16 ms·

A Letter from Tim Cook on Maps

620 points by j4mie 14y ago

Naushad 14y ago
Issue a defective product and crowd source data to perfect it. Pathetic approach. We miss you Steve
caycep 14y ago
I wonder....contrast the relatively polished release of OS X mountain lion (yes, it had a few hiccups, but overall, pretty smooth) under Federighi (and potentially with Serlet lineage) with iOS 6, with its ambitious but flawed features, skeuomorphic design, etc. What is going on in the mind of Scott Forstall?
cicloid 14y ago
This should be view on the same grounds as the scolding from Jobs to the MobileMe group when it launched. The alternatives are almost the same as when it launched. Even having those. How many are having real problems or just hating because is the new fad?
- TheOnly92 14y ago
  Well actually regardless of that, Apple is a brand that people trust, and of course there are times that Apple might fail and we criticize because we trust they can do a better job. To me it's much better that "this product is shit" than "ah it's apple, what do you expect?".
- atourgates 14y ago
  The other day I got my iPhone 5 on the mail, but it wouldn't activate because of a SIM card error. So, I get it the car, look up the closest Verizon store on Apple maps using my old iPhone, and drive there. I end up at a run down strip mall with no Verizon store in sight. So, I load up Google maps is Safari, and it finds and takes me to an actual Verizon store about 3 miles away. So yes, people are having actual problems with Apple maps.
  - chucknelson 14y ago
    This type of stuff happened with Google maps too, but everyone seems to forget that. A year or so ago in Houston I was following Google maps to a theater and ended up in the middle of some suburban neighborhood. Let's just all remember that the old maps app was not flawless.
    - llimllib 14y ago
      My main use for my phone is maps. Using the Google Maps app, this never happened to me in hundreds and hundreds of routes. Using the ios6 maps app for the first time, to locate a verizon store to go and order my iphone 5, it failed to find a Verizon store I knew was there from previous research. I had to settle for mapping the street and finding the store myself. I'm not saying the old maps app didn't do that to you, just that the rate of that sort of occurrence, given the evidence I've seen, was much lower in ios5 maps than it is in ios6.
      - dpark 14y ago
        I can't compare against iOS 6, because I haven't updated my phone. But I did indeed have Google drop me off in the wrong place several times. I had it send me into the suburbs of Bellevue looking for a Home Depot that didn't exist. Last week it sent me 4 blocks away from the restaurant I was looking for (and told me it was on the wrong side of the road, a common issue with Google Maps). I still think the new Maps has notable issues from everything I've read, but Google-based Maps was by no means perfect.
  - pohl 14y ago
    The question was not whether there exist people who are having problems. Rather, it was "how many?" How much of this is the self-selected sample of those who are irritated enough to complain? Data is not he plural of anecdote.
    - uxp 14y ago
      There very well can be a communications cascading effect as well. How many people complaining right now about iOS 6 Maps are doing so because their friends are. Just as it's cool to be the one with the new iPhone 5, it's also cool to be one of the one's that is late to the appointment because your Maps app told you to take a left instead of a right. You're one of the crowd, and you have something different. Maybe they should have released Maps as a downloadable app. Maybe they should have waited another year. Maybe they should have... They didn't and outside of transit* there is nothing that is absolutely terrible about the app. It's immature, sure, but it's not the worst thing to happen to the international community since the invention of the atomic weapon. * If you know any objective-c and are complaining about the lack of transit options, contact your local public transportation authority and develop an app on your own.
- iaskwhy 14y ago
  In London I am used to check the Maps app almost everyday. Problems I had so far: - I am still waiting to get a correct location when searching by post code. - Searching by the street name sometimes gives me that same street name somewhere in the USA even with the GPS on and map centered on my current location. - I was in Holborn centered on my location, searched for a Nando's, it told me to go up that same street. Turns out it was down, wrong location for that Nando's. - It is much more difficult to differenciate between an underground and a rail station since they look almost the same unlike Google Maps or Bing Maps. I have been using Google Maps mobile web app and the Bing native app with good results. Still a step backwards because both are much slower than the old Maps. So yes, people are having real problems. Small edit: I don't trust the new maps data anymore, that's the biggest problem though.
- rrreese 14y ago
  I live in the United Kingdom, and can say that the new maps are a vast downgrade. Central London seems OK, but outside that there are numerous problems. Off the top of my head areas that I have visited lately have no high detail satellite, satellite photos with clouds or points of interest in the wrong place or not existing at all. This isn't some hypothetical problem, this is going from maps I use all the time with success, to maps that have become vastly less useful.
bdfh42 14y ago
This is not just an "end user" problem it is a developer problem. Our "hyper local" app looks (and is) terrible on iOS6 but runs just fine on iOS5 (with Google mapping). iOS was the choice for the lead mobile platform but with iOS6 take up levels running high we may have to switch to Android to be able to demonstrate all of our ideas.
- chucknelson 14y ago
  Looks terrible? I don't think the look of the new maps is under much criticism. I thought the general consensus was "pretty but not as functional"?
  - ruswick 14y ago
    Although the app's lack of proper search and laughable location plotting, my chief issue with the new Maps is the aesthetic, which I consider to be unequivocally inferior to Google Maps.
    - nicholassmith 14y ago
      I swing the other way, I think it looks much better in many ways. I much prefer the typography and a few other design touches.
      - mikeash 14y ago
        I agree. The new Maps looks really nice, it just isn't very useful. IMO it's a great example of form over function.
  - metatation 14y ago
    It's unusably terrible for some people (like me). Apparently I now live on the moon: http://cl.ly/image/3q3v262G3P2s http://cl.ly/image/3q3v262G3P2s
  - vilya 14y ago
    I find it harder to read. In particular, it's a lot harder to distinguish icons for useful things like train/tube stations from icons I don't care about like wine bars.
tghw 14y ago
We launched Maps initially with the first version of iOS. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up. Google already did all of this. It's just that Apple wouldn't let them include those features on iOS. This is rather blatant lying.
- dakotasmith 14y ago
  I believe the we in "we wanted to provide our customers" is Apple, not Apple and Google. Hyperbolic to call it blatant lying.
  - tghw 14y ago
    I believe it is blatant lying because they went out of their way to prevent their customers from having those features, even though they were readily available on other platforms through their established partner. It's also rather dishonest to say that they had to build something new from the ground up. They had other options (namely Google), which would have served their customers better.
    - wklauss 14y ago
      They had to if they considered that what Google was asking was unreasonable. For all we now Google might have asked for things Apple was not comfortable giving them, starting with user data and all the way up to co-branding.
    - jwoldan 14y ago
      Actually, from everything I've read, it appears Google refused to allow Apple to implement those features (see, for example, http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple-google-maps-talks-crashed-over-voice-guided-directions/ http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple-google-maps-talks-crash...). Google wanted to keep those features exclusive to Android maps.
    - dakotasmith 14y ago
tammer 14y ago
I don't think I realized what an actual issue this is... Cook isn't speaking to people who have been following this debacle since the beta, he's speaking to people who think the only way to get location info is through the "maps" button on their phone. Let's hope, for the sake of those people at least, Apple can get some better data.
lewisflude 14y ago
As far as I'm concerned, apology accepted. [ assuming this is an apology of course ]
- jug6ernaut 14y ago
  An apology should never have to be inferred, with that said expecting a full out apology from apple is asking a lot, not that it isn't warranted.
  - fredoliveira 14y ago
    No need to infer. From the letter: "We are extremely sorry"
    - lewisflude 14y ago
      Sorry for themselves?
      - arrrg 14y ago
        “With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are extremely sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers and we are doing everything we can to make Maps better.” That’s a proper apology. No dodging, no sidestepping, no shifting of the blame. We screwed up, we are sorry for the problems that caused, we are doing everything we can to fix this.
        lewisflude 14y ago
        It's very well written, but I don't doubt that the entire message came directly from the PR department. Anyway, the proof is in the pudding, as they say, so let's see what they do.
        arrrg 14y ago
        Uhm, sure. I’m not sure what your point is, though. Of course Tim Cook has people to help him write that. Of course he didn’t just walk into his office, wrote this and sent it off without consulting anyone. Do you think the PR department is incapable of writing apologies?
eggbrain 14y ago
What I want to know is -- why did they release the app in the state that it was in vs partnering with someone like Microsoft? Let's assume that Apple's contract with Google was ending soon, and that Google had failed to deliver features for Apple (turn by turn, etc), meaning Apple wanted to go a different direction. Sure, Apple then started buying up mapping companies, building their own product, but they must have known they were on a tight schedule. My question is -- why didn't they partner with Microsoft to use Bing maps? Microsoft gets a huge win in that suddenly 40 million people are using their service. Apple gets a win in that they have a pretty comparative product out of the gate to Google Maps, and it gives them time to build up their own service. But instead, Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they had before. Where's the logic in that?
- Cadsby 14y ago
  Part of the rationale for cutting ties with Google Maps seems to have been to avoid being reliant on a major competitor for core functionality. Partnering with Microsoft would simply have been trading one competitor for another. Presumably this is the same reason they didn't partner with Nokia either.
- kmfrk 14y ago
  It could be the Goldilocks problem for Apple with their own - supposedly - high bar for quality that made them end up with their own vastly inferior product. I imagine we'll see some scoops on the inside baseball in a few weeks.
- TetOn 14y ago
  They don't want to partner with anybody. All that would do is recreate the problem they faced with Google: losing control and sooner or later negatively affecting user experience as New Partner Co. begins to favor its interests over whatever future interests Apple may or may not have. Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App. Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.
HNaTTY 14y ago
Sounds like Tim Cook thinks that good maps are a chicken-and-egg problem. You can't correct bad maps without users reporting inaccuracies, and you can't get people to use inaccurate maps. So you force it on them, and then start fixing everything that gets reported. Crowdsourcing.
fcoury 14y ago
It would be nice if they approved Google's Map application for the time being as a great alternative. The lack of that option is what is holding me back in iOS 5...
- nicholassmith 14y ago
  Google hasn't even submitted an app,that's been confirmed.
  - Johngibb 14y ago
    I didn't know it had been confirmed yet, can you add a link?
- nexneo 14y ago
  They can't approve Google's map application, until google submit one.
- brown9-2 14y ago
  Is there any indication there is a Maps app from Google awaiting approval? I thought the consensus was that Google is scrambling to build one now. This sounds like speculation.
- dbau 14y ago
  The reports I've read indicate that Google are still working on their iOS Maps App so I don't believe there is anything for Apple to simply approve right now.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- stordoff 14y ago
  According to Reuters[1], Google haven't submitted an app yet. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/25/us-google-iphone-idUSBRE88O07U20120925 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/25/us-google-iphone-i...
ajanuary 14y ago
> While we’re improving Maps, you can try alternatives by > downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest > and Waze, or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their > websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their > web app. I was quite surprised they listed competitors. Is this an unusual move or a normal/expected thing to do in a case like this?
denzil_correa 14y ago
Great to see this letter from Tim Cook. When was the last time such a letter was written by a CEO?
- lovamova 14y ago
  Jobs. Antennagate.
  - denzil_correa 14y ago
    Do you have a link to a letter which says signed by Steve Jobs? The OP link is signed by Tim Cook CEO, Apple.
    - lovamova 14y ago
      Yes, two actually. [1] http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/ http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/ [2] http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-Regarding-iPhone-4.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-...
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- doomlaser 14y ago
  Not branded as from Steve Jobs himself, but this is very reminiscent of the 'Antennagate' letter Apple issued after the introduction of the iPhone 4: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-Regarding-iPhone-4.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-...
  - ConstantineXVI 14y ago
    Hardly the same. It starts off by essentially saying "b-but everyone else does it!", and nothing even remotely close to "we fell short on this commitment" or "We are extremely sorry".
markshepard 14y ago
Considering that Apple knew that every single aspect of its software will come under scrutiny, Releasing the software in this state indicates callous attitude towards the users. Do I believe that the software will improve? Yes.. eventually. I know in enterprise software provides like IBM tend to ship hardware with incomplete software and rely in service packs to complete the functions.And if Apple thinks that the same model will work for Consumer products, then they are plain wrong.
eddieroger 14y ago
A fun anecdote regarding Maps. I was talking with a friend of mine last night on the iPhone. She was complaining that her iPhone was working poorly, and she was frustrated with it. I asked if she had updated to iOS 6 yet, since sometimes a restore cycle can clear things up. She told me, no, she wasn't, because she heard maps were terrible. I said, "did you hear they are terrible, or have you used them and think they're terrible?" She said she heard only. Interestingly, though, she said she had been using turn-by-turn with "a voice telling her when to turn." I asked her to go to Settings and check, and sure enough, she had updated and actually liked new Maps. I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my experience, and has improved since the betas.
- lmm 14y ago
  >Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad I think this is another example of the biggest general complaint about apple Maps, that it's too US-centric. Here in Europe a mapping program that can't do transit is a joke.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    That's true in many places in the US as well. We have plenty of big cities with well-developed public transportation, after all.
  - arrrg 14y ago
    So like Google Maps in Germany, then, eh? Google Maps never had any transit info in Germany. It never was a joke, it always was awesome (even if always fraught with problems and errors).
- mikeash 14y ago
  Un-fucking-believable. The CEO of Apple has come right out and admitted that Maps is sub-par, and the Apple fans are still trying to pretend that the problems are not real.
rodh 14y ago
Apple has built a reputation of only releasing products that were absolutely completed and quality controlled. From my understanding, the company ethos has been that any defect, no matter how small, would result in the product being delayed. Speaking from my own perspective, admission or not, I think it's the break in that expectation that has me disappointed.
- cbs 14y ago
  I don't know how to respond to this other than "lol". Apple often releases products that many consumers would consider "incomplete". The only difference is that Apple never admitted to being wrong ever. Their branding depends on being seen as shiny software company-upon-a-hill. That's the only difference here, they admitted to making a bad decision. Their little spat with google just made this an unusually bad one; one that they couldn't paper over.
  - smacktoward 14y ago
    You will notice that the name at the bottom of this Apple letter is different than the name that appeared at the bottom of previous Apple letters. This change may have some connection to their new willingness to admit having made a mistake.
  - hughw 14y ago
    Right. It took them a lot longer to reluctantly admit anything went wrong in antennagate, and their apology lacked conviction.
  - rodh 14y ago
    That's the key, when you said "many" consumers would consider past products incomplete: it's quite subjective whether to call a product complete or incomplete. They would never admit to wrongdoing because there'd always be some way for them to argue otherwise. As I mention in my other follow-up comment here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586212 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586212, the difference in this case is that the product is objectively incomplete: the data itself is measurably bad.
StacyC 14y ago
This is how you do it. Well done, Mr Cook.
- josteink 14y ago
  Having some standards and providing a working maps app before release would be my definition of "how to do it", but maybe I'm missing something here. Obviously Apple knew their solution was shit, but they released it anyway, hoping people wouldn't mind too much. That was their choice and now they have to deal. This is not dealing.
digitalengineer 14y ago
Crazy thing is according to TomTom there is no problem in the actual map data they provided. (I think they're right. I've driven across Europe without major problems using TomTom. There were no complaints about the TomTom App according to the 4.5 star reviews). According to TomTom, Appel combines their data with data from other sources and Apple has a problem combining/rendering the data... http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-idUSL5E8KLHPX20120921 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-...
- arrrg 14y ago
  I don’t think turn-by-turn (what TomTome provides) is the problem. That seems to work like a charm (at least it does for me). I get excellent TomTom-level quality here in Germany, plus the great (best of breed) traffic info from TomTom. For me, search and POIs are slightly dysfunctional and some labels are out of whack – both of that, however, doesn’t seem to have any impact on my turn-by-turn experience. So I can believe that TomTom is not to blame here.
  - jmelloy 14y ago
    It also could suggest that the .1 version will be a significant upgrade if the underlying date's good but it's being parsed wrong/deprioritized for OSM data/etc. Better than if the underlying data is wrong, anyway.
- smackfu 14y ago
  I haven't really heard many complaints about the quality of the road data. Like that turn-by-turn is telling you to go the wrong-way down one way streets, or make a turn that isn't allowed. (In contrast, I've had Waze tell me to turn left off of an interstate highway onto an underpass road. Because no one had set that as a disallowed turn. That's bad map data.)
steve8918 14y ago
From a purely competitive standpoint, this is why Google should be releasing their Google Maps app immediately, and if Apple drags their feet, they should launch a lawsuit to force them to do so. First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google. Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them, it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they did with Microsoft. Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive disadvantage for years.
- salman89 14y ago
  I disagree. PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android. It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store. It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I wonder if a court feels the same way. Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done. Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.
  - rimantas 14y ago
    > Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has > considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google > (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. No. First of all new maps is feature of iOS6 which is no in hands of more than 50% of iOS users not feature of iPhone 5. Second, there are other places in the world where new maps app is as good or better than old one was. And we finally got turn-by-turn navigation. > They've never been a data company as it is They've never been mobile phone makers before iPhone too, remember? "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in". Let's not forget their map-related acquisitions and partnership with companies in the field.
catfish 14y ago
At Orange, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. Except when we feel that someone else is doing it better in which case we strive to eliminate the obviously superior product from our walled garden. With the launch of our shitty Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers but we are doing everything we can to make shitty Maps better, except to provide you what you want right now, a working map. We launched shitty Maps initially with the first version of Orange. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better shitty Maps including features such as really bad directions, never understands your voice integration, Flyover the wrong location and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of shitty Maps from the ground up, and though its not ready for prime time we are so worried about our competition that we dumped them prematurely from our walled garden and forced this abomination on you. There are already more than 100 million Orange devices using the new shitty Maps, with more and more joining us every day. And you know that this is because we reduced your choice to our inferior product, which is what we have the right to do since we own your phone and you don't. In just over a week, Orange users with the new shitty Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations and some actually did find a few locations. The more our customers use our Maps the sooner we will make another billion dollars and we greatly appreciate the fact you have no real choice now that you have our phone in your pocket. While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them as we also created a new nightmare in our Apps store that makes replacing our shitty apps more difficult than ever. We know that the huge majority of Orange users won't have a clue as to what we mean by bookmarking, and of course that is just fine with us. Just use our maps anyway, just like we planned. Everything we do at Orange is aimed at making our products the only product you use. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until EVERYONE in our walled garden is tired of the BS and gets an Android.
- fredoliveira 14y ago
  I don't see how your comment contributes to any meaningful discussion of this topic. I truly don't.
verelo 14y ago
This is pathetic. I'm surprised no one has hit them up with a false advertising claim over their phone not providing what they wanted (directions, in many cases transit directions) I've not heard a single person using apple maps say "this is good", every single person states its a downgrade. Apple need to get their act together and realize what they've done is lost a major set of consumer confidence here and should do everything in their power to set the situation right. I for one was about to do the switch from Android to iphone with the iphone 5 coming out. After seeing apple maps, i've decided that i'll probably just buy the new Nexus when it comes out. Maps are the most important app on my phone besides the dialer and text messaging...not having maps thats anything less than what i've got today is simply not something i'm willing to negotiate. Google will and should do nothing, this is all completely in their favor at this point. IOS might just have taken its first fatal blow.
- Someone 14y ago
  For what it is worth, IOS maps has more recent satellite images and more recent road maps from the centre of the city where I live than maps.google.com (the data from maps.google.com will happily show a continuous road that, nowadays, is only an entry to a parking garage) The IOS 5 app has what looks like the same satellite data as maps.google.com, but even older road topology (it lacks the detour you need to not end up in that garage) So, from the (tiny) part I checked, IOS 6 has better maps than IOS 5. It may be worse on average, but how would a user objectively evaluate a map app that covers the world?
  - verelo 14y ago
    I think the lack of transit directions, poor blending of map images (http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/505cae6969bedd427a000012-413-310/apple-maps.png http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/505cae6969bedd427a0...) and the overall lack of detail is a massive reason to consider it a downgrade. If you're honestly happier with this product then thats cool, but i'm not.
    - Someone 14y ago
      Happier? No. For my uses, both apps are adequate. I do not use maps apps often, and I if do, it is the old-fashioned way: look at the map before I leave, possibly make a screen dump to make sure I'll have some map avaiable on the road, and use that screen dump if necessary to get where I need to be. I will, at some time, miss street view, though. Reading discussions, I also learnt and verified that iOS 6 location search is lousy (I think it doesn't know enough about statitics, or doesn't have enough statistical data (yet?). If one searches for, e.g. 'central station', it will happily return hits such as 'Starbucks central station' or 'the X hotel, central station' in favor of the actual train station. It should know that, when in doubt, it should go for the most often sought for hits)
drewjoh 14y ago
I found this week the true extent of how terrible the new iOS Maps is, when I needed to find a hospital. We needed to go to the ER in the middle of the night, and were stuck waiting at a particular hospital that was nearest to us. I knew there was another, better hospital with a better reputation down the freeway (perhaps 5 miles) and wanted to call to ask what their wait time was. I searched "hospital" and the nearest one provided was 25 miles away. I knew where the one I wanted was and it was no where to be found on iOS Maps. I also searched for "emergency clinics" in various naming forms, knowing of the ones I would try first… and again, came up empty of all the ones that I knew existed. I now have a shortcut to Google Maps on my home screen and will only use iOS maps for turn-by-turn directions. I was very frustrated to begin with that night, and Apple disaster of a Map app didn't help.
factorizer 14y ago
The real question is: douchebags or losers? I'm going for a combination of both.
Revex 14y ago
I can't believe Apple is essentially saying, "Whoops, my bad, here try some other stuff while we fix out mistake." It is really kind of surreal. But good on them for being candid. I almost lost it when they said to add Google maps as a web app. That seriously made me groan out loud.
ilamont 14y ago
I think this is a case where user testing with Apple employees or a trusted focus group failed. For something like maps, which is inherently focused on widely diverse geographies, road setups, and use cases, having just a few hundred testers (most of them in the Bay Area) won't reveal the problems for 99%+ of iPhone owners who live somewhere else.
madewulf 14y ago
Am I the only one to think that such an apology requires guts and honesty? Kudos for that.
madewulf 14y ago
Am I the only one to think that such an apology requires guts and honesty? Kudos for that.
padobson 14y ago
Who thought we'd ever see an Apple CEO actually telling customers to use a competing product to something Apple made while they were the CEO?
skyebook 14y ago
So basically, Tim Cook says: "Use it! Or don't." It would've been nice to see OpenStreetMap get some mention though, as users who think OSM sucks can improve it and indirectly improve iOS maps at the same time.
- spinchange 14y ago
  I would like to know more about this. It's completely not mentioned in the conversation (not just Tim's apology) at all. I know the new app incoroprates traffic data from Waze but they don't talk about OSM involvement at all.
vbl 14y ago
Now I need a letter apologizing about the finish chipping off and the total lack of cases in the marketplace.
eyko 14y ago
He's so full of shit.
MojoJolo 14y ago
He doesn't mention OpenStreet Map as an alternative!
jasonkolb 14y ago
He didn't address why they couldn't release them side-by-side for a year or so to get feedback on the new product before relying on it as the sole bundled maps product.
jusben1369 14y ago
Hmmm. Contrite lasted two paragraphs before we got some defiant bragging about just how great Apple is with "There's already 100 million users!!" Just in case we wondered whether an inflated sense of self importance might have helped contribute to this fiasco ;-) What should they have said? Simply "The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you" would have gotten the point across.
w_t_payne 14y ago
I really did think that Apple had a policy of never apologizing. It seems that I was wrong. A great deal of kudos to Tim Cook for the apology. Perhaps an end to Apple's monumental hubris and arrogance is in sight?
- zerostar07 14y ago
  That's what apple sells, a brand. Once they become commodity, it's all gone.
electic 14y ago
More than this letter, I would love if they update their product page as well and remove the "Amazing Maps" section from their website.
josteink 14y ago
IOW: Apple admits iOS maps is a complete failure. It least they didn't pretend otherwise, like with mobileme.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I wonder if they considered re-licensing with Google for a while and releasing their own 'App' in the App Store to compete. It would get downloaded if only because it had turn by turn and the licensed product did not. Then offering people perhaps some perks for helping improve it, allowed it to live side by side with Google's maps until it was ready to take over.
stephenhuey 14y ago
Someone was telling me only a couple of days ago about a time when Google Maps guided her to a nonexistent building out in the middle of nowhere next to some farm field in Pennsylvania. That story and some of my own Google Maps Fail experiences wouldn't scare me off of Google Maps since the tool, although sometimes mistaken, is much better than what I used to navigate back in the 90s! Reminds me of Louis C.K. joking about people complaining about not being able to get on WiFi when they're magically sitting in a chair 30,000 feet up in the sky. Apple wanted to build a mapping tool, and they'd probably get complaints from folks on here no matter whether they started with an excellent data source or whether they broke from their tradition and took a gutsy move that might hurt the user experience for a while. :)
- tarr11 14y ago
  Standards are much higher for maps than when Maps was new (just as they are for planes) You wouldn't want Apple building iPlane this way, right?
  - stephenhuey 14y ago
    I will give you that. My iPhone 4 is actually still on iOS 5 because I've felt hesitant and wanted to hear more feedback before I downloaded the upgrade. But I can honestly say that Google Maps has failed me and others many times, so it'd be interesting to know if the "failure" rates of the two mapping solutions are closer than one might expect, and that people are just posting the Apple ones online because iOS 6 is under more scrutiny at the moment.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
fotoblur 14y ago
Curious, I've heard many times now that by simply using Apples new mapping app it will get better when more people use it. I have yet to understand how that process works. Can anyone elaborate? Thanks.
petegrif 14y ago
It's great that he apologized, but it shouldn't have been a surprise. The problems that I have had are so gross, so blindingly obvious, that the most cursory use would have revealed problems. Hence he cannot of himself used the product, which is kinda sad.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- saiko-chriskun 14y ago
  they cut their contract with google....
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
harywilke 14y ago
I wonder how long till apple makes something similar to google's mapmaker. watch map edits in real time for a while and you'll see the power of local people for fixing a lot of map issues. http://www.google.com/mapmaker/pulse http://www.google.com/mapmaker/pulse
jdechko 14y ago
I'm fortunate enough to live in an area with pretty good coverage by the new Maps. I'm also savvy enough to point out errors, as I'm sure most people on HN and other various tech sites are. I'm not saying that it isn't a big stumble for Apple, because it is, but it's only going to get better (not that it can get much worse for some). Apparently maps are hard. Apple already knows this, and most of us are figuring this out too. But Apple have the resources to make it better, and I am willing to help. This move was inevitable for Apple; it had to happen sooner or later, and the longer they waited, the bigger the gap they'd have to make up to be "on par" with Google Maps. And Apple should start with a web interface to the maps. It would make correcting data a lot easier.
tharris0101 14y ago
Obviously the maps app should never have been released. Beta testing showed that it had issues. I give props to Tim Cook, though. Steve Jobs would have never apologized like this. I'm worried about Apple's software development lately (Lion, iTunes Match, Maps) but this apology makes me feel a little better about them acknowledging mistakes and working to fix it. I know they obviously have the in-house talent, they just need to get quality control back to mid-2000s form. Hopefully this dust-up over maps wakes them up.
IanDrake 14y ago
Now I'm convinced Apple is in trouble. It's not in Apple's DNA to apologize. Jobs would have said "We are building the most revolutionary mapping system ever created. This is an active endeavor and if it doesn't currently meet your needs we have at least 100 other mapping apps in the app store." And then Jobs wouldn't have said anything else about the subject and moved on. The reality distortion field is fading fast with Cook in charge. Jobs would have made everyone think they're part of a mapping revolution. Cook has allowed everyone to think they got ripped off.
- siglesias 14y ago
  Oh please. 1) http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/ http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/ 2) http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-apology-adds-30-days-to-existing-subscriptions/ http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-apo... To name a couple. Let's take a deep breath. It's going to be okay.
  - IanDrake 14y ago
    The first one isn't a technical problem. And the second isn't from Jobs. Here's the problem. Apple's technology has flaws. Jobs was great at convincing people that flaws were features. I believe his ability was fundamental to their success. Cook admits flaws are flaws and this could slowly start to change people's perception of Apple's products.
- RutZap 14y ago
  I think that this "Jobs would have done" attitude is wrong and far from constructive. First of all Jobs wasn't a genius, wasn't a saint, he was a very good techy entrepreneur. I think this is the right move on from Apple; they messed up big time and now they apologised for it. And regarding Jobs.. get over it... he probably would have done a lot of things but he is sadly not among us anymore so stop guessing what he would have done or wouldn't have done.
robomartin 14y ago
What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented. Not one person posting on HN and the many blogs really knows what happened behind the scenes. Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know. So the question might very well be: Why did they do it? This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform. One just doesn't do that. Maintaining a complex code-base such as iOS is difficult enough. Adding to that the friction of delivering a substandard product is not something one does without very good reasons. Conjecture is all we have from the outside. My humble guess is that it had to come down to a business deal they did not want to make. The details of the deal are not important. Who was right and who was wrong isn't important. What is important is that whatever they had in front of them convinced Apple management that it they had no choice but to, effectively, downgrade the next release with Maps. I already know of a lot of non-tech people, particularly outside the US, who are livid about Maps. After dutifully upgrading their devices to iOS 6 they discover that Maps are, in their words, "crap", "useless", "unreliable", "a joke", "not accurate", "una mierda" (shit), etc. The reason for the strong feelings is that, let's face it, if a good tool such as Google Maps is available to you, you might tend to use it. And a lot of people would use it all the time. My own wife relies on Google Maps all the time. Thankfully she was wise enough to marry a geek who promptly told her not to upgrade her iPhone 4S to iOS 6 and not to swap it out for an iPhone 5. In fact, not one person in my family will do either of those things. And that is the case --that has to be the case-- for millions of people at this point. This is the data we are not getting and that Apple will probably never release. I own eight iOS devices. Not one of them will be upgraded to iOS 6. In fact, the upgrades stop here until either Maps starts to get really good marks. And, of course, we probably would have purchased at least three iPhone 5's. Not happening. I'll get one for development but it will not be activated. How many millions are in this boat? If someone is a heavy Google Maps user it makes no sense to get an iPhone 5. What's wrong with a 4S? Nothing. Use their website you say? Not the same, most would say. As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice. As a user and a developer I view iOS 6 as a significant, if not huge, step backwards. Between Maps and the eviscerated app store one has to ask that cliche-ish question: What were they thinking? Wouldn't we like to know.
at-fates-hands 14y ago
I'm thinking Apple didn't want to partner with Microsoft simply out of pride. After all the years Jobs and Gates went at each other, there's still legions of people on both sides who will never use the other companies products. Just for the record, the Bing Mobile Maps application is top notch. I've used it frequently and the quality of the maps and interaction is slightly above the Android Google version.
cheeseprocedure 14y ago
Wow. When was the last time Apple officially recommend another company's product as a workaround?
StJobsFromGrave 14y ago
STEVE JOBS WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED THIS!
riffic 14y ago
Zero mention of mass transit directions.
markshepard 14y ago
Is it really true that there are 100 million devices using ios6 already?
mcantelon 14y ago
>we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up. Or pay Google.
dustingetz 14y ago
i wonder if this came from a top-down directive "ship on schedule or don't bother." something like Marissa Mayer said this week[1]. GLHF. [1] http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Marissa-Mayer-Tells-Yahoo-Employees-Products-Must-3898967.php http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Mar...
fierarul 14y ago
A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta. Apple isn't known for releasing beta products so I think it's not a wonder they are noticing the consumers backlash. I won't be upgrading to iOS6 until I have Google Maps.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta. A product that doesn't get better as people use it is dead.
jballanc 14y ago
I think what they say about "Internet time" and the length of people's memories might be correct. This is, in fact, very in keeping with Apple's character. Apple doesn't often screw up, but when they do, they will definitely own up to it. (Keeping in mind that your buddy Joe or some high-priced analyst claiming that Apple screwed up is not the same thing as them actually screwing up...) See, for example, four years ago when they issued an apology and a free account extension for the launch of MobileMe: http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html
4as198sGxV 14y ago
Buy TomTom (people seem to like their app for iOS). Swap the current data for the one used by TomTom in their app. Problem solved.
checoivan 14y ago
I think it was a good thing. No, the maps aren't perfect, but neither were gmaps( though way more polished). I can remember a the times where gmaps sent me to some random location. 3D generation is HARD, compare it with the google earth or maps and apple's shows more resolution,less artifacts. 3D was always a cool side feature despite the glitches in other programs and maybe the bad idea was integrating this into the main experience of one of the most used apps. They added some awesome features but in the end people just want maps that work, and eye candy doesn't trump that. They could have taken the typical route trying to brainwash customers with ads or PR releases, the CEO talking about the best product ever w/o believing, instead I admire that they took the rout of "We did a great effort, you didn't like it, sorry and we'll make a bigger effort until you do". In the end all the effort ,features, and niceties doesn't matter if people simply doesn't like it.
acdha 14y ago
Around here (Washington DC) Apple's maps aren't much different that Google's as far as address matching - in several queries, considerably better even - but there's a huge gap in all of the ancillary data. I live near a park with a city rec center, pool, sports fields, etc. and a public high school. A little testing showed the following: Google Maps: correctly labels all of the above, including building outlines OpenStreetMaps: correctly labels everything but the school, but they do have building outlines and even parking lots marked. Bing: nothing but the school name labeled at the nearest intersection rather than correctly in the middle of the [long] block. Apple, Nokia, Map Quest: featureless void
mycodebreaks 14y ago
Let me refer to IE here. IE gets shipped with Windows. Many(actually, too many) users don't like using it and install & use Chrome, Firefox etc. Let's hope that Apple plays fair game and lets Google, Bing and other Maps applications compete with Apple Maps. If Apple Maps app can't become/remain the most popular app in the category for any number of reasons, Apple Maps will get reduced to a product which is forced on to users.
tonycoco 14y ago
Anyone else think Apple Maps just isn't that bad. I used it for a trip from Chicago to Wisconsin and it worked out perfectly. I guess I'm just not that interested in people with problems with Apple Maps in China or small German towns. Here in the midwest US it seems to work just fine and find everything that GMaps used to. I actually like the Yelp! review integration as well. Oh well! I suppose I'm the only one to know that this software is driven by a service which, in time, will most definitely improve exponentially with use.
- hazov 14y ago
  I live in São Paulo, one of the greatest cities in the world and here the maps are shit. In London where I was Friday it's also shit. Both are not your average small German town. For driving directions it's basically TomTom. You're not interested but I am, and not everyone live in a car.
EGreg 14y ago
I think we can see it all over iOS 6: Google probably screwed Apple by not renewing their YouTube and Maps contracts. It's painful for Apple to break free of Google. But if it successfully does this, it will become a true competitor to Google on several fronts. The question is, can their brand survive the backlash? My guess is YES. Their coffers are huge. They will hire and catch up in these areas -- and afterwards probably start to innovate. Most of all, they have some of the greatest designers and branding people there. Google is mostly about engineers. But right now I think it was Google who stuck it to Apple, not the other way around.
brodytodd 14y ago
I am disappointed a bit at Mr.Cook's recommendations. I think that some of the major problems with Apple Maps exists outside the United States. I am in Canada, and there was a problem from the get go with maps (well documented, I won't go into it). None of the solutions recommended in this letter are good solutions. Loading a webpage adds how many different steps to getting an address, Bing and Mapquest are not available in the Canadian store, and Waze looks like a cheap gimmick to me(first impressions, it may be a good product). I don't want to jump on the 'look at Apple falling' bandwagon, but this is a major blow to their reputation. I can appreciate the letter, but don't offer recommendations in your apology that don't work, that makes you look actually incompetent.
zacwitte 14y ago
Yeah the apple maps were disappointing but the apology letter yields to the masses. It doesn't show leadership. Always look forward.
esschul 14y ago
Probably is really nice to be on the apple-map-team team right now. They get pushed in delivering something, then probably gets a nice "you suck and you should feel bad for making us look bad"-reception from everyone. I don't know about you guys, but I for one think someone ought to give these guys a pat on the back and a pitcher of beer with a note saying "this too shall pass".
zerohm 14y ago
Adding "Steve Jobs would have never..." to my list of meaningless cliches alongside "perception is reality" and "it is what it is".
mey 14y ago
Does anyone else find irony that Tim Cook shares a last name with James Cook? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cooks+map https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cooks+map
hhimanshu 14y ago
I miss Steve, this would never had happened if he was there
keypusher 14y ago
Create a custom icon that goes to the Google Maps homepage? That's really they suggested solution? Wow...
shreeshga 14y ago
i wonder how so they test maps? I mean, there cant be test cases for every major co-ordinates. Probably Apple fucked up in their maps testing.
shreeshga 14y ago
i wonder how so they test maps? I mean, there cant be test cases for every major co-ordinates. Probably Apple fucked up in their maps testing.
samstokes 14y ago
or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their websites "Please take a look at our competitors, and learn to associate their brands with the subpar web versions of their mapping software."
arihant 14y ago
I actually prefer the way the new Maps look, specially when I am walking. As a photographer I do end up in the wild often and the new Maps is just better and more fluid to browse the surroundings, specially in satellite. If only it had the data..or a way to pull in Foursquare locations.
wanghq 14y ago
Seriously, that's not the only apology apple should make. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-ios-6-caching-ajax-results http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-ios...
y4m4 14y ago
Apple time to make some friends :-)
brandoncapecci 14y ago
Slipping in download statistics in an apology - oh Apple - you are selling even when you are apologizing.
kalleboo 14y ago
Apple should have released these maps as a free beta in the App store 6 months before iOS 6 was released. People would have gotten their laughs off the bad data out, but Apple could brush them off as "it's just a beta", and they'd have 6 months to fix the most egregious issues, and third parties can get local transit apps ready. Then when iOS 6 replaces the Maps app, even if it's not up the level of Google Maps, it's no longer news, and there's no huge backlash.
EGreg 14y ago
What can I say, the problems under Jobs weren't as obvious. He was able to spin it. Apple's maps application is just provably worse in terms of maps. Period. There is not much to spin there. It was obvious. Apple shipped an iPhone without YouTube and without Maps. The whole set of decisions, including the form-factor, seems very un-Jobs-like. However, owning up to the problem is something I applaud Cook for doing. Not only that, but look at what he suggests -- adding web apps to the desktop. Because he knows that once they fix the Maps app (by getting a better database), it will be superior to web apps! Notice what Tim Cook did not say: download the alternative APPLICATIONS. Are there any?
inthe90s 14y ago
What's so funny about all of this is that the functionaliity at issue is so basic. It's 1990's. Remember getting door to door directions from Mapquest and print them out? Now add text-to-speech. Now add lots and lots of hype, branding, smaller form factor, etc., etc. This is door-to-door directions and text-to-speech. Perhaps greatly improved since the 90's, but certainly not new or cutting edge. This is the type of stuff Apple, the world's wealthiest company, cannot get right. Because it's not their focus. They do not focus on something as simple as directions. That is just raw facts, nothing creative. No magic. Apple focusses on other things. Design. But if I just want to go from A to B and need directions, fast, I really don't give a shit about design. Apple cultists might. I don't. Well, if you are an Apple cutltist, you won't be getting simple accurate directions the way the guy using Google, or Mapquest, or ..., is able to get them.
teeja 14y ago
Jobs knew one thing: Quality is job one. If it wasn't quality, it wasn't included. Maybe this helps them remember that.
fafner 14y ago
The Apple Map street data is based on OSM. I haven't used Apple Maps so far. But is Apple using an old dataset or is OSM simply bad in some regions? I've heard that there were some problems like Apple rendering some forest roads as normal streets and so on. Because in my experience the OSM data is quite good and even better than the Google Maps data. But then again I life in a populated area with probably a large number of OSM contributors. And is Apple giving anything back to OSM? E.g. data or money?
dschiptsov 14y ago
Without Jobs Apple is mere Microsoft..)
dizzystar 14y ago
I don't own an iPhone and never used one, but reading the comments is surprising. I didn't realize how bad the Google Maps app was for iPhone, ie. no turn-by-turn, large ads, et.al. I'm rather shocked that people are complaining so much about this one app in the entire iOS ecosystem and if their lives depended so much on maps that they now refuse to upgrade to iOS6 over it, what were they paying $300+ awful reception (in Los Angeles) per phone for the past several iterations for when you can get an Android w/ turn-by-turn for $50? Why the current maps is what they are is left to conjecture, but I wonder that if there was a push-back about no turn-by-turn and lower quality maps for the past, idk, 2 years, if Apple would have released their new version of maps. I never got the impression that Apple listened to or cared too much about what their customers wanted, nor do I think they have the required data abilities to deal with creating a good mapping algorithm. It is quite possible, that with zero to little feedback about no turn-by-turn, that iOS meant far more to the customer than maps. As a passive observer, I am wonder why maps alone is creating so much push-back. Isn't there something special about iOS that moves people to spend their hard-earned money on each next device, often with no convincing improvements, sight-unseen?

620 points by j4mie 14y ago

Issue a defective product and crowd source data to perfect it. Pathetic approach. We miss you Steve

I wonder....contrast the relatively polished release of OS X mountain lion (yes, it had a few hiccups, but overall, pretty smooth) under Federighi (and potentially with Serlet lineage) with iOS 6, with its ambitious but flawed features, skeuomorphic design, etc. What is going on in the mind of Scott Forstall?

cicloid 14y ago

This should be view on the same grounds as the scolding from Jobs to the MobileMe group when it launched. The alternatives are almost the same as when it launched. Even having those. How many are having real problems or just hating because is the new fad?

TheOnly92 14y ago
Well actually regardless of that, Apple is a brand that people trust, and of course there are times that Apple might fail and we criticize because we trust they can do a better job. To me it's much better that "this product is shit" than "ah it's apple, what do you expect?".
atourgates 14y ago
The other day I got my iPhone 5 on the mail, but it wouldn't activate because of a SIM card error. So, I get it the car, look up the closest Verizon store on Apple maps using my old iPhone, and drive there. I end up at a run down strip mall with no Verizon store in sight. So, I load up Google maps is Safari, and it finds and takes me to an actual Verizon store about 3 miles away. So yes, people are having actual problems with Apple maps.
- chucknelson 14y ago
  This type of stuff happened with Google maps too, but everyone seems to forget that. A year or so ago in Houston I was following Google maps to a theater and ended up in the middle of some suburban neighborhood. Let's just all remember that the old maps app was not flawless.
  - llimllib 14y ago
    My main use for my phone is maps. Using the Google Maps app, this never happened to me in hundreds and hundreds of routes. Using the ios6 maps app for the first time, to locate a verizon store to go and order my iphone 5, it failed to find a Verizon store I knew was there from previous research. I had to settle for mapping the street and finding the store myself. I'm not saying the old maps app didn't do that to you, just that the rate of that sort of occurrence, given the evidence I've seen, was much lower in ios5 maps than it is in ios6.
    - dpark 14y ago
      I can't compare against iOS 6, because I haven't updated my phone. But I did indeed have Google drop me off in the wrong place several times. I had it send me into the suburbs of Bellevue looking for a Home Depot that didn't exist. Last week it sent me 4 blocks away from the restaurant I was looking for (and told me it was on the wrong side of the road, a common issue with Google Maps). I still think the new Maps has notable issues from everything I've read, but Google-based Maps was by no means perfect.
- pohl 14y ago
  The question was not whether there exist people who are having problems. Rather, it was "how many?" How much of this is the self-selected sample of those who are irritated enough to complain? Data is not he plural of anecdote.
  - uxp 14y ago
    There very well can be a communications cascading effect as well. How many people complaining right now about iOS 6 Maps are doing so because their friends are. Just as it's cool to be the one with the new iPhone 5, it's also cool to be one of the one's that is late to the appointment because your Maps app told you to take a left instead of a right. You're one of the crowd, and you have something different. Maybe they should have released Maps as a downloadable app. Maybe they should have waited another year. Maybe they should have... They didn't and outside of transit* there is nothing that is absolutely terrible about the app. It's immature, sure, but it's not the worst thing to happen to the international community since the invention of the atomic weapon. * If you know any objective-c and are complaining about the lack of transit options, contact your local public transportation authority and develop an app on your own.
iaskwhy 14y ago
In London I am used to check the Maps app almost everyday. Problems I had so far: - I am still waiting to get a correct location when searching by post code. - Searching by the street name sometimes gives me that same street name somewhere in the USA even with the GPS on and map centered on my current location. - I was in Holborn centered on my location, searched for a Nando's, it told me to go up that same street. Turns out it was down, wrong location for that Nando's. - It is much more difficult to differenciate between an underground and a rail station since they look almost the same unlike Google Maps or Bing Maps. I have been using Google Maps mobile web app and the Bing native app with good results. Still a step backwards because both are much slower than the old Maps. So yes, people are having real problems. Small edit: I don't trust the new maps data anymore, that's the biggest problem though.
rrreese 14y ago
I live in the United Kingdom, and can say that the new maps are a vast downgrade. Central London seems OK, but outside that there are numerous problems. Off the top of my head areas that I have visited lately have no high detail satellite, satellite photos with clouds or points of interest in the wrong place or not existing at all. This isn't some hypothetical problem, this is going from maps I use all the time with success, to maps that have become vastly less useful.

bdfh42 14y ago

This is not just an "end user" problem it is a developer problem. Our "hyper local" app looks (and is) terrible on iOS6 but runs just fine on iOS5 (with Google mapping). iOS was the choice for the lead mobile platform but with iOS6 take up levels running high we may have to switch to Android to be able to demonstrate all of our ideas.

chucknelson 14y ago
Looks terrible? I don't think the look of the new maps is under much criticism. I thought the general consensus was "pretty but not as functional"?
- ruswick 14y ago
  Although the app's lack of proper search and laughable location plotting, my chief issue with the new Maps is the aesthetic, which I consider to be unequivocally inferior to Google Maps.
  - nicholassmith 14y ago
    I swing the other way, I think it looks much better in many ways. I much prefer the typography and a few other design touches.
    - mikeash 14y ago
      I agree. The new Maps looks really nice, it just isn't very useful. IMO it's a great example of form over function.
- metatation 14y ago
  It's unusably terrible for some people (like me). Apparently I now live on the moon: http://cl.ly/image/3q3v262G3P2s http://cl.ly/image/3q3v262G3P2s
- vilya 14y ago
  I find it harder to read. In particular, it's a lot harder to distinguish icons for useful things like train/tube stations from icons I don't care about like wine bars.

tghw 14y ago

We launched Maps initially with the first version of iOS. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up. Google already did all of this. It's just that Apple wouldn't let them include those features on iOS. This is rather blatant lying.

dakotasmith 14y ago
I believe the we in "we wanted to provide our customers" is Apple, not Apple and Google. Hyperbolic to call it blatant lying.
- tghw 14y ago
  I believe it is blatant lying because they went out of their way to prevent their customers from having those features, even though they were readily available on other platforms through their established partner. It's also rather dishonest to say that they had to build something new from the ground up. They had other options (namely Google), which would have served their customers better.
  - wklauss 14y ago
    They had to if they considered that what Google was asking was unreasonable. For all we now Google might have asked for things Apple was not comfortable giving them, starting with user data and all the way up to co-branding.
  - jwoldan 14y ago
    Actually, from everything I've read, it appears Google refused to allow Apple to implement those features (see, for example, http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple-google-maps-talks-crashed-over-voice-guided-directions/ http://allthingsd.com/20120926/apple-google-maps-talks-crash...). Google wanted to keep those features exclusive to Android maps.
  - dakotasmith 14y ago

tammer 14y ago

I don't think I realized what an actual issue this is... Cook isn't speaking to people who have been following this debacle since the beta, he's speaking to people who think the only way to get location info is through the "maps" button on their phone. Let's hope, for the sake of those people at least, Apple can get some better data.

lewisflude 14y ago

As far as I'm concerned, apology accepted. [ assuming this is an apology of course ]

jug6ernaut 14y ago
An apology should never have to be inferred, with that said expecting a full out apology from apple is asking a lot, not that it isn't warranted.
- fredoliveira 14y ago
  No need to infer. From the letter: "We are extremely sorry"
  - lewisflude 14y ago
    Sorry for themselves?
    - arrrg 14y ago
      “With the launch of our new Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are extremely sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers and we are doing everything we can to make Maps better.” That’s a proper apology. No dodging, no sidestepping, no shifting of the blame. We screwed up, we are sorry for the problems that caused, we are doing everything we can to fix this.
      - lewisflude 14y ago
        It's very well written, but I don't doubt that the entire message came directly from the PR department. Anyway, the proof is in the pudding, as they say, so let's see what they do.
        arrrg 14y ago
        Uhm, sure. I’m not sure what your point is, though. Of course Tim Cook has people to help him write that. Of course he didn’t just walk into his office, wrote this and sent it off without consulting anyone. Do you think the PR department is incapable of writing apologies?

eggbrain 14y ago

What I want to know is -- why did they release the app in the state that it was in vs partnering with someone like Microsoft? Let's assume that Apple's contract with Google was ending soon, and that Google had failed to deliver features for Apple (turn by turn, etc), meaning Apple wanted to go a different direction. Sure, Apple then started buying up mapping companies, building their own product, but they must have known they were on a tight schedule. My question is -- why didn't they partner with Microsoft to use Bing maps? Microsoft gets a huge win in that suddenly 40 million people are using their service. Apple gets a win in that they have a pretty comparative product out of the gate to Google Maps, and it gives them time to build up their own service. But instead, Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they had before. Where's the logic in that?

Cadsby 14y ago
Part of the rationale for cutting ties with Google Maps seems to have been to avoid being reliant on a major competitor for core functionality. Partnering with Microsoft would simply have been trading one competitor for another. Presumably this is the same reason they didn't partner with Nokia either.
kmfrk 14y ago
It could be the Goldilocks problem for Apple with their own - supposedly - high bar for quality that made them end up with their own vastly inferior product. I imagine we'll see some scoops on the inside baseball in a few weeks.
TetOn 14y ago
They don't want to partner with anybody. All that would do is recreate the problem they faced with Google: losing control and sooner or later negatively affecting user experience as New Partner Co. begins to favor its interests over whatever future interests Apple may or may not have. Far better to rip the band-aid off now, tune the dataset over time, and ultimately emerge with a better overall experience that you now control completely. Already the system-wide integration of mapping is far superior in that regard. That just wasn't going to happen with Google or any other partner which would forever live as a walled garden of an App. Inaccurate mapping data is, after all, a (relatively) finite problem.

HNaTTY 14y ago

Sounds like Tim Cook thinks that good maps are a chicken-and-egg problem. You can't correct bad maps without users reporting inaccuracies, and you can't get people to use inaccurate maps. So you force it on them, and then start fixing everything that gets reported. Crowdsourcing.

fcoury 14y ago

It would be nice if they approved Google's Map application for the time being as a great alternative. The lack of that option is what is holding me back in iOS 5...

nicholassmith 14y ago
Google hasn't even submitted an app,that's been confirmed.
- Johngibb 14y ago
  I didn't know it had been confirmed yet, can you add a link?
nexneo 14y ago
They can't approve Google's map application, until google submit one.
brown9-2 14y ago
Is there any indication there is a Maps app from Google awaiting approval? I thought the consensus was that Google is scrambling to build one now. This sounds like speculation.
dbau 14y ago
The reports I've read indicate that Google are still working on their iOS Maps App so I don't believe there is anything for Apple to simply approve right now.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
stordoff 14y ago
According to Reuters[1], Google haven't submitted an app yet. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/25/us-google-iphone-idUSBRE88O07U20120925 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/25/us-google-iphone-i...

ajanuary 14y ago

> While we’re improving Maps, you can try alternatives by > downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest > and Waze, or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their > websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their > web app. I was quite surprised they listed competitors. Is this an unusual move or a normal/expected thing to do in a case like this?

denzil_correa 14y ago

Great to see this letter from Tim Cook. When was the last time such a letter was written by a CEO?

lovamova 14y ago
Jobs. Antennagate.
- denzil_correa 14y ago
  Do you have a link to a letter which says signed by Steve Jobs? The OP link is signed by Tim Cook CEO, Apple.
  - lovamova 14y ago
    Yes, two actually. [1] http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/ http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/ [2] http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-Regarding-iPhone-4.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-...
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
doomlaser 14y ago
Not branded as from Steve Jobs himself, but this is very reminiscent of the 'Antennagate' letter Apple issued after the introduction of the iPhone 4: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-Regarding-iPhone-4.html http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2010/07/02Letter-from-Apple-...
- ConstantineXVI 14y ago
  Hardly the same. It starts off by essentially saying "b-but everyone else does it!", and nothing even remotely close to "we fell short on this commitment" or "We are extremely sorry".

markshepard 14y ago

Considering that Apple knew that every single aspect of its software will come under scrutiny, Releasing the software in this state indicates callous attitude towards the users. Do I believe that the software will improve? Yes.. eventually. I know in enterprise software provides like IBM tend to ship hardware with incomplete software and rely in service packs to complete the functions.And if Apple thinks that the same model will work for Consumer products, then they are plain wrong.

eddieroger 14y ago

A fun anecdote regarding Maps. I was talking with a friend of mine last night on the iPhone. She was complaining that her iPhone was working poorly, and she was frustrated with it. I asked if she had updated to iOS 6 yet, since sometimes a restore cycle can clear things up. She told me, no, she wasn't, because she heard maps were terrible. I said, "did you hear they are terrible, or have you used them and think they're terrible?" She said she heard only. Interestingly, though, she said she had been using turn-by-turn with "a voice telling her when to turn." I asked her to go to Settings and check, and sure enough, she had updated and actually liked new Maps. I don't deny that new Maps aren't at the level that GMaps were, but they're not really that terrible, either. Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad, at least in my experience, and has improved since the betas.

lmm 14y ago
>Unless you required a feature that is gone now (transit, which I don't), then it's really not so bad I think this is another example of the biggest general complaint about apple Maps, that it's too US-centric. Here in Europe a mapping program that can't do transit is a joke.
- mikeash 14y ago
  That's true in many places in the US as well. We have plenty of big cities with well-developed public transportation, after all.
- arrrg 14y ago
  So like Google Maps in Germany, then, eh? Google Maps never had any transit info in Germany. It never was a joke, it always was awesome (even if always fraught with problems and errors).
mikeash 14y ago
Un-fucking-believable. The CEO of Apple has come right out and admitted that Maps is sub-par, and the Apple fans are still trying to pretend that the problems are not real.

rodh 14y ago

Apple has built a reputation of only releasing products that were absolutely completed and quality controlled. From my understanding, the company ethos has been that any defect, no matter how small, would result in the product being delayed. Speaking from my own perspective, admission or not, I think it's the break in that expectation that has me disappointed.

cbs 14y ago
I don't know how to respond to this other than "lol". Apple often releases products that many consumers would consider "incomplete". The only difference is that Apple never admitted to being wrong ever. Their branding depends on being seen as shiny software company-upon-a-hill. That's the only difference here, they admitted to making a bad decision. Their little spat with google just made this an unusually bad one; one that they couldn't paper over.
- smacktoward 14y ago
  You will notice that the name at the bottom of this Apple letter is different than the name that appeared at the bottom of previous Apple letters. This change may have some connection to their new willingness to admit having made a mistake.
- hughw 14y ago
  Right. It took them a lot longer to reluctantly admit anything went wrong in antennagate, and their apology lacked conviction.
- rodh 14y ago
  That's the key, when you said "many" consumers would consider past products incomplete: it's quite subjective whether to call a product complete or incomplete. They would never admit to wrongdoing because there'd always be some way for them to argue otherwise. As I mention in my other follow-up comment here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586212 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4586212, the difference in this case is that the product is objectively incomplete: the data itself is measurably bad.

StacyC 14y ago

This is how you do it. Well done, Mr Cook.

josteink 14y ago
Having some standards and providing a working maps app before release would be my definition of "how to do it", but maybe I'm missing something here. Obviously Apple knew their solution was shit, but they released it anyway, hoping people wouldn't mind too much. That was their choice and now they have to deal. This is not dealing.

digitalengineer 14y ago

Crazy thing is according to TomTom there is no problem in the actual map data they provided. (I think they're right. I've driven across Europe without major problems using TomTom. There were no complaints about the TomTom App according to the 4.5 star reviews). According to TomTom, Appel combines their data with data from other sources and Apple has a problem combining/rendering the data... http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-idUSL5E8KLHPX20120921 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-...

arrrg 14y ago
I don’t think turn-by-turn (what TomTome provides) is the problem. That seems to work like a charm (at least it does for me). I get excellent TomTom-level quality here in Germany, plus the great (best of breed) traffic info from TomTom. For me, search and POIs are slightly dysfunctional and some labels are out of whack – both of that, however, doesn’t seem to have any impact on my turn-by-turn experience. So I can believe that TomTom is not to blame here.
- jmelloy 14y ago
  It also could suggest that the .1 version will be a significant upgrade if the underlying date's good but it's being parsed wrong/deprioritized for OSM data/etc. Better than if the underlying data is wrong, anyway.
smackfu 14y ago
I haven't really heard many complaints about the quality of the road data. Like that turn-by-turn is telling you to go the wrong-way down one way streets, or make a turn that isn't allowed. (In contrast, I've had Waze tell me to turn left off of an interstate highway onto an underpass road. Because no one had set that as a disallowed turn. That's bad map data.)

steve8918 14y ago

From a purely competitive standpoint, this is why Google should be releasing their Google Maps app immediately, and if Apple drags their feet, they should launch a lawsuit to force them to do so. First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google. Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them, it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they did with Microsoft. Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive disadvantage for years.

salman89 14y ago
I disagree. PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android. It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store. It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I wonder if a court feels the same way. Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done. Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.
- rimantas 14y ago
  > Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has > considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google > (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. No. First of all new maps is feature of iOS6 which is no in hands of more than 50% of iOS users not feature of iPhone 5. Second, there are other places in the world where new maps app is as good or better than old one was. And we finally got turn-by-turn navigation. > They've never been a data company as it is They've never been mobile phone makers before iPhone too, remember? "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in". Let's not forget their map-related acquisitions and partnership with companies in the field.

catfish 14y ago

At Orange, we strive to make world-class products that deliver the best experience possible to our customers. Except when we feel that someone else is doing it better in which case we strive to eliminate the obviously superior product from our walled garden. With the launch of our shitty Maps last week, we fell short on this commitment. We are sorry for the frustration this has caused our customers but we are doing everything we can to make shitty Maps better, except to provide you what you want right now, a working map. We launched shitty Maps initially with the first version of Orange. As time progressed, we wanted to provide our customers with even better shitty Maps including features such as really bad directions, never understands your voice integration, Flyover the wrong location and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of shitty Maps from the ground up, and though its not ready for prime time we are so worried about our competition that we dumped them prematurely from our walled garden and forced this abomination on you. There are already more than 100 million Orange devices using the new shitty Maps, with more and more joining us every day. And you know that this is because we reduced your choice to our inferior product, which is what we have the right to do since we own your phone and you don't. In just over a week, Orange users with the new shitty Maps have already searched for nearly half a billion locations and some actually did find a few locations. The more our customers use our Maps the sooner we will make another billion dollars and we greatly appreciate the fact you have no real choice now that you have our phone in your pocket. While we’re improving shitty Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the Orange Store, but good luck finding them as we also created a new nightmare in our Apps store that makes replacing our shitty apps more difficult than ever. We know that the huge majority of Orange users won't have a clue as to what we mean by bookmarking, and of course that is just fine with us. Just use our maps anyway, just like we planned. Everything we do at Orange is aimed at making our products the only product you use. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until EVERYONE in our walled garden is tired of the BS and gets an Android.

fredoliveira 14y ago
I don't see how your comment contributes to any meaningful discussion of this topic. I truly don't.

verelo 14y ago

This is pathetic. I'm surprised no one has hit them up with a false advertising claim over their phone not providing what they wanted (directions, in many cases transit directions) I've not heard a single person using apple maps say "this is good", every single person states its a downgrade. Apple need to get their act together and realize what they've done is lost a major set of consumer confidence here and should do everything in their power to set the situation right. I for one was about to do the switch from Android to iphone with the iphone 5 coming out. After seeing apple maps, i've decided that i'll probably just buy the new Nexus when it comes out. Maps are the most important app on my phone besides the dialer and text messaging...not having maps thats anything less than what i've got today is simply not something i'm willing to negotiate. Google will and should do nothing, this is all completely in their favor at this point. IOS might just have taken its first fatal blow.

Someone 14y ago
For what it is worth, IOS maps has more recent satellite images and more recent road maps from the centre of the city where I live than maps.google.com (the data from maps.google.com will happily show a continuous road that, nowadays, is only an entry to a parking garage) The IOS 5 app has what looks like the same satellite data as maps.google.com, but even older road topology (it lacks the detour you need to not end up in that garage) So, from the (tiny) part I checked, IOS 6 has better maps than IOS 5. It may be worse on average, but how would a user objectively evaluate a map app that covers the world?
- verelo 14y ago
  I think the lack of transit directions, poor blending of map images (http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/505cae6969bedd427a000012-413-310/apple-maps.png http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/505cae6969bedd427a0...) and the overall lack of detail is a massive reason to consider it a downgrade. If you're honestly happier with this product then thats cool, but i'm not.
  - Someone 14y ago
    Happier? No. For my uses, both apps are adequate. I do not use maps apps often, and I if do, it is the old-fashioned way: look at the map before I leave, possibly make a screen dump to make sure I'll have some map avaiable on the road, and use that screen dump if necessary to get where I need to be. I will, at some time, miss street view, though. Reading discussions, I also learnt and verified that iOS 6 location search is lousy (I think it doesn't know enough about statitics, or doesn't have enough statistical data (yet?). If one searches for, e.g. 'central station', it will happily return hits such as 'Starbucks central station' or 'the X hotel, central station' in favor of the actual train station. It should know that, when in doubt, it should go for the most often sought for hits)

drewjoh 14y ago

I found this week the true extent of how terrible the new iOS Maps is, when I needed to find a hospital. We needed to go to the ER in the middle of the night, and were stuck waiting at a particular hospital that was nearest to us. I knew there was another, better hospital with a better reputation down the freeway (perhaps 5 miles) and wanted to call to ask what their wait time was. I searched "hospital" and the nearest one provided was 25 miles away. I knew where the one I wanted was and it was no where to be found on iOS Maps. I also searched for "emergency clinics" in various naming forms, knowing of the ones I would try first… and again, came up empty of all the ones that I knew existed. I now have a shortcut to Google Maps on my home screen and will only use iOS maps for turn-by-turn directions. I was very frustrated to begin with that night, and Apple disaster of a Map app didn't help.

factorizer 14y ago

The real question is: douchebags or losers? I'm going for a combination of both.

Revex 14y ago

I can't believe Apple is essentially saying, "Whoops, my bad, here try some other stuff while we fix out mistake." It is really kind of surreal. But good on them for being candid. I almost lost it when they said to add Google maps as a web app. That seriously made me groan out loud.

ilamont 14y ago

I think this is a case where user testing with Apple employees or a trusted focus group failed. For something like maps, which is inherently focused on widely diverse geographies, road setups, and use cases, having just a few hundred testers (most of them in the Bay Area) won't reveal the problems for 99%+ of iPhone owners who live somewhere else.

madewulf 14y ago

Am I the only one to think that such an apology requires guts and honesty? Kudos for that.

madewulf 14y ago

Am I the only one to think that such an apology requires guts and honesty? Kudos for that.

padobson 14y ago

Who thought we'd ever see an Apple CEO actually telling customers to use a competing product to something Apple made while they were the CEO?

skyebook 14y ago

So basically, Tim Cook says: "Use it! Or don't." It would've been nice to see OpenStreetMap get some mention though, as users who think OSM sucks can improve it and indirectly improve iOS maps at the same time.

spinchange 14y ago
I would like to know more about this. It's completely not mentioned in the conversation (not just Tim's apology) at all. I know the new app incoroprates traffic data from Waze but they don't talk about OSM involvement at all.

vbl 14y ago

Now I need a letter apologizing about the finish chipping off and the total lack of cases in the marketplace.

eyko 14y ago

He's so full of shit.

MojoJolo 14y ago

He doesn't mention OpenStreet Map as an alternative!

jasonkolb 14y ago

He didn't address why they couldn't release them side-by-side for a year or so to get feedback on the new product before relying on it as the sole bundled maps product.

jusben1369 14y ago

Hmmm. Contrite lasted two paragraphs before we got some defiant bragging about just how great Apple is with "There's already 100 million users!!" Just in case we wondered whether an inflated sense of self importance might have helped contribute to this fiasco ;-) What should they have said? Simply "The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get and we greatly appreciate all of the feedback we have received from you" would have gotten the point across.

w_t_payne 14y ago

I really did think that Apple had a policy of never apologizing. It seems that I was wrong. A great deal of kudos to Tim Cook for the apology. Perhaps an end to Apple's monumental hubris and arrogance is in sight?

zerostar07 14y ago
That's what apple sells, a brand. Once they become commodity, it's all gone.

electic 14y ago

More than this letter, I would love if they update their product page as well and remove the "Amazing Maps" section from their website.

josteink 14y ago

IOW: Apple admits iOS maps is a complete failure. It least they didn't pretend otherwise, like with mobileme.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

I wonder if they considered re-licensing with Google for a while and releasing their own 'App' in the App Store to compete. It would get downloaded if only because it had turn by turn and the licensed product did not. Then offering people perhaps some perks for helping improve it, allowed it to live side by side with Google's maps until it was ready to take over.

stephenhuey 14y ago

Someone was telling me only a couple of days ago about a time when Google Maps guided her to a nonexistent building out in the middle of nowhere next to some farm field in Pennsylvania. That story and some of my own Google Maps Fail experiences wouldn't scare me off of Google Maps since the tool, although sometimes mistaken, is much better than what I used to navigate back in the 90s! Reminds me of Louis C.K. joking about people complaining about not being able to get on WiFi when they're magically sitting in a chair 30,000 feet up in the sky. Apple wanted to build a mapping tool, and they'd probably get complaints from folks on here no matter whether they started with an excellent data source or whether they broke from their tradition and took a gutsy move that might hurt the user experience for a while. :)

tarr11 14y ago
Standards are much higher for maps than when Maps was new (just as they are for planes) You wouldn't want Apple building iPlane this way, right?
- stephenhuey 14y ago
  I will give you that. My iPhone 4 is actually still on iOS 5 because I've felt hesitant and wanted to hear more feedback before I downloaded the upgrade. But I can honestly say that Google Maps has failed me and others many times, so it'd be interesting to know if the "failure" rates of the two mapping solutions are closer than one might expect, and that people are just posting the Apple ones online because iOS 6 is under more scrutiny at the moment.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

fotoblur 14y ago

Curious, I've heard many times now that by simply using Apples new mapping app it will get better when more people use it. I have yet to understand how that process works. Can anyone elaborate? Thanks.

petegrif 14y ago

It's great that he apologized, but it shouldn't have been a surprise. The problems that I have had are so gross, so blindingly obvious, that the most cursory use would have revealed problems. Hence he cannot of himself used the product, which is kinda sad.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

saiko-chriskun 14y ago
they cut their contract with google....
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

harywilke 14y ago

I wonder how long till apple makes something similar to google's mapmaker. watch map edits in real time for a while and you'll see the power of local people for fixing a lot of map issues. http://www.google.com/mapmaker/pulse http://www.google.com/mapmaker/pulse

jdechko 14y ago

I'm fortunate enough to live in an area with pretty good coverage by the new Maps. I'm also savvy enough to point out errors, as I'm sure most people on HN and other various tech sites are. I'm not saying that it isn't a big stumble for Apple, because it is, but it's only going to get better (not that it can get much worse for some). Apparently maps are hard. Apple already knows this, and most of us are figuring this out too. But Apple have the resources to make it better, and I am willing to help. This move was inevitable for Apple; it had to happen sooner or later, and the longer they waited, the bigger the gap they'd have to make up to be "on par" with Google Maps. And Apple should start with a web interface to the maps. It would make correcting data a lot easier.

tharris0101 14y ago

Obviously the maps app should never have been released. Beta testing showed that it had issues. I give props to Tim Cook, though. Steve Jobs would have never apologized like this. I'm worried about Apple's software development lately (Lion, iTunes Match, Maps) but this apology makes me feel a little better about them acknowledging mistakes and working to fix it. I know they obviously have the in-house talent, they just need to get quality control back to mid-2000s form. Hopefully this dust-up over maps wakes them up.

IanDrake 14y ago

Now I'm convinced Apple is in trouble. It's not in Apple's DNA to apologize. Jobs would have said "We are building the most revolutionary mapping system ever created. This is an active endeavor and if it doesn't currently meet your needs we have at least 100 other mapping apps in the app store." And then Jobs wouldn't have said anything else about the subject and moved on. The reality distortion field is fading fast with Cook in charge. Jobs would have made everyone think they're part of a mapping revolution. Cook has allowed everyone to think they got ripped off.

siglesias 14y ago
Oh please. 1) http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/ http://www.apple.com/hotnews/openiphoneletter/ 2) http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-apology-adds-30-days-to-existing-subscriptions/ http://www.applegazette.com/dotmac/apple-issues-mobileme-apo... To name a couple. Let's take a deep breath. It's going to be okay.
- IanDrake 14y ago
  The first one isn't a technical problem. And the second isn't from Jobs. Here's the problem. Apple's technology has flaws. Jobs was great at convincing people that flaws were features. I believe his ability was fundamental to their success. Cook admits flaws are flaws and this could slowly start to change people's perception of Apple's products.
RutZap 14y ago
I think that this "Jobs would have done" attitude is wrong and far from constructive. First of all Jobs wasn't a genius, wasn't a saint, he was a very good techy entrepreneur. I think this is the right move on from Apple; they messed up big time and now they apologised for it. And regarding Jobs.. get over it... he probably would have done a lot of things but he is sadly not among us anymore so stop guessing what he would have done or wouldn't have done.

robomartin 14y ago

What to say? The fact that such a public letter had to be issued means that there's a lot of push-back. Apple just doesn't do that. In fact, I don't remember any software company doing this. I could be wrong. This feels unprecedented. Not one person posting on HN and the many blogs really knows what happened behind the scenes. Apple engineers are not known for being dumb. Someone had to know that Maps was a bad idea. A huge step backwards. They had to know. So the question might very well be: Why did they do it? This couldn't have been out of spite. Just to kick Google off the platform. One just doesn't do that. Maintaining a complex code-base such as iOS is difficult enough. Adding to that the friction of delivering a substandard product is not something one does without very good reasons. Conjecture is all we have from the outside. My humble guess is that it had to come down to a business deal they did not want to make. The details of the deal are not important. Who was right and who was wrong isn't important. What is important is that whatever they had in front of them convinced Apple management that it they had no choice but to, effectively, downgrade the next release with Maps. I already know of a lot of non-tech people, particularly outside the US, who are livid about Maps. After dutifully upgrading their devices to iOS 6 they discover that Maps are, in their words, "crap", "useless", "unreliable", "a joke", "not accurate", "una mierda" (shit), etc. The reason for the strong feelings is that, let's face it, if a good tool such as Google Maps is available to you, you might tend to use it. And a lot of people would use it all the time. My own wife relies on Google Maps all the time. Thankfully she was wise enough to marry a geek who promptly told her not to upgrade her iPhone 4S to iOS 6 and not to swap it out for an iPhone 5. In fact, not one person in my family will do either of those things. And that is the case --that has to be the case-- for millions of people at this point. This is the data we are not getting and that Apple will probably never release. I own eight iOS devices. Not one of them will be upgraded to iOS 6. In fact, the upgrades stop here until either Maps starts to get really good marks. And, of course, we probably would have purchased at least three iPhone 5's. Not happening. I'll get one for development but it will not be activated. How many millions are in this boat? If someone is a heavy Google Maps user it makes no sense to get an iPhone 5. What's wrong with a 4S? Nothing. Use their website you say? Not the same, most would say. As a developer there's a lesson that needs reinforcing every-so-often. What better way to reinforce it than to see a tech giant make some of the mistakes lesser companies make: If you can at all help it, don't base your product on someone else's technology. Don't make someone else's technology such an important part of your offering that not having them will hurt you. Of course, sometimes you have no choice. As a user and a developer I view iOS 6 as a significant, if not huge, step backwards. Between Maps and the eviscerated app store one has to ask that cliche-ish question: What were they thinking? Wouldn't we like to know.

at-fates-hands 14y ago

I'm thinking Apple didn't want to partner with Microsoft simply out of pride. After all the years Jobs and Gates went at each other, there's still legions of people on both sides who will never use the other companies products. Just for the record, the Bing Mobile Maps application is top notch. I've used it frequently and the quality of the maps and interaction is slightly above the Android Google version.

cheeseprocedure 14y ago

Wow. When was the last time Apple officially recommend another company's product as a workaround?

StJobsFromGrave 14y ago

STEVE JOBS WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED THIS!

riffic 14y ago

Zero mention of mass transit directions.

markshepard 14y ago

Is it really true that there are 100 million devices using ios6 already?

mcantelon 14y ago

>we wanted to provide our customers with even better Maps including features such as turn-by-turn directions, voice integration, Flyover and vector-based maps. In order to do this, we had to create a new version of Maps from the ground up. Or pay Google.

dustingetz 14y ago

i wonder if this came from a top-down directive "ship on schedule or don't bother." something like Marissa Mayer said this week[1]. GLHF. [1] http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Marissa-Mayer-Tells-Yahoo-Employees-Products-Must-3898967.php http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Mar...

fierarul 14y ago

A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta. Apple isn't known for releasing beta products so I think it's not a wonder they are noticing the consumers backlash. I won't be upgrading to iOS6 until I have Google Maps.

MartinCron 14y ago
A product that gets better as people use it is basically a beta. A product that doesn't get better as people use it is dead.

jballanc 14y ago

I think what they say about "Internet time" and the length of people's memories might be correct. This is, in fact, very in keeping with Apple's character. Apple doesn't often screw up, but when they do, they will definitely own up to it. (Keeping in mind that your buddy Joe or some high-priced analyst claiming that Apple screwed up is not the same thing as them actually screwing up...) See, for example, four years ago when they issued an apology and a free account extension for the launch of MobileMe: http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html http://www.macworld.com/article/1134530/mobileme.html

4as198sGxV 14y ago

Buy TomTom (people seem to like their app for iOS). Swap the current data for the one used by TomTom in their app. Problem solved.

checoivan 14y ago

I think it was a good thing. No, the maps aren't perfect, but neither were gmaps( though way more polished). I can remember a the times where gmaps sent me to some random location. 3D generation is HARD, compare it with the google earth or maps and apple's shows more resolution,less artifacts. 3D was always a cool side feature despite the glitches in other programs and maybe the bad idea was integrating this into the main experience of one of the most used apps. They added some awesome features but in the end people just want maps that work, and eye candy doesn't trump that. They could have taken the typical route trying to brainwash customers with ads or PR releases, the CEO talking about the best product ever w/o believing, instead I admire that they took the rout of "We did a great effort, you didn't like it, sorry and we'll make a bigger effort until you do". In the end all the effort ,features, and niceties doesn't matter if people simply doesn't like it.

acdha 14y ago

Around here (Washington DC) Apple's maps aren't much different that Google's as far as address matching - in several queries, considerably better even - but there's a huge gap in all of the ancillary data. I live near a park with a city rec center, pool, sports fields, etc. and a public high school. A little testing showed the following: Google Maps: correctly labels all of the above, including building outlines OpenStreetMaps: correctly labels everything but the school, but they do have building outlines and even parking lots marked. Bing: nothing but the school name labeled at the nearest intersection rather than correctly in the middle of the [long] block. Apple, Nokia, Map Quest: featureless void

mycodebreaks 14y ago

Let me refer to IE here. IE gets shipped with Windows. Many(actually, too many) users don't like using it and install & use Chrome, Firefox etc. Let's hope that Apple plays fair game and lets Google, Bing and other Maps applications compete with Apple Maps. If Apple Maps app can't become/remain the most popular app in the category for any number of reasons, Apple Maps will get reduced to a product which is forced on to users.

tonycoco 14y ago

Anyone else think Apple Maps just isn't that bad. I used it for a trip from Chicago to Wisconsin and it worked out perfectly. I guess I'm just not that interested in people with problems with Apple Maps in China or small German towns. Here in the midwest US it seems to work just fine and find everything that GMaps used to. I actually like the Yelp! review integration as well. Oh well! I suppose I'm the only one to know that this software is driven by a service which, in time, will most definitely improve exponentially with use.

hazov 14y ago
I live in São Paulo, one of the greatest cities in the world and here the maps are shit. In London where I was Friday it's also shit. Both are not your average small German town. For driving directions it's basically TomTom. You're not interested but I am, and not everyone live in a car.

EGreg 14y ago

I think we can see it all over iOS 6: Google probably screwed Apple by not renewing their YouTube and Maps contracts. It's painful for Apple to break free of Google. But if it successfully does this, it will become a true competitor to Google on several fronts. The question is, can their brand survive the backlash? My guess is YES. Their coffers are huge. They will hire and catch up in these areas -- and afterwards probably start to innovate. Most of all, they have some of the greatest designers and branding people there. Google is mostly about engineers. But right now I think it was Google who stuck it to Apple, not the other way around.

brodytodd 14y ago

I am disappointed a bit at Mr.Cook's recommendations. I think that some of the major problems with Apple Maps exists outside the United States. I am in Canada, and there was a problem from the get go with maps (well documented, I won't go into it). None of the solutions recommended in this letter are good solutions. Loading a webpage adds how many different steps to getting an address, Bing and Mapquest are not available in the Canadian store, and Waze looks like a cheap gimmick to me(first impressions, it may be a good product). I don't want to jump on the 'look at Apple falling' bandwagon, but this is a major blow to their reputation. I can appreciate the letter, but don't offer recommendations in your apology that don't work, that makes you look actually incompetent.

zacwitte 14y ago

Yeah the apple maps were disappointing but the apology letter yields to the masses. It doesn't show leadership. Always look forward.

esschul 14y ago

Probably is really nice to be on the apple-map-team team right now. They get pushed in delivering something, then probably gets a nice "you suck and you should feel bad for making us look bad"-reception from everyone. I don't know about you guys, but I for one think someone ought to give these guys a pat on the back and a pitcher of beer with a note saying "this too shall pass".

zerohm 14y ago

Adding "Steve Jobs would have never..." to my list of meaningless cliches alongside "perception is reality" and "it is what it is".

mey 14y ago

Does anyone else find irony that Tim Cook shares a last name with James Cook? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cooks+map https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cooks+map

hhimanshu 14y ago

I miss Steve, this would never had happened if he was there

keypusher 14y ago

Create a custom icon that goes to the Google Maps homepage? That's really they suggested solution? Wow...

shreeshga 14y ago

i wonder how so they test maps? I mean, there cant be test cases for every major co-ordinates. Probably Apple fucked up in their maps testing.

shreeshga 14y ago

i wonder how so they test maps? I mean, there cant be test cases for every major co-ordinates. Probably Apple fucked up in their maps testing.

samstokes 14y ago

or use Google or Nokia maps by going to their websites "Please take a look at our competitors, and learn to associate their brands with the subpar web versions of their mapping software."

arihant 14y ago

I actually prefer the way the new Maps look, specially when I am walking. As a photographer I do end up in the wild often and the new Maps is just better and more fluid to browse the surroundings, specially in satellite. If only it had the data..or a way to pull in Foursquare locations.

wanghq 14y ago

Seriously, that's not the only apology apple should make. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-ios-6-caching-ajax-results http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12506897/is-safari-on-ios...

y4m4 14y ago

Apple time to make some friends :-)

brandoncapecci 14y ago

Slipping in download statistics in an apology - oh Apple - you are selling even when you are apologizing.

kalleboo 14y ago

Apple should have released these maps as a free beta in the App store 6 months before iOS 6 was released. People would have gotten their laughs off the bad data out, but Apple could brush them off as "it's just a beta", and they'd have 6 months to fix the most egregious issues, and third parties can get local transit apps ready. Then when iOS 6 replaces the Maps app, even if it's not up the level of Google Maps, it's no longer news, and there's no huge backlash.

EGreg 14y ago

What can I say, the problems under Jobs weren't as obvious. He was able to spin it. Apple's maps application is just provably worse in terms of maps. Period. There is not much to spin there. It was obvious. Apple shipped an iPhone without YouTube and without Maps. The whole set of decisions, including the form-factor, seems very un-Jobs-like. However, owning up to the problem is something I applaud Cook for doing. Not only that, but look at what he suggests -- adding web apps to the desktop. Because he knows that once they fix the Maps app (by getting a better database), it will be superior to web apps! Notice what Tim Cook did not say: download the alternative APPLICATIONS. Are there any?

inthe90s 14y ago

What's so funny about all of this is that the functionaliity at issue is so basic. It's 1990's. Remember getting door to door directions from Mapquest and print them out? Now add text-to-speech. Now add lots and lots of hype, branding, smaller form factor, etc., etc. This is door-to-door directions and text-to-speech. Perhaps greatly improved since the 90's, but certainly not new or cutting edge. This is the type of stuff Apple, the world's wealthiest company, cannot get right. Because it's not their focus. They do not focus on something as simple as directions. That is just raw facts, nothing creative. No magic. Apple focusses on other things. Design. But if I just want to go from A to B and need directions, fast, I really don't give a shit about design. Apple cultists might. I don't. Well, if you are an Apple cutltist, you won't be getting simple accurate directions the way the guy using Google, or Mapquest, or ..., is able to get them.

teeja 14y ago

Jobs knew one thing: Quality is job one. If it wasn't quality, it wasn't included. Maybe this helps them remember that.

fafner 14y ago

The Apple Map street data is based on OSM. I haven't used Apple Maps so far. But is Apple using an old dataset or is OSM simply bad in some regions? I've heard that there were some problems like Apple rendering some forest roads as normal streets and so on. Because in my experience the OSM data is quite good and even better than the Google Maps data. But then again I life in a populated area with probably a large number of OSM contributors. And is Apple giving anything back to OSM? E.g. data or money?

dschiptsov 14y ago

Without Jobs Apple is mere Microsoft..)

dizzystar 14y ago

I don't own an iPhone and never used one, but reading the comments is surprising. I didn't realize how bad the Google Maps app was for iPhone, ie. no turn-by-turn, large ads, et.al. I'm rather shocked that people are complaining so much about this one app in the entire iOS ecosystem and if their lives depended so much on maps that they now refuse to upgrade to iOS6 over it, what were they paying $300+ awful reception (in Los Angeles) per phone for the past several iterations for when you can get an Android w/ turn-by-turn for $50? Why the current maps is what they are is left to conjecture, but I wonder that if there was a push-back about no turn-by-turn and lower quality maps for the past, idk, 2 years, if Apple would have released their new version of maps. I never got the impression that Apple listened to or cared too much about what their customers wanted, nor do I think they have the required data abilities to deal with creating a good mapping algorithm. It is quite possible, that with zero to little feedback about no turn-by-turn, that iOS meant far more to the customer than maps. As a passive observer, I am wonder why maps alone is creating so much push-back. Isn't there something special about iOS that moves people to spend their hard-earned money on each next device, often with no convincing improvements, sight-unseen?