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> they failed to make phones that are convenient to carry. I loved the iPhone SE and small phones generally, but at the same time I realize Apple's not failing
by crazygringo 1y ago
> they failed to make phones that are convenient to carry.
I loved the iPhone SE and small phones generally, but at the same time I realize Apple's not failing at anything. They're giving the market the size people actually want. The smaller phones don't sell nearly as well. Most people prefer a bigger phone even if carrying it is less convenient.
I've just accepted my phone will be bulky now, so I double down and attach a magnetic wallet to it, and carry it in my hand or jacket pocket or bag rather than my pants pocket like I used to. During meetings it lies on the table rather then in my pants pocket. C'est la vie.
- fxtentacle 1y ago"iPhone 16e Sales Lag Behind SE Models" Ooops ? https://www.macrumors.com/2025/06/03/iphone-16e-sales-lag-behind-se-models/ https://www.macrumors.com/2025/06/03/iphone-16e-sales-lag-be... Looks like the market did like the SE size.
- masklinn 1y ago> Unsurprisingly, the primary reason identified for the iPhone 16e 's weaker debut is its higher launch price. Adjusting for inflation, the SE (€479 in 2020) was €588 and the SE2 (€519 in 2022) was €567. The 16e is 699, a 25% increase.
- fxtentacle 1y agoAnd in Germany, the iPhone 16e 128GB in white currently sells for €537 at "Netto Marken-Discount", a supermarket chain famous for its low price. "Marken-Discount" = "brand name rebates"
- masklinn 1y agoThat is utterly worthless without knowing what the SE and SE2 were sold for in the same context. The 16e's MSRP in germany is 699.
- i_am_jl 1y agoSmall phones (to an extent) are less expensive than larger phones to manufacture. The thought that "Small phones are only more popular because they're less expensive" seems to willfully ignore that the phones are less expensive because their inputs are less expensive, because they're smaller.
- frereubu 1y agoI wonder about the idea that they're less expensive. True in terms of materials, but possibly not true if the smaller production run means you can't offset the capital costs of manufacturing the parts.
- i_am_jl 1y agoThat's fair. I suspect that as phones get more "premium" the margin from a small phone shrinks faster than a larger phone. HTC has been making cheap (very cheap) and small phones for the discount market. Foldables exist in the premium space, but the price tags appear to bake in a higher margin for a device that won't sell the same volume.
- mattgreenrocks 1y agoIMO the e series is/could be used as an anchor to ratchet other phones higher in price.
- gruez 1y ago>Looks like the market did like the SE size. That's not a compelling argument when the same chart also shows the iPhone SE 2022 lagging behind iPhone SE 2020, even though they have identical form factors.
- fxtentacle 1y agoGood point. Thx.
- nehal3m 1y agoSure, but between the SE2020 and the SE2022 was the iPhone 12 line-up which included the 12 Mini
- layer8 1y agoWhen the SE2022 came out, most people preferring smaller iPhones were already using either an SE or a mini, and the SE2022 didn’t offer much compelling reasons to upgrade from an SE2020. The SE2020, on the other hand, launched before the first mini, and after four years of waiting since the SE1.
- Retric 1y agoWhile small iPhones don’t sell nearly as well as larger sizes, I suspect they are still a very profitable product as Apple keeps releasing them.
- crazygringo 1y agoNot small like they used to be. Not like the original SE, nowhere even close. The options now are basically big, bigger and biggest.
- mrweasel 1y agoThe iPhone sales figures where probably a disappointment, for Apple. Had it been released by any other company it would have been viewed as a huge success. The sales numbers are just pretty poor, for an iPhone. I think Apple has such high expectation to sales figures that even if a smaller iPhone comes in, even as the 10th best selling phone, that's maybe only 5% of all iPhone sales. Massively successful as a phone, millions of people bought it, but to Apple, the SE is a side hustle at best. My daughters friends made fun of my iPhone SE3, they had never seen a phone that small.
- robertoandred 1y agoHuh? They haven’t released a remotely small phone in years.
- Retric 1y agoThere was a 4 year gap between the iPhone SE1 and iPhone SE2, it’s been less than 4 years since the SE3. It’s not clear if they decided to move just add E models to their lineup, or given up on SE models entirely.
- layer8 1y agoIt’s very clear that the “e” is a yearly model (that’s why it has a number) and has replaced the SE line.
- 1y ago
- mattgreenrocks 1y agoWhat “the market wants” is a maximally addictive device. It’s a really low bar even if highly profitable. Bigger screens make it more exciting and addictive. Just profoundly weird to me that small manufacturers can’t make small phones because they’re small and can’t pay for it, and large manufacturers can’t make it because…(checks notes)…they’re large and don’t want to pay for it even if there’s demand.
- MichaelZuo 1y agoCan you write down the actual detailed argument? Just opining that it’s weird can’t possibly be convincing against a consensus amongst all the large smartphone manufacturers.
- cantor_S_drug 1y agoCan Apple lock-in those people who definitely want small phones by some prepaid arrangements which the users can't back out? That would be market working. Is there a reason why they don't do this?
- crazygringo 1y agoThat's a weird take. Large screens aren't primarily more "addictive", they're primarily more productive. They work as a better e-reader, a better text editor, better for watching a movie on a plane, better for reading maps, I could go on and on. (And if a company were incentivized to truly make an "addicting" phone, it would be Meta that would benefit from the social media ads, or TikTok. Not Apple.) Large manufacturers can make them. But there isn't enough demand to make them profitable enough. It's not a question of whether they "want to pay for it", it's just simple economics. They're businesses, not charities. I like small phones, but I understand manufacturers are doing what's economically rational given market preferences and I don't blame them for it.
- jermaustin1 1y ago> they're primarily more productive. But why are we needing a phone to be productive? And they were already a distraction from the world around us when they fit in a single hand. I know I'm probably abnormal, but my phone is a phone first, camera second, and "work" device fifth. As a society, our boundaries around communication and instant contact to anyone have collapsed. Now if you don't respond to a message within a few minutes, you get multiple follow ups. If you don't pick up the phone when a friend calls you, they don't leave a message, they text, then call again, then text again. We've gone from being able to leave the house, and no one can contact us for a few hours, to no matter where we are people are trying to contact us. So they may be more "productive" with larger screens, but we never asked whether they SHOULD be more productive.
- the_gipsy 1y agoMind that there is also a feedback loop: applications only work correctly on bigger phone screens.
- layer8 1y agoThat’s not completely correct. In particular, the mini resolution corresponds to the Display Zoom options on current iPhones, so applications are still expected to support them, not to mention that iOS will support the mini models for 2-3 more years to come. In addition, the outer screen of next year’s iPhone Fold will be shorter than the mini, so applications really need to be flexible here.
- jama211 1y agoThey might technically support them, but no one tests them properly and they’re certainly not a good user experience. I’ve personally made apps where I have never tested them on such zoom levels if I’m perfectly honest.
- layer8 1y agoIt isn’t always great, but I haven’t encountered anything unusable yet. The SE1 is more of a problem nowadays.
- the_gipsy 1y agoI don't understand anything of what you're saying. But I do know that it was quite noticeable that most applications expect a bigger screen on small iPhones. Most UI elements are either too small and hard to use, or taking away too much space feom elsewhere. There's nothing you can do with scaling here, if apps are made for big screens. It is a feedback loop. It would require a whole new ecosystem to break out by now. Impossible.
- yapyap 1y agoCan’t really want a smaller modern iPhone if no one is selling it.
- hshdhdhj4444 1y agoFoldables…
- threetonesun 1y agoIs it too big as a phone/SMS device? Yes. But as long as it's smaller than an equivalent digital camera or handheld gaming device or portable GPS it's still appropriately sized for how I mostly use it.
- layer8 1y agoIt’s not appropriately sized for one-handed use, unless you have large hands.
- jama211 1y agoLife with modern large smartphones gets a lot easier if you just give up on the one handed use paradigm. I use my devices during the day mostly hands free via where I can for passive stuff like setting timers or listening to podcasts, or controlled via my smart watch. I’m only pulling out my actual phone because I want to use an app, type a whole ass email, or google something in a web browser. I accept I just use two hands for that and then put it away again. If anything it keeps me from picking it up unless I want to use it properly, which isn’t such a bad thing.
- layer8 1y agoIt’s not just one-handed use, but also pocketability and lower weight, which just feels nice. I have no trouble using apps. The iPhone mini still has a few years of life left, so I’m not in a hurry to change.
- threetonesun 1y agoDepends what you're using it for. Typing? I agree, it's not, although I'd argue the original wasn't either, but other people thought the original was too small. However as a camera? With the new camera button position it works pretty fine with just one hand. As a thing you tap and while it's in a mount? Also an appropriate size for one handed use.
- jama211 1y ago
- thesuitonym 1y agoMaybe there's room in the world for a device people want, even if it's not the device the majority want? I mean I know Apple is just a small startup company with only a $4 trillion valuation, but maybe they could just do one thing that isn't maximally profitable once in a while.
- ntoskrnl_exe 1y ago>maybe they could just do one thing that isn't maximally profitable once in a while. They tried that this year and called it iPhone Air
- actionfromafar 1y agoRight, forgot to mention it should also be somewhat practical.
- frereubu 1y agoI get you're referring to the profitability, but the iPhone Air is just thin, not small, which is where this conversation started.
- kridsdale1 1y agoI bought a Pro Max for myself and an Air for my wife, who had a Mini before. The Air is DAMN SMALL. You really should try holding it. Yes the 2D dimensions are as large as a normal modern phone but it’s hardly there otherwise. It’s a good compromise. I’d want it myself but I shoot ProRes Video.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- jml78 1y agoBased on sales of the air, it won’t be around in future years.
- 1y ago
- BeFlatXIII 1y ago> They're giving the market the size people actually want. Some people clear still want those small phones, just not enough for Apple's profit margins.
- jama211 1y agoConsidering the sheer ramp up for manufacturing at the scale of iphone sales, and how unpopular tiny phones are, it’s completely understandable they’re not interested in catering to the < 1% of users they’d gain by making a small phone. You have to remember lost sales only truely include people who literally leave the platform or never upgrade again instead of just grumbling and buying the new phone anyway.
- torstenvl 1y agoWhat ramp up? It's been less than a year since they discontinued the SE 2022. Apple could have kept improving the CPU and camera and not much else and would have had a steady stream of income from those of us who want to use our actual pockets (not a weird swaddle) to carry our phones. The iPhone SE accounted for 5-12% of the market, depending on year. The iPhone mini accounted for about 5%. Let's conservatively call it 13%. Apple had iPhone revenue of $205bn in 2022. The average smaller iPhone is about .5-.67 the cost of a flagship model. So fuzzy math, but .13 * .5 * 205000000000 = a $1.3bn market for iPhones you can use with one hand. Thats nothing to sneeze at. Way more of a market than something like a Magic Trackpad.
- jama211 1y agoApple is making like 100bn a quarter. 102.4bn last quarter to be exact. 1.3bn in a whole year is indeed something for apple to sneeze at. And the ramp up is to design and organise manufacture of a whole new phone line. They also would likely have received a hit in sales in general if they didn’t upgrade the design as people would feel insulted and also it would stick out like an ignored pig in the lineup, which isn’t good for apples brand either. The truth is, you’d likely make the same decision if you were CEO, especially if you have to justify it to shareholders.
- nvllsvm 1y ago> They're giving the market the size people actually want. No - call it what it is. They are catering to the largest market segments and ignoring the smaller segments who desire smaller phones. Reasoning as to why is another thing, but it doesn't negate the existence of the segment who does want one.
- rootusrootus 1y agoMuch like there is a segment of the population who wants a brown diesel station wagon.
- wffurr 1y agoWith wood paneling!
- unsigner 1y agoAn Apple Watch with a cellular connection, paired with Airpods, fulfills some of the role of a small iPhone - you can make calls, listen to music, and even do some light texting if Siri likes your accent.
- fxtentacle 1y agoNo camera => not a phone replacement for most of the market
- MangoToupe 1y agoI love my apple watch but I can safely say i've never done any of the above with it. It's too much of a pain to switch the bluetooth headphones to it and the screen is too small to do much actual computing with it. The fitness aspects are totally worth the money, though.
- DrProtic 1y agoThere is one, shame it’s 3%.
- simplesimon890 1y agoIf Apple produced an Iphone SE with battery life that lasted, by making it a little thicker, then people would buy it IMO. The problem with the small phones is they arecreated on the premise that they should be crappy phones. Of course everyone has a different version of what they consider crappy but bad battery life has got to be at the top of most people's crap-o-meter
- kridsdale1 1y agoiPhone 13 Mini was as you say. In every way as good as the full size iPhone but small. I hear it was quite an engineering challenge. I love the thing. The people of earth did not buy it.
- mulmen 1y agoPeople did buy it though. Apple sold a non-zero number of iPhone 13 Minis. They simply decided that number wasn’t big enough.
- BuckRogers 1y agoIt was a self-fulfilling prophecy to launch the iPhone mini during Covid, offer it 2 years, and say no one wants them. Especially when the SE proved people have no aversion to a normal sized phone meant for human hands.
- wffurr 1y agoI am clinging to mine in the vain hope they something similar gets built before it loses security updates.
- jsheard 1y agoI don't think they even set out to make a small phone with the SE, they set out to make a cheap phone. They achieved that by reusing older generation iPhone tooling which just happened to be smaller, as was the style at the time. When they refreshed the SE line it too got larger as it graduated to using later generation tooling.
- whynotminot 1y agoYall forgetting they literally made an amazing iPhone Mini that no one bought
- MajorBee 1y agoI bought :( Loved the thing, but yeah batter life wasn't the best. Also noticed that app developers would sometimes not take into account the smaller viewport on the Mini, and so app views would sometimes look too squished or out of place. That 's a minor grouse though compared to the subpar batter life.
- layer8 1y agoI don’t know what they set out to do, but the marketing material specifically emphasized the compact form factor. (I’m reluctant to call it “small”, because the iPhone 5 didn’t seem small to me at the time.)
- Zak 1y agoI suspect the iPhone Mini didn't sell well for reasons beyond people generally preferring larger phones, and suspect it might sell better today. The biggest issue is that it was introduced in 2020 when many people were in lockdowns. A phone's portability was not as important, and people mainly using their phone at home on the couch likely preferred large screens more than usual. The second issue is that the screens used slow pulse width modulation for dimming and could appear flickery for some users. Finally, battery life was uncompetitive. Sony Xperia Compact models introduced years earlier had larger batteries. My guess is accepting a tiny bit more thickness would solve this problem.
- kjkjadksj 1y agoAnd yet, they sell, so people do want them.
- crote 1y ago> They're giving the market the size people actually want. Are they, though? In my experience the smaller phones are almost always substantially worse products: they have several gigabytes less RAM, usually half the storage of the alternatives, often lack features like wireless charging, have a slower CPU, have a worse camera, and in general are made using cheaper materials. We don't know what the market wants, because the market was never able to make a fair choice. It wasn't "big phone vs small phone", it was "big full-featured phone vs shitty watered-down small phone" - no wonder people "chose" for the big phones.