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> You can just buy new, for the same or lower price But, like the article says, new EVs are selling for about twice as much as a 2-year-old used vehicle of the

> You can just buy new, for the same or lower price But, like the article says, new EVs are selling for about twice as much as a 2-year-old used vehicle of the same make and model. That's a very very far cry from "same or lower price".

BoredPositron 1y ago
My dad had to make the same decision and he was too vary because of the battery. He talked about his phone and that it doesn't last a day anymore while at 84% health after three years and translated it 1to1 to the car. Its hard to argue with people if they have a reference point but don't understand the differences. I guess most people just want that initial warranty for now. Are there any manufactures that give long warranties on the battery yet?
- TGower 1y ago
  Yeah, pretty much all of them have long battery warranties. Tesla for example garuntees >=70% capacity for 8 years or 100k miles.
  - BeetleB 1y ago
    > Tesla for example garuntees >=70% capacity for 8 years or 100k miles. If you're used to buying used vehicles - that's not sufficient. For context, all the cars I've bought in the last 20+ years have been at least 8 years old when I bought them. I can get an 8 year old Toyota/Honda and know I'm good for the next 5-7 years.[1] Buying an 8 year old used Tesla with only 75% capacity? No way. [1] Likely a lot longer. I'm right now driving a 22 year old vehicle that only started showing issues a year ago.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - mulmen 1y ago
      The warranty doesn’t suggest the battery will be at 70.00001% on the first day of year 9. It says if it goes below 70% it will get replaced. That 8 year old Toyota you bought came with a 6 year/60k mile warranty. If you are comfortable driving that to 2.5x the initial warranty then a used Tesla should be good to 250k and 20 years.
      - BeetleB 1y ago
        > The warranty doesn’t suggest the battery will be at 70.00001% on the first day of year 9. It says if it goes below 70% it will get replaced. The point is that they're not confident enough to say it won't be in that range. Put another way, why don't they just make the warranty 80% instead of 70%? If Tesla's not confident in it, I definitely am not. > That 8 year old Toyota you bought came with a 6 year/60k mile warranty. If you are comfortable driving that to 2.5x the initial warranty then a used Tesla should be good to 250k and 20 years. We hope so, but we don't know, which is the point. Toyota has a track record. Tesla hasn't been around long enough to have a track record. That aside, the real point is that ICE cars don't have any particular component that costs that much to replace. How much will a new EV battery cost me? Sure, on occasion you may have to rehaul your whole engine, but that's really rare. I've only known one Toyota owner who had to do that, and it cost (in today's dollars), about $6K. When I buy an 8 year old car, I don't expect perfection. I know things will break - soon. I buy it with the confidence that repairs will not be too expensive, and even after all the repairs I'll still save a ton of money. The other blocker is the private party market. So far I've never bought a car from a dealer. I always go private party. The standard procedure with that is you take the car to a trusted mechanic who will examine it and inform you of any potential problems. With electric vehicles, those mechanics can't do much. I've asked them. They can look at a few things like the brakes, but stuff related to the engine is beyond their ability. So whereas I may be comfortable spending a lot of money buying an ICE car from private party, I'm not for EVs.
        mulmen 1y ago
        Why doesn’t Toyota make their powertrain warranty 80k miles? Or 200k? The warranty is there to cover failures. If a pack has a defect it will drop under 70%. If it doesn’t then it will continue working beyond the warranty term. You’re assuming linear decay and that Tesla has fit the warranty coverage tightly to that line. It seems more likely to me that Teslas warranty is designed to address unexpected exponential decay. This is consistent with ICE powertrain warranties.
    - bcrosby95 1y ago
      This. We have two cars. One is 8 years old. That's old right? The other is 18 years old. Neither have had major issues.
    - LeifCarrotson 1y ago
      I'm in the same boat, or was until I finally caved last year and got my wife a 5 year old vehicle, everything else has had >150k miles and >10 years. I will say that my '03 Pontiac Vibe GT, at 280,000 miles, no longer has all the horses it did when it was younger. There's still a kick from 6000 to 8200 RPM, but I'm increasingly reluctant to hit that redline once a month to "keep it fresh" like I used to. The gradual compression loss and increased leak-down rate aren't that bad, but it might be 25% fewer horses, I guess. Man, I love that car and that engine. I ought to get it a new set of rings, get the cylinders bored out smooth, and give it fresh bearings. Sadly, the rust that's appearing on the body like a cancer probably makes that not worthwhile... The good news for electrics is that those older motors will remain almost exactly as powerful as they day when they were new for decades. Obviously, the fuel tank is still the same size it's always been, but range is not as much of a concern on a gas vehicle because gas stations are everywhere and you can fill up rapidly. I personally hope that this becomes less of a concern as charger density improves year over year - in particular, as EVs become ubiquitous, landlords will start including L2 chargers in apartment parking complexes. Once everyone can charge in a garage overnight, range anxiety is hugely less important.
      - yibg 1y ago
        > 03 Pontiac Vibe GT So a Toyota :)
    - ricardobeat 1y ago
      Fuel efficiency on an ICE can drop up to 30% after 10 years... the end result is the same. But that's not on anyone's mind when buying a used car.
      - maxerickson 1y ago
        I have a 2013 CRV with a EPA combined mileage of 25 mpg (AWD): https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2013_Honda_CR-V.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2013_Honda_CR-V.shtm... I get combined mileage of 26 mpg. That's a short daily commute and a couple trips a month to a town ~70 miles away. I haven't taken particularly stellar care of it.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - nomel 1y ago
        > the end result is the same. Absolutely not. This completely ignores the relatively high initial range of ICE (especially hybrid), and the poor real world state of the EV charging infrastructure, compared to petrol. A 30% drop in range would be an extra 5 minutes at the nearest gas station, almost guaranteed to be within a couple miles. And, that 30% is usually cheap to get back, usually just by some combination of changing the spark plugs, running a bottle of carbon removal/fuel system cleaner through, or changing the fuel injectors. I have an electric, but I also understand why people are avoiding electric, and why 96% of people with EV also have an ICE car [1] (including me, with my newest being ICE)! [1] https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/11/10/the-stat-that-says-what-96-percent-wont-admit/ https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/11/10/the-stat-that-say...
      - ragingregard 1y ago
        "Fuel efficiency on an ICE can drop up to 30% after 10 years" Complete nonsense. Every 15+ year old ICE car I've known or owned was within 5% to 10% of original fuel economy, the reliable brands actually maintained their original fuel economy or surpassed it as fuel economy improves as engine wear in completes at the 20k-40k mile mark. If your ICE car dropped by 30% then share the brand and your maintenance history.
      - 1y ago
    - turtlebits 1y ago
      TCO is way important than range. You'll likely spend thousands less on maintenance on an EV. The few oil changes on my recently out of warranty 2021 Toyota have already cost more than the entire maintenance spend on my 2017 Bolt.
      - jandrewrogers 1y ago
        Range is often a hard requirement, it isn’t optional. The TCO is infinite if your vehicle can’t take you where you need to go.
      - BeetleB 1y ago
        > You'll likely spend thousands less on maintenance on an EV. I don't spend many thousands on maintaining an ICE to begin with. I've kept track of all car expenses since 2008 for 3 different cars. My average per year is $445. This is repairs and maintenance. I'm not a gearhead. I know little about cars. I do whatever repairs my mechanic suggests. Things just don't break down much with reliable ICE cars. TCO calculators are, in my experience, off by an order of magnitude. Ignore them. > The few oil changes on my recently out of warranty 2021 Toyota Are you doing them at the dealer? You're likely paying too much. And are you doing them on the manufacturer schedule or have you fallen prey to the "Every 3 months or 3000 miles" propaganda? Most cars need it every 6 months. And unless your car needs some high quality oil, it's typically about $40 to get a regular mechanic to change it. So $80-100/year.
      - Broken_Hippo 1y ago
        I have a car over 20 years old. I don't spend much money on maintenance. I don't have a car payment, taxes are very low, and insurance is decently cheap. Had it for a few years, have replaced brakes and some minor things. Didn't spend much on the vehicle, either. Having a car payment would automatically be more expensive than my current vehicle. More taxes, more money each month, and so on. For electric cars, I won't get the incentives here in Norway for much longer, as they are being (mostly) phased out in the next few years. To be fair, though: I walk a lot. I have a 5-10 minute walk to work (depending on snow). Driving takes longer. The car is used a few times a month. Realistically, my car is a luxury item and I'm lucky to live in a place that makes it so.
    - amatecha 1y ago
      Oh yeah, my daily driver is a 20-year-old vehicle. It has cost literally just a couple $thousand in maintenance/repairs in the time we've owned it (probably around 10 years? I forget). It's getting kinda rough, but like... at least it doesn't have a battery replacement looming around the corner that would cost more than the entire price we paid for the vehicle. I want an electric vehicle, but I'm not willing to pay the insanely high prices they go for. I typically don't want to spend more than $10k on a vehicle and I only have once (and that one got totalled in an accident literally a month or two after I finished paying off its loan). The times I've found a used EV in that price range, it's old enough that it will need a new battery soon, instantly ~doubling the price of the vehicle for me.
  - avgDev 1y ago
    8 years or 100k miles is bare minimum I would expect a car to last without major repair work. These cars are not worth a lot after the warranty ends because the battery replacement cost exceeds the value of the car.
    - coredog64 1y ago
      100k is a regulatory minimum. E.g. Toyota had to certify the original Prius traction batteries for 100k because they were considered part of the emissions control system.
  - scythe 1y ago
    >long battery warranties. My 2009 Prius is still running at 231k, for reference.
    - cbm-vic-20 1y ago
      A Prius with only 50% of its battery capacity available is in much better shape than a Tesla with only 50% of its battery capacity.
      - HPsquared 1y ago
        And an early Leaf with 50% of its battery capacity is almost useless.
        Loudergood 1y ago
        Early air cooled leafs aren't doing anyone any favors when talking about battery aging.
        hcknwscommenter 1y ago
        I think the numbers of those early leafs (a lot were sold), their horribly degraded batteries, and their consequently low sales price make the numbers appear a bit more dire for resale EVs as a whole than they are in reality (breakdown loss of resale value by model and other EVs are doing much better). However, I think it is also true that EV resale values are lower than they perhaps should be due to used battery fears.
        coredog64 1y ago
        There are a bunch of California-only compliance cars that were essentially given away that would depress the values in the sector. I considered picking up a used Fiat 500e, but even though it was electric, FCA still managed to mess it up and a common recommendation was to keep a few specific tools in the back that enabled quickly disconnecting and reconnecting the battery.
        pornel 1y ago
  - JKCalhoun 1y ago
    I'd rather they guarantee a fairly inexpensive replacement. When electrics can already give you range anxiety, 70% capacity is a deal-breaker.
    - rootusrootus 1y ago
      Batteries are getting cheaper, and I think there is a perception issue here as well as perhaps a real issue of used parts availability. A brand new Model 3 battery pack, for example, is in the neighborhood of 10 or 11K installed. Or at least it was about a year ago, I don't closely track prices. Blow up an engine, and you won't be far off that in an ICE car. I know someone who just dropped $18K because they blew up both the engine and the transmission in a single shot. Oops. But the ICE car has cheaper used options, for sure, where you can probably fix a 15 year old car by dropping in a reman or used engine for under five grand. Options for used Tesla battery packs definitely exist but are nowhere as plentiful. Yet!
      - everfrustrated 1y ago
        There are heaps of scrapped Tesla's and used batteries are absolutely an option.
  - rurp 1y ago
    100k isn't all that many for a modern used car and that's a pretty sizable hit on the range given that it's by far the biggest limitation of an EV. Given those numbers it's reasonable that a used Tesla with say 125k miles might not be able to do a 150 mile round trip on a full battery. That's a pretty big limitation for some people.
    - rootusrootus 1y ago
      You're going off the minimum for a warranty replacement, which is pessimistic. Most Teslas with 125K miles have not lost anywhere even close to 30% of the capacity. Typical will be more like 15% or a bit less. And even less than that for the LFP cars, IIRC. Some cars I expect to do much better, due to manufacturer decisions. Ford, for example, put a pretty big battery in my Lightning, and then made the top 10kWh or so unusable. So far, this means that Lightnings with 100K miles (there aren't a huge number of them yet, but they do exist) often have 0 apparent degradation, or very low single digits.
  - redmajor12 1y ago
    With ICE cars, typically manufacturer warranties only are valid for the original purchaser.
    - encom 1y ago
      That must be a US specific thing, because that sounds demented.
      - rootusrootus 1y ago
        It is untrue in the US. Manufacturer warranty follows the car. And it does so automatically, it is tied to the VIN and not whoever has the title.
        vel0city 1y ago
        Eh, its kind of mixed. Some manufacturers like Hyundai have essentially a baked in extended warranty (10y 100,000mi) that is non-transferrable, only the base warranty (5y 60,000mi) gets transferred.
    - SirMaster 1y ago
      That's never been my experience... I just got a repair on my 2023 Camry that I bought used. It was covered under the 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. I have had previous cars repaired under manufacturer warranty and I always buy used. I just take it to the nearest certified dealer for that brand of car and they take care of it.
- stalfosknight 1y ago
  Tesla has an 8 year battery and motor warranty.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    All well and good but 8 years isn't that old for a car. I don't even look at cars that new. I start at 10+ years old. The drivetrain on any car should last 20 years if it's not abused and given reasonable care and even if you end up needing to replace the engine or transmission that's a few thousand dollars on an older car. What would a new battery on a 10 year old Tesla cost you? Can you even buy one?
    - JKCalhoun 1y ago
      > Can you even buy one? I would like to think 1) that the answer is yes and 2) that the price in fact come down over time as battery tech gets cheaper, markets of scale, etc. Maybe some startup needs to go into the battery replacement market for specific popular models of 8+ year old EVs.
    - micromacrofoot 1y ago
      Average lifespan of a car in the US is 16 years, warranty covers half of that. Given the lowest acceptable threshold for capacity under some warranties (70%) and assuming linear degradation, a 16 year old EV would have 40% capacity (worst case). Given a typical range of 250 for EVs today, that would put you at ~110 miles on a charge. Seems like it would be a fine car to me given the age. I'd also expect battery swaps to become more common as the industry ages, which will drive prices down.
- HPsquared 1y ago
  That perception means you can get a good deal on a used EV.
- j1elo 1y ago
  A very rough estimate for phone batteries is that they last 1000 recharge cycles. If on average you recharge every day, that's 300+ charges a year, and there you go, an expected life of 3 years. That phone is up for a battery replacement. Just like oil or wheels need to be replaced in a car. Now, how many charges does a car battery do, and how frequently it tends to need one? The same calculation from phones can indeed be translated to cars, the only mistake is translating the end results of the calculation. Maybe that helps with your father?
potatolicious 1y ago
> and get something way better. The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product. Think back to the early smartphone days - every year phones multiplied in performance, in screen resolution, etc. In that environment a used item is less attractive because you feel like you're missing out on features/capability. This keeps used prices down. Nowadays used smartphones are more competitive because the rate of advancement (that buyers care about at least) has slowed. For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices.
- PunchyHamster 1y ago
  > The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product. And 2 years old EV is not twice as bad as current one > For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices. The previous gen is 8 years old. It took 8 years to "double" the quality, not 2
  - potatolicious 1y ago
    Listen, I'm literally just describing basic market dynamics here - my post is not intended as an endorsement of plainly observable phenomena. The depreciation/utility curve has always been aggressive no matter what product you're buying. Is a 2 year-old ICE car twice as bad as a new one? Is a 2 year-old TV? Clearly not, yet they are all worth that in the open market. For EVs the depreciation curve is especially aggressive because of perceived advancements. Are the advancements worth buying new? I dunno! You tell me - but this is clearly being reflected in the market. From a strict utilitarian standpoint, optimizing your depreciation/utility function should mean you're buying almost every single thing used. But yet lots of people don't do that. Humans are empirically not very good utilitarians!
ceejayoz 1y ago
> new EVs are selling for about twice as much as a 2-year-old used vehicle of the same make and model There's a saying that a new car loses 50% when you leave the lot. It's presumably still true for EVs.
- ianferrel 1y ago
  That saying has always been a huge exaggeration, though. The price of a barely-used car is usually single-digit percentage points lower than an actually new one.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- bhelkey 1y ago
  > There's a saying that a new car loses 50% when you leave the lot. New cars in no way lose half of their value when you drive them off the lot. The saying is that a new car loses ~10% of it's value when you drive it off the lot [1]. [1] https://www.carfax.com/buying/car-depreciation https://www.carfax.com/buying/car-depreciation
  - dessimus 1y ago
    Right or wrong, the _saying_ is that "a new car loses half its value as soon as you drive off the lot." I've heard that repeated from many people across multiple regions in regards to buying a new vehicle. I've always heard half, never 10%, even if 10% is the more demonstrable amount.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- bombcar 1y ago
  The 50% off the lot was always exaggerated, but it is nearly not true now at all - used prices for all cars have skyrocketed such that buying used is not nearly the deal it used to be. In fact, buying new is almost always the way to go now over lightly used (e.g., less than 5 or even 10 years old).
array_key_first 1y ago
Its a matter of perspective. EV are progressing fast so they lose value quick, like a laptop of the late 90s. Not quite as bad, but in those times, your computer was worth next to nothing in less than a year. ICE are stagnant. They retain their value because they're not improving at all.
- znpy 1y ago
  > ICE are stagnant. They retain their value because they're not improving at all. They aren't degrading either, though
  - theothertimcook 1y ago
    They are definitely degrading. Complex driver aid/“safety” systems, outrageously complicated “infotainment” systems that are also used to interact with system functions, sealed/un-serviceable transmissions, exhaust gas filtration and recirculating systems, these are all additional points of failure that represent a degradation on modern ICE cars. These cars won’t be around 20 years after manufacture in the same way Toyota Camry and Corolla are.
    - Consultant32452 1y ago
      I recently bought a fancy muscle car with all that crap integrated into the infotainment system. I explained to the sales guy that I WANTED to keep this car for the rest of my life but was concerned that wouldn't be possible. In 10 years it may literally be impossible to find a phone that will connect via the USB/bluetooth to the infotainment system. We may all be using something completely different. Not to mention, no one will be manufacturing replacements for that infotainment system if it ever craps out. You can go buy a 50 year old muscle car and upgrade the radio to something kind of modern. But that won't be possible with my car 50 years from now. It's too integrated. The sales guy had clearly never considered this issue before.
      - jacobgkau 1y ago
szundi 1y ago
[dead]
nick49488171 1y ago
This has always been the case for Maseratis.

BoredPositron 1y ago

My dad had to make the same decision and he was too vary because of the battery. He talked about his phone and that it doesn't last a day anymore while at 84% health after three years and translated it 1to1 to the car. Its hard to argue with people if they have a reference point but don't understand the differences. I guess most people just want that initial warranty for now. Are there any manufactures that give long warranties on the battery yet?

TGower 1y ago
Yeah, pretty much all of them have long battery warranties. Tesla for example garuntees >=70% capacity for 8 years or 100k miles.
- BeetleB 1y ago
  > Tesla for example garuntees >=70% capacity for 8 years or 100k miles. If you're used to buying used vehicles - that's not sufficient. For context, all the cars I've bought in the last 20+ years have been at least 8 years old when I bought them. I can get an 8 year old Toyota/Honda and know I'm good for the next 5-7 years.[1] Buying an 8 year old used Tesla with only 75% capacity? No way. [1] Likely a lot longer. I'm right now driving a 22 year old vehicle that only started showing issues a year ago.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - mulmen 1y ago
    The warranty doesn’t suggest the battery will be at 70.00001% on the first day of year 9. It says if it goes below 70% it will get replaced. That 8 year old Toyota you bought came with a 6 year/60k mile warranty. If you are comfortable driving that to 2.5x the initial warranty then a used Tesla should be good to 250k and 20 years.
    - BeetleB 1y ago
      > The warranty doesn’t suggest the battery will be at 70.00001% on the first day of year 9. It says if it goes below 70% it will get replaced. The point is that they're not confident enough to say it won't be in that range. Put another way, why don't they just make the warranty 80% instead of 70%? If Tesla's not confident in it, I definitely am not. > That 8 year old Toyota you bought came with a 6 year/60k mile warranty. If you are comfortable driving that to 2.5x the initial warranty then a used Tesla should be good to 250k and 20 years. We hope so, but we don't know, which is the point. Toyota has a track record. Tesla hasn't been around long enough to have a track record. That aside, the real point is that ICE cars don't have any particular component that costs that much to replace. How much will a new EV battery cost me? Sure, on occasion you may have to rehaul your whole engine, but that's really rare. I've only known one Toyota owner who had to do that, and it cost (in today's dollars), about $6K. When I buy an 8 year old car, I don't expect perfection. I know things will break - soon. I buy it with the confidence that repairs will not be too expensive, and even after all the repairs I'll still save a ton of money. The other blocker is the private party market. So far I've never bought a car from a dealer. I always go private party. The standard procedure with that is you take the car to a trusted mechanic who will examine it and inform you of any potential problems. With electric vehicles, those mechanics can't do much. I've asked them. They can look at a few things like the brakes, but stuff related to the engine is beyond their ability. So whereas I may be comfortable spending a lot of money buying an ICE car from private party, I'm not for EVs.
      - mulmen 1y ago
        Why doesn’t Toyota make their powertrain warranty 80k miles? Or 200k? The warranty is there to cover failures. If a pack has a defect it will drop under 70%. If it doesn’t then it will continue working beyond the warranty term. You’re assuming linear decay and that Tesla has fit the warranty coverage tightly to that line. It seems more likely to me that Teslas warranty is designed to address unexpected exponential decay. This is consistent with ICE powertrain warranties.
  - bcrosby95 1y ago
    This. We have two cars. One is 8 years old. That's old right? The other is 18 years old. Neither have had major issues.
  - LeifCarrotson 1y ago
    I'm in the same boat, or was until I finally caved last year and got my wife a 5 year old vehicle, everything else has had >150k miles and >10 years. I will say that my '03 Pontiac Vibe GT, at 280,000 miles, no longer has all the horses it did when it was younger. There's still a kick from 6000 to 8200 RPM, but I'm increasingly reluctant to hit that redline once a month to "keep it fresh" like I used to. The gradual compression loss and increased leak-down rate aren't that bad, but it might be 25% fewer horses, I guess. Man, I love that car and that engine. I ought to get it a new set of rings, get the cylinders bored out smooth, and give it fresh bearings. Sadly, the rust that's appearing on the body like a cancer probably makes that not worthwhile... The good news for electrics is that those older motors will remain almost exactly as powerful as they day when they were new for decades. Obviously, the fuel tank is still the same size it's always been, but range is not as much of a concern on a gas vehicle because gas stations are everywhere and you can fill up rapidly. I personally hope that this becomes less of a concern as charger density improves year over year - in particular, as EVs become ubiquitous, landlords will start including L2 chargers in apartment parking complexes. Once everyone can charge in a garage overnight, range anxiety is hugely less important.
    - yibg 1y ago
      > 03 Pontiac Vibe GT So a Toyota :)
  - ricardobeat 1y ago
    Fuel efficiency on an ICE can drop up to 30% after 10 years... the end result is the same. But that's not on anyone's mind when buying a used car.
    - maxerickson 1y ago
      I have a 2013 CRV with a EPA combined mileage of 25 mpg (AWD): https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2013_Honda_CR-V.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2013_Honda_CR-V.shtm... I get combined mileage of 26 mpg. That's a short daily commute and a couple trips a month to a town ~70 miles away. I haven't taken particularly stellar care of it.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - nomel 1y ago
      > the end result is the same. Absolutely not. This completely ignores the relatively high initial range of ICE (especially hybrid), and the poor real world state of the EV charging infrastructure, compared to petrol. A 30% drop in range would be an extra 5 minutes at the nearest gas station, almost guaranteed to be within a couple miles. And, that 30% is usually cheap to get back, usually just by some combination of changing the spark plugs, running a bottle of carbon removal/fuel system cleaner through, or changing the fuel injectors. I have an electric, but I also understand why people are avoiding electric, and why 96% of people with EV also have an ICE car [1] (including me, with my newest being ICE)! [1] https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/11/10/the-stat-that-says-what-96-percent-wont-admit/ https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/11/10/the-stat-that-say...
    - ragingregard 1y ago
      "Fuel efficiency on an ICE can drop up to 30% after 10 years" Complete nonsense. Every 15+ year old ICE car I've known or owned was within 5% to 10% of original fuel economy, the reliable brands actually maintained their original fuel economy or surpassed it as fuel economy improves as engine wear in completes at the 20k-40k mile mark. If your ICE car dropped by 30% then share the brand and your maintenance history.
    - 1y ago
  - turtlebits 1y ago
    TCO is way important than range. You'll likely spend thousands less on maintenance on an EV. The few oil changes on my recently out of warranty 2021 Toyota have already cost more than the entire maintenance spend on my 2017 Bolt.
    - jandrewrogers 1y ago
      Range is often a hard requirement, it isn’t optional. The TCO is infinite if your vehicle can’t take you where you need to go.
    - BeetleB 1y ago
      > You'll likely spend thousands less on maintenance on an EV. I don't spend many thousands on maintaining an ICE to begin with. I've kept track of all car expenses since 2008 for 3 different cars. My average per year is $445. This is repairs and maintenance. I'm not a gearhead. I know little about cars. I do whatever repairs my mechanic suggests. Things just don't break down much with reliable ICE cars. TCO calculators are, in my experience, off by an order of magnitude. Ignore them. > The few oil changes on my recently out of warranty 2021 Toyota Are you doing them at the dealer? You're likely paying too much. And are you doing them on the manufacturer schedule or have you fallen prey to the "Every 3 months or 3000 miles" propaganda? Most cars need it every 6 months. And unless your car needs some high quality oil, it's typically about $40 to get a regular mechanic to change it. So $80-100/year.
    - Broken_Hippo 1y ago
      I have a car over 20 years old. I don't spend much money on maintenance. I don't have a car payment, taxes are very low, and insurance is decently cheap. Had it for a few years, have replaced brakes and some minor things. Didn't spend much on the vehicle, either. Having a car payment would automatically be more expensive than my current vehicle. More taxes, more money each month, and so on. For electric cars, I won't get the incentives here in Norway for much longer, as they are being (mostly) phased out in the next few years. To be fair, though: I walk a lot. I have a 5-10 minute walk to work (depending on snow). Driving takes longer. The car is used a few times a month. Realistically, my car is a luxury item and I'm lucky to live in a place that makes it so.
  - amatecha 1y ago
    Oh yeah, my daily driver is a 20-year-old vehicle. It has cost literally just a couple $thousand in maintenance/repairs in the time we've owned it (probably around 10 years? I forget). It's getting kinda rough, but like... at least it doesn't have a battery replacement looming around the corner that would cost more than the entire price we paid for the vehicle. I want an electric vehicle, but I'm not willing to pay the insanely high prices they go for. I typically don't want to spend more than $10k on a vehicle and I only have once (and that one got totalled in an accident literally a month or two after I finished paying off its loan). The times I've found a used EV in that price range, it's old enough that it will need a new battery soon, instantly ~doubling the price of the vehicle for me.
- avgDev 1y ago
  8 years or 100k miles is bare minimum I would expect a car to last without major repair work. These cars are not worth a lot after the warranty ends because the battery replacement cost exceeds the value of the car.
  - coredog64 1y ago
    100k is a regulatory minimum. E.g. Toyota had to certify the original Prius traction batteries for 100k because they were considered part of the emissions control system.
- scythe 1y ago
  >long battery warranties. My 2009 Prius is still running at 231k, for reference.
  - cbm-vic-20 1y ago
    A Prius with only 50% of its battery capacity available is in much better shape than a Tesla with only 50% of its battery capacity.
    - HPsquared 1y ago
      And an early Leaf with 50% of its battery capacity is almost useless.
      - Loudergood 1y ago
        Early air cooled leafs aren't doing anyone any favors when talking about battery aging.
      - hcknwscommenter 1y ago
        I think the numbers of those early leafs (a lot were sold), their horribly degraded batteries, and their consequently low sales price make the numbers appear a bit more dire for resale EVs as a whole than they are in reality (breakdown loss of resale value by model and other EVs are doing much better). However, I think it is also true that EV resale values are lower than they perhaps should be due to used battery fears.
        coredog64 1y ago
        There are a bunch of California-only compliance cars that were essentially given away that would depress the values in the sector. I considered picking up a used Fiat 500e, but even though it was electric, FCA still managed to mess it up and a common recommendation was to keep a few specific tools in the back that enabled quickly disconnecting and reconnecting the battery.
      - pornel 1y ago
- JKCalhoun 1y ago
  I'd rather they guarantee a fairly inexpensive replacement. When electrics can already give you range anxiety, 70% capacity is a deal-breaker.
  - rootusrootus 1y ago
    Batteries are getting cheaper, and I think there is a perception issue here as well as perhaps a real issue of used parts availability. A brand new Model 3 battery pack, for example, is in the neighborhood of 10 or 11K installed. Or at least it was about a year ago, I don't closely track prices. Blow up an engine, and you won't be far off that in an ICE car. I know someone who just dropped $18K because they blew up both the engine and the transmission in a single shot. Oops. But the ICE car has cheaper used options, for sure, where you can probably fix a 15 year old car by dropping in a reman or used engine for under five grand. Options for used Tesla battery packs definitely exist but are nowhere as plentiful. Yet!
    - everfrustrated 1y ago
      There are heaps of scrapped Tesla's and used batteries are absolutely an option.
- rurp 1y ago
  100k isn't all that many for a modern used car and that's a pretty sizable hit on the range given that it's by far the biggest limitation of an EV. Given those numbers it's reasonable that a used Tesla with say 125k miles might not be able to do a 150 mile round trip on a full battery. That's a pretty big limitation for some people.
  - rootusrootus 1y ago
    You're going off the minimum for a warranty replacement, which is pessimistic. Most Teslas with 125K miles have not lost anywhere even close to 30% of the capacity. Typical will be more like 15% or a bit less. And even less than that for the LFP cars, IIRC. Some cars I expect to do much better, due to manufacturer decisions. Ford, for example, put a pretty big battery in my Lightning, and then made the top 10kWh or so unusable. So far, this means that Lightnings with 100K miles (there aren't a huge number of them yet, but they do exist) often have 0 apparent degradation, or very low single digits.
- redmajor12 1y ago
  With ICE cars, typically manufacturer warranties only are valid for the original purchaser.
  - encom 1y ago
    That must be a US specific thing, because that sounds demented.
    - rootusrootus 1y ago
      It is untrue in the US. Manufacturer warranty follows the car. And it does so automatically, it is tied to the VIN and not whoever has the title.
      - vel0city 1y ago
        Eh, its kind of mixed. Some manufacturers like Hyundai have essentially a baked in extended warranty (10y 100,000mi) that is non-transferrable, only the base warranty (5y 60,000mi) gets transferred.
  - SirMaster 1y ago
    That's never been my experience... I just got a repair on my 2023 Camry that I bought used. It was covered under the 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. I have had previous cars repaired under manufacturer warranty and I always buy used. I just take it to the nearest certified dealer for that brand of car and they take care of it.
stalfosknight 1y ago
Tesla has an 8 year battery and motor warranty.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  All well and good but 8 years isn't that old for a car. I don't even look at cars that new. I start at 10+ years old. The drivetrain on any car should last 20 years if it's not abused and given reasonable care and even if you end up needing to replace the engine or transmission that's a few thousand dollars on an older car. What would a new battery on a 10 year old Tesla cost you? Can you even buy one?
  - JKCalhoun 1y ago
    > Can you even buy one? I would like to think 1) that the answer is yes and 2) that the price in fact come down over time as battery tech gets cheaper, markets of scale, etc. Maybe some startup needs to go into the battery replacement market for specific popular models of 8+ year old EVs.
  - micromacrofoot 1y ago
    Average lifespan of a car in the US is 16 years, warranty covers half of that. Given the lowest acceptable threshold for capacity under some warranties (70%) and assuming linear degradation, a 16 year old EV would have 40% capacity (worst case). Given a typical range of 250 for EVs today, that would put you at ~110 miles on a charge. Seems like it would be a fine car to me given the age. I'd also expect battery swaps to become more common as the industry ages, which will drive prices down.
HPsquared 1y ago
That perception means you can get a good deal on a used EV.
j1elo 1y ago
A very rough estimate for phone batteries is that they last 1000 recharge cycles. If on average you recharge every day, that's 300+ charges a year, and there you go, an expected life of 3 years. That phone is up for a battery replacement. Just like oil or wheels need to be replaced in a car. Now, how many charges does a car battery do, and how frequently it tends to need one? The same calculation from phones can indeed be translated to cars, the only mistake is translating the end results of the calculation. Maybe that helps with your father?

potatolicious 1y ago

> and get something way better. The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product. Think back to the early smartphone days - every year phones multiplied in performance, in screen resolution, etc. In that environment a used item is less attractive because you feel like you're missing out on features/capability. This keeps used prices down. Nowadays used smartphones are more competitive because the rate of advancement (that buyers care about at least) has slowed. For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices.

PunchyHamster 1y ago
> The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product. And 2 years old EV is not twice as bad as current one > For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices. The previous gen is 8 years old. It took 8 years to "double" the quality, not 2
- potatolicious 1y ago
  Listen, I'm literally just describing basic market dynamics here - my post is not intended as an endorsement of plainly observable phenomena. The depreciation/utility curve has always been aggressive no matter what product you're buying. Is a 2 year-old ICE car twice as bad as a new one? Is a 2 year-old TV? Clearly not, yet they are all worth that in the open market. For EVs the depreciation curve is especially aggressive because of perceived advancements. Are the advancements worth buying new? I dunno! You tell me - but this is clearly being reflected in the market. From a strict utilitarian standpoint, optimizing your depreciation/utility function should mean you're buying almost every single thing used. But yet lots of people don't do that. Humans are empirically not very good utilitarians!

ceejayoz 1y ago

> new EVs are selling for about twice as much as a 2-year-old used vehicle of the same make and model There's a saying that a new car loses 50% when you leave the lot. It's presumably still true for EVs.

ianferrel 1y ago
That saying has always been a huge exaggeration, though. The price of a barely-used car is usually single-digit percentage points lower than an actually new one.
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bhelkey 1y ago
> There's a saying that a new car loses 50% when you leave the lot. New cars in no way lose half of their value when you drive them off the lot. The saying is that a new car loses ~10% of it's value when you drive it off the lot [1]. [1] https://www.carfax.com/buying/car-depreciation https://www.carfax.com/buying/car-depreciation
- dessimus 1y ago
  Right or wrong, the _saying_ is that "a new car loses half its value as soon as you drive off the lot." I've heard that repeated from many people across multiple regions in regards to buying a new vehicle. I've always heard half, never 10%, even if 10% is the more demonstrable amount.
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bombcar 1y ago
The 50% off the lot was always exaggerated, but it is nearly not true now at all - used prices for all cars have skyrocketed such that buying used is not nearly the deal it used to be. In fact, buying new is almost always the way to go now over lightly used (e.g., less than 5 or even 10 years old).

array_key_first 1y ago

Its a matter of perspective. EV are progressing fast so they lose value quick, like a laptop of the late 90s. Not quite as bad, but in those times, your computer was worth next to nothing in less than a year. ICE are stagnant. They retain their value because they're not improving at all.

znpy 1y ago
> ICE are stagnant. They retain their value because they're not improving at all. They aren't degrading either, though
- theothertimcook 1y ago
  They are definitely degrading. Complex driver aid/“safety” systems, outrageously complicated “infotainment” systems that are also used to interact with system functions, sealed/un-serviceable transmissions, exhaust gas filtration and recirculating systems, these are all additional points of failure that represent a degradation on modern ICE cars. These cars won’t be around 20 years after manufacture in the same way Toyota Camry and Corolla are.
  - Consultant32452 1y ago
    I recently bought a fancy muscle car with all that crap integrated into the infotainment system. I explained to the sales guy that I WANTED to keep this car for the rest of my life but was concerned that wouldn't be possible. In 10 years it may literally be impossible to find a phone that will connect via the USB/bluetooth to the infotainment system. We may all be using something completely different. Not to mention, no one will be manufacturing replacements for that infotainment system if it ever craps out. You can go buy a 50 year old muscle car and upgrade the radio to something kind of modern. But that won't be possible with my car 50 years from now. It's too integrated. The sales guy had clearly never considered this issue before.
    - jacobgkau 1y ago

szundi 1y ago

[dead]

nick49488171 1y ago

This has always been the case for Maseratis.