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Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still see

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, which played directly into the dynamics of guerrilla warfare where a strong state's extreme actions against a weak opponent undermine its legitimacy. Walking into such a trap tends to be a real world-historical blunder for any nation. Yet, rather than adapting, Israel's network doubled down with censorship campaigns, crackdowns on protests, and weaponizing "anti-semitism" accusations to silence critics -- actions that have all backfired. Now international support is collapsing, the EU is pushing sanctions, and the US is slowly distancing itself. Israel's best option right now is to end the war as quickly as possible, and devote all of its efforts to repairing damaged relationships and mitigating the war's effects, before isolation accelerates to the level of sanctions similar to those imposed on South Africa. I'll also note that it's interesting how all sides seem to have lost. Hamas lost the shooting war, the people of Gaza have lost lives and livelihoods which may take more than a decade to rebuild, and Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this.

flyinglizard 1y ago
We can talk endlessly about strategy and long term implications (for example, the destruction of the Iranian "ring of fire" network of proxies, the permanent changes in Syria and Lebanon, etc), but consider something much more basic: Israelis around Gaza can finally live securely. There are no rockets coming from Gaza, no mortars, no chance of another October 7th or smaller incursions as long as the Israeli military is there. Israelis have peace. No Gazan rocket can disturb the life in Tel Aviv or Ashdod. This couldn't and shouldn't have been a re-run of the countless previous clashes with Hamas. Israel needed to go all out to change the security situation, permanently.
- jayveeone 1y ago
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  - flyinglizard 1y ago
    It’s a very high hill to die on, expecting Israeli civilians to prioritize the lives of enemies over their own. Any historical precedent, or are we entering into the fuzzy realm of uncharted morality?
    - jayveeone 1y ago
      It's a neat little trick to just say any child you shoot in the head is Hamas. Or any women a children you starve was actually Hamas. Or every hospital you blow up was because Hamas was hiding in there. Or just pretend that October 2023 was the start of the conflict ignoring the decades of death, apartheid, and brutality preceding it. I'm just glad people like you are willing to publish stuff like this to the internet so we can look back and understand why genocides are allowed to happen.
      - flyinglizard 1y ago
        >> It's a neat little trick to just say any child you shoot in the head is Hamas. Or any women a children you starve was actually Hamas. Your words; not mine. I am supporting the military campaign against Gaza, and I also reject the separation between "Gaza" and "Hamas" as entirely artificial and serving an agenda. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza, they administrate Gaza, they pay salaries and they're the ones you negotiate with regarding Gaza. When your hear casualties numbers coming from the "Gaza Health Ministry", they're provided by Hamas. In October 7th 2023 it's Gaza, not Hamas, who started a war with Israel (not with the Israeli Defense Forces). It's a war between populations that for various reasons will not coexist on the same piece of land. Back in WWII, USA fought Japan, not the "Imperial Japanese Armed Forces". This is a war between nations.
        jayveeone 1y ago
softwaredoug 1y ago
> the US is slowly distancing itself. Public opinion in the US has turned against Israel, yes. Trump doesn't care about public opinion. He'll be buddy-buddy to Netanyahu other than symbolic acts of distancing / reprimanding.
- monocasa 1y ago
  Trump turns on his friends the moment it's convenient to do so.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Trump doesn't care about public opinion Of course he does. But he's currently most sensitive to Republican voters' opinions, and they're still at 64% net sympathy for Israel and 9% for Palestine. (55% of Trump voters say "Israel should continue its military campaign until Hamas is fully eliminated, even if it means the civilian casualties in Gaza might continue," while only 29% say "Israel should stop its military campaign in order to protect against civilian casualties, even if Hamas has not been fully eliminated" [1].) As the midterms come closer, that 26% independent net support for Israel becomes more pertinent, as do the 67% of independents who want Israel to stop its campaign. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/10/02/polls/times-siena-poll-registered-voter-crosstabs.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/10/02/polls/times-s...
- freedomben 1y ago
  I think that's mostly accurate, but to be fair he did recently sign an executive order guaranteeing military defense of Qatar, which was clearly a message to Israel that they better not mess with them. It's far from a backpedal on his support for Israel, but it does show he won't let them do anything they want (at least if he is speaking honestly)
- nix-zarathustra 1y ago
  Trump is also "buddy-buddy" with a lot of the Gulf States, in fact, he probably likes them more because they have more money to give him. If Israel does something they don't like, such as bomb Qatar, Trump can swing against Israel.
jayveeone 1y ago
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- ziobot 1y ago
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- jameshilliard 1y ago
  > Their strategy is and has been for decades to kill as many Palestinians as possible. This is just obviously false, Israel obviously has the military capability to kill effectively every Palestinian in Gaza, and yet they make significant efforts to prevent civilian casualties there.
  - ardit33 1y ago
    lol... bots are up in arm. No one with two brain cells believes this, anymore. The only reason they are not just straight nuking the places (both gaza and west bank), because of external pressures. They would if they could.
    - jameshilliard 1y ago
      > The only reason they are not just straight nuking the places (both gaza and west bank), because of external pressures. They would if they could. They clearly would not, there are significant domestic political pressures to minimize civilian casualties regardless of external pressures.
  - superb_dev 1y ago
    > …and yet they make significant efforts to prevent civilian casualties there. This is just obviously false. All you have to do is look at how many children they’ve killed. Those aren’t the number of someone going out of their way to prevent civilian casualties. It’s 50,000 children by the way. https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-50000-children-killed-or-injured-gaza https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-50000-children-killed...
  - tdeck 1y ago
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this Israel probably came out ahead if all they lost is prestige. They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power. Their weapons and military have been validated, which makes than a desirable trading partner in an increasingly-militarising world. And they're turning into a gas exporter. Worst case, a generational shift occurs and Israel loses its military support from America. (I don't see us sanctioning Israel any time soon, so its economic primacy will remain intact. And we only pay for like 15% of their military budget, so not a disaster.) Do you really think China and India would even hesitate to partner with Tel Aviv on defense?
- churchill 1y ago
  You may not realize it but Israel is slowly becoming Rhodesia/Apartheid South Africa. And i don't mean the word 'apartheid' as a cudgel. During the Rhodesian Bush War, their forces ran circles around the ZIPRA and ZANLA with multiple battles and encounters where they'd routinely record 500:1 KD ratios like Operation Dingo, etc. They had complete freedom of action to bomb any infrastructure obstructing them, reach deep into neighboring countries and slaughter guerillas copiously. Hell, South Africa had a dozen nukes. Once the sanctions came on, it unraveled everything they had. Israel is in such a precarious situation right now. Their economy depends on technology exports to an extreme degree. Cutting off that source of FX would literally half the economy overnight because cash would stop sloshing around internally from its main sources. If that happens, all the smart kids propping up the economy will move out while you're left with extremists who want war but won't fight in the army. In fact, it's ongoing right now with people leaving the country in the midst of a war they're 'winning.' You might think sanctions are a far-off notion, but key Western powers are breaking with America on recognizing Palestine. That's a red line designed to signal to Israel that it's losing ground. People across the world are calling for sanctions and it won't be long before they materialize. And America? Israel's main power base are American boomer evangelicals who're going the way of the dinosaur. Like I said in another comment, their kids are either not religious, don't like bombing kids, have been radicalized by the atrocities they've witnessed, or are aligned with people like Fuentes. I hope they can smell the coffee; if anyone had told South Africa that a nuclear power could be disarmed without a gunshot, they'd never have believed it. But, look what eventually happened. Thanks to the ongoing genocide, America's voting demographic for the next 40 years has begun to see Israel as a genocidal terrorist state. They will be voting for the next 50 years, while the boomer evangelicals die off.
_DeadFred_ 1y ago
The article says on a low period they found people were eating 1400 calories a day at one point. If there was more than that they would have listed it. Israel targets a higher number but that is what it got to in the worst situation the article could find to list. The United States Red Cross sets as a floor 1500 calories a day for people in distress. Is the Red Cross trying to starve Americans in distress? https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/2022-09/Mass%20Care%20Feeding%20Appendix%20%282020%29.pdf https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/202... The UN just cut food aid in Kenya for 800,000 refugees from the war in Sudan in half to 588 calories per day, yet the UN says it is willing and able to provide significantly higher amounts of food (and to not do so would be criminal) to the 2 million people of Gaza. Is the UN criminal/genocidal against Kenyan/Sudanese for offering starvation level assistance to one group but significantly more to another? The UN says they are ready and able to provide assistance to one group at the very same time the cut in half/say they can't provide aid that meets the level they say Gaza must receive when it is people in Kenya that need aid. Kenyan war refugees are receiving significantly less per person than that 1400 calorie at 588. https://allafrica.com/stories/202505230270.html https://allafrica.com/stories/202505230270.html
Glyptodon 1y ago
A big question for me continues to be how much of Israel's behavior isn't really about best options for Israel as a state, but power politics for particular political factions internally.
- fsckboy 1y ago
  but that's how every polity operates, you can't influence it more than people already try to influence it. you can ask the same of Hamas, is theirs the policy the populace wants? Israel does have a robust free speech democracy and you can easily learn what many of the different factions think, and like elections anywhere, you don't know till afterward how it plays out, and voters are always disappointed by the way power is exercised.
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    > Israel does have a robust free speech democracy That is debated. The IDF censors thousands of articles, both domestic and abroad, every year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Censor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Censor
  - Glyptodon 1y ago
    Yes and no - arguably most would define "pursuing negative outcomes to reinforce a fraction's power" as misoperation within governance and even 200+ years ago understanding this lead to things like Washington's warnings about factions and political parties.
FridayoLeary 1y ago
Look at the situation on October 7. 6000 armed terrorists swarmed across the border of gaza, commiting atrocities the like of which were not even thought to be possible in todays day and age among civilised people. I was never under any illusion of what hamas was and i was still shocked. The political climate in Israel up until that day was trying to help gazas economy and assuming hamas were pragmatic enough not to seek a war. But it became clear that not only did they spend their main efforts in the previous few years planning this massacre, but they had embedded themselves as deeply as possible in every single part of gaza as possible. Their tunnel network is more extensive then the London underground. Their bases are in hospitals and schools. Undeniable facts except to the most cynical and dishonest people out there. But what dismayed me the most was the response of the average palestinian on the street. Ecstatic celebration, i saw videos of crowds literally shrieking and crying for joy, at the single most shameful crime against humanity that was ever committed in their name. No other country in the world would do anything different in Israels place. Most would go much further. You can express disgust at their actions from your place where you would never have to confront such barbarity. Hamas planned and created the entire situation you just described and left no other course of action for Israel to take. What else should they have done? Don't tell me some stupid idea like make peace with them and stop the settlements etc. Those are grievences entirely made up of anti israel people and does not address the reality of who hamas and far too many palestinians are. War is horrible. I don't want it. No one wants it. This one is just and necessary. The world can sit and wait or they can help meaningfully. If you want to argue explain to me how Israelis and any human being should view and respond to the scenes of joy and celebration they saw on and after Oct 7. Even today there is very little remorse or even regret.
- bglazer 1y ago
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- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
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  - FridayoLeary 1y ago
YZF 1y ago
So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agree Israel is taking a hit on the world stage. This is part of the war and Israel has a hard time defending itself against enemies with vast resources. Those enemies are also more than happy to distract and splinter the western nations with this topic. Russia has a better standing in the world with its war of aggression on Ukraine amongst many other problems. Most western countries who were/are happy to abandon Israel would (and have) respond with significantly more force to a similar attack on themselves. It remains to be seen what are the longer term consequences here. Not just on Israel. What we have seen throughout this is not criticism. It is hate. It is often directed at Jews, not just at the Israeli government. Not 100% but a large percentage. It's not that Israel's response has no problems - it has many problems. But the discourse on this is not rational and not fact based. The media and the various actors are pushing agenda and ideology. This isn't unique to Israel here, we see this on political issues, a discourse that is tribal, not rational but rather emotional, manipulated by the media (social and otherwise). CNN here is treating Israel basically as it treats Trump and the republicans. CNN is not in the news business, it is in the shaping political opinion business. Would you say the west's response to ISIL/ISIS chopping the heads off a few westerners, a couple of random terrorist attacks in the west, and burning a Jordanian pilot alive would also be characterized as "extreme actions against a weak opponent"? How did CNN cover that conflict? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State - >83k militants killed. - 10's of thousands civilians killed. (IMO vastly underestimated, one source claims 40k killed just in the battle for Mosul: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%932017) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%93... ) - millions displaced.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > what would you do if you're Israel? Let in the food. Flood Gaza with food, actually, so it stops being a recruitment tool for militants.
jameshilliard 1y ago
> Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. After the October 7 attacks it was critical that Israel re-establish deterrence, not doing so would be inviting more attacks. > Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, which played directly into the dynamics of guerrilla warfare where a strong state's extreme actions against a weak opponent undermine its legitimacy. It turns out a disproportionate response is a rather effective strategy at deterring ones enemies from attacking, it worked quite well with Hezbollah which was considered by Israel to be a much more serious threat to Israel than Hamas was. > Walking into such a trap tends to be a real world-historical blunder for any nation. What other option did they have realistically? The middle east isn't a region where pacifism tends to work out well. > Yet, rather than adapting, Israel's network doubled down with censorship campaigns, crackdowns on protests, and weaponizing "anti-semitism" accusations to silence critics -- actions that have all backfired. Now international support is collapsing, the EU is pushing sanctions, and the US is slowly distancing itself. Israel's best option right now is to end the war as quickly as possible, and devote all of its efforts to repairing damaged relationships and mitigating the war's effects, before isolation accelerates to the level of sanctions similar to those imposed on South Africa. Keep in mind that statements politicians make publicly about Israel are often rather different from what they really think, politicians placating various activist groups for domestic political reasons doesn't often translate into meaningful adverse actions against Israel. The Israeli stock market is at all time highs right now despite everything that has happened. I agree Israel has been way too slow at ending the war, their reluctance to take actions to finish off Hamas(or force their capitulation/surrender) and end the war is not helping either the Palestinian people or Israelis. > I'll also note that it's interesting how all sides seem to have lost. Hamas lost the shooting war, the people of Gaza have lost lives and livelihoods which may take more than a decade to rebuild, and Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this. Israel losing the media war was probably somewhat inevitable, the extreme disparity between worldwide Muslim population sizes and Jewish population sizes being a big factor, but that isn't really an entirely new issue either. Despite all this Israel has largely re-established military deterrence in the Middle East and is on a path to normalize relations with countries like Saudi Arabia once Hamas is either forced to surrender or degraded enough that they lose their ability to govern Gaza.
holmesworcester 1y ago
Israel's main best option is to give Palestinians, at least those unambiguously born under Israel's control, the right to vote in Israeli federal elections. A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights. (And if your ethnic group is denied voting rights, you have a basic duty to your fellow man to raise hell until you get those rights, because arbitrary starvation is always on the table for your children until you get them.)
- bawolff 1y ago
  International law forbids the occupying power to give voting rights to occupied regions. Its also a bit unclear what you mean by "unambiguously under Israeli control" since Palestinians in occupied palestinian territories aren't unambigiously under Israeli control, they had little control over the inside of Gaza until recently, and have some power in the west bank that is shared with the PA. Neither is "unambiguous control". The only group unambigiously under their control are the Palestinians inside Israel proper who as far as i understand do have full voting rights. If you think military presence should equal voting rights, than i think that would imply that Iraq should be able to vote in US presedential elections.
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 1y ago
    Well the word "occupying" is doing the heavy lifting here.
    - bawolff 1y ago
      How so? There are troops there, The troops are not present with the consent of the local governing powers, the area has not been annexed (has not been integrated into normal civil law of the country with the troops)*. That is a textbook definition of what an occupation is. * except for East Jerusalem, which would normally be considered annexed, but the UNSC has decided (with the binding force of international law) that it is de jure occupied. However Palestinians in east Juruselum can apply for citizenship and get voting rights.
deepsun 1y ago
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- bigyabai 1y ago
  - De-escalate. Disproportionate violence legitimizes Gaza's resistance, reinforces domestic support for retaliation and signals to third-parties like China and Russia that they need to have a stakeholder in this fight. It also weakens American support for Israeli right-to-defense. - Negotiate a release of all illegally held hostages and fair international trial for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli detainment. Hamas should have no illegal captives, but neither should Israel. Without a solid and agreeable plan towards releasing these captives in a timely matter, neither side has an incentive to stop fighting. - Establish a good-faith interrim government to rebuild trust with the international community. Defer some power back to the UN as a gesture of goodwill, draw-back from annexed Gaza but draw the line firmly on pre-October 7th borders. Give up on the idea of annexing anything else. In a perfect world they also give Mount Hebron back to Syria, they'll be asking for it soon.
  - deepsun 1y ago
    > De-escalate. That's easy -- releasing all hostages would de-escalate immediately. Imagine a situation when there was no Oct 7, so Israel would have no reason to de-escalate. > Negotiate How to negotiate with one side pre-condition that the other side is all dead and their country does not exist. Now it starts to change, but not because of negotiations, sadly. > Establish a good-faith interrim government Sorry don't understand -- Gaza already has the official government -- HAMAS. Since 2007 there was no Israeli forces on Gaza territory (until Oct 7). Or you mean Israel should've established a different goverment in Gaza? Well taking down governments is already a military objective.
mikeen 1y ago
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- estearum 1y ago
  No, what's happening is that you are describing pro-Palestinian protests as pro-Hamas and then acting confused. You only confused yourself! Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization but Israel has revealed itself as a terrorist state. I hold one to a higher bar because I pay for the bombs that one side drops.
  - mikeen 1y ago
    A terrorist state does not need to be "baited" to attack. It is absolutely correct to hold the state to higher standards, regardless of what you pay for. But it is not correct to refuse state's right to defend itself, when it is attacked by a terrorist semi-state that not only does not care about its people, but actively using them as bait. This only incentivizing Hamas to keep using Palestinians as bait, and to turn more of them into "martyrs".
    - estearum 1y ago
      Actually it's quite possible that a state exists with Dominant Political Regime A at one point in time, then after an event, they transition to Dominant Political Regime B. In fact this is what did happen, as is plainly obvious. October 7th effectively stripped the moderating forces in Israeli politics of their power. Agreed the incentives are fucked up in every direction. For example, giving Israel impunity to respond to such attacks with extremely aggressive pursuit of related and unrelated geopolitical objectives actually creates an incentive for Israel to sustain such attacks from time to time. This was actually Netanyahu's explicit strategy: allow Hamas to take power in Gaza so no credible government could achieve a second state in the region. > “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy" Creating such perverse incentives is sort of the entire point of terrorism. https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visit... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas... https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.p...
zzzeek 1y ago
Netanyahu's goal is endless war and conflict so that he'll never have to leave office and finally face criminal charges. I think Oct 7 is exactly what he wanted also.
- tguvot 1y ago
  netanyahu trial is ongoing and actually been picking up pace in past month
SilverElfin 1y ago
> Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response Is it disproportionate? Why do we talk about proportions when it comes to Jewish people defending their security but don’t bring it up in other conflicts? There was no talk of proportionate response after 9/11, for example. Virtually all nations who participated in the global war on terror didn’t care. Proportionality is also not relevant when you’re talking about terrorists who are hiding among civilians on purpose. Why should Israel have to sacrifice the security of its residents to limit collateral damage among the very people who voted for Hamas and still support Hamas, as polls show.
- istajeer242 1y ago
  I've lived in the US since around 9/11; there was lots of discussion around the responses to Iraq, and Afghanistan. It went on to Yemen, and Libya. There was always criticism and utter disappointment with Obama in many circles over this. Many US soldiers came forward and condemned the Iraq war. Also, the people who voted for Hamas over 20 years ago? Considering how young the population is, I doubt many were alive then. Hamas won 74 of the 132 seats back then. It's very dangerous rhetoric to say collateral damage should not be limited. Did the babies and the many women who were slaughtered in endless bombing campaigns vote for Hamas to deserve their very end? This rhetoric is exactly why the world has turned their back on Israel. In the US, huge majority of under 35s do not support the state, for example.
- tmnvix 1y ago
  > There was no talk of proportionate response after 9/11 I guess it depends on where you were, but for me in Australia at the time, yes - there was plenty.
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    Some of America's most famous writers weighed in at the time. Here's Hunter S. Thompson warning about how 9/11's narrative will be used to warp the perception of empire: https://www.espn.com/page2/s/thompson/010918.html https://www.espn.com/page2/s/thompson/010918.html
- 1y ago
culi 1y ago
> In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all Since 2005, Israel has maintained a strategy for managing Gaza called "mowing the grass"[0][1] in which every few years they attack and conduct short, sharp military operations. This is in contrast to their strategy of (illegal) settlements in the West Bank. In fact, they removed 8,000 settlers in 2005 when they began this strategy. Besides the major hostilities of 2008/9,[2] 2012,[3] 2014,[4] and 2021[5], Israel infamously tests new weapons and technology on Gaza, allowing their weapons to be labelled "battlefield tested". One of their largest export is surveillance technology (guess who's the largest customer of that), but they also test drones, air force tech, and even guns. In October 2020 an IDF sniper boasted to Israeli newspaper Haaretz about breaking the "kneecap record" after shooting 42 Palestinian kneecaps in a single day. The snipers purposefully target kneecaps to permanently disable protestors, especially younger ones and increase the burden of care for Gazan society. This is "peacetime" between Gaza and Israel. Gaza has been called an "open air prison" and "laboratory"[6] for Israel's military industry. The point I'm making is that Israel has never stopped keeping its eye on Gaza. I find it extremely hard to believe Israel didn't know, with extreme detail, what they were getting themselves into [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/14/israel-gaza-history/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/14/israel-gaza-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Gaza_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Gaza_War [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_... [6] https://www.versobooks.com/products/2684-the-palestine-laboratory https://www.versobooks.com/products/2684-the-palestine-labor...
- xenocratus 1y ago
  > I find it extremely hard to believe Israel didn't know, with extreme detail, what they were getting themselves into I find it extremely hard to believe Israel didn't know about the Oct 7 attack in the first place, and chose to use it as a reason.
  - 1y ago
beloch 1y ago
Some have described what we're seeing as an impassioned overreaction to Hamas' initial strike and kidnappings. However, Netanyahu's actions appear far more deliberate. Rhetoric from his own cabinet ministers is now impossible to ignore. The IDF has taken a very slow and careful approach. There are typically under a hundred Palestinians killed at a time, but they are killed most days with a high degree of consistency. Headlines like "50 civilians killed in Gaza overnight" no longer make it to the front page. There has clearly been careful management to ensure that the numbers don't climb high enough in a single day to upset the new "normal". Israel has banned foreign journalists and the IDF has deliberately targeted those inside of Gaza to further minimize coverage. On top of that, the IDF has targeted healthcare infrastructure and workers while carefully controlling aid to bring about famine without provoking any significant foreign response. The big concerns now should be how quickly an incipient famine in a region whose healthcare system has been largely eliminated could cause mass deaths, and how long the fog of war Netanyahu has carefully crafted over Gaza might hide it. The remaining window of time in which intervention might prevent tragedy is rapidly closing.
- immibis 1y ago
  Also the fact they were doing it long before Oct 7 2023 proves it wasn't caused by anything that happened on Oct 7 2023.
GolfPopper 1y ago
>it's interesting how all sides seem to have lost Benjamin Netanyahu is still in power, his trial for corruption continually delayed as a direct consequence of the war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu
- cutemonster 1y ago
  Yes, things look pretty bright for Netanyahu, and the others in the Israeli state who want to do ethnic cleansing or worse. And settlers who want to do ethnic cleansing (not everyone! a minority I presume), are happy too. Not many mistakes made here, just others who are mistaken about the goals
andrewcamel 1y ago
What response would you suggest for Israel? My understanding is their civilian vs combatant ratio is lower than comparable urban conflicts. So it’s hard to respond “softer”. Population adjusted, 10/7 was 10x+ worse than 9/11. Challenging to expect zero response. So what else is there?
- klipt 1y ago
  The layman's understanding of war is less guided by international law and more around ideas like "tit for tat". Eg if Hamas kills 1000 Israeli civilians, Israel is entitled to kill 1000 Palestinian civilians, but should stop after that. Is it the better response under international law? Not necessarily, but it would be better PR.
- interstice 1y ago
  Would you happen to have sources for this?
  - klipt 1y ago
    One interesting comparison I saw is the Siege of Mariupol. The fighting there had very high rates of civilian deaths (per day, and also vs combatant deaths), but: * a large portion of civilians (and thus civilian casualties) in Mariupol actually identify as ethnic Russians, so it seems unlikely Russia targeted them intentionally * nobody has filed a genocide case against Russia on the basis of the large number of civilian deaths in Mariupol
- deleted 1y ago
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- immibis 1y ago
  How come Israel is supposed to respond to Palestinian actions but Palestine isn't supposed to respond to Israeli actions?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
dzhiurgis 1y ago
> killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands Article says 400 people died.
- slimebot80 1y ago
  That's from starvation.
dotancohen 1y ago
> Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response Was Hamas' response proportionate to Israeli actions? What actions specifically. Before you answer wildly, note that you're talking to someone who knows a dozen hostages and ex-hostages personally. Someone who knows two women whose babies were burned to death. Some whose daughter lost a close friend (that friend was slaughtered in his home along with both siblings and both parents, in their pajamas). Someone whose son's camp counselor was dragged to Gaza and murdered. I could go on. What was Hamas' actions a proportionate respond to?
ukblewis 1y ago
Your metrics are yours alone. Ask Hamas if they won? If they stay in power in Gaza, trust me, they won. Same as if the Nazis were still in control of Germany, Stalin in charge of Russia, ISIS in charge of Iraq and Syria and the Khmer Rouge in charge of Cambodia… Your suggestion that Israel stop fighting in contrast to Trump’s direct words stating that he will back Israel fully in defeating Hamas if Hamas does not accept his deal which involves them fully disarming, is essentially suggesting that Israel should accept defeat even when it has the backing of the leader of the most powerful nation on earth. Now either you are ignorant or you are intentionally malevolent in your suggestion… take your pick
DrScientist 1y ago
Sadly I think you are mistaken to paint it as an irrational Israel lashing out - that's too generous. I think it's quite the opposite - there has been a very clear, cold, calculated strategy - which is to use the conflict as an cover for doing what some in the government have always wanted to do ( and been quite open about it ) - which is to create a greater Israel - drive out all Palestinians from the river to the sea ( Gaza and West Bank ), as well as push to the river in the north into Lebanon and take more of Syria. Those in government understand the potential reputation loss - but see that as temporary and something that can be managed under the protection of the US, while viewing the gain of territory as permanent.
- lossolo 1y ago
  This, for Israel it was a perfect pretext. Netanyahu financed Hamas through Qatar for years because he knew that Hamas is a destructive force for Palestinians and their struggle for nationhood. It was a cold, cynical decision. He exploited the anger and emotions of the people after October 7th to justify what he is doing now.
  - dlahoda 1y ago
    any links for research proving you state?
    - frm88 1y ago
      John Oliver did an In-depth analysis complete with sources in his latest Last Week Tonight. It's titled Netanyahu. Go, watch it, it is illuminating.
      - VonTum 1y ago
        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Bwix9IjOE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Bwix9IjOE
      - names_are_hard 1y ago
        Unfortunately it's not available to me on YouTube: Video unavailable The uploader has not made this video available in your country :-(
austhrow743 1y ago
Israel has tried responding to attacks by not killing hundreds of thousands of people, and that approach led to October 7th. It’s been way too short a time to tell if this will work, but responding in a softer manner has proven to not. Might work is better than won’t work.
- ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
  >It’s been way too short a time to tell if this will work, but responding in a softer manner has proven to not. Might work is better than won’t work. Absolutely! As R.A. Lafferty correctly posited[0]: “When you have shot and killed a man you have in some measure clarified your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or worse you have acted decisively. In a way, the next move is up to him.” ― R.A. Lafferty Yes. It's up to those dead Palestinians to now make peace. And the more dead Palestinians there are, there are more who are on the hook to do so. In fact, if we kill them all, they'll be in the perfect spot to make peace, amirite? [0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11072354-when-you-have-shot-and-killed-a-man-you-have https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11072354-when-you-have-shot...
whatshisface 1y ago
They're not losing the information war against Hamas, who they can easily kill if they can identify, they're losing it against those concerned with human rights in the free world. International law (in the absence of diplomatic enforcement) has nothing to do with it, and neither does the complex and detailed history that only serves as a way for people to avoid talking about the present...
jncfhnb 1y ago
I think that’s extremely incorrect tbh. Israel saw an opportunity and they took every inch of it. They have neutered Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, and effected the fall of the Assad regime in Syria. I don’t think Israel cares about foreign civilian opinions. Western states are largely still aligned and dependent on Israeli geopolitical presence. Palestine is not and never was the focal point of this conflict. It was always Iran.
davidguetta 1y ago
"Walking into such a trap tends to be a real world-historical blunder for any nation." Such as ?
southernplaces7 1y ago
In all this description, with which I agree to a large extent except in believing the "lashing out" to have been very much deliberate, except simply murderous and grossly inept, it's worth mentioning the specific name of that murderous war criminal Netanyahu who is responsible for the majority of the decision making and impetus.
xg15 1y ago
Agreeing with the other sibling comments. I think in part it was following the same vision that the current Israeli government had been following already before Oct. 7 - they had annexation of the West Bank listed as one of the official goals of their coalition since they were elected. Another part stemmed from the extreme dehumanization of Palestinians that was already established in Israeli society long before (and to a lesser extent also in other western countries). The overton window had already been shifted so far that this kind of response was seen as mostly normal. I found the standard justifications of "eh, war is always cruel" and "when their kids grow up, they will just become the next generation of terrorists" pretty telling.
asdefghyk 1y ago
Well Hamas did write they want to kill all Israel. Hamas did slaughter , rape and torture 1200 civilians , children and babies. and take at least another 200? hostage Then paraded some of them thru Gaza. Exactly what response did Hamas expect. Also Trump has said 30,000 of the cira 60000 dead are Hamas fighters.
asdefghyk 1y ago
I thought Israel said its (strategy?) aim was to remove? Hamas so it could no longer be a threat.

flyinglizard 1y ago

We can talk endlessly about strategy and long term implications (for example, the destruction of the Iranian "ring of fire" network of proxies, the permanent changes in Syria and Lebanon, etc), but consider something much more basic: Israelis around Gaza can finally live securely. There are no rockets coming from Gaza, no mortars, no chance of another October 7th or smaller incursions as long as the Israeli military is there. Israelis have peace. No Gazan rocket can disturb the life in Tel Aviv or Ashdod. This couldn't and shouldn't have been a re-run of the countless previous clashes with Hamas. Israel needed to go all out to change the security situation, permanently.

jayveeone 1y ago
[flagged]
- flyinglizard 1y ago
  It’s a very high hill to die on, expecting Israeli civilians to prioritize the lives of enemies over their own. Any historical precedent, or are we entering into the fuzzy realm of uncharted morality?
  - jayveeone 1y ago
    It's a neat little trick to just say any child you shoot in the head is Hamas. Or any women a children you starve was actually Hamas. Or every hospital you blow up was because Hamas was hiding in there. Or just pretend that October 2023 was the start of the conflict ignoring the decades of death, apartheid, and brutality preceding it. I'm just glad people like you are willing to publish stuff like this to the internet so we can look back and understand why genocides are allowed to happen.
    - flyinglizard 1y ago
      >> It's a neat little trick to just say any child you shoot in the head is Hamas. Or any women a children you starve was actually Hamas. Your words; not mine. I am supporting the military campaign against Gaza, and I also reject the separation between "Gaza" and "Hamas" as entirely artificial and serving an agenda. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza, they administrate Gaza, they pay salaries and they're the ones you negotiate with regarding Gaza. When your hear casualties numbers coming from the "Gaza Health Ministry", they're provided by Hamas. In October 7th 2023 it's Gaza, not Hamas, who started a war with Israel (not with the Israeli Defense Forces). It's a war between populations that for various reasons will not coexist on the same piece of land. Back in WWII, USA fought Japan, not the "Imperial Japanese Armed Forces". This is a war between nations.
      - jayveeone 1y ago

softwaredoug 1y ago

> the US is slowly distancing itself. Public opinion in the US has turned against Israel, yes. Trump doesn't care about public opinion. He'll be buddy-buddy to Netanyahu other than symbolic acts of distancing / reprimanding.

monocasa 1y ago
Trump turns on his friends the moment it's convenient to do so.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Trump doesn't care about public opinion Of course he does. But he's currently most sensitive to Republican voters' opinions, and they're still at 64% net sympathy for Israel and 9% for Palestine. (55% of Trump voters say "Israel should continue its military campaign until Hamas is fully eliminated, even if it means the civilian casualties in Gaza might continue," while only 29% say "Israel should stop its military campaign in order to protect against civilian casualties, even if Hamas has not been fully eliminated" [1].) As the midterms come closer, that 26% independent net support for Israel becomes more pertinent, as do the 67% of independents who want Israel to stop its campaign. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/10/02/polls/times-siena-poll-registered-voter-crosstabs.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/10/02/polls/times-s...
freedomben 1y ago
I think that's mostly accurate, but to be fair he did recently sign an executive order guaranteeing military defense of Qatar, which was clearly a message to Israel that they better not mess with them. It's far from a backpedal on his support for Israel, but it does show he won't let them do anything they want (at least if he is speaking honestly)
nix-zarathustra 1y ago
Trump is also "buddy-buddy" with a lot of the Gulf States, in fact, he probably likes them more because they have more money to give him. If Israel does something they don't like, such as bomb Qatar, Trump can swing against Israel.

jayveeone 1y ago

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ziobot 1y ago
[dead]
jameshilliard 1y ago
> Their strategy is and has been for decades to kill as many Palestinians as possible. This is just obviously false, Israel obviously has the military capability to kill effectively every Palestinian in Gaza, and yet they make significant efforts to prevent civilian casualties there.
- ardit33 1y ago
  lol... bots are up in arm. No one with two brain cells believes this, anymore. The only reason they are not just straight nuking the places (both gaza and west bank), because of external pressures. They would if they could.
  - jameshilliard 1y ago
    > The only reason they are not just straight nuking the places (both gaza and west bank), because of external pressures. They would if they could. They clearly would not, there are significant domestic political pressures to minimize civilian casualties regardless of external pressures.
- superb_dev 1y ago
  > …and yet they make significant efforts to prevent civilian casualties there. This is just obviously false. All you have to do is look at how many children they’ve killed. Those aren’t the number of someone going out of their way to prevent civilian casualties. It’s 50,000 children by the way. https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-50000-children-killed-or-injured-gaza https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/more-50000-children-killed...
- tdeck 1y ago

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this Israel probably came out ahead if all they lost is prestige. They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power. Their weapons and military have been validated, which makes than a desirable trading partner in an increasingly-militarising world. And they're turning into a gas exporter. Worst case, a generational shift occurs and Israel loses its military support from America. (I don't see us sanctioning Israel any time soon, so its economic primacy will remain intact. And we only pay for like 15% of their military budget, so not a disaster.) Do you really think China and India would even hesitate to partner with Tel Aviv on defense?

churchill 1y ago
You may not realize it but Israel is slowly becoming Rhodesia/Apartheid South Africa. And i don't mean the word 'apartheid' as a cudgel. During the Rhodesian Bush War, their forces ran circles around the ZIPRA and ZANLA with multiple battles and encounters where they'd routinely record 500:1 KD ratios like Operation Dingo, etc. They had complete freedom of action to bomb any infrastructure obstructing them, reach deep into neighboring countries and slaughter guerillas copiously. Hell, South Africa had a dozen nukes. Once the sanctions came on, it unraveled everything they had. Israel is in such a precarious situation right now. Their economy depends on technology exports to an extreme degree. Cutting off that source of FX would literally half the economy overnight because cash would stop sloshing around internally from its main sources. If that happens, all the smart kids propping up the economy will move out while you're left with extremists who want war but won't fight in the army. In fact, it's ongoing right now with people leaving the country in the midst of a war they're 'winning.' You might think sanctions are a far-off notion, but key Western powers are breaking with America on recognizing Palestine. That's a red line designed to signal to Israel that it's losing ground. People across the world are calling for sanctions and it won't be long before they materialize. And America? Israel's main power base are American boomer evangelicals who're going the way of the dinosaur. Like I said in another comment, their kids are either not religious, don't like bombing kids, have been radicalized by the atrocities they've witnessed, or are aligned with people like Fuentes. I hope they can smell the coffee; if anyone had told South Africa that a nuclear power could be disarmed without a gunshot, they'd never have believed it. But, look what eventually happened. Thanks to the ongoing genocide, America's voting demographic for the next 40 years has begun to see Israel as a genocidal terrorist state. They will be voting for the next 50 years, while the boomer evangelicals die off.

_DeadFred_ 1y ago

The article says on a low period they found people were eating 1400 calories a day at one point. If there was more than that they would have listed it. Israel targets a higher number but that is what it got to in the worst situation the article could find to list. The United States Red Cross sets as a floor 1500 calories a day for people in distress. Is the Red Cross trying to starve Americans in distress? https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/2022-09/Mass%20Care%20Feeding%20Appendix%20%282020%29.pdf https://emergency.lacity.gov/sites/g/files/wph1791/files/202... The UN just cut food aid in Kenya for 800,000 refugees from the war in Sudan in half to 588 calories per day, yet the UN says it is willing and able to provide significantly higher amounts of food (and to not do so would be criminal) to the 2 million people of Gaza. Is the UN criminal/genocidal against Kenyan/Sudanese for offering starvation level assistance to one group but significantly more to another? The UN says they are ready and able to provide assistance to one group at the very same time the cut in half/say they can't provide aid that meets the level they say Gaza must receive when it is people in Kenya that need aid. Kenyan war refugees are receiving significantly less per person than that 1400 calorie at 588. https://allafrica.com/stories/202505230270.html https://allafrica.com/stories/202505230270.html

Glyptodon 1y ago

A big question for me continues to be how much of Israel's behavior isn't really about best options for Israel as a state, but power politics for particular political factions internally.

fsckboy 1y ago
but that's how every polity operates, you can't influence it more than people already try to influence it. you can ask the same of Hamas, is theirs the policy the populace wants? Israel does have a robust free speech democracy and you can easily learn what many of the different factions think, and like elections anywhere, you don't know till afterward how it plays out, and voters are always disappointed by the way power is exercised.
- bigyabai 1y ago
  > Israel does have a robust free speech democracy That is debated. The IDF censors thousands of articles, both domestic and abroad, every year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Censor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Censor
- Glyptodon 1y ago
  Yes and no - arguably most would define "pursuing negative outcomes to reinforce a fraction's power" as misoperation within governance and even 200+ years ago understanding this lead to things like Washington's warnings about factions and political parties.

FridayoLeary 1y ago

Look at the situation on October 7. 6000 armed terrorists swarmed across the border of gaza, commiting atrocities the like of which were not even thought to be possible in todays day and age among civilised people. I was never under any illusion of what hamas was and i was still shocked. The political climate in Israel up until that day was trying to help gazas economy and assuming hamas were pragmatic enough not to seek a war. But it became clear that not only did they spend their main efforts in the previous few years planning this massacre, but they had embedded themselves as deeply as possible in every single part of gaza as possible. Their tunnel network is more extensive then the London underground. Their bases are in hospitals and schools. Undeniable facts except to the most cynical and dishonest people out there. But what dismayed me the most was the response of the average palestinian on the street. Ecstatic celebration, i saw videos of crowds literally shrieking and crying for joy, at the single most shameful crime against humanity that was ever committed in their name. No other country in the world would do anything different in Israels place. Most would go much further. You can express disgust at their actions from your place where you would never have to confront such barbarity. Hamas planned and created the entire situation you just described and left no other course of action for Israel to take. What else should they have done? Don't tell me some stupid idea like make peace with them and stop the settlements etc. Those are grievences entirely made up of anti israel people and does not address the reality of who hamas and far too many palestinians are. War is horrible. I don't want it. No one wants it. This one is just and necessary. The world can sit and wait or they can help meaningfully. If you want to argue explain to me how Israelis and any human being should view and respond to the scenes of joy and celebration they saw on and after Oct 7. Even today there is very little remorse or even regret.

bglazer 1y ago
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JumpCrisscross 1y ago
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- FridayoLeary 1y ago

YZF 1y ago

So what would you do if you're Israel? Suck it up? Leave the hostages to rot in Gaza? Wait until the next coordinated attack from Iran, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza? Israel's enemies want it destroyed- that's what's at stake here. If Hamas had a chance it would keep going and murder all Israelis, not just the ones they managed to before they were repelled. What sort of adaptation are you proposing? I do agree Israel is taking a hit on the world stage. This is part of the war and Israel has a hard time defending itself against enemies with vast resources. Those enemies are also more than happy to distract and splinter the western nations with this topic. Russia has a better standing in the world with its war of aggression on Ukraine amongst many other problems. Most western countries who were/are happy to abandon Israel would (and have) respond with significantly more force to a similar attack on themselves. It remains to be seen what are the longer term consequences here. Not just on Israel. What we have seen throughout this is not criticism. It is hate. It is often directed at Jews, not just at the Israeli government. Not 100% but a large percentage. It's not that Israel's response has no problems - it has many problems. But the discourse on this is not rational and not fact based. The media and the various actors are pushing agenda and ideology. This isn't unique to Israel here, we see this on political issues, a discourse that is tribal, not rational but rather emotional, manipulated by the media (social and otherwise). CNN here is treating Israel basically as it treats Trump and the republicans. CNN is not in the news business, it is in the shaping political opinion business. Would you say the west's response to ISIL/ISIS chopping the heads off a few westerners, a couple of random terrorist attacks in the west, and burning a Jordanian pilot alive would also be characterized as "extreme actions against a weak opponent"? How did CNN cover that conflict? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State - >83k militants killed. - 10's of thousands civilians killed. (IMO vastly underestimated, one source claims 40k killed just in the battle for Mosul: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%932017) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%93... ) - millions displaced.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> what would you do if you're Israel? Let in the food. Flood Gaza with food, actually, so it stops being a recruitment tool for militants.

jameshilliard 1y ago

> Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. After the October 7 attacks it was critical that Israel re-establish deterrence, not doing so would be inviting more attacks. > Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, which played directly into the dynamics of guerrilla warfare where a strong state's extreme actions against a weak opponent undermine its legitimacy. It turns out a disproportionate response is a rather effective strategy at deterring ones enemies from attacking, it worked quite well with Hezbollah which was considered by Israel to be a much more serious threat to Israel than Hamas was. > Walking into such a trap tends to be a real world-historical blunder for any nation. What other option did they have realistically? The middle east isn't a region where pacifism tends to work out well. > Yet, rather than adapting, Israel's network doubled down with censorship campaigns, crackdowns on protests, and weaponizing "anti-semitism" accusations to silence critics -- actions that have all backfired. Now international support is collapsing, the EU is pushing sanctions, and the US is slowly distancing itself. Israel's best option right now is to end the war as quickly as possible, and devote all of its efforts to repairing damaged relationships and mitigating the war's effects, before isolation accelerates to the level of sanctions similar to those imposed on South Africa. Keep in mind that statements politicians make publicly about Israel are often rather different from what they really think, politicians placating various activist groups for domestic political reasons doesn't often translate into meaningful adverse actions against Israel. The Israeli stock market is at all time highs right now despite everything that has happened. I agree Israel has been way too slow at ending the war, their reluctance to take actions to finish off Hamas(or force their capitulation/surrender) and end the war is not helping either the Palestinian people or Israelis. > I'll also note that it's interesting how all sides seem to have lost. Hamas lost the shooting war, the people of Gaza have lost lives and livelihoods which may take more than a decade to rebuild, and Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this. Israel losing the media war was probably somewhat inevitable, the extreme disparity between worldwide Muslim population sizes and Jewish population sizes being a big factor, but that isn't really an entirely new issue either. Despite all this Israel has largely re-established military deterrence in the Middle East and is on a path to normalize relations with countries like Saudi Arabia once Hamas is either forced to surrender or degraded enough that they lose their ability to govern Gaza.

holmesworcester 1y ago

Israel's main best option is to give Palestinians, at least those unambiguously born under Israel's control, the right to vote in Israeli federal elections. A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights. (And if your ethnic group is denied voting rights, you have a basic duty to your fellow man to raise hell until you get those rights, because arbitrary starvation is always on the table for your children until you get them.)

bawolff 1y ago
International law forbids the occupying power to give voting rights to occupied regions. Its also a bit unclear what you mean by "unambiguously under Israeli control" since Palestinians in occupied palestinian territories aren't unambigiously under Israeli control, they had little control over the inside of Gaza until recently, and have some power in the west bank that is shared with the PA. Neither is "unambiguous control". The only group unambigiously under their control are the Palestinians inside Israel proper who as far as i understand do have full voting rights. If you think military presence should equal voting rights, than i think that would imply that Iraq should be able to vote in US presedential elections.
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 1y ago
  Well the word "occupying" is doing the heavy lifting here.
  - bawolff 1y ago
    How so? There are troops there, The troops are not present with the consent of the local governing powers, the area has not been annexed (has not been integrated into normal civil law of the country with the troops)*. That is a textbook definition of what an occupation is. * except for East Jerusalem, which would normally be considered annexed, but the UNSC has decided (with the binding force of international law) that it is de jure occupied. However Palestinians in east Juruselum can apply for citizenship and get voting rights.

deepsun 1y ago

[flagged]

bigyabai 1y ago
- De-escalate. Disproportionate violence legitimizes Gaza's resistance, reinforces domestic support for retaliation and signals to third-parties like China and Russia that they need to have a stakeholder in this fight. It also weakens American support for Israeli right-to-defense. - Negotiate a release of all illegally held hostages and fair international trial for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli detainment. Hamas should have no illegal captives, but neither should Israel. Without a solid and agreeable plan towards releasing these captives in a timely matter, neither side has an incentive to stop fighting. - Establish a good-faith interrim government to rebuild trust with the international community. Defer some power back to the UN as a gesture of goodwill, draw-back from annexed Gaza but draw the line firmly on pre-October 7th borders. Give up on the idea of annexing anything else. In a perfect world they also give Mount Hebron back to Syria, they'll be asking for it soon.
- deepsun 1y ago
  > De-escalate. That's easy -- releasing all hostages would de-escalate immediately. Imagine a situation when there was no Oct 7, so Israel would have no reason to de-escalate. > Negotiate How to negotiate with one side pre-condition that the other side is all dead and their country does not exist. Now it starts to change, but not because of negotiations, sadly. > Establish a good-faith interrim government Sorry don't understand -- Gaza already has the official government -- HAMAS. Since 2007 there was no Israeli forces on Gaza territory (until Oct 7). Or you mean Israel should've established a different goverment in Gaza? Well taking down governments is already a military objective.

mikeen 1y ago

[flagged]

estearum 1y ago
No, what's happening is that you are describing pro-Palestinian protests as pro-Hamas and then acting confused. You only confused yourself! Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization but Israel has revealed itself as a terrorist state. I hold one to a higher bar because I pay for the bombs that one side drops.
- mikeen 1y ago
  A terrorist state does not need to be "baited" to attack. It is absolutely correct to hold the state to higher standards, regardless of what you pay for. But it is not correct to refuse state's right to defend itself, when it is attacked by a terrorist semi-state that not only does not care about its people, but actively using them as bait. This only incentivizing Hamas to keep using Palestinians as bait, and to turn more of them into "martyrs".
  - estearum 1y ago
    Actually it's quite possible that a state exists with Dominant Political Regime A at one point in time, then after an event, they transition to Dominant Political Regime B. In fact this is what did happen, as is plainly obvious. October 7th effectively stripped the moderating forces in Israeli politics of their power. Agreed the incentives are fucked up in every direction. For example, giving Israel impunity to respond to such attacks with extremely aggressive pursuit of related and unrelated geopolitical objectives actually creates an incentive for Israel to sustain such attacks from time to time. This was actually Netanyahu's explicit strategy: allow Hamas to take power in Gaza so no credible government could achieve a second state in the region. > “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy" Creating such perverse incentives is sort of the entire point of terrorism. https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visit... https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas... https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.p...

zzzeek 1y ago

Netanyahu's goal is endless war and conflict so that he'll never have to leave office and finally face criminal charges. I think Oct 7 is exactly what he wanted also.

tguvot 1y ago
netanyahu trial is ongoing and actually been picking up pace in past month

SilverElfin 1y ago

> Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response Is it disproportionate? Why do we talk about proportions when it comes to Jewish people defending their security but don’t bring it up in other conflicts? There was no talk of proportionate response after 9/11, for example. Virtually all nations who participated in the global war on terror didn’t care. Proportionality is also not relevant when you’re talking about terrorists who are hiding among civilians on purpose. Why should Israel have to sacrifice the security of its residents to limit collateral damage among the very people who voted for Hamas and still support Hamas, as polls show.

istajeer242 1y ago
I've lived in the US since around 9/11; there was lots of discussion around the responses to Iraq, and Afghanistan. It went on to Yemen, and Libya. There was always criticism and utter disappointment with Obama in many circles over this. Many US soldiers came forward and condemned the Iraq war. Also, the people who voted for Hamas over 20 years ago? Considering how young the population is, I doubt many were alive then. Hamas won 74 of the 132 seats back then. It's very dangerous rhetoric to say collateral damage should not be limited. Did the babies and the many women who were slaughtered in endless bombing campaigns vote for Hamas to deserve their very end? This rhetoric is exactly why the world has turned their back on Israel. In the US, huge majority of under 35s do not support the state, for example.
tmnvix 1y ago
> There was no talk of proportionate response after 9/11 I guess it depends on where you were, but for me in Australia at the time, yes - there was plenty.
- bigyabai 1y ago
  Some of America's most famous writers weighed in at the time. Here's Hunter S. Thompson warning about how 9/11's narrative will be used to warp the perception of empire: https://www.espn.com/page2/s/thompson/010918.html https://www.espn.com/page2/s/thompson/010918.html
1y ago

culi 1y ago

> In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all Since 2005, Israel has maintained a strategy for managing Gaza called "mowing the grass"[0][1] in which every few years they attack and conduct short, sharp military operations. This is in contrast to their strategy of (illegal) settlements in the West Bank. In fact, they removed 8,000 settlers in 2005 when they began this strategy. Besides the major hostilities of 2008/9,[2] 2012,[3] 2014,[4] and 2021[5], Israel infamously tests new weapons and technology on Gaza, allowing their weapons to be labelled "battlefield tested". One of their largest export is surveillance technology (guess who's the largest customer of that), but they also test drones, air force tech, and even guns. In October 2020 an IDF sniper boasted to Israeli newspaper Haaretz about breaking the "kneecap record" after shooting 42 Palestinian kneecaps in a single day. The snipers purposefully target kneecaps to permanently disable protestors, especially younger ones and increase the burden of care for Gazan society. This is "peacetime" between Gaza and Israel. Gaza has been called an "open air prison" and "laboratory"[6] for Israel's military industry. The point I'm making is that Israel has never stopped keeping its eye on Gaza. I find it extremely hard to believe Israel didn't know, with extreme detail, what they were getting themselves into [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/14/israel-gaza-history/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/14/israel-gaza-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009) [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Gaza_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Gaza_War [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_... [6] https://www.versobooks.com/products/2684-the-palestine-laboratory https://www.versobooks.com/products/2684-the-palestine-labor...

xenocratus 1y ago
> I find it extremely hard to believe Israel didn't know, with extreme detail, what they were getting themselves into I find it extremely hard to believe Israel didn't know about the Oct 7 attack in the first place, and chose to use it as a reason.
- 1y ago

beloch 1y ago

Some have described what we're seeing as an impassioned overreaction to Hamas' initial strike and kidnappings. However, Netanyahu's actions appear far more deliberate. Rhetoric from his own cabinet ministers is now impossible to ignore. The IDF has taken a very slow and careful approach. There are typically under a hundred Palestinians killed at a time, but they are killed most days with a high degree of consistency. Headlines like "50 civilians killed in Gaza overnight" no longer make it to the front page. There has clearly been careful management to ensure that the numbers don't climb high enough in a single day to upset the new "normal". Israel has banned foreign journalists and the IDF has deliberately targeted those inside of Gaza to further minimize coverage. On top of that, the IDF has targeted healthcare infrastructure and workers while carefully controlling aid to bring about famine without provoking any significant foreign response. The big concerns now should be how quickly an incipient famine in a region whose healthcare system has been largely eliminated could cause mass deaths, and how long the fog of war Netanyahu has carefully crafted over Gaza might hide it. The remaining window of time in which intervention might prevent tragedy is rapidly closing.

immibis 1y ago
Also the fact they were doing it long before Oct 7 2023 proves it wasn't caused by anything that happened on Oct 7 2023.

GolfPopper 1y ago

>it's interesting how all sides seem to have lost Benjamin Netanyahu is still in power, his trial for corruption continually delayed as a direct consequence of the war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu

cutemonster 1y ago
Yes, things look pretty bright for Netanyahu, and the others in the Israeli state who want to do ethnic cleansing or worse. And settlers who want to do ethnic cleansing (not everyone! a minority I presume), are happy too. Not many mistakes made here, just others who are mistaken about the goals

andrewcamel 1y ago

What response would you suggest for Israel? My understanding is their civilian vs combatant ratio is lower than comparable urban conflicts. So it’s hard to respond “softer”. Population adjusted, 10/7 was 10x+ worse than 9/11. Challenging to expect zero response. So what else is there?

klipt 1y ago
The layman's understanding of war is less guided by international law and more around ideas like "tit for tat". Eg if Hamas kills 1000 Israeli civilians, Israel is entitled to kill 1000 Palestinian civilians, but should stop after that. Is it the better response under international law? Not necessarily, but it would be better PR.
interstice 1y ago
Would you happen to have sources for this?
- klipt 1y ago
  One interesting comparison I saw is the Siege of Mariupol. The fighting there had very high rates of civilian deaths (per day, and also vs combatant deaths), but: * a large portion of civilians (and thus civilian casualties) in Mariupol actually identify as ethnic Russians, so it seems unlikely Russia targeted them intentionally * nobody has filed a genocide case against Russia on the basis of the large number of civilian deaths in Mariupol
deleted 1y ago
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immibis 1y ago
How come Israel is supposed to respond to Palestinian actions but Palestine isn't supposed to respond to Israeli actions?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

dzhiurgis 1y ago

> killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands Article says 400 people died.

slimebot80 1y ago
That's from starvation.

dotancohen 1y ago

> Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response Was Hamas' response proportionate to Israeli actions? What actions specifically. Before you answer wildly, note that you're talking to someone who knows a dozen hostages and ex-hostages personally. Someone who knows two women whose babies were burned to death. Some whose daughter lost a close friend (that friend was slaughtered in his home along with both siblings and both parents, in their pajamas). Someone whose son's camp counselor was dragged to Gaza and murdered. I could go on. What was Hamas' actions a proportionate respond to?

ukblewis 1y ago

Your metrics are yours alone. Ask Hamas if they won? If they stay in power in Gaza, trust me, they won. Same as if the Nazis were still in control of Germany, Stalin in charge of Russia, ISIS in charge of Iraq and Syria and the Khmer Rouge in charge of Cambodia… Your suggestion that Israel stop fighting in contrast to Trump’s direct words stating that he will back Israel fully in defeating Hamas if Hamas does not accept his deal which involves them fully disarming, is essentially suggesting that Israel should accept defeat even when it has the backing of the leader of the most powerful nation on earth. Now either you are ignorant or you are intentionally malevolent in your suggestion… take your pick

DrScientist 1y ago

Sadly I think you are mistaken to paint it as an irrational Israel lashing out - that's too generous. I think it's quite the opposite - there has been a very clear, cold, calculated strategy - which is to use the conflict as an cover for doing what some in the government have always wanted to do ( and been quite open about it ) - which is to create a greater Israel - drive out all Palestinians from the river to the sea ( Gaza and West Bank ), as well as push to the river in the north into Lebanon and take more of Syria. Those in government understand the potential reputation loss - but see that as temporary and something that can be managed under the protection of the US, while viewing the gain of territory as permanent.

lossolo 1y ago
This, for Israel it was a perfect pretext. Netanyahu financed Hamas through Qatar for years because he knew that Hamas is a destructive force for Palestinians and their struggle for nationhood. It was a cold, cynical decision. He exploited the anger and emotions of the people after October 7th to justify what he is doing now.
- dlahoda 1y ago
  any links for research proving you state?
  - frm88 1y ago
    John Oliver did an In-depth analysis complete with sources in his latest Last Week Tonight. It's titled Netanyahu. Go, watch it, it is illuminating.
    - VonTum 1y ago
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Bwix9IjOE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Bwix9IjOE
    - names_are_hard 1y ago
      Unfortunately it's not available to me on YouTube: Video unavailable The uploader has not made this video available in your country :-(

austhrow743 1y ago

Israel has tried responding to attacks by not killing hundreds of thousands of people, and that approach led to October 7th. It’s been way too short a time to tell if this will work, but responding in a softer manner has proven to not. Might work is better than won’t work.

ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
>It’s been way too short a time to tell if this will work, but responding in a softer manner has proven to not. Might work is better than won’t work. Absolutely! As R.A. Lafferty correctly posited[0]: “When you have shot and killed a man you have in some measure clarified your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or worse you have acted decisively. In a way, the next move is up to him.” ― R.A. Lafferty Yes. It's up to those dead Palestinians to now make peace. And the more dead Palestinians there are, there are more who are on the hook to do so. In fact, if we kill them all, they'll be in the perfect spot to make peace, amirite? [0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11072354-when-you-have-shot-and-killed-a-man-you-have https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11072354-when-you-have-shot...

whatshisface 1y ago

They're not losing the information war against Hamas, who they can easily kill if they can identify, they're losing it against those concerned with human rights in the free world. International law (in the absence of diplomatic enforcement) has nothing to do with it, and neither does the complex and detailed history that only serves as a way for people to avoid talking about the present...

jncfhnb 1y ago

I think that’s extremely incorrect tbh. Israel saw an opportunity and they took every inch of it. They have neutered Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, and effected the fall of the Assad regime in Syria. I don’t think Israel cares about foreign civilian opinions. Western states are largely still aligned and dependent on Israeli geopolitical presence. Palestine is not and never was the focal point of this conflict. It was always Iran.

davidguetta 1y ago

"Walking into such a trap tends to be a real world-historical blunder for any nation." Such as ?

southernplaces7 1y ago

In all this description, with which I agree to a large extent except in believing the "lashing out" to have been very much deliberate, except simply murderous and grossly inept, it's worth mentioning the specific name of that murderous war criminal Netanyahu who is responsible for the majority of the decision making and impetus.

xg15 1y ago

Agreeing with the other sibling comments. I think in part it was following the same vision that the current Israeli government had been following already before Oct. 7 - they had annexation of the West Bank listed as one of the official goals of their coalition since they were elected. Another part stemmed from the extreme dehumanization of Palestinians that was already established in Israeli society long before (and to a lesser extent also in other western countries). The overton window had already been shifted so far that this kind of response was seen as mostly normal. I found the standard justifications of "eh, war is always cruel" and "when their kids grow up, they will just become the next generation of terrorists" pretty telling.

asdefghyk 1y ago

Well Hamas did write they want to kill all Israel. Hamas did slaughter , rape and torture 1200 civilians , children and babies. and take at least another 200? hostage Then paraded some of them thru Gaza. Exactly what response did Hamas expect. Also Trump has said 30,000 of the cira 60000 dead are Hamas fighters.

asdefghyk 1y ago

I thought Israel said its (strategy?) aim was to remove? Hamas so it could no longer be a threat.