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Redmond, WA, turns off Flock Safety cameras after ICE arrests
- dredmorbius 1y agoNB: Title edited to add "WA" for clarity. I.e., this is the city of, not a toponym for another entity.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- aerostable_slug 1y ago[flagged]
- lowmagnet 1y agoFlock doesn't fight crime, it documents the travel of people without a reason.
- FireBeyond 1y agoAnd AI based "suspicious movements of vehicles".
- aerostable_slug 1y agoIt and other ALPR systems real-time alert on things like stolen cars. In my home county they have arrested and convicted criminals due to this. That is fighting crime, by definition. If it was such a bad idea, they shouldn't have installed them in Redmond. Turning them off now because some people assumed things that weren't true is idiocy and sets a bad precedent.
- seplox 1y agoYeah, but. The side-effect of catching criminals and protecting the children is that they also provide a searchable database of everyone's historical travel habits. It's my opinion that our historical ideas of expectation of privacy when in public spaces are incompatible with the current state of surveillance technology. Sure, everyone should expect that they might be recognized by an acquaintance when out in public, but I don't think it follows that our entire past history should be available at any time in the future.
- compiler-guy 1y agoIf we made a mistake, we should fix it. Sometimes it takes an actual bad outcome for people to realize that the potential problems weren’t theoretical.
- aerostable_slug 1y agoBut there wasn't an actual bad outcome. Did anyone read the article? It was all a coincidence.
- compiler-guy 1y agoThe bad outcome is now a much more real possibility than before, and very front and center.
- pseudalopex 1y agoThe article said University of Washington researchers released a report Oct. 21 showing federal immigration agencies like ICE and Border Patrol had accessed the data of at least 18 Washington cities, often without their police departments’ knowing.
- fuzzylightbulb 1y agoIts a data gathering system. it takes pictures of everything that goes past it so that IF something happens, cops can search back through the system to see if/when a suspect went past that sensor. This sort of thing should be turned off regardless. I don't want my movements recorded and tracked all the time in the off chance someone might do something later. This ICE situation is the perfect example of why these actively passive systems are a threat.
- aerostable_slug 1y agoIn my home county they've arrested car thieves and recovered vehicles due to real-time Flock hits. It is not simply for forensic purposes. If it was a bad idea it shouldn't have been installed in the first place. Turning it off now because a few loud people assumed things that weren't true (ICE using the system) is idiotic.
- whatshisface 1y agoIt shouldn't have been installed in the first place, but in real life, sometimes people need a concrete example to realize something others figured out from principles.
- aerostable_slug 1y agoThere is no concrete example. Nothing actually happened. ICE didn't access the cameras. I feel like I'm the only one who read the article.
- whatshisface 1y agoWhat they have, thankfully, is a concrete example of there being such a thing as an uncivil authority, not a concrete example of their mistake leading to irreparable harm.
- pseudalopex 1y agoThe article said University of Washington researchers released a report Oct. 21 showing federal immigration agencies like ICE and Border Patrol had accessed the data of at least 18 Washington cities, often without their police departments’ knowing.
- nrb 1y agoI’d start by being ticked off that my city was burning money deploying a cloud-connected mass surveillance apparatus.
- supportengineer 1y agoUntil someone you love gets abducted, and then you want them to be found right now.
- nrb 1y agoUntil the government decides someone you love needs to get disappeared, and then you want to provide no aid to them. This technology swings both ways and as such is too dangerous to exist. We have plenty of other means to instantly and broadly raise awareness about abductions.
- gdulli 1y agoThere's a reason we don't have people recently affected by a tragedy write policy regarding that tragedy, in their heightened emotional state.
- aerostable_slug 1y ago[flagged]
- Eisenstein 1y agoI don't think anyone is going to expect you to listen to anything they have to say when you characterize people who you only just read about second hand as 'hysterical idiots'. It demonstrates that you are not interested in any other point of view.
- nrb 1y ago> So why is the city listening to hysterical idiots who assumed that ICE was accessing systems they weren't? What have you heard or seen that gives you that impression? According to the article “University of Washington researchers released a report Oct. 21 showing federal immigration agencies like ICE and Border Patrol had accessed the data of at least 18 Washington cities, often without their police departments’ knowing” It seems plausible that the local government came to realize that unauthorized use of Flock data was happening elsewhere in the state and decided to act. These sort of privacy intrusions start off with the veneer of best intentions but when abuse is uncovered, people tend to get real.
- focusgroup0 1y ago[flagged]
- add-sub-mul-div 1y ago[flagged]
- genericone 1y agoExcessive speeders in the absence of speed-limit enforcement just creates neighbors that don't mind their neighborhood being consumed by speed bumps/dips, I think there's an analogy here in residential areas. And if you have a lot of children in your neighborhood, there IS a 'xx-phobia' for speeders. But speed bumps and dips are an absolute nuisance and sometimes dangerous, so just having cameras identify and a system willing to punish speeders would absolutely be the preference.
- throitallaway 1y agoThey'd find a need (or excuse) for it regardless of the state of our immigration system.
- willk 1y agoI don’t buy that for a second. Governments always want more control, and this is just another way for them to get it.
- ls612 1y agoBut the sorts of ICE actions that are causing this controversy only have political support because the US immigration laws have been flouted for 30+ years. Regardless of what you or I think of it it’s the reality that lots of the electorate wants deportations and lots of them and that likely isn’t true in a world where the laws on the books were more strictly enforced in the past.
- uoaei 1y agoRed herring. Political support is due to mass media narrative campaigns, in this day and age groundswell politics is simply infeasible with the power that narrative has in today's culture.
- pton_xd 1y agoWhat did they think would happen? Installing surveillance systems to monitor people is acceptable, as long as they're only used against the majority? I don't understand the logic here.
- estearum 1y agoYou don't understand the logic of "there are some crime problems we're willing to accept more intrusions to solve than other crime problems?" Seems like something virtually everyone believes, and all that changes is where they draw the line of balance between intrusion and safety.
- karmakaze 1y agoThe point is that there is no actual line. There's the premise which then collects the data. Then the data can be used for other purposes--no line prevents this.
- Tadpole9181 1y agoWeird. There's an article right here showing them turning off the cameras when the line was crossed and now that data can't be used the way they don't want. So clearly we're allowed more nuanced takes than you think.
- notyourwork 1y agoReactivity isn’t proactively protecting what you belief. It’s reacting to public outcry for the original premise.
- brookst 1y agoAre you proposing everyone make the optimal decision in advance, when outcomes are all speculative, and just be sure to get it right so there’s no need to learn and adapt to circumstances?
- cipehr 1y agoA little annoyed, this seems like is has nothing to do with the ICE arrests... > The city suspended its Flock system because city officials could not guarantee they wouldn’t be forced to release data collected by those devices someday, she said. Key part is "someday". Seems like the article is implying that flock may have shared this data with ICE which led to the arrests... but there is no proof supporting this... > On Thursday, a Skagit County Superior Court judge ruled that pictures taken by Flock cameras in the cities of Sedro-Woolley and Stanwood qualify as public records, and therefore must be released as required by the state’s Public Records Act, court records show. This is the more likely reason. What do folks here think about this ruling? IMO it seems obvious that this should be public records/data, but would love to hear alternative positions to this.
- Eisenstein 1y agoI think we need to revise our understanding of expectation of privacy. The 'you have no expectation of privacy when you are outside' bit was formed before we had everything recording us and before face recognition could track us. At the very least I think any kind of face recognition should require probable cause.
- cipehr 1y agoIts an interesting question indeed. You're saying there might be some expectation of privacy even in public? The line here is a little different. I could point a camera out my window and record every license plate that drives by my house, and that would be allowed because its recording public activities, and the data I collect would be private—its mine from my camera. The question here is if a public/government agency pays a private company to setup cameras in public, for the benefit of the public, then should that data collected by those cameras not also be public? The courts seem to agree that it should be public, and I fail to see why it shouldn't be. Maybe I should read the opposition briefs on it.
- dylan604 1y ago> The question here is if a public/government agency pays a private company to setup cameras in public, for the benefit of the public, then should that data collected by those cameras not also be public? This is how NASA operates with the data/images collected from the tax payer funded operations it runs. There is a period of exclusivity allowed for some projects to allow the people to work with the data, but anybody can go down load high res imagery once it has been released.
- notepad0x90 1y ago[flagged]
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago> No matter what, the whole ICE acting like the SS thing will only result in more illegal migration in the long term, like a lot more. How so? What mechanism do you see that goes from "ICE acting like the SS" to "a lot more illegal migration in the long term"? What's the cause and effect here? Not saying you're wrong, necessarily, just... I don't see the causality at all.
- brianbreslin 1y agoMy guess is he sees ICE hauling people out of even the courts when they were attempting to abide by the legal processes and will say f-it, why bother, its safer to not adhere. just my assumption of OP's intent.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoStatistics are showing that the total immigrant population is down by over a million since the start of the year. If you have the ability to leave, why put up with this nonsense? https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/08/21/key-findings-about-us-immigrants/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/08/21/key-findi...
- notepad0x90 1y agoWhat was the reaction to SS? or to stick to my DEA example, what was the result of the war on drugs? millions and millions dead because of drug related causes right? how do you think the nation will react to ICE's brutal and cruel, even illegal operations? many would consider them heroes, but the other side will consider them no different than the SS or gestapo, the only correction is to wind down immigration enforcement dramatically, increasing immigration. Imagine a democrat administration simply reverting ICE to its pre-2025 state. the implication alone and the perception it gives will drive up illegal immigration. "america is open again".
- SpicyLemonZest 1y ago
- seltzered_ 1y ago"On Thursday, a Skagit County Superior Court judge ruled that pictures taken by Flock cameras in the cities of Sedro-Woolley and Stanwood qualify as public records, and therefore must be released as required by the state’s Public Records Act, court records show." This video by Tom Lehto talks more about that court case that illustrates citizens can legally do FOIA requests for traffic cameras (e.g. Flock): https://youtu.be/1vQn4MWBln0 https://youtu.be/1vQn4MWBln0
- wrs 1y agoThe example of Seattle Police dashcam and body camera footage may be interesting. When those things were relatively new, ten years ago or so, someone started filing daily public records requests for footage from all 911 dispatches (among other things). They wanted to build their own database of the theoretically public footage. The SPD complained that the overhead of redacting all that footage would be impossible. Eventually the legislature clarified the status and tightened the request rules, so now you have to request footage for a specific incident, and you may have to pay a redaction fee. [0] [0] https://mrsc.org/explore-topics/public-records/law-enforcement/video-footage https://mrsc.org/explore-topics/public-records/law-enforceme...
- mulmen 1y agoI think someone even tried automating the redactions then posting to YouTube. It’s an interesting case that pits privacy against transparency. I absolutely want the cops to wear bodycams and I’d prefer they can’t even turn them off. But they also need to protect the privacy of victims, suspects, and witnesses. So they can’t just live stream to the Internet either. How much is the redaction fee? How much would it cost to just pay it for everything?
- alexpotato 1y agoAs another data point/example: Florida is a "sunshine state" [0] when it comes to public records which is why it's legal: - to have mugshots and arrest records posted online - which in turn leads to "attractive felon" style websites where mugshots are rated. I'm generally for more privacy while at the same time getting why people push for transparency. Either way you get downstream and often unintended consequences. 0 - https://www.myfloridalegal.com/open-government/the-quotsunshinequot-law https://www.myfloridalegal.com/open-government/the-quotsunsh...
- aids_bomb 1y ago[dead]
- outside1234 1y agoWe are all speed running our learning on how all of these systems can be used against us.
- sleepybrett 1y agoNo they turned them off because it turns out those cameras are public records and all their citizens can make requests for ALL THAT DATA.
- adrr 1y agoCouldn't they just not log the license plates and only look for license plates on the list like stolen cars, stolen plates, amber alert etc? Why do they a need a list of all cars that the camera saw?
- relaxing 1y agoTo run fishing expeditions.
- segmondy 1y agoThey don't just log license, they log everything about the car, dents, location of dents, type of wheels, stickers, etc. If you swap a license plate they would be able to tell the car. One local case I read about, the culprits used their own car with a stolen plate. They were able to identify the car based on the car's "fingerprints" dents, style, color, antenna, scratches etc.
- JCharante 1y agoThat’s some cool tech!
- echelon 1y agoI have seen so many of these cameras by intersections recently! I wondered what they were.
- helterskelter 1y agoI'm in the PNW and they put Flock cameras up in my area recently. Nobody likes them (libs or cons), and we've seen some rather creative approaches to uh...disabling them. One person took a pipe cutter to the mount and spirited the whole unit away, another apparently fired a shotgun slug through it, somebody else looks like they used it to relieve their anger problems with a metal pipe. Flock cameras, America's bipartisan issue?
- reactordev 1y agoAnd yet they drive away in their GM/Ford/Nissan/Tesla/Any car/truck with its connected media unit and telemetry gathering infotainment systems and think “This is fine”.
- helterskelter 1y agoHey it's a start. Get people together who don't like Flock cameras and tell them about pulling the modem out of their vehicle and you'll get some bites.
- reactordev 1y agoExcept when it’s all tied into the ECU and you can’t remove it. Ugh… You’re right. It’s a start. There’s also https://www.deflock.me https://www.deflock.me
- Infernal 1y agoOn some vehicles it’s easier than others. Unfortunately it’s a great idea to research before making a purchase decision.
- tavavex 1y agoIs local jamming or removing their antennas a viable strategy? Seems like it could be easier to just make them unable to phone home, rather than trying to surgically rip out the bundle of hardware and software responsible for it while leaving everything else intact.
- gnarlouse 1y agoRedmond is such an excellent town.
- cogogo 1y agoClearly relevant regardless of opinion. https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/flock-safety https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/flock-safety
- snickerbockers 1y agoSo I definitely agree it's a positive development that these cameras are being taken down because they're absolutely orwellian, but I really don't understand why "the line" is being drawn at immigration enforcement? Were people really okay with this until the point where they found out that illegal immigrants can be tracked by the surveillance state too?
- np_tedious 1y ago[flagged]
- potato3732842 1y agoWhich is bad because a lot of them will be right back to insisting on more cameras, more data collection and more jackboot the second he's gone.
- thrance 1y agoWonder why people would take issue with the unqualified, armed, masked thugs abducting innocent people off the street and deporting them without recourse or due process. Must be all about Trump, surely. The only thing defying logic here is the MAGA cult rationalizing away the brown shirts now patrolling the streets of America, they who are supposedly so attached to freedom.
- potato3732842 1y ago>Wonder why people would take issue with the unqualified, armed, masked thugs abducting innocent people off the street and deporting them without recourse or due process. Congress can whip up a law making immigration infractions more serious crimes (which comes with better process) and day it chooses. ICE can send better qualified better trained agents any time it chooses. They can likewise be more fastidious about who they choose to go after such that far fewer innocents are caught up in it. Would that make it ok?
- thrance 1y ago
- generalizations 1y agoThe UK has their "blade runners" - maybe the US needs them, too. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/ulez-cameras-vandalism-blade-runners-b2392729.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/ulez-cameras-van...
- chzblck 1y agoI know there's a massive hate for flock online but it solved a murder that happened in a park behind my house in less than 24 hours which was pretty cool.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- Slava_Propanei 1y ago[dead]