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Europol said ChatControl doesn't go far enough; they want to retain data forever
- nickslaughter02 1y agooriginal title: Europol said Chat Control doesn’t go far enough; they want to retain all data of all citizens forever [Washington Post source in comment]
- holowoodman 1y agoTypical. Give them a finger, they take an arm, a leg, your house, your firstborn and all your data. Every request by law enforcement must be opposed. Do not talk to cops. Do not give them an inch. Ever. They are insatiable and power-hungry. Nothing will suffice. A police state will still be a million police officers and some stricter laws short.
- integralid 1y ago>Every request by law enforcement must be opposed. Do not talk to cops. Do not give them an inch. Ever. What if your house get robbed? I'm quite fond of law enforcement actually, and I enjoy living in a safe country.
- holowoodman 1y agoYou might try your luck then. But law enforcement has shot the homeowners in such cases. They usually arrive late or never at all. They open a case file and then tell you "well, we are not going to do anything, theft has a very low rate of convictions, just give the case number to your insurance".
- nancyminusone 1y agoYour house being robbed represents a failure of them to protect you
- stackedinserter 1y agoIn our "safe" country law enforcement press charges on you if you oppose the robber.
- holowoodman 1y agoOf course. It is far easier to press charges against the victim, because they already have his data and confession. That's why you just avoid dealing with the police if at all possible.
- stackedinserter 1y agoIt's easier to avoid when you have a pig farm. I heard it takes 16 pigs to eat a human body in one setting.
- nehal3m 1y agoBy that point they have already failed to protect you and at most someone will be by with a clipboard. I have had motorcycles stolen from me and reporting it was met with an automated response saying there is no capacity for any follow up.
- uncircle 1y agoMy house got robbed. The police haven't found the robber, haven't dedicated a single iota of effort in pursuing the matter, nor has the merchandise being returned. Is this what you meant by police making you safer from crime?
- Zealotux 1y agoI mean, of course they would say that. Europol's job would probably be a whole lot easier if they had access to all conversations, media, live feed of webcams from all devices of all European citizens with unlimited history. Think of all the crimes they could solve if only there was absolutely no privacy for any of us!
- holowoodman 1y ago> Europol's job would probably be a whole lot easier if they had access to all Actually I think that that's even a fallacy. More data means more stuff to sift through, more false leads in there, more things to follow up. Watch an episode of House M.D. about full-body-scans in medicine: useless, because only wasted time to follow up on every blotch in the scan.
- schrectacular 1y agoNot as useless with the current generation of AI tools...
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- s1mplicissimus 1y agoI'd rather not have my doctors waste their time discarding useless LLM comments, tough
- raxxorraxor 1y agoThey should be out of their jobs anyway if they police anything beyond the very restricted fields the EU was made for.
- morkalork 1y agoSure, as long as it's a crime against a politician or rich person. For the rest of us: Hilarious! People already have their cars and bikes stolen with GPS trackers inside and can tell police exactly where their property is and get no response.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 1y ago"those services should include publicly available interpersonal communications service" Only publicly available messengers are liable. So if one writes a messenger herself (not too hard) and only distributes it to her friends, family, or a close circle of child porn lovers, one is not liable.
- rafaelmn 1y agoI feel like we should create an open source P2P chat messaging with encryption thats super easy to use so that these kind of laws become pointless. Empower criminals so that they cant use this excuse to target civilian infra.
- the_third_wave 1y agoJust run your own XMPP server in your own domain, use OMEMO for encryption and you're set. You can communicate with others on other servers, none of them 'publically available' and the TLA's can stare at all that encrypted gibberish 'till the cows come home. Even if they break into a single server they won't get access to the cleartext, for that they'll need to access the terminal devices - phones, browsers, etc. This is how I've been communicating for years now, it works fine and does not feed any of the data parasites out there.
- meindnoch 1y agoAnd what are you going to do when they write a law that requires ISPs to drop any packet that lacks a digital signature from a trusted hardware manufacturer?
- the_third_wave 1y agoWe're not there yet, by far. Should that ever happen it will be circumvented just like nearly all technological measures are.
- _zoltan_ 1y agountil there is a user friendly app like messenger or whatsapp, nobody is going to use these.
- mywacaday 1y agoI can see a valid use for a version of chat control where the communications of all elected officials are retained forever and audited on a regular basis for doing anything illegal, proposing anything illegal, actions not in the public interest, cronyism etc. All data should be released when they die, 10 years after they leave office or upon conviction of a crime related to political appointment.
- boxed 1y agoWelcome to Sweden. Public on day one.
- _zoltan_ 1y agocan you elaborate? this is news to me.
- diggan 1y agoGuess this serves as a good introduction: https://www.government.se/the-government-offices/the-government-offices-communication-activities/ https://www.government.se/the-government-offices/the-governm... > All communication in the Government Offices is based on the core values of transparency, factualness and comprehensibility, relevance and topicality. Public access and oversight shall characterise all activities. > The Government Offices' communication policy covers both internal and external communication. Sweden is generally pretty good at transparency, both regarding representatives and everyone else. For example, given a full name, you can get a person's address, telephone number, what cars and businesses they own, and even what their salary is, for better and worse :)
- raxxorraxor 1y agoEuropol shouldn't have the legitimacy of even say anything on that topic.
- jraph 1y agoDevil's advocate, but why not? I don't like Chat Control and I believe privacy should be guaranteed, but Europol seems quite relevant in this matter.
- AlecSchueler 1y agoBecause laws represent the will of the people, not the will of the police. The individuals in Europol are already offered the same representation as the rest of us and the various branches of the EU legislative bodies can always call on them for consultation on specific matters.
- jraph 1y agoThat doesn't work very well. If you have a concern you need to voice, you can't rely on waiting for being consulted. I'm really not interested in a system where you are not allowed to speak up. Police is supposedly for protecting people's interests, ideally. Naively, as a citizen I want to be protected from crime and I'm interested in Europol, experts on crime investigation across Europe, getting what they need to do their work and expressing their needs. Of course I'm also not interested in privacy being thrown away. Those two things apparently clash, and a healthy debate can help find an acceptable solution.
- AlecSchueler 1y agoI actually largely agree with you but > Police is supposedly for protecting people's interests, ideally. Police is supposedly for enforcing the law regardless of whose interests that serve. Making that enforcement easier isn't always a net positive for society, even when the laws themselves are just.
- r_lee 1y agoI love the EUSSR
- robotomir 1y agoDo you think that monitoring and surveillance are less of a problem in the US? In China?
- jraph 1y agoCome on, we don't need to race to the bottom :-) (Note, I'm not vouching for the comment you replied to - EU is not even close/comparable to what peak USSR was)
- stackedinserter 1y agoThere's still more freedom (like, real, everyday freedom, not just abstract "rights") in US than in EU.
- Havoc 1y agoSurveillance state would no doubt make their lives easier but that doesn’t make it a good idea
- rurban 1y agoSo those Europol managers need to get their citizenships revoked, if they choose to stand outside the constitution. And observed. Simple as that.
- preezer 1y agoYou bet I would find a way or service, where I could upload daily at least 100 GB of data just to troll them.
- create-username 1y agoYou’ve already got Facebook
- fsflover 1y agoPlease consider supporting https://edri.org https://edri.org to fight this.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- wkat4242 1y agoPatrick Breyer has an article how American foundation Thorn is heavily lobbying Europol for this stuff. And there's some cross hiring going on according to him. Clearly it's not even just "for the children" anymore. Just plain old panopticon surveillance. I guess they want their NSA too. Though they forget that NSA is only for terrorism purposes, their data is not too be used for regular policing. https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chat-control-eu-ombudsman-launches-investigation-into-europol/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/chat-control-eu-ombudsman-l...
- philipwhiuk 1y agoTerrorism is basically "whatever the government at the time doesn't like" anyway
- PaulRobinson 1y agoNo, terrorism "is the use or threat of serious violence, damage to property, or disruption of [...] systems to advance a political, religious, racial, or ideological cause, with the aim of influencing a government or international organization, or of intimidating the public." "Whatever the government at the time doesn't like", is best described as "opposition". It's a healthy and critical component of a free and fair democracy. One that is increasingly silenced in the modern World, much to our shame when future generations judge us. While I understand the point behind old line "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", the key point is that both terrorism and "freedom fighting" are about resorting to the use of violence, and the democracy involved (if it was ever present), has failed when people resort to such violence. I say this as a man who unfortunately has suffered the fear, paranoia and threat of the Provisional IRA, ISIS-attributed cells, and the hard-right provoking riots in the cities and towns I've lived in from an early age. And that is the point of terrorism - it is meant to induce fear and paranoia and a sense of threat that makes us all want to do anything to make it go away, including surrendering our fundamental rights and rubber-stamping legislation that gives agencies the right to erase our privacy - and by extension our freedom - that raises the question of what's truly worse?
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- diggan 1y agoReally sensationalized title, the source is "an unnamed Europol police official" so it basically boils down to personal opinion, not the official stance of Europol as a whole. Although I'm sure they aren't alone, sensationalizing really doesn't help to have a sensible discussion about it...
- Saline9515 1y agoFrom experience, in those high-level meetings if an official says such bold statements, it represents the position of the institution they are representing. It's not just a mere opinion given at the water cooler after lunch.
- amarcheschi 1y agoI think that the source article is https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/29/europol-sought-unlimited-data-access-in-online-child-sexual-abuse-regulation/ https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/29/europol-sought-unlimite... And the name was known but redacted before releasing the information to the journalists The meeting in which it was said involved the europol executive director at the time
- ruszki 1y agoIt doesn't help. Unfortunately, we either get used to this, or just start to ignore public spaces more and more. Sensible discussion was probably always the exception, but at least it was easier to find pockets of sanity 10 years ago. Misinformation, disinformation, and other reality distortion effects basically made finding those almost impossible. It's steadily getting worse since at least 2014. One of my favorite random topic discussion places was /r/hungary, my country of origin's subreddit. In 2015, at the height of immigration "crisis", we had very good discussions about the whole topic, even when most Hungarians were, and are clearly racists, and we had very differing views. We discussed pros and cons, we pushed statistics here and there. And we weren't assholes with each others. Even when we were at different places on the political spectrum. And generally every topic could be discussed, without real retorsion. In 2018, the number of people who has only faith and nothing else increased. That was the first time when, it started to bug me. In 2020, the number of fake information about COVID, was already about 50-50 with real information. Simple facts which were against their faith were tolerated rarely. For some reason, I still thought that it's just an ephemeral thing, because they're afraid. I was wrong. Oh god, I was very-very wrong. For most people, this was the trigger to go into full unsubstantiated conspiracy theory field. In 2022, the sub clearly started to be controlled by political parties. There were several obviously paid accounts by several parties. Nowadays, it's fully controlled by a political party. Dissenting views are barely tolerated. And basically all views are based on faith, and faith alone. There is no - not just sensible, but simply - discussions anymore. Whoever wants to discuss Hungarian affairs sensibly, long left that place. I've seen the same thing regarding my friends, and people who I followed on Twitter. Most of us just left public spaces all together. We don't follow news anymore that closely either. And who do, slowly go into a very dark place. One of my friends started with "classical liberalism". Nowadays, outspoken Nazi. One other was afraid of COVID, and started to share bullshit D-Vitamin spam blog posts. Nowadays, he's full blown antivax. Another, was deep into depression, after the amount of alt-right bullshit he consumed. Luckily, he got out from there, but there were times when I thought that I lost him. My mom doesn't know what's happening in the country where she lives. My dad knows, follows the news, and he's halfway into depression for the past years. And there are those people who I followed on Twitter, because they argued sensibly. They are either not there anymore, or slowly their fact based opinions were replaced by faith. They maybe still on the "right" "side", but it's more rarely a conscious decision. It's only a matter of time before they will slip, and even now sensible discussions are impossible with them. I don't know what good solutions there are. I hate that I'm turning more, and more inwards, creating a bubble again, after I forcefully cut it open completely about 15 years ago. But unfortunately, it's worth less and less to read random people's opinion... or at least what many try to sell as opinion.
- belter 1y agoThe Europol is a EU support body, and not a federal police. They can't by law apply coercive measures, and its staff cannot execute investigative measures. It can only assist national police, can request, but not compel and may ask Member States to open investigations but the Capitals can say no. It's nothing more one of the examples of EU bureaucrats trying to justify their inflated EU salaries. It is mostly coordination paperwork that inflates Brussels chaos without direct crime fighting effectiveness. Should be closed as each country police already cooperates as needed. They are nothing more than a support only EU agency requesting bigger scopes to justify their existence.
- WaitWaitWha 1y ago> They can't by law apply coercive measures, and its staff cannot execute investigative measures. They can't by law apply coercive measures today, and its staff cannot execute investigative measures today. There are ample evidence of EU expanding authority beyond the original charter, from common market project into a political union with broad competences.
- Jensson 1y ago> There are ample evidence of EU expanding authority beyond the original charter, from common market project into a political union with broad competences. Right, EU will probably look like USA after 100-200 years, but it takes time to get there, and likely will take a civil war where they decide that member states are not allowed to leave the union like what happened in USA.
- nickslaughter02 1y ago> The Europol is a EU support body, and not a federal police. This is supposed to change with the ProtectEU plan. Europol would become an FBI equivalent.
- croes 1y agoDoes this include the chats of Ursula von der Leyen?
- nehal3m 1y agoIt explicitly does not, politicians are exempt.
- marginalia_nu 1y agoWith the DDR and Stasi archives in living memory, who can think this is a good direction to head in?
- AlecSchueler 1y agoThe people who ensure the MI5 and other archives remain hidden.
- 46891283682 1y agoFor example the Stasi spy Anetta Kahane leading the political foundation of the Greens, which also established a state-run "reporting office for anti-feminism", whose declared goal is to persecute people for being critical of feminism.
- ExoticPearTree 1y agoIdeologues. They think they can do it better and no corruption will occur. Because they know better.
- AlecSchueler 1y agoDid they say that? We've got a Reddit post showing a screenshot of a quotation from an anonymous person during an unnamed meeting, but not much else to go on here.
- amarcheschi 1y agoThe meeting wasn't unnamed, it is referring to this one https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the-eus-fight-over-scanning-for-child-sex-content/ https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the...
- amarcheschi 1y agoI think the original article is this one: https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/29/europol-sought-unlimited-data-access-in-online-child-sexual-abuse-regulation/ https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/29/europol-sought-unlimite... They have another interesting article: https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the-eus-fight-over-scanning-for-child-sex-content/ https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the... Follow the money also has a few articles about... Well, money and thorn and eu csam regulation
- cynicalsecurity 1y agoAs if Stasi hasn't taught people anything.
- 46891283682 1y agoOh, it taught them plenty. Too bad the socialists are still in power.
- crimsoneer 1y agoSome random anonymous Europol official said something off-the-cuff to a random Bloomberg journalist. Europol has not said anything at all.
- TheChaplain 1y agoKind of funny that years ago I was insulted and talked down to when I said that EU going from trade union to federalisation is a bad idea. Chat Control and whatever is following from that is just the beginning.
- nickslaughter02 1y ago100%. Each country must regain the ability to decide for themselves and not be forced into something just because foreign lunatics have more votes or larger population.
- poisonborz 1y agoOf course they do, it's their job to say so. And the job of politicians with any integrity is to say "No, next topic".
- spwa4 1y agoMakes you wonder to what extent are things like Europol behind app store and sideloading policies, doesn't it? And then you compare this. Let's say you do get scammed into transferring money. Can Europol, or any police department, help you? No ... Think of the children!
- ChrisArchitect 1y agoThe source from (2024): https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/03/05/encryption-eu-human-rights-privacy-ruling/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/03/05/encrypt... (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39609846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39609846) Can start a discussion here without reddit threads of random article screenshots.
- general1465 1y agoThat is going against GDPR + who is going to pay for that? Slack is already limiting what you can retain on free account.
- marjancek 1y agoThis is a very neat site someone shared with me: https://fightchatcontrol.eu/ https://fightchatcontrol.eu/ I liked it that it explains what Chat Control is, what is the current position of different countries and politicians, and suggests ways to contact your representatives to explain why you have one position or the other.