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There is a bizarre reverence and worship for China I have observed with some Americans. Yes, you can build things faster and have smooth 5% YoY growth if you do

There is a bizarre reverence and worship for China I have observed with some Americans. Yes, you can build things faster and have smooth 5% YoY growth if you don’t have property rights and manipulate the statistics

cpursley 1y ago
90% of Chinese own their own properties vs 65% of Americans, so there's that. Regarding property rights, I'm not sure how it works there but we've all seen the malls and highways that diverted around homes where owners were unwilling to sell out. Also, they actually have functional public infrastructure and have brought something like 800 million out of abject poverty. Are ahead of us in several spaces and about to pass us or at least equal us in others. Obviously I'm not arguing for that type of top down authoritarian system, but this is the objective reality. What's bizarre actually is all the denialism and copium over China - should we not be glad that they are doing better than they were 30 years ago and much more liberal than before?
- monero-xmr 1y ago
  Give the average person in china the opportunity to move to America, and vice versa, there is no comparison. China has done some things right but to pretend it is some model for America is absurd
  - yibg 1y ago
    This is a pretty outdated view of things too. Majority of chinese students return to china after getting their degree in the US.
    - yadaeno 1y ago
      That is in large part to our nightmare immigration system.
  - what-the-grump 1y ago
    The average person in America is living paycheck to paycheck and has negative equity. 20 years ago you couldn’t see in Shanghai. Trump pulled back the clean air act, it’s not hard to see a trend. It’s also not hard to buy a ticket and see it yourself.
    - cpursley 1y ago
      Great point, I almost wrote that they’ve cleaned up pollution (of all types) by a lot and also are accomplish some impressive feats by regreening and pushing back desertification. Amazing things can happen when you get your peoples basic needs met (ie, they can focus on higher level stuff).
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - esbranson 1y ago
      Regarding "not owning anything", I think you need to look up communism and consider if that's better there.
      - grafmax 1y ago
        60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. It depends on which Americans you are looking at if you want to understand who capitalist ownership is benefiting.
        esbranson 1y ago
        100% of communists own nothing and live bureaucrat to bureaucrat. It does not depend on which Americans we are looking at to know who is benefiting.
        what-the-grump 1y ago
        But thats not the reality of China right? People own cars, apartments, TVs, refrigerators, they are not distributed centrally.
  - reilly3000 1y ago
    I would absolutely take a chance to live in China, but I wouldn’t expect to be welcomed there. Their tech, disposable income, food costs, etc are so superior to what we have today in US.
    - ipaddr 1y ago
      Many Americans live in China. Give it a shot.
    - snarf_br 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - esbranson 1y ago
      "Superior". 你不是认真人. Though you would probably be welcomed.
  - cpursley 1y ago
    Yo, I literally pointed out that I’m not for this model. But thanks for the comment?
- Scoundreller 1y ago
  > 90% of Chinese own their own properties By "own" you mean 70 year leases with ??? renewal conditions? > Urban land use rights in Mainland China were typically granted for fixed terms: 70 years for residential, 50 years for office or industrial, and 40 years for commercial purposes. As these terms approach expiration, the question of renewal becomes paramount. The legal framework, primarily the Property Law and the Urban Real Estate Administration Law, provides a general outline but leaves specific implementation to local governments. > Mainland China’s Property Law (Article 149) and The Civil Code of Mainland China (Article 359) guarantee automatic residential land use right renewals but provides no specific arrangement in respect of non-residential terms. Currently, without detailed implementation guidelines, local governments devise varied approaches, skewing valuations and unsettling investors. This uncertainty hinders market efficiency. https://www.cushmanwakefield.com/en/greater-china/insights/blog/navigating-mainland-chinas-land-use-right-renewal-landscape https://www.cushmanwakefield.com/en/greater-china/insights/b... But yeah, you could argue that you have to pay property taxes in USA and if you don't, you'll eventually lose your land
  - jimmydoe 1y ago
    If you follow the public policy discussions in China, you’ll likely notice more complication surrounding the 70-year leases. Basically everyone already feel they own the property, the government’s forceful attempt to reclaim property would be counterproductive and unlikely to succeed. Additionally, many government officials are not particularly fond of this policy. They prefer property tax like US. Individuals currently do not pay property tax in China, they are reluctant to pay property tax and argue that they have indirectly paid them when purchasing property. Consequently, the property tax and ownership restructuring are essentially stuck in a stalemate.
  - akk0 1y ago
    I agree that that is a meaningful difference, but since I expect to be be on my last legs at best 70 years from now, it really doesn't make much of a difference to me, especially when contrasted to here where my home owning plans amount to little more than "hopefully the housing market will collapse"
hearsathought 1y ago
> There is a bizarre reverence and worship for China I have observed with some Americans. No. There isn't. It's just that we've gotten sick of the bullshit and lies from the anti-china propagandists like you. > Yes, you can build things faster and have smooth 5% YoY growth if you don’t have property rights and manipulate the statistics If they can build things faster, what need is there to manipulate the statistics? If the chinese don't have property rights, then how come they own so much property? When you and your kind spout such nonsense over and over again, people tend to get sick of it.
- Our_Benefactors 1y ago
  > If they can build things faster, what need is there to manipulate the statistics? A lot to unpack here. You completely blipped over the part about “no property rights” which is pretty clear when you look at, for example, how their rail construction projects go. Choochoo, rail is coming through, time to move this village, no eminent domain payments necessary. > If the chinese don't have property rights, then how come they own so much property? If ownership of a half-finished concrete shell by a bankrupt construction firm on the 33rd floor is counted as “owning property”, then the statistics will look pretty good.
  - hearsathought 1y ago
    > You completely blipped over the part about “no property rights” which is pretty clear when you look at, for example, how their rail construction projects go. Choochoo, rail is coming through, time to move this village Better than exterminating the natives to build railroads? Using your logic we don't have property rights in the US either. > no eminent domain payments necessary. Doesn't explain nail houses though. https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/asia/gallery/china-nail-houses https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/asia/gallery/china-nail-house... > If ownership of a half-finished concrete shell by a bankrupt construction firm on the 33rd floor is counted as “owning property”, then the statistics will look pretty good. Yes. 1.4 billion people live in half-finished concrete shells. Come up with something better. You guys are getting boring repeating the same nonsense over and over again.
2muchcoffeeman 1y ago
You’re simply mistaking the acknowledgment of their successes as reverence. I don’t have to agree with someone or something to give them credit.
- monero-xmr 1y ago
  The very reason that China can bulldoze thousands of homes for a new highway or train, are the very things that would make an American scream “fascism” at an authoritarian government
  - kg 1y ago
    Bulldozing homes to make room for a highway or train is an American tradition, even if we do it less often now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses#Criticism_and_The_Power_Broker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses#Criticism_and_The... > Moses's critics charge that he preferred automobiles over people. They point out that he displaced hundreds of thousands of residents in New York City and destroyed traditional neighborhoods by building multiple expressways through them. The projects contributed to the ruin of the South Bronx and the amusement parks of Coney Island, caused the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants Major League Baseball teams to relocate to Los Angeles and San Francisco respectively, and precipitated the decline of public transport from disinvestment and neglect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain_in_the_United_S...
    - throwaway173738 1y ago
      There used to be an entire road and tenement houses in Seattle where I5 is now. They’ve also taken all or part of many properties abutting the new rail project.
      - Yeul 1y ago
        For us Westerners our highway system was already pretty much complete by the 1980s so none of us actually remember how it went. But when we see pictures in historybooks you will see sprawling construction sites with bulldozers...
more_corn 1y ago
I don’t think I have any illusions. I’d never want to live under Chinese censorship, lack of civil rights, the weird errors caused by centralized economic control. But I can also acknowledge some of the things they do well. Having a nuanced view of a complex topic is probably essential for proper understanding.
- ponector 1y ago
  How about this: I’d never want to live under Trump's censorship, lack of civil rights, the weird errors caused by centralized economic control
  - Nervhq 1y ago
    Luckily if enough Americans agree with you in a few more years you can vote him out. Can you say the same for Winnie the poo (xi) I have a feeling however, that since the leftist priorities these days are so ridiculous to the regular voter that you'll just get another republican president
    - Daishiman 1y ago
      > Luckily if enough Americans agree with you in a few more years you can vote him out. Can you say the same for Winnie the poo (xi) You are weirdly naive about thinking Trump has any respect for democracy and that his camp isn't going to do everything possible to maintain power at all cost.
      - yadaeno 1y ago
        It has nothing to do with what trump wants. If public opinion changes he will be voted out it’s that simple.
- jijijijij 1y ago
  Also, if many western countries don’t get their shit together, their lives will be greatly influenced by China at current trajectory. Which particularly involves the negatives. China's success should be motivation to many western ex-empires, excellence nostalgia hubs and industrial graveyards. And yeah, credit where credit is due, I think no observer seriously doubts the great feat China pulled off in such a short period of time, even if the stats are not reliable. People travel there, Jobs warned about this years ago. And between US, Russia and Israel, China is the least obnoxious villain in my news feed. They somehow conquer the world without cringe overdrive and the undignified post-pretending social media executive memefare. China does not make me wanna drive a dining fork into my frontal lobe, it’s more like the cough that doesn’t go away.
bamboozled 1y ago
Seems to be a lot of bizarre worship in the USA these days.
jordanb 1y ago
I once heard someone say "China is the only country in the world who knows on Jan 1st what their GDP for the year is going to be."
woooooo 1y ago
There's also a bizarre need to simultaneously downplay them and fear them in other Americans. If they're so weak, why the fear? They have high speed rail connecting the whole country, and lots of other stuff which is real and not a number in a spreadsheet. They crashed their housing sector by building too much.
- esbranson 1y ago
  We have roads connecting the whole country. (And the world.) And motor vehicles which a hundred years later we now call cars. We like China's progress. But let's keep it real.
  - fatata123 1y ago
    [dead]
StopDisinfo910 1y ago
American relationship to China is frankly weird on every sides. Between the ones who apparently can’t fathom a world where other countries are as economically successful as the USA and see it as a threat and the ones who are fascinated by its authoritarian policies, it’s really hard to have a dispassionate conversation involving China.

cpursley 1y ago

90% of Chinese own their own properties vs 65% of Americans, so there's that. Regarding property rights, I'm not sure how it works there but we've all seen the malls and highways that diverted around homes where owners were unwilling to sell out. Also, they actually have functional public infrastructure and have brought something like 800 million out of abject poverty. Are ahead of us in several spaces and about to pass us or at least equal us in others. Obviously I'm not arguing for that type of top down authoritarian system, but this is the objective reality. What's bizarre actually is all the denialism and copium over China - should we not be glad that they are doing better than they were 30 years ago and much more liberal than before?

monero-xmr 1y ago
Give the average person in china the opportunity to move to America, and vice versa, there is no comparison. China has done some things right but to pretend it is some model for America is absurd
- yibg 1y ago
  This is a pretty outdated view of things too. Majority of chinese students return to china after getting their degree in the US.
  - yadaeno 1y ago
    That is in large part to our nightmare immigration system.
- what-the-grump 1y ago
  The average person in America is living paycheck to paycheck and has negative equity. 20 years ago you couldn’t see in Shanghai. Trump pulled back the clean air act, it’s not hard to see a trend. It’s also not hard to buy a ticket and see it yourself.
  - cpursley 1y ago
    Great point, I almost wrote that they’ve cleaned up pollution (of all types) by a lot and also are accomplish some impressive feats by regreening and pushing back desertification. Amazing things can happen when you get your peoples basic needs met (ie, they can focus on higher level stuff).
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - esbranson 1y ago
    Regarding "not owning anything", I think you need to look up communism and consider if that's better there.
    - grafmax 1y ago
      60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. It depends on which Americans you are looking at if you want to understand who capitalist ownership is benefiting.
      - esbranson 1y ago
        100% of communists own nothing and live bureaucrat to bureaucrat. It does not depend on which Americans we are looking at to know who is benefiting.
        what-the-grump 1y ago
        But thats not the reality of China right? People own cars, apartments, TVs, refrigerators, they are not distributed centrally.
- reilly3000 1y ago
  I would absolutely take a chance to live in China, but I wouldn’t expect to be welcomed there. Their tech, disposable income, food costs, etc are so superior to what we have today in US.
  - ipaddr 1y ago
    Many Americans live in China. Give it a shot.
  - snarf_br 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - esbranson 1y ago
    "Superior". 你不是认真人. Though you would probably be welcomed.
- cpursley 1y ago
  Yo, I literally pointed out that I’m not for this model. But thanks for the comment?
Scoundreller 1y ago
> 90% of Chinese own their own properties By "own" you mean 70 year leases with ??? renewal conditions? > Urban land use rights in Mainland China were typically granted for fixed terms: 70 years for residential, 50 years for office or industrial, and 40 years for commercial purposes. As these terms approach expiration, the question of renewal becomes paramount. The legal framework, primarily the Property Law and the Urban Real Estate Administration Law, provides a general outline but leaves specific implementation to local governments. > Mainland China’s Property Law (Article 149) and The Civil Code of Mainland China (Article 359) guarantee automatic residential land use right renewals but provides no specific arrangement in respect of non-residential terms. Currently, without detailed implementation guidelines, local governments devise varied approaches, skewing valuations and unsettling investors. This uncertainty hinders market efficiency. https://www.cushmanwakefield.com/en/greater-china/insights/blog/navigating-mainland-chinas-land-use-right-renewal-landscape https://www.cushmanwakefield.com/en/greater-china/insights/b... But yeah, you could argue that you have to pay property taxes in USA and if you don't, you'll eventually lose your land
- jimmydoe 1y ago
  If you follow the public policy discussions in China, you’ll likely notice more complication surrounding the 70-year leases. Basically everyone already feel they own the property, the government’s forceful attempt to reclaim property would be counterproductive and unlikely to succeed. Additionally, many government officials are not particularly fond of this policy. They prefer property tax like US. Individuals currently do not pay property tax in China, they are reluctant to pay property tax and argue that they have indirectly paid them when purchasing property. Consequently, the property tax and ownership restructuring are essentially stuck in a stalemate.
- akk0 1y ago
  I agree that that is a meaningful difference, but since I expect to be be on my last legs at best 70 years from now, it really doesn't make much of a difference to me, especially when contrasted to here where my home owning plans amount to little more than "hopefully the housing market will collapse"

hearsathought 1y ago

> There is a bizarre reverence and worship for China I have observed with some Americans. No. There isn't. It's just that we've gotten sick of the bullshit and lies from the anti-china propagandists like you. > Yes, you can build things faster and have smooth 5% YoY growth if you don’t have property rights and manipulate the statistics If they can build things faster, what need is there to manipulate the statistics? If the chinese don't have property rights, then how come they own so much property? When you and your kind spout such nonsense over and over again, people tend to get sick of it.

Our_Benefactors 1y ago
> If they can build things faster, what need is there to manipulate the statistics? A lot to unpack here. You completely blipped over the part about “no property rights” which is pretty clear when you look at, for example, how their rail construction projects go. Choochoo, rail is coming through, time to move this village, no eminent domain payments necessary. > If the chinese don't have property rights, then how come they own so much property? If ownership of a half-finished concrete shell by a bankrupt construction firm on the 33rd floor is counted as “owning property”, then the statistics will look pretty good.
- hearsathought 1y ago
  > You completely blipped over the part about “no property rights” which is pretty clear when you look at, for example, how their rail construction projects go. Choochoo, rail is coming through, time to move this village Better than exterminating the natives to build railroads? Using your logic we don't have property rights in the US either. > no eminent domain payments necessary. Doesn't explain nail houses though. https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/asia/gallery/china-nail-houses https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/19/asia/gallery/china-nail-house... > If ownership of a half-finished concrete shell by a bankrupt construction firm on the 33rd floor is counted as “owning property”, then the statistics will look pretty good. Yes. 1.4 billion people live in half-finished concrete shells. Come up with something better. You guys are getting boring repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

2muchcoffeeman 1y ago

You’re simply mistaking the acknowledgment of their successes as reverence. I don’t have to agree with someone or something to give them credit.

monero-xmr 1y ago
The very reason that China can bulldoze thousands of homes for a new highway or train, are the very things that would make an American scream “fascism” at an authoritarian government
- kg 1y ago
  Bulldozing homes to make room for a highway or train is an American tradition, even if we do it less often now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses#Criticism_and_The_Power_Broker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses#Criticism_and_The... > Moses's critics charge that he preferred automobiles over people. They point out that he displaced hundreds of thousands of residents in New York City and destroyed traditional neighborhoods by building multiple expressways through them. The projects contributed to the ruin of the South Bronx and the amusement parks of Coney Island, caused the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants Major League Baseball teams to relocate to Los Angeles and San Francisco respectively, and precipitated the decline of public transport from disinvestment and neglect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain_in_the_United_S...
  - throwaway173738 1y ago
    There used to be an entire road and tenement houses in Seattle where I5 is now. They’ve also taken all or part of many properties abutting the new rail project.
    - Yeul 1y ago
      For us Westerners our highway system was already pretty much complete by the 1980s so none of us actually remember how it went. But when we see pictures in historybooks you will see sprawling construction sites with bulldozers...

more_corn 1y ago

I don’t think I have any illusions. I’d never want to live under Chinese censorship, lack of civil rights, the weird errors caused by centralized economic control. But I can also acknowledge some of the things they do well. Having a nuanced view of a complex topic is probably essential for proper understanding.

ponector 1y ago
How about this: I’d never want to live under Trump's censorship, lack of civil rights, the weird errors caused by centralized economic control
- Nervhq 1y ago
  Luckily if enough Americans agree with you in a few more years you can vote him out. Can you say the same for Winnie the poo (xi) I have a feeling however, that since the leftist priorities these days are so ridiculous to the regular voter that you'll just get another republican president
  - Daishiman 1y ago
    > Luckily if enough Americans agree with you in a few more years you can vote him out. Can you say the same for Winnie the poo (xi) You are weirdly naive about thinking Trump has any respect for democracy and that his camp isn't going to do everything possible to maintain power at all cost.
    - yadaeno 1y ago
      It has nothing to do with what trump wants. If public opinion changes he will be voted out it’s that simple.
jijijijij 1y ago
Also, if many western countries don’t get their shit together, their lives will be greatly influenced by China at current trajectory. Which particularly involves the negatives. China's success should be motivation to many western ex-empires, excellence nostalgia hubs and industrial graveyards. And yeah, credit where credit is due, I think no observer seriously doubts the great feat China pulled off in such a short period of time, even if the stats are not reliable. People travel there, Jobs warned about this years ago. And between US, Russia and Israel, China is the least obnoxious villain in my news feed. They somehow conquer the world without cringe overdrive and the undignified post-pretending social media executive memefare. China does not make me wanna drive a dining fork into my frontal lobe, it’s more like the cough that doesn’t go away.

bamboozled 1y ago

Seems to be a lot of bizarre worship in the USA these days.

jordanb 1y ago

I once heard someone say "China is the only country in the world who knows on Jan 1st what their GDP for the year is going to be."

woooooo 1y ago

There's also a bizarre need to simultaneously downplay them and fear them in other Americans. If they're so weak, why the fear? They have high speed rail connecting the whole country, and lots of other stuff which is real and not a number in a spreadsheet. They crashed their housing sector by building too much.

esbranson 1y ago
We have roads connecting the whole country. (And the world.) And motor vehicles which a hundred years later we now call cars. We like China's progress. But let's keep it real.
- fatata123 1y ago
  [dead]

StopDisinfo910 1y ago

American relationship to China is frankly weird on every sides. Between the ones who apparently can’t fathom a world where other countries are as economically successful as the USA and see it as a threat and the ones who are fascinated by its authoritarian policies, it’s really hard to have a dispassionate conversation involving China.