7 ms·

I know some users held back on the upgrade while Windows 10 still had support, but there's many improvements to privacy & consent in Windows 7 that are worth co

by tux3 1y ago

I know some users held back on the upgrade while Windows 10 still had support, but there's many improvements to privacy & consent in Windows 7 that are worth considering, now that both are about to be equally out of their support window. It's one of the last versions where the modal dialogs ask "Yes" or "No", instead of "Yes" and "Not now", "Maybe later", or "Ask again tomorrow".

nonethewiser 1y ago
>It's one of the last versions where the modal dialogs ask "Yes" or "No", instead of "Yes" and "Not now", "Maybe later", or "Ask again tomorrow". This difference captures so much... I recently setup a minecraft server on an old windows machine and had a hard time setting it to never restart automatically. After reading some support forums I found the menu to control when it restarts but still didnt see an option to completely stop it. Eventually I found a way that I can't even recall at this point.
- westmeal 1y ago
  So much easier to run mc servers on Linux boxes. You just grab the jvm that version wants and throw everything into a folder and use the jvms java executable on the server.jar.
  - ToucanLoucan 1y ago
    Was gonna say the exact same thing. Getting Java installed is always a bit of a headache but that's really the only hard part. Once your JVM is good, everything from there is easy. And even the JVM part, it's not HARD, just annoying.
    - Symbiote 1y ago
      > Getting Java installed is always a bit of a headache apt install openjdk-21-jdk-headless Or equivalent, no?
      - westmeal 1y ago
        I wouldn't recommend doing it for mc. They keep changing and or using old jvms. What I do is I just go on oracles site and get the jdk they list that works, and run it directly from the folder. Also some distros do make it a pain lol.
        dorkypunk 1y ago
        Does it really matter? i've run Minecraft servers with Coretto 21 on Arm and had no issues at all even with the weird setup
        westmeal 1y ago
        Ive honestly never heard of coretto but it seems to be basically openjdk 21 under the hood so I don't see why that'd be a problem.
      - frollogaston 1y ago
        I haven't done this in forever, but last time the recommended OpenJDK answer was somehow not right. Got the Oracle one, had to figure out where you extract the tarball to, fix my PATH, yada yada.
        ToucanLoucan 1y ago
        ^ this was my experience yeah. Though I didn't even bother with the PATH var I just used an absolute path to the damn binary because I was frustrated.
        1718627440 1y ago
        > didn't even bother with the PATH var That sounds fine though. The PATH variable is a nicety for the user to not need to type long paths, really like using ~ for the home directory, not for program setup.
        1y ago
    - dmux 1y ago
      I'm not sure if you've tried it or not, but sdkman.io is a really handy JVM ecosystem environment manager that makes getting Java (and other JVM langs) really easy to install and switch between.
    - jandrese 1y ago
      Even on Windows it can be a hassle because so many links will send you to Java 8 which Minecraft won't run on. Even the official links on minecraft.net sent you to the version that wouldn't run Minecraft for some time.
  - nonethewiser 1y ago
    ... Thats also how you do it on windows though? I agree it's a better OS to run a minecraft server on in general.
    - westmeal 1y ago
      Of course, the OS doesn't really matter it's just easier to manage a Linux box as opposed to a windows machine half the time. Especially for a server. Theres a lot of stupid shit you'll see on consumer and even enterprise versions of Windows which I've had to unfortunately deal with for a decade in exchange for money. Since the gp mentioned how frustrating it was I can relate. Edit: also ufw is so much easier than the windows firewall. That shit drives me insane.
- hn773746483 1y ago
  Completely disabling Windows Update is very difficult, much more involved than simply disabling a service or two or a registry key. There's multiple services dedicated to monitoring / "repairing" windows update, scheduled tasks to enable those, and further tasks to repair everything completely if anything is modified. And if all of that is disabled... there's a single exe which "helpfully" re-enables and re-creates all of the necessary scheduled tasks and services, which gets called by the service manager automatically: "upfc.exe" Renaming / getting rid of this stops WaasMedic & other services from respawning.
  - Krssst 1y ago
    > There's multiple services dedicated to monitoring / "repairing" windows update, scheduled tasks to enable those, and further tasks to repair everything completely if anything is modified. Sounds like we'd need some resident anti-virus-like software dedicated to enforcing the user's choices on the OS. (but definitely do your updates so as to not become part of a botnet. Too bad the security updates must come with unneeded feature updates)
almostnormal 1y ago
Also the last one where important features were not reserved for enterprise volume licenses but available in the Pro version.
- anonymars 1y ago
  Do you have some examples?
  - Lammy 1y ago
    https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/configure-windows-spotlight-on-lock-screen https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/configure-windows-spotl... “Note: This policy is only available for Enterprise SKUs” https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/force-a-specific-default-lock-screen-and-logon-image https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/force-a-specific-defaul... “Note: This setting only applies to Enterprise, Education, and Server SKUs.” https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/disable-all-apps-from-microsoft-store https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/disable-all-apps-from-m... “This setting applies only to Enterprise and Education editions of Windows.” And of course the really important one where only Enterprise is allowed to fully disable Telemetry: https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/allow-diagnostic-data https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/allow-diagnostic-data “Diagnostic data off (not recommended). Using this value, no diagnostic data is sent from the device. This value is only supported on Enterprise, Education, and Server editions.”
    - anonymars 1y ago
      Well, you can remove the Windows spotlight stuff from the lock screen through the regular settings. Change it from Windows Spotlight to picture or whatever, and remove "Weather and more" from the "show detailed status". I'd say the ability to disable that through Group Policy stretches the definition of "important feature" I'm not sure I'd agree those policies are enough to truly argue Windows 7 was a last version to not separate out important features to Enterprise -- I'd actually instead simply make the larger point that before Windows 10, Windows wasn't a chintzy ad-driven whorehouse.
jl6 1y ago
“Improvements are available… in the previous version”. I find the idea of people upgrading from Windows 10 to Windows 7 sad and hilarious in equal measure.
rs186 1y ago
While both OSes are no longer supported, important software like Chrome still run on Windows 10 and will continue to do so for a while. Staying on Windows 7 means losing security updates, and very soon, not being able to load websites that use the latest web features.
- mapontosevenths 1y ago
  Supermium is a relatively up to date Chrome fork that will work for anything back to XP. https://github.com/win32ss/supermium https://github.com/win32ss/supermium
- hn_acc1 1y ago
  Stop selling Windows 7 so much.. As a 40-year veteran of tech, "latest web features" are usually a red flag for me more than anything.. More spying, more PII selling, more addiction attempts, etc..
  - rs186 1y ago
    https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Nesting_selector https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Nesting_sel...
- rchaud 1y ago
  > latest web features What new browser feature made in the past decade has improved the user experience?
brokencode 1y ago
I wish Microsoft would have never changed the business model of Windows away from paid upgrades. Now they have no incentive to make good upgrades. Instead, they are only incentivized to add privacy-compromising services that nobody wants or asked for.
- mielioort 1y ago
  Nice window you have there, would be a shame if somebody threw a upgrade into it.. should pay insurrance and protection money, so we could save things from "pimprovements"
landl0rd 1y ago
I ran Linux for many years. But I needed to run some software that only supported windows and mac, and wine didn't cut it, so I had to reinstall windows. I can't tolerate windows. I put up with 10 for a while then went back to 7. 7 was good. Then some stuff wasn't supported so I moved to 11. Couldn't do it. I'd get random garbage like a notification for some "grand prize giveaway". I legit thought I'd gotten adware installed somehow. Nope, official Microsoft notification! Want to configure the system at all? Keep defender from trashing your CPU for fifteen minutes after you compile something? Stop auto-restarts that close everything? Use actual sleep not the weird "connected sleep" nonsense? Tough, you don't get to. If you do it anyway it will revert after your next update (mandatory btw!) or sometimes just at random. I can't remember a version since 7 that doesn't make me feel like I'm in a bazaar being accosted by freaking rug merchants. I used to hate macs. I switched to a macbook. I am much happier now despite the occasional annoyances.
- fakedang 1y ago
  The Windows 11 home version has all the adware garbage. The Pro version is cleaner.
- WD-42 1y ago
  Same experience, but from using 11 in a VM. Installing it is eye opening, with all the unskippable Eulas that force you to agree to share your data. I’m convinced it’s a frog in boiling water situation for people still using windows. It’s so bad.
  - nine_k 1y ago
    Hear me out: MS Excel. The one true powerful version only exists on Windows. Another anchor: ODBC drivers. Some good SQL Server connectivity options are only available on Windows. When your captive audience is accountants, traders, and CFOs, it's quite a moat.
    - larrik 1y ago
      And then, somehow, the desktop Outlook is better on mac than on Windows. On Windows I can't even easily copy/paste from one email to another. It strips out half the formatting and any colors that were there. Nor can I copy email recipients from an email into a new one. I tried switching to Windows last year and I just couldn't do it. So now my expensive and fancy powerful laptop collects dust and I'm back to my 5 year old m1 (which is somehow faster, usually).
pinkmuffinere 1y ago
Oh my god i HATE the lack of a “no” option! I’ve been meaning to go find a guide for editing registry to disable the windows 11 upgrade requests, but now I worry that might not exist?
MangoToupe 1y ago
If "support" doesn't allow opting out of their actively user-hostile decision making, I seriously question the value of "support" at all. In many ways I'd rather my computer go to some Russian botnet than trust an American corporation with my data—at least the former has a chance of getting shut down.
smileybarry 1y ago
Windows 7 is still dramatically less secure by design (i.e. not missing patches but architectural changes) compared to Windows 10, even Windows 8 had some meaningful kernel security features that 7 lacks. This includes sandboxing measures that Chrome & Firefox use, meaning you're still less secure even if you're not downloading shady software. You're frankly better off applying a bunch of registry changes to 10, using a Education or N (EU) edition "illegally", or blocking DNS than going back to 7 just for privacy concerns. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  I don't know much about MS Windows, but can you install Windows 7 and then install a newer kernel? Maybe also updating the kernel wrapping library?
  - smileybarry 1y ago
    No, they're tightly coupled together. Even same-release updates update both the kernel and the userland syscall-implementing DLLs to match.
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      Ok, can you update the kernel and the userland syscall-implementing DLLs?
      - smileybarry 1y ago
        Well, that's essentially Windows Update.
        1718627440 1y ago
        But this will install other stuff as well and might even upgrade the distro. I just want to update the kernel and its wrapper. Or does nobody have tried it and I would need to figure it out myself.
McAlpine5892 1y ago
Makes me think of notices around adult clubs I've seen such as: "CONSENT: A clear and unambiguous agreement, expressed outwardly through mutually understandable words or actions, to engage in a particular activity. Consent can be withdrawn by either party at any point." and "No means No" What I'm about to say is strongly worded and I understand not a _perfect_ analogy by any means. However, it does sum up my feelings on this issue. If Person A makes repeated unwanted advances towards Person B, we have words to describe that. But if Person A, a company, makes repeated unwanted advances towards Person B we call that business.
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
  Yes, the decisive difference is, that Microsoft does not act like an adult, you see? That's why the rules do not apply to them. :)

by tux3 1y ago

nonethewiser 1y ago

>It's one of the last versions where the modal dialogs ask "Yes" or "No", instead of "Yes" and "Not now", "Maybe later", or "Ask again tomorrow". This difference captures so much... I recently setup a minecraft server on an old windows machine and had a hard time setting it to never restart automatically. After reading some support forums I found the menu to control when it restarts but still didnt see an option to completely stop it. Eventually I found a way that I can't even recall at this point.

westmeal 1y ago
So much easier to run mc servers on Linux boxes. You just grab the jvm that version wants and throw everything into a folder and use the jvms java executable on the server.jar.
- ToucanLoucan 1y ago
  Was gonna say the exact same thing. Getting Java installed is always a bit of a headache but that's really the only hard part. Once your JVM is good, everything from there is easy. And even the JVM part, it's not HARD, just annoying.
  - Symbiote 1y ago
    > Getting Java installed is always a bit of a headache apt install openjdk-21-jdk-headless Or equivalent, no?
    - westmeal 1y ago
      I wouldn't recommend doing it for mc. They keep changing and or using old jvms. What I do is I just go on oracles site and get the jdk they list that works, and run it directly from the folder. Also some distros do make it a pain lol.
      - dorkypunk 1y ago
        Does it really matter? i've run Minecraft servers with Coretto 21 on Arm and had no issues at all even with the weird setup
        westmeal 1y ago
        Ive honestly never heard of coretto but it seems to be basically openjdk 21 under the hood so I don't see why that'd be a problem.
    - frollogaston 1y ago
      I haven't done this in forever, but last time the recommended OpenJDK answer was somehow not right. Got the Oracle one, had to figure out where you extract the tarball to, fix my PATH, yada yada.
      - ToucanLoucan 1y ago
        ^ this was my experience yeah. Though I didn't even bother with the PATH var I just used an absolute path to the damn binary because I was frustrated.
        1718627440 1y ago
        > didn't even bother with the PATH var That sounds fine though. The PATH variable is a nicety for the user to not need to type long paths, really like using ~ for the home directory, not for program setup.
        1y ago
  - dmux 1y ago
    I'm not sure if you've tried it or not, but sdkman.io is a really handy JVM ecosystem environment manager that makes getting Java (and other JVM langs) really easy to install and switch between.
  - jandrese 1y ago
    Even on Windows it can be a hassle because so many links will send you to Java 8 which Minecraft won't run on. Even the official links on minecraft.net sent you to the version that wouldn't run Minecraft for some time.
- nonethewiser 1y ago
  ... Thats also how you do it on windows though? I agree it's a better OS to run a minecraft server on in general.
  - westmeal 1y ago
    Of course, the OS doesn't really matter it's just easier to manage a Linux box as opposed to a windows machine half the time. Especially for a server. Theres a lot of stupid shit you'll see on consumer and even enterprise versions of Windows which I've had to unfortunately deal with for a decade in exchange for money. Since the gp mentioned how frustrating it was I can relate. Edit: also ufw is so much easier than the windows firewall. That shit drives me insane.
hn773746483 1y ago
Completely disabling Windows Update is very difficult, much more involved than simply disabling a service or two or a registry key. There's multiple services dedicated to monitoring / "repairing" windows update, scheduled tasks to enable those, and further tasks to repair everything completely if anything is modified. And if all of that is disabled... there's a single exe which "helpfully" re-enables and re-creates all of the necessary scheduled tasks and services, which gets called by the service manager automatically: "upfc.exe" Renaming / getting rid of this stops WaasMedic & other services from respawning.
- Krssst 1y ago
  > There's multiple services dedicated to monitoring / "repairing" windows update, scheduled tasks to enable those, and further tasks to repair everything completely if anything is modified. Sounds like we'd need some resident anti-virus-like software dedicated to enforcing the user's choices on the OS. (but definitely do your updates so as to not become part of a botnet. Too bad the security updates must come with unneeded feature updates)

almostnormal 1y ago

Also the last one where important features were not reserved for enterprise volume licenses but available in the Pro version.

anonymars 1y ago
Do you have some examples?
- Lammy 1y ago
  https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/configure-windows-spotlight-on-lock-screen https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/configure-windows-spotl... “Note: This policy is only available for Enterprise SKUs” https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/force-a-specific-default-lock-screen-and-logon-image https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/force-a-specific-defaul... “Note: This setting only applies to Enterprise, Education, and Server SKUs.” https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/disable-all-apps-from-microsoft-store https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/disable-all-apps-from-m... “This setting applies only to Enterprise and Education editions of Windows.” And of course the really important one where only Enterprise is allowed to fully disable Telemetry: https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/allow-diagnostic-data https://admx.cengizyilmaz.net/policy/allow-diagnostic-data “Diagnostic data off (not recommended). Using this value, no diagnostic data is sent from the device. This value is only supported on Enterprise, Education, and Server editions.”
  - anonymars 1y ago
    Well, you can remove the Windows spotlight stuff from the lock screen through the regular settings. Change it from Windows Spotlight to picture or whatever, and remove "Weather and more" from the "show detailed status". I'd say the ability to disable that through Group Policy stretches the definition of "important feature" I'm not sure I'd agree those policies are enough to truly argue Windows 7 was a last version to not separate out important features to Enterprise -- I'd actually instead simply make the larger point that before Windows 10, Windows wasn't a chintzy ad-driven whorehouse.

jl6 1y ago

“Improvements are available… in the previous version”. I find the idea of people upgrading from Windows 10 to Windows 7 sad and hilarious in equal measure.

rs186 1y ago

While both OSes are no longer supported, important software like Chrome still run on Windows 10 and will continue to do so for a while. Staying on Windows 7 means losing security updates, and very soon, not being able to load websites that use the latest web features.

mapontosevenths 1y ago
Supermium is a relatively up to date Chrome fork that will work for anything back to XP. https://github.com/win32ss/supermium https://github.com/win32ss/supermium
hn_acc1 1y ago
Stop selling Windows 7 so much.. As a 40-year veteran of tech, "latest web features" are usually a red flag for me more than anything.. More spying, more PII selling, more addiction attempts, etc..
- rs186 1y ago
  https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Nesting_selector https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Nesting_sel...
rchaud 1y ago
> latest web features What new browser feature made in the past decade has improved the user experience?

brokencode 1y ago

I wish Microsoft would have never changed the business model of Windows away from paid upgrades. Now they have no incentive to make good upgrades. Instead, they are only incentivized to add privacy-compromising services that nobody wants or asked for.

mielioort 1y ago
Nice window you have there, would be a shame if somebody threw a upgrade into it.. should pay insurrance and protection money, so we could save things from "pimprovements"

landl0rd 1y ago

I ran Linux for many years. But I needed to run some software that only supported windows and mac, and wine didn't cut it, so I had to reinstall windows. I can't tolerate windows. I put up with 10 for a while then went back to 7. 7 was good. Then some stuff wasn't supported so I moved to 11. Couldn't do it. I'd get random garbage like a notification for some "grand prize giveaway". I legit thought I'd gotten adware installed somehow. Nope, official Microsoft notification! Want to configure the system at all? Keep defender from trashing your CPU for fifteen minutes after you compile something? Stop auto-restarts that close everything? Use actual sleep not the weird "connected sleep" nonsense? Tough, you don't get to. If you do it anyway it will revert after your next update (mandatory btw!) or sometimes just at random. I can't remember a version since 7 that doesn't make me feel like I'm in a bazaar being accosted by freaking rug merchants. I used to hate macs. I switched to a macbook. I am much happier now despite the occasional annoyances.

fakedang 1y ago
The Windows 11 home version has all the adware garbage. The Pro version is cleaner.
WD-42 1y ago
Same experience, but from using 11 in a VM. Installing it is eye opening, with all the unskippable Eulas that force you to agree to share your data. I’m convinced it’s a frog in boiling water situation for people still using windows. It’s so bad.
- nine_k 1y ago
  Hear me out: MS Excel. The one true powerful version only exists on Windows. Another anchor: ODBC drivers. Some good SQL Server connectivity options are only available on Windows. When your captive audience is accountants, traders, and CFOs, it's quite a moat.
  - larrik 1y ago
    And then, somehow, the desktop Outlook is better on mac than on Windows. On Windows I can't even easily copy/paste from one email to another. It strips out half the formatting and any colors that were there. Nor can I copy email recipients from an email into a new one. I tried switching to Windows last year and I just couldn't do it. So now my expensive and fancy powerful laptop collects dust and I'm back to my 5 year old m1 (which is somehow faster, usually).

pinkmuffinere 1y ago

Oh my god i HATE the lack of a “no” option! I’ve been meaning to go find a guide for editing registry to disable the windows 11 upgrade requests, but now I worry that might not exist?

MangoToupe 1y ago

If "support" doesn't allow opting out of their actively user-hostile decision making, I seriously question the value of "support" at all. In many ways I'd rather my computer go to some Russian botnet than trust an American corporation with my data—at least the former has a chance of getting shut down.

smileybarry 1y ago

Windows 7 is still dramatically less secure by design (i.e. not missing patches but architectural changes) compared to Windows 10, even Windows 8 had some meaningful kernel security features that 7 lacks. This includes sandboxing measures that Chrome & Firefox use, meaning you're still less secure even if you're not downloading shady software. You're frankly better off applying a bunch of registry changes to 10, using a Education or N (EU) edition "illegally", or blocking DNS than going back to 7 just for privacy concerns. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

1718627440 1y ago
I don't know much about MS Windows, but can you install Windows 7 and then install a newer kernel? Maybe also updating the kernel wrapping library?
- smileybarry 1y ago
  No, they're tightly coupled together. Even same-release updates update both the kernel and the userland syscall-implementing DLLs to match.
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    Ok, can you update the kernel and the userland syscall-implementing DLLs?
    - smileybarry 1y ago
      Well, that's essentially Windows Update.
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        But this will install other stuff as well and might even upgrade the distro. I just want to update the kernel and its wrapper. Or does nobody have tried it and I would need to figure it out myself.

McAlpine5892 1y ago

Makes me think of notices around adult clubs I've seen such as: "CONSENT: A clear and unambiguous agreement, expressed outwardly through mutually understandable words or actions, to engage in a particular activity. Consent can be withdrawn by either party at any point." and "No means No" What I'm about to say is strongly worded and I understand not a _perfect_ analogy by any means. However, it does sum up my feelings on this issue. If Person A makes repeated unwanted advances towards Person B, we have words to describe that. But if Person A, a company, makes repeated unwanted advances towards Person B we call that business.

zelphirkalt 1y ago
Yes, the decisive difference is, that Microsoft does not act like an adult, you see? That's why the rules do not apply to them. :)