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Flipping the U.S. really is the key to ending this conflict. The U.S. reliably uses its security council veto to nix any meaningful UN response and the U.S. re

by beloch 1y ago

Flipping the U.S. really is the key to ending this conflict. The U.S. reliably uses its security council veto to nix any meaningful UN response and the U.S. remains, by far, the biggest supplier of arms to the IDF. If the US were to stop veto'ing everything and cut off the IDF's supply of, at least, some types of weapons, the new ground assault would likely end quickly. Unfortunately, that isn't likely to happen. Netanyahu has, to date, handled Trump deftly and Rubio's current presence in Israel seems to be aimed at offering support to the ground offensive, not opposition. I honestly have no idea what kind of backlash it would take to shake U.S. support for this genocide.

flyinglizard 1y ago
[flagged]
jcranmer 1y ago
There's definitely a generational gap going in the US. Support for Israel is not popular among the younger generation in the US, and there's a good deal of voters in their 20s and 30s for whom support for Israel a red line in candidates. But older generations tend to be staunchly in favor of Israel, and too much of the gerontocratic political class thinks that pro-Israel uber alles is the key to winning votes. It is worth noting that Andrew Cuomo, in a desperate last-minute gamble to boost support in the NYC mayoral race, has come out against Israel. Considering that much of the attacks on Mamdani have focused on his support for Palestine (construing him as antisemitic), it's notable that other candidates also seem to think that being anti-Israel is actually the vote winner for moderates right now.
- flyinglizard 1y ago
  That gap between support of Israel across age groups existed historically AFAIK, although the margins were narrower. More worrying for Israel is that it's becoming a partisan issue. That goes to both ends - previously unthinkable, unwavering support under Republicans but a very short leash under the Democrats.
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > More worrying for Israel is that it's becoming a partisan issue. A highly salient political issue becoming partisan is a good thing in a representative democracy, as that is the only thing that makes it possible for the public to influence it by general election votes.
    - throwaway3060 1y ago
      In FPTP, this often ends up backfiring. A politicized issue quickly becomes a polarized issue - the other side takes the opposite view, and both sides then race to the extremes. Compromise becomes less and less possible, because then each side sees it as a defeat. Nothing ends up done.
      - bluGill 1y ago
        Worse there is always more than one issue. Now I can't even find someone in my own party to support as the race has brought them all the same way on this. And so I either support one of them anyway for other issues or I leave.
      - dragonwriter 1y ago
        > In FPTP, this often ends up backfiring. Every possible alignment of circumstances “backfires” in FPTP because FPTP is a fundamentally bad way to elect a legislature. That’s not a problem of, e.g., salient political issues becoming partisan—representing a coherent position on salient issues is the only useful thing parties can do—it is a problem of FPTP.
- sfink 1y ago
  I wouldn't label this as "support for Israel"/"against Israel". One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. Many within Israel are not happy with Netanyahu's methods, and presumably they are not against Israel. I understand that that's the current shorthand, but it seems inaccurate and unnecessarily polarizing to me.
  - caycep 1y ago
    This is what puzzles me - ppl keep railing about being pro or anti Israel and it's overly simplistic and also not really accurately describing things. It's more pro/anti Likud or Kahanists, or really at heart a right vs left wing divide. There's still plenty of Labor or more progressive elements of the Israeli public who are against what Netanyahu and his political allies are doing.
    - throwaway3060 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - throw310822 1y ago
      Israel was literally born out of political scheming to get assigned a portion of someone else's territory for an exclusive ethno-nationalistic state; then out of ethnically cleansing that territory. It was necessary to the project and planned in advanced. You can be for the existence of a peaceful Israel that has entirely retreated within recognised borders and made amends for its past genocidal behaviour- but it's not what the current Israel is or, sadly, can ever be. > There's still plenty of Labor or more progressive elements of the Israeli public who are against... No. Not at all.
      - klipt 1y ago
        [flagged]
        throw310822 1y ago
        > Shouldn't similar preconditions of making amends apply to whether or not we accept the existence of those Arab states? And what if they should? Do you think it make Israel's genocide look better now? Stop trying to change the subject or shift the blame, it's a trick and it's pathetic.
- 8note 1y ago
  whats actually going on with the mayoral race? is cuomo running as an independent against mamdani?
  - nobody9999 1y ago
    https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2025/09/10/mamdani-holds-double-digit-lead-over-cuomo-in-emerson-poll https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2025/09/10/mamdani-hol...
- rgblambda 1y ago
  Mossad have actually warned the Netanyahu government of this, saying U.S support for Israel is slipping away and now might be the best time to implement a two state solution, while it can still be as one sided as possible in favour of Israel. Netanyahu has chosen to ignore this.
  - tiahura 1y ago
    [flagged]
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  And my mom's hippie generation loved the PLO and Arafat, and my generation supported Israel. Israel existed through it all.
- tdeck 1y ago
  For those who don't know, Cuomo volunteered last year (apropos of nothing, he doesn't have relevant experience) to defend Netanyahu in the ICC. So any "change of mind" he might be expressing now is a little bit... Suspect. https://nypost.com/2024/11/25/us-news/andrew-cuomo-joins-high-powered-legal-team-to-defend-netanyahu-against-icc/ https://nypost.com/2024/11/25/us-news/andrew-cuomo-joins-hig...
- corimaith 1y ago
  The thing about the progressive younger generation is that their voting choices have made things progressively worse for themselves in the last 15 years. It's hard to say that the underlying worldview that supplants a anti-Israel position is particularly sustainable domestically long term. To be fair, it's the same thing for foreign policy, the anti-neocons have failed just as bad. And as for the Right, it's primarily isolationism, but they certainly aren't going to favoring Palestine over Israel anytime. That's already hedged in. At the end of day, it largely goes against of the interests of every actor not aligned with Iran or seeking stability to let Israel fall in favour of Palestine. We do need that hard power when America is retreating from the region.
- seivan 1y ago
  [dead]
dlubarov 1y ago
Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip and resumes rocket attacks, Israel is forced to respond eventually. It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution.
- bigyabai 1y ago
  > It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution. As long as the Dahiya doctrine persists, it won't be. But that's an Israeli problem - their disproportionate response has been exploited for years. Hamas is fine letting Israel commit as many war crimes as it takes to satisfy their leadership, it very clearly hasn't changed tactics in recent years. The cost to Israeli international credibility seems to be "worth it" in their eyes. So, if Israel wants peace they first have to stop escalation. But even if Hamas was defeated, we know that wouldn't be the end of things. Next the Druze has to be defended, which would result in a very justified annexation of south Syria and repeat of the same genocidal conditions in Gaza. They would also attempt to unseat power in Yemen, and then embroil America in an unwinnable war against Iran to sustain a true hegemony.
  - actionfromafar 1y ago
    America is pissing away its hegemony all on its own.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- aucisson_masque 1y ago
  It can either end in the death of one side, most probably Palestinians, or in peace agreement. Currently there is war, peace is out of the window. First step is to stop the war, second step is to make both side actually negotiate. It was attempted by Clinton a while ago but assassinations from mossad and hamas prevented the process to success. To be honest, politicians have failed us too many times for my sad brain to believe that there will be a good outcome. Most probably Israel society will keep radicalizing itself, Palestinians will be killed and Gaza bombed/annexed leading to the death of both Palestinian and Israeli civilization. Palestinian will be all dead and Israeli will have become in all manner what they initially sought to destroy, literal nazi. I’d even bet that death by zyklon is more human that seeing your family and yourself getting slowly hungered to death. And contrary to nazi Germany, no Israeli can pretend to not know what’s going on.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
7952 1y ago
The US seems to be dominated by different right wing meme factions now. A choice between different strains of Maga all of whom would kill thousands in Gaza just to spite the left.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
burnt-resistor 1y ago
Have to ban AIPAC and all PACs first but good luck removing the hogs (elected officials) feeding at the troughs of money, gold bars, and bot army support. John McCain tried campaign finance reform but that didn't fly, and it's all been downhill since the abolition of the Tillman Act and the terrible ruling of Citizens' United.

by beloch 1y ago

flyinglizard 1y ago

[flagged]

jcranmer 1y ago

There's definitely a generational gap going in the US. Support for Israel is not popular among the younger generation in the US, and there's a good deal of voters in their 20s and 30s for whom support for Israel a red line in candidates. But older generations tend to be staunchly in favor of Israel, and too much of the gerontocratic political class thinks that pro-Israel uber alles is the key to winning votes. It is worth noting that Andrew Cuomo, in a desperate last-minute gamble to boost support in the NYC mayoral race, has come out against Israel. Considering that much of the attacks on Mamdani have focused on his support for Palestine (construing him as antisemitic), it's notable that other candidates also seem to think that being anti-Israel is actually the vote winner for moderates right now.

flyinglizard 1y ago
That gap between support of Israel across age groups existed historically AFAIK, although the margins were narrower. More worrying for Israel is that it's becoming a partisan issue. That goes to both ends - previously unthinkable, unwavering support under Republicans but a very short leash under the Democrats.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > More worrying for Israel is that it's becoming a partisan issue. A highly salient political issue becoming partisan is a good thing in a representative democracy, as that is the only thing that makes it possible for the public to influence it by general election votes.
  - throwaway3060 1y ago
    In FPTP, this often ends up backfiring. A politicized issue quickly becomes a polarized issue - the other side takes the opposite view, and both sides then race to the extremes. Compromise becomes less and less possible, because then each side sees it as a defeat. Nothing ends up done.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      Worse there is always more than one issue. Now I can't even find someone in my own party to support as the race has brought them all the same way on this. And so I either support one of them anyway for other issues or I leave.
    - dragonwriter 1y ago
      > In FPTP, this often ends up backfiring. Every possible alignment of circumstances “backfires” in FPTP because FPTP is a fundamentally bad way to elect a legislature. That’s not a problem of, e.g., salient political issues becoming partisan—representing a coherent position on salient issues is the only useful thing parties can do—it is a problem of FPTP.
sfink 1y ago
I wouldn't label this as "support for Israel"/"against Israel". One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. Many within Israel are not happy with Netanyahu's methods, and presumably they are not against Israel. I understand that that's the current shorthand, but it seems inaccurate and unnecessarily polarizing to me.
- caycep 1y ago
  This is what puzzles me - ppl keep railing about being pro or anti Israel and it's overly simplistic and also not really accurately describing things. It's more pro/anti Likud or Kahanists, or really at heart a right vs left wing divide. There's still plenty of Labor or more progressive elements of the Israeli public who are against what Netanyahu and his political allies are doing.
  - throwaway3060 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - throw310822 1y ago
    Israel was literally born out of political scheming to get assigned a portion of someone else's territory for an exclusive ethno-nationalistic state; then out of ethnically cleansing that territory. It was necessary to the project and planned in advanced. You can be for the existence of a peaceful Israel that has entirely retreated within recognised borders and made amends for its past genocidal behaviour- but it's not what the current Israel is or, sadly, can ever be. > There's still plenty of Labor or more progressive elements of the Israeli public who are against... No. Not at all.
    - klipt 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - throw310822 1y ago
        > Shouldn't similar preconditions of making amends apply to whether or not we accept the existence of those Arab states? And what if they should? Do you think it make Israel's genocide look better now? Stop trying to change the subject or shift the blame, it's a trick and it's pathetic.
8note 1y ago
whats actually going on with the mayoral race? is cuomo running as an independent against mamdani?
- nobody9999 1y ago
  https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2025/09/10/mamdani-holds-double-digit-lead-over-cuomo-in-emerson-poll https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2025/09/10/mamdani-hol...
rgblambda 1y ago
Mossad have actually warned the Netanyahu government of this, saying U.S support for Israel is slipping away and now might be the best time to implement a two state solution, while it can still be as one sided as possible in favour of Israel. Netanyahu has chosen to ignore this.
- tiahura 1y ago
  [flagged]
_DeadFred_ 1y ago
And my mom's hippie generation loved the PLO and Arafat, and my generation supported Israel. Israel existed through it all.
tdeck 1y ago
For those who don't know, Cuomo volunteered last year (apropos of nothing, he doesn't have relevant experience) to defend Netanyahu in the ICC. So any "change of mind" he might be expressing now is a little bit... Suspect. https://nypost.com/2024/11/25/us-news/andrew-cuomo-joins-high-powered-legal-team-to-defend-netanyahu-against-icc/ https://nypost.com/2024/11/25/us-news/andrew-cuomo-joins-hig...
corimaith 1y ago
The thing about the progressive younger generation is that their voting choices have made things progressively worse for themselves in the last 15 years. It's hard to say that the underlying worldview that supplants a anti-Israel position is particularly sustainable domestically long term. To be fair, it's the same thing for foreign policy, the anti-neocons have failed just as bad. And as for the Right, it's primarily isolationism, but they certainly aren't going to favoring Palestine over Israel anytime. That's already hedged in. At the end of day, it largely goes against of the interests of every actor not aligned with Iran or seeking stability to let Israel fall in favour of Palestine. We do need that hard power when America is retreating from the region.
seivan 1y ago
[dead]

dlubarov 1y ago

Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip and resumes rocket attacks, Israel is forced to respond eventually. It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution.

bigyabai 1y ago
> It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution. As long as the Dahiya doctrine persists, it won't be. But that's an Israeli problem - their disproportionate response has been exploited for years. Hamas is fine letting Israel commit as many war crimes as it takes to satisfy their leadership, it very clearly hasn't changed tactics in recent years. The cost to Israeli international credibility seems to be "worth it" in their eyes. So, if Israel wants peace they first have to stop escalation. But even if Hamas was defeated, we know that wouldn't be the end of things. Next the Druze has to be defended, which would result in a very justified annexation of south Syria and repeat of the same genocidal conditions in Gaza. They would also attempt to unseat power in Yemen, and then embroil America in an unwinnable war against Iran to sustain a true hegemony.
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  America is pissing away its hegemony all on its own.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
aucisson_masque 1y ago
It can either end in the death of one side, most probably Palestinians, or in peace agreement. Currently there is war, peace is out of the window. First step is to stop the war, second step is to make both side actually negotiate. It was attempted by Clinton a while ago but assassinations from mossad and hamas prevented the process to success. To be honest, politicians have failed us too many times for my sad brain to believe that there will be a good outcome. Most probably Israel society will keep radicalizing itself, Palestinians will be killed and Gaza bombed/annexed leading to the death of both Palestinian and Israeli civilization. Palestinian will be all dead and Israeli will have become in all manner what they initially sought to destroy, literal nazi. I’d even bet that death by zyklon is more human that seeing your family and yourself getting slowly hungered to death. And contrary to nazi Germany, no Israeli can pretend to not know what’s going on.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

7952 1y ago

The US seems to be dominated by different right wing meme factions now. A choice between different strains of Maga all of whom would kill thousands in Gaza just to spite the left.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

burnt-resistor 1y ago

Have to ban AIPAC and all PACs first but good luck removing the hogs (elected officials) feeding at the troughs of money, gold bars, and bot army support. John McCain tried campaign finance reform but that didn't fly, and it's all been downhill since the abolition of the Tillman Act and the terrible ruling of Citizens' United.