. Leaving 2 tons of car resting entirely on the parking pawl can cause trouble. I always lecture drivers to let the brake take the load before putting transmission into park (or a low gear). It can be challenging to do this with digital everything.
- netsharc 1y agoDon't EPBs get applied automatically? I have a 2020 car, if I turn off the engine it goes to Park and engages the EPB.
- tehwebguy 1y agoNot on our ’21 Honda
- nmeofthestate 1y agoMine (Civic '19) applies it if your seatbelt is fastened when you turn off the motor. Otherwise it doesn't. I think there's a "don't do automatic stuff unless the driver is wearing their seatbelt" rule.
- wkjagt 1y agoMy 2020 Hyundai Ioniq EV doesn't do this. It's a separate button.
- cenamus 1y agoAnd manual parking brakes aren't really wonders of mechanical simplicity anyway
- toxik 1y agoThey're actually really simple? Two wedge-shaped brake shoes that cam into the inner diameter of the wheel.
- cenamus 1y agoMore not easy to servicd if they seized and you can disassemble half the car to get to all the cables and so on
- cartoonworld 1y agoYou can almost always pop the cable (if you have to) and hit the rotor with a hammer, or use a puller. If that doesn't work you hit it with a hammer from the other side until the parking brake shoes pop out of the pins and come off with the rotor.
- somat 1y agoThe real magic/genius are trailer brakes, they are electric right, however if they worked the way you would naively assume an electric brake would work, directly operating on the friction surface with an electric solenoid, It would take a huge solenoid and the amperage requirements would quickly exceed what the trailer wiring can provide. so what they do is apply an electromagnet which starts to drag on the side of rotating wheel assembly it uses this drag to push the friction surfaces together, so it takes a surprisingly small magnet to run. most of the force comes from the rotating wheel.
- meindnoch 1y agoThat's the "self-applying" property of drum brakes. Not specific to trailer brakes.
- userbinator 1y agotoo soft, no matter the maintenance That sounds like they weren't adjusted correctly.
- westmeal 1y agoYou might just need to adjust the brakes in the back. Usually there is an equalizer with a nut you can tighten for it to lock the rear better.
- GuestFAUniverse 1y agoI don't need to. I pay others. EPB: no such issue. Period.
- Lanolderen 1y agoCables need replacement sometimes but I prefer the manual ones. It's really useful for turning in winter, it's fun and I trust it a lot more as an emergency brake. I've tried a Model 3 ebrake in motion once at 30-40 kmh and it locked up the rear instantly. Manual ones I can regulate so they don't lock or even let go a little if they do since they're not a button.
- AngryData 1y agoYou should be able to make a mechanical parking brake as tight as you want, although I wouldn't put it past manufacturers to make the parking brake cable have fixed ends which would make tightening them impossible except by replacing the cable which will just stretch again after use, hence why they should be adjustable to start with.
- k4rli 1y ago[flagged]
- apparent 1y agoThe Ionic 5 N is not for "car-ignorant people". It's a high-performance car that has some pretty great reviews among professional reviewers. That doesn't mean it isn't impossible to repair by yourself, but I'd bet that most people who buy this vehicle are enthusiasts (it's quite a bit more expensive than the base, and the differentiation isn't aesthetic).
- timschmidt 1y ago> Hyundai is a complete joke. 4th largest vehicle manufacturer in the world by sales volume[1]. Are you telling us you're in charge of one of the top three? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#By_manufacturer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#By_manufac...
- photios 1y ago[flagged]
- LightBug1 1y agoAbsolute nonsense. I'd take the ioniq 5 (preferably N model) over anything any other car manufacturer is making right now (excluding China).
- speedgoose 1y agoYou do that, I take the Renault R5 Turbo 3e.
- LightBug1 1y agoDidn't even know that existed. Pretty bad ass. I'll take the 5N though with a price for us mere mortals.
- swiftcoder 1y agoThe first time I had a flat on an electric Kia, the guy at the local garage and I spent 20 minutes figuring out how to disengage the parking brake. In the end, he did the wheel change with the car powered on, as that's the only mode where one can disengage the electronic parking brake...
- nandomrumber 1y agoHow is it that the park brake needs to be disengaged to swap a wheel. Genuinely curious, as that isn’t the case for any of my ICE vehicles.
- apeters 1y agoA few years ago I used to help my father replace wheels in his car shop. The lift was rather small and you couldn't get out of the car easily when you placed the car in the correct position for the lift's arms. We placed the car about a meter from the correct position, got out, pushed it forward and placed the arms. For this to work you need to make sure the parking brakes are not engaged.
- nandomrumber 1y agoThis isn’t an answer to the question I asked.
- Etheryte 1y agoMaybe I'm missing something obvious, why did you need to disengage the parking brake? You can change a wheel with the brake on, in fact I don't think I've ever done it with the brake off?
- gloxkiqcza 1y agoDoesn’t really surprise me. I remember reading the article linked below from which I quote: > Forced to raise their game, carmakers are only now realizing they cannot repeat past mistakes such as letting others build up parts and services businesses off the back of their core product. "They stole the business from us," Martinet says, referencing as an example windshield replacement companies. "So I don't want them to steal the next one." Xavier Martinet is the President and CEO of Hyundai Motor Europe. https://www.wired.com/story/the-global-car-reckoning-is-here-auto-companies-dont-have-a-plan/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-global-car-reckoning-is-here...
- RobotToaster 1y agoThe amount of entitlement in that statement is almost impressive.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- hopelite 1y agoThat’s generally the outcome in abusive relationships.
- PunchyHamster 1y agoIt takes years, decades of practice even.
- hexbin010 1y agoNah a lot of are just born psychopaths
- TheCapeGreek 1y agoAnd thus one of the historically most reliable manufacturers is also enshittified? Damn.
- 1y ago
- LightBug1 1y agoHyundai have really come on in great strides in recent years. Particularly with their focus on trying to cater for actual drivers, instead of the rest of the bunch focusing on screens. So I'll give them a lot of latitude to put this right. But, they do need to put this right.
- Simulacra 1y agoFyi actual title "Replacing Brake Pads on a Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Requires a Professional Mechanic’s Login" This article feels like half the story. Is this only a repair you can get done at a Hyundai dealer, or can you take it to any shop? Ostensibly that shop must have the Hyundai equipment, requiring you to purchase an expensive piece of equipment, so even technically this completely fails right to repair. And I don't think car dealers are explaining this when they sell you the vehicle. You don't realize until you take it in for service that you may need to buy a subscription for brake pads, or pay through the nose if you go to another shop because the equipment is expensive. If anything, this is a very blinking, loud, and glaring sign above Hyundai cars: DO NOT BUY.
- mkayokay 1y agoAFAIK most cars with electric parking breaks need to be set into a special maintenance mode either via OBD-2 or a special in-car procedure to be able to change the pads. Otherwise the breaks Pistons just push together and leave no room for the new pads. At least that is what my 2015 VW would do. But every shop around here has that Software or knowledge. So Hyundai just upped the game and put some subscription into their service software. Definitely not a consumer friendly move, as changing pads and even disks is not that hard.
- hopelite 1y agoIt seems like this may be a good opportunity for someone interested in cars to make a site that evaluates especially EV vehicles for their various tricks and traps like this OP story to hold manufacturers’ feet to the fire, so things like subscription or unlock charges and DLC nonsense is not spread and normalized. I don’t want to give them any ideas, but I would prefer if we avoided things like having to buy blinker credits do you don’t end up pulled over off found at fault in an accident because you ran out of credits to use your blinker. I for one would love to know if a manufacturer requires expensive hidden costs for services that amount to vendor lock-in. It seems like yet another industry moving into the scammy business model like airlines and hotels, where the prices they show you are never they price you pay.
- prmoustache 1y ago
- chubs 1y agoI believe this is already what happens with Volkswagen - recently I had my brakes replaced by an independent mechanic, and they had to charge me $50ish for some software lock as part of the process.
- rounce 1y agoDisabling and then reenabling the EPB is part of doing a rear brake job not some optional extra, very cheeky (IMHO) to charge extra for that. It's also possible to do it without a VAGCOM tool, but requires removing the EPB motor so the piston can be pushed back and then manually turning the motor to the disengaged position so that it can be refitted.
- userbinator 1y agoUnplug the actuator and power it directly to release the brake? Or is the interface to it also somehow DRM'd?
- karolist 1y agoYou needed software to replace rear brake pads on Audis with electronic parking brake since about 2004 or whenever they introduced C6. It's not a big deal and could be done with VAG-com, but that means any small garage with mechanic who can just turn nuts and bolts won't be able to do it. > https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-s6-c6-platform-discussion-58/brake-pads-vag-com-tool-need-change-rear-brakes-2607138 https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-s6-c6-platform-discussio... "Yes. You need vag to disable the electronic parking brake in the rear. The piston cannot be pressed into the caliper if the park brake is not disabled. "
- kotaKat 1y agoThis "secure gateway" shit is already tiring. Started with FCA/Stellantis in 2018+, thanks to the Jeep "hack" through the infotainment system. They slapped a "secure gateway" on the CANbus you had to authenticate through. They then took that system, refined it into "AutoAuth", an "independent" authority that controls access to the SGWs for "automakers". AutoAuth is for FCA, Stellantis, and some new Nissans (apparently the 2020+ Sentra?). VW and Mercedes also have their own "secure gateway" bullshit as well. -- As for this Hyundai situation, there is a workaround. Unfortunately, it's the "more expensive" option. People are using J2534 "passthrough" dongle devices to work with automotive service software. J2534 is an SAE standard for ECU programming, and thus there's a large market of cheap and expensive dongles to interface with OE software that allows J2534 "generic" access to program modules. That's what Hyundai is protecting with the NASTF login. If you spent even more money and bought a genuine Hyundai vehicle communications interface (VCI) pod, you could have just used the normal Hyundai GDS and accessed all the brake service functions instead of the "lower cost" J2534 generic access. It'd slide right past the NASTF stuff, and the only time you'd even be asked for NASTF is actually touching the immobilizer. All of this at the end of the day is because cheap-ass scan tools can, with the right software, be a one-click Kia Boyz solution to perform an "all keys lost" procedure, program in a new transponder key, and run off with your car.
- bluGill 1y agoThey legally have to make diagnostic and repair information available to third parties. the law is complex and settup for independant shops but if it is really this bad expect the courts to intervien.
- constantcrying 1y agoDid you read the article? The only thing which stopped the replacement is a professional mechanic certification. The law works exactly as designed. Independent shops have the ability to service these cars without any problems, even the hardware mentioned is not a problem, since it works with all cars following the standard.
- RedShift1 1y agoI think I'm gonna keep my by now 13 year old car for a LONG time. Nothing is locked down, no complicated gearbox, no electronic parking brake, no remote control, no subscriptions, plenty of room in the engine bay (can even swap utility belt rollers without having to take out the radiator), and it's all mine and nobody else's. Yes it will cost in maintenance but at least I can at least work on it myself if need be without a computer. And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it.
- uxp100 1y ago> And by now the car is unattractive anyway, nobody is going to steal it so I don't need to worry too much about it. Think you’ve got that backwards. Typically it is older cars that get stolen. 13 years old is new enough it should be harder to steal, but for joyriding or as a vehicle for doing other crimes the thieves are not looking for a new car.
- imglorp 1y agoThis definitely resonates, for all old cars designed to be maintained with simple tools and common parts. That said, I have (lease) an Ionic 5 and it's the best freaking car I've ever driven by a mile. Some of the features on these things should have been on ICE cars a decade ago -- they're not unique to EVs -- but car companies thrive on product stagnation until someone raises the bar and they're forced to "me too".
- dzhiurgis 1y agoLatest full size Kia/Hyundai hybrid Tellurides added a lot of these features - namely remote/scheduled heating/cooling.
- dzonga 1y agoor buy a Toyota / Lexus. you gonna pay for it either new or brand-new but they don't have that kinda nonsense. my only gripe with toyota | lexus is they keep raising prices yet offering the same product year in year out cz they know people looking for a reliable car don't really have alternatives.
- imiric 1y agoPart of the reason why I don't want to buy/drive a car are stories like this. They're practically locked-down computers on wheels, where the manufacturer is in full control of every operational aspect of the machine. The consumer/driver are merely given a choice of how they want to reach their destination, and I suspect even that will eventually be taken away, as we move towards full autonomy and vehicle-as-a-service models. Is there such a thing as an open source vehicle? Or some approximation of that? Are there manufacturers that are more open to this than others? I realize that giving full control over a 2-ton speeding machine to users might not be the best idea, but surely there is some middle ground here. Or is the only option to buy/use cars built before the "smart" era?
- westmeal 1y agoWell pretty much any car before 2005 came with manuals and have large aftermarket support assuming it's not something mega niche. If you want control of the engine and you want to wire literally everything yourself check out speeduino and learn how an ICE works. I run my old Corvette with it.
- jesprenj 1y agoYou rarely got servicr manuals for free, ever. DIYers could however buy 3rd party service manuals, for example those made by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haynes_Manual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haynes_Manual
- PunchyHamster 1y agoyeah but most of those that I wanted rusted away or cost new car price
- userbinator 1y agoIs there such a thing as an open source vehicle? Or some approximation of that? Mid-century domestics. You can buy almost all the parts of one from the aftermarket, as long as it has 8 cylinders and is RWD.
- ZiiS 1y agoMy 2010 VW also needs a VCDS license to do this?
- potato3732842 1y agoI said this last time and was able to confirm it in the interim. You can just wind it forward and back with a 12v probe. The parking brake system (as most do these days) senses amperage draw so just get it close and you'll be fine. This isn't a hurdle for "real shops" or DIYers. It's a hurdle for Jiffy Lube type shops that can't make having teenagers poke around with test probes official procedure.
- technothrasher 1y agoYep, I've used this method of just putting +12V on the connector pin several times when my Autel tool didn't support the car I was working on.
- PunchyHamster 1y agosssssshhhhh or the next version gonna be CAN bus and with device serial paired to the car
- potato3732842 1y agoThis isn't a new thing. A bunch of cars with electric parking brakes already have this service situation. A lot of mechanics don't even look in software and probe them regardless because fuck getting out your scan tool, groping around in the footwell, plugging in, cycling through menus, trying not to get anything dirty in the process, etc, etc, all for something that can be done from the wheel well where the brake job is already being performed.
- foxyv 1y agoYou just make a tool that plugs into the wiring harness which does it for you. Then Jiffy Lube can sell it to all the Jiffy Lube franchises for $400. (It's really just a small 12 volt lithium battery and a switch lol.)
- andy99 1y agoI’ll never buy an electric car because of this stuff, as mentioned elsewhere car companies see it as a way to gouge the customer. People who want to push for EV adoption would be well served pushing for open standards, right to repair, interoperability etc to people can buy an encumbered car that’s actually for them and not just a “vehicle” for companies to screw them (the way basically every product is now).
- mmikeff 1y agoThe car in this example is electric but the problem is not confined to electric cars.
- tialaramex 1y agoYeah, this is part of a larger pattern of car manufacturers being awful and it didn't start with EVs and if they were to magically vanish tomorrow it wouldn't end. I actually would go further and say that that the existing choice to require that only some people can change lock codes is part of the problem here even though the reporter can't be expected to know that. For hardware locks it was only practical to attempt physical access control. The only guy who can buy the weird blanks for this high end key with moving magnets inside it has a Locksmith business, so he's probably not going to also be a burglar, life is just too short. But for electronic locks we can just choose to design the software to allow the keyholder to change what they want and only require authorization when you do not have a key - so as to allow dealers to e.g. unlock a legitimately seized vehicle and give it to a new owner.
- maxerickson 1y agoPlenty of vehicles will have a simple procedure for disabling automatic engagement of the brake. Unfortunately, most people don't care about this stuff, so the companies that don't do it don't really pay a penalty.
- constantcrying 1y agoDid you read the article? The standards are there and the interoperability works. The only thing which remains is that Hyundai is locking features for professionals only. None of this is EV specific by the way.
- alistairSH 1y agoBMW has done something similar for battery replacement for years. I think at-home coding of batteries is now available, but wasn’t originally. And still requires an OBD programmer.
- sokoloff 1y agoRequiring an OBD2 programmer seems totally fine to me, just as requiring a 10mm socket and wrench is.
- alistairSH 1y agoIt’s not a simple OBD scanner. You need BMW software running on a laptop. The software is available online (not sure if it’s a reverse-engineered hack or pirated).
- xnyan 1y agoYou need specific software that can cost thousands of dollars if obtained legally, but it's not really the bad part. Essentially anything on the CAN bus has to have it's cryptographic signature put on the ECU's whitelist of approved signatures, or it cannot be used. This can only be done with the blessing of BMW, who sells the privilege to 3rd party repair shops. There are some hardware workarounds in some cases like spoofing auth with a 3rd party device permanently attached to the CANBUS, or desoldering and manipulating the chips used by the ECU for storage, but it's a massive hassle.
- xethos 1y agoSnap-On is known for nice, warrantied-for-life, but incredibly expensive tools. A 10mm socket is $40, a 10mm wrench is $58. The cheapest OBD-II reader one can use with the Hyundai, per TFA, is ~$800, and Hyundai's required-for-this-job software subscription is $60/week. Needing tools is fine, but the cost is ballooning, and the ladder for starting work at home, and learning, is being pulled up. Sure, one needs tools
- spockz 1y agoThis is par for the course on traction batteries. You need official dealer software to dial them in. My VW Passat hybrid did not even let me change the cooling fluid myself because it is also used to cool the battery. In fact anything remotely tied to the high voltage battery is not user serviceable, and dealers are only allowed to replace instead of repair. And this car is from 2015 so the enshittification started there already.
- mastazi 1y agoWhat's roughly the period when this kind of shenanigans started being common among major automakers? I'm not a car guy and thinking about a used car soon[1], Not sure how far back I should go in terms of year. I am in Australia BTW. [1] would be family's 2nd car. We have another recent car with all the online crap, I hate it
- potato3732842 1y agoGet a blindfold and throw a dart. You're talking about a +/-15yr range depending on the OEM and the product line in question. Some random Suzuki on a platform that they're dearth to refresh and that primarily garners 3rd world sales is gonna grow "fuck you pay me" features a lot later than a 4Runner, or whatever else 200k+ households buy when they pop out a kid these days. You need to do your research on a per model basis, generalizations won't help unless you're familiar enough with how that OEM does things to take an educated guess in which case you probably don't need the generalization in the first place.
- muzika 1y agoThis has nothing to do with EVs, and likely all new Hyundais do (or will?) use this same diagnostic system. For comparison, Teslas do not require purchase of their software for basic maintenance, the service mode that is accessible to the user is amazing, has so many diagnostics tools available for free. Oh and by the way, from my experience Teslas don’t ever need brake pads replaced unless you are taking the car to the track. I suspect the same is true for most other EVs.
- m463 1y agoTesla was locked down for a long time. The service manuals were only made available in the beginning to people living in new hampshire (?) I believe you have to own a car and log in to access all of this stuff.
- giantg2 1y agoElectronic parking brakes are so stupid. They offer no real value and eliminate the ability to safely use a secondary brake in an emergency.
- foofoo12 1y agoNot to mention the cool handbrake turn when you're a teenager.
- Daneel_ 1y agoAs I once heard: when the lever pops, the panties drop. Not my classiest comment, but I figured someone would get a chuckle from it.
- mannykannot 1y agoI had not thought much about it until now, but when I did, I guessed it was a cost-cutting move, as it seems to piggyback on equipment needed for other features (principally ABS). Now that you've mentioned it, I'm wondering if the auto manufacturers needed to get a bunch of regulators to drop secondary/emergency braking requirements in order to do this?
- giantg2 1y agoMy guess is they implemented whoever they felt like and the regulations only require a "parking" brake, but don't talk about implementation.
- jesprenj 1y agoOn my peugeot 5008, pressing the electronic parkong brake button for more than cca 500ms while driving fully engages all brakes of the car (not only rear ones), but ABS remains functional. So in an emergency, one could theoretically still use this as an emergency brake. Although I agree that it's quite dumb, because it of course wouldn't work in case of computer/electric failure. What a shame indeed.
- 1y ago
- FridayoLeary 1y ago>At this point, after spending about $2,000 on tools, you should be able to service your own Hyundai Ioniq brakes, but if you’re a DIYer, you still can’t. This is unacceptable. Another commenter has pointed out the unbelievable level of entitlelment of the current boss of hyundai. China is rapidly eroding the sales of established manufacturers. They in turn are tapping in to a new cash cow and i'm not even sure it won't work for them at least in the short term. To clarify one thing brake disks need much less replacing on electric vehicles, which means it will hurt consumers less.
- ReptileMan 1y agoSeems like a time for some regulations about what levels of repairability and interoperability products must have.
- constantcrying 1y agoDid you read the article? It specifically mentions that the car is based on a standard for maintenance tasks and that the sole reason why the maintenance could not be performed was because of a lack of certification as a professional mechanic.
- ReptileMan 1y agoI did. And there are roadblocks to repairability put by manufacturer.
- RickJWagner 1y agoI’ve done small automotive tasks for years. Oil changes, brakes, a radiator. As I get older, I’m sure I’ll pay instead. But I feel the ladder is being drawn up— my young adult kids won’t have much of a choice. The shade tree mechanic life is becoming a thing of the past.
- blargthorwars 1y agoIt's gotten easier, frankly, nowadays, because 95% of the time there's a YouTube video to walk you through. My 16-year-old did a complete front brake service that way. The only thing I had to help with was pumping the brakes for the bleed.
- djoldman 1y agoIt's possible to do this without disabling the brake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzxYdB-LBB0&t=220s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzxYdB-LBB0&t=220s
- chiph 1y agoIf you have access to the wiring diagrams, I have seem people apply 12v to the correct pins to reverse the motor, moving the piston back from the rotor.
- potato3732842 1y agoYou don't need a diagram when confronted with a necessarily reversible motor and a 2-pin connector....
- chiph 1y agoSome have position sensors built in (so the computer knows where things are). But yes - if you only have 2 pins it's self-explanatory.
- 0x_rs 1y agoThis is increasingly many cars, starting minimum in the past decade and an half, and not limited to EVs. It's definitely something you need to research before purchasing one so you can dodge the worst offenders. Automotive engineering has been a clown show for years, and greatly suffered from becoming too reliant on digital technology without being willing to invest and spend for robust systems, going for low-cost, low-quality, proprietary parts made in small numbers and unique to each production run. The traditional expectations that you could have options in regards to your vehicle being serviced are on their way out without consumers doing something about it. A future where only the manufacturer and its authorized shops can perform maintenance means they can set any price for it, a price that's already been skyrocketing, and that would effectively allow them to collect far more revenue than previously possible.. and if you can't extract value from customers through heated seats and high-beam subscriptions, maybe you can just have their cars full of black boxes break down more often?
- Eddy_Viscosity2 1y agoHeavy dystopian vide here. How long will they go full out with in-vehicle transactions, like charging a small fee each time you use the brake, or roll down a window.
- potato3732842 1y agoIf I were a betting man I'd bet that the electrician/plumber/hvac lobbies will get their respective fixtures locked down (in a similar way to a lot of automotive stuff is currently) so you need to pay someone with a license to use them before we get microtransactions in vehicles. As much as all these industries would love to make pennies here and there, they all loathe the idea that people can do things without giving them a cut even more.
- jeffalyanak 1y agoCorporations will do anything they can get away with. Without consumer-friendly regulation I don't really see why all corporations _wouldn't_ eventually do this type of thing in markets like this.
- mystraline 1y agoI am NOT a "consumer". Those just buy buy buy, the same way locusts devour everything. I am a "customer". I think about purchases, research if its sufficient, and will actively walk away if the deal is garbage. At this time, all electric cars seem to be a DRM ridden hellscape, and/or a surveillance platform on wheels, and/or 100% remote control by mothership, and/or subscription hellscape (heated seats, better battery). I'll take my ICE mostly mechanical cars thankyouverymuch, as they are more repairable.
- jeffalyanak 1y agoOkay, semantics aside, companies will not make things more repairable if they aren't required to do so.
- doctaj 1y agoYou’re still a consumer, though. A single locust doesn’t wipe out thousands of acres on its own — it’s the swarm of individuals all buying (eating) “only what they need”.
- mystraline 1y ago"No u" isn't a valid argument here. I'm following the body of capitalist thought, as you can see here: https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/consumer-vs-customer https://uk.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/consu... They are demonstrably very different. And from a 10000 foot view, consumers are reactionary and impulsive and easier to control. Customers are the ones who give thought in how they purchase.
- Tadpole9181 1y agoWhat's your point?
- kylehotchkiss 1y agoStuff like this makes me hope more and more that my 4Runner actually lasts forever. Trying to read through several perspectives. Does Korea not value DIY repairs on cars? Is the world so litigious now that a carmaker would be sued for a poorly executed DIY fix?
- ChrisArchitect 1y agoPreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45893991 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45893991
- pengaru 1y agoRIP hyundai, you're dead to me