10 ms·

Unfortunately, the ICEBlock app is activism theater

137 points by _p2zi 1y ago

roxolotl 1y ago
This is one of those articles about activism that to me just reads as gatekeeping. The creator of the app clearly isn’t a bastion of knowledge about this stuff but he’s taking on incredible personal risk to try and do something. While it might just be theater, I don’t disagree about that, theater is still great at getting the word out and building a movement.
- netsharc 1y ago
  Why is being clueless, refusing help, and taking risks admirable... It's theater that a lot of people think is real, potentially endangering them if they rely on the app. Heh, makes me think of "Full Self Driving"...
- 103e 1y ago
  Playing on the rail tracks also incurs incredible personal risk -- doesn't make it wise. Seems fair to me for the author to give their opinion that they don't believe this to be an effective form of protest. Especially given that they list their specific concerns.
- rossy 1y ago
  If the creator of this app doesn't know their stuff, they're putting other people at risk.
- ageitgey 1y ago
  Progressive politics has a natural 'kitchen sink' risk. A group proposes to build simple, affordable housing and funds it. Then another group comes along and says that people with affordable housing deserve energy-efficient, low-cost-to-run homes, so the plans get upgraded with better windows and walls, and the cost doubles. Then another group comes along and says that affordable housing should be green with solar panels and battery power. And another group says that all affordable housing should be fully accessible, so the size of all doorways is upgraded. And another group says that affordable housing should be ecologically beneficial, so now the housing requires a green roof and rainwater collection. And so on, until the cost is 5x the original cost and the project never gets built, and a bunch of time is wasted. This is the risk. Each group along the way had noble motives, but by trying to solve every problem at once, nothing gets done and no one gets helped. By contrast, politics that are instead centered on tearing down systems and rules don't have this, because any random action is a step towards the goal. I feel like this is happening here to a degree. Instead of producing a functional alternative, this well-intentioned person is picking apart all the problems with the current approach. They may be 100% "correct" in their assessments, but politically, they are letting the air out of their own balloon.
  - homeonthemtn 1y ago
    I would argue that they just don't have the ability to say no to each other. If you say no, you're immediately judged and "other'd" by your own allies. It's not a healthy ecosystem of thought.
  - crooked-v 1y ago
    There's also the groups that, as can be seen in the realm of California housing, will use any and all kitchen sink tactics to intentionally delay change while acting 'progressive', even if what they're actually fighting for is exactly the opposite of what it was yesterday.
  - foobarian 1y ago
    I recently saw this called a "purity spiral." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral
  - oefrha 1y ago
    > Instead of producing a functional alternative Author clearly points to a (more) functional alternative—their local group with volunteers verifying all the reports (with 90%+ false positive rates, even before malicious interference, which is strong evidence that this app is probably worse than useless for anyone taking it seriously; after all, the potential number of real reports is bounded by rare events, while the potential number of malicious fake reports is effectively unbounded). Author and others also offered to help through collaboration with existing groups or through open source audits and code contributions, both of which were promptly refused. Sure, author didn’t offer a functional alternative in the form of a P2P free-for-all app. Probably because that’s a not viable strategy if you actually want to help.
  - elsjaako 1y ago
    Sure, but there's also a minimum quality required before the product is safe to use. If I make gas masks, they can be useful even if they aren't resistant to every single chemical out there. But if they are really bad, they may encourage users to take risks without providing adequate protection. From what I've seen, taking action against ICE can be a risky activity and many people will want to protect their privacy while doing it. This app promises to protect privacy. However, if the Joshua (author of the app) fails to protect privacy (e.g. hosts on an insecure server that someone from ICE can get into, or becomes subject to a warrant with gag order) the app may do harm. I'm not saying the app is harmful right now, but there are definitely signs that it could become that. If Micah spots issues in that area, and the Joshua fails to respond to criticism, I think it's completely right for Micah to publish their concerns. Obviously in a polite, constructive way and while specifically pointing out that they believe the app author means no harm. The way I read Micah's article it seems fine.
- elsjaako 1y ago
  The app makes specific promises ("the app ensures user privacy by storing no personal data, making it impossible to trace reports back to individual users") while the Hope talk shows that the writer of the app is not familiar with very common techniques that are required to keep these promises. Warranty canaries, reverse engineering, and security though obscurity are all concepts that anyone making legally sensitive secure software should be familiar with. To make an analogy, if someone wants to start a taxi service and you say they're not qualified because they don't know about different types of tires and how to change the front lights, that would be gatekeeping. If they don't know you should sometimes change tires and turn the lights on when it's dark you should have doubts about their ability to safely run a taxi service. You could argue that he doesn't need open source and a warranty canary, but from what Micah says, it sounds like the app author doesn't have the required knowledge to evaluate the option.
- chillingeffect 1y ago
  Definitely. The app is not perfect, sure. Lots of people and journalists are smarter and "could" do it better...but they haven't. Often the best work comes out theough competition and revisions. Google didnt sit back and write sniveling blog posts abt how lame altavista was.
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  It's not every day someone sacrifices their own time and resources to provide material assistance to people breaking the law. Are we looking forward to a future where apps appear for other sorts of illegal activity like drug dealing, human trafficking, prostitution, gang wars? Just think of all the societal progress we are potentially missing out on if only more people would think of those who flaunt the laws that a nation has democratically decided upon.
lupusreal 1y ago
Damn, that sucks. If it ever came to android I was going to use it to silence the weekend lawnmowers and leaf blowers in my neighborhood. Boomers got too old to do it themselves but still insist on having every Saturday filled with machine noise.
- MonkeyClub 1y ago
  Is ICEing the new SWATing now?
  - flanked-evergl 1y ago
    Based.
- x187463 1y ago
  You were going to falsely report ICE sightings to scare undocumented workers away from their jobsite? How is creating increased anxiety and taking money away from laborers not an obvious moral failure? And to do so, not because there are mythical hard-working Americans in line to do the work, but because the completely normal suburban noise of yard work on a weekend is bothersome to you. That's a wild statement.
  - notmyjob 1y ago
    “the completely normal suburban noise of yard work on a weekend” Not interested in taking sides on any of this other than to point out that blower noise early in the morning has been made illegal in many places because too many people made the incorrect assumption that such noise was “completely normal.” To some, it’s “completely normal” to beat your wife. That doesn’t make it ok.
  - flanked-evergl 1y ago
    If illegal aliens don't want to have the anxiety of being arrested and deported by ICE they can always leave. But I guess everyone is equally concerned about the anxiety that AML regulations cause people who want to defraud the American government of taxes.
pityJuke 1y ago
Was already sceptical of the app after GrapheneOS rang the alarm [0]. [0]: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114789276549546469 https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114789276549546469
kouteiheika 1y ago
As a non-American this is something I don't understand, so maybe someone with more context can explain. Why is this app even needed/desired? As far as I can see there are two possibilities here: 1) ICE is abusing their power and illegally detaining and deporting people who shouldn't be deported, or 2) ICE is deporting illegal immigrants which don't have permission to be in the country so they shouldn't be in the country. In case of (1) can't they be taken to court? In case of (2) aren't immigration laws there for a reason, and surely we don't want to normalize selective application of law like in so many corrupt countries around the world? Isn't the rule of law a thing in the US?
- SomeoneOnTheWeb 1y ago
  It's (1) but ICE is making their job to intimidate people so they don't face consequences.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  You're missing the point courts are useless with current administration, for all practical purposes they are turning into a authoritarian regime, and many still think there is going to exist some magical elections to turn this around. I see all the signs of Portuguese dictorship that ended in 1974, and I as first generation being raised in freedom got to hear and learn plenty of stories on how everything used to be. Sadly also back home people have forgotten what it meant to live under authoritarian regime.
- thinkharderdev 1y ago
  > (1) can't they be taken to court? Yes, they can be and are being but it's not much comfort to know that the courts will decide a deportation was unlawful after you've already spent 6 months being tortured in an El Salvadoran prison.
  - fuckyah 1y ago
    [dead]
- moduspol 1y ago
  It’s #2, and the status quo for quite some time is that immigration laws were just not enforced, or administratively bypassed. That’s why there’s a lot of pushback.
pelagicAustral 1y ago
I fail to understand how this app could help anybody... beyond the false-positive issue, how is this not a tool that no matter how it's used it will cause more chaos on any possible situation. Nearly on every case scenario this will be more likely to get people in danger.
- diggan 1y ago
  > I fail to understand how this app could help anybody If I was law enforcement, didn't like people reporting on my activities, and I saw Apple's boss getting cozy with my boss, I'd be eager to start getting help knowing exactly who is reporting me. And considering how the app works (using Apple's servers, with identifiable information), I'm pretty sure people using this app is helping someone, maybe not the ones we should be cheering on though.
  - pelagicAustral 1y ago
    Ah damn! I was missing that use-case... Yeah, you're right, some is getting their fix from this.
- chillingeffect 1y ago
  Is there any chance you and your family are perfectly safe right now, under no threat of violence, and have no need for an app like this?
- gruez 1y ago
  Presumably they want something like waze, which is an app that (among other things) allows you to report speed traps and (presumably) avoid them.
aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
mothballed 1y ago
ICE would be perfectly happy Tiananmen Squaring 300 million people if they could just deport a single permanent resident with a meek opinion on Palestinian genocide. Good luck stopping that with an app.
- antiloper 1y ago
  GPT-2?
- SapporoChris 1y ago
  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meak https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meak
  - mothballed 1y ago
    Thanks, edited
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  Cite?
mikevm 1y ago
[flagged]
- Quarrelsome 1y ago
  ICE's current operational parameters don't seem to respect the constitutional rights of people. So idk if calling them "patriots" is appropriate.
  - flanked-evergl 1y ago
    ICE's current operational parameters does seem to respect the constitutional rights of people. So IMO calling them "patriots" is appropriate.
    - justinrubek 1y ago
      It's always alarming to see comments like this. I knew there were lots of you that hated the constitution, but that the disconnect is this far is hard to recognize.
      - flanked-evergl 1y ago
        Claiming that something "seems" so does not make it so. So far, I believe there has been 0 deportations of people who are citizens or held valid visas or green cards. I know it's seriously upsetting to some that laws are enforced, but that does not make it unconstitutional to do so.
        Quarrelsome 1y ago
        So the rights of the constitution should only apply to citizens? I thought Thomas Paine wrote the book "The Rights of Man", not "The Rights of American Citizens". How does one misjudge the intent of the founding fathers so? The intent was to create a world free from the tyranny of the European ruling classes, where people had inherent rights, but some people just toss that away without regard.
homeonthemtn 1y ago
Nearly all US activism is ineffective theatre. It's theatre by people who don't understand how their own government works, nor cares to learn. So they look for shortcuts with ineffective protest theatre so they can pat themselves on the shoulder for "doing something about it" Meanwhile their government continues rightward unimpeded.
- lern_too_spel 1y ago
  People voted for segregation and ICE deportations. The point of protest theater like sit-ins and ICE protests is to make people confront what they voted for instead of being blissfully unaware of the harms. We live in a democracy, so the most effective way to reverse something that people voted for is by education, and voters will not seek out that education themselves. Often, it is the people who don't understand protest who understand the least about government. Many have the idea that if a democratically elected government does something they don't like, violently overthrowing the government will solve the problem. If the next government is a democracy, the same people will vote for the same policies.
  - JeremyNT 1y ago
    I suppose the problem with it is that such "protest theater" could only work if the people who support the regime are capable of empathy for those who are objecting. In this case the opposite is true - this administration won on an explicit platform of retribution against political enemies of the right and an erosion of the constitutional order. Which is to say... they're getting what they wanted. Presumably every reminder that they're causing distress amongst people they are targeting will only increase their satisfaction.
    - lern_too_spel 1y ago
      I don't believe that more than 50% of voters are die hard racists. You just need to draw the attention of the portion of Trump voters who aren't.
  - mathiaspoint 1y ago
faku812 1y ago
[flagged]
honeybadger1 1y ago
I'm not a fan of the skirting of due process from the administration, but I also do not believe in obstructing them or outing officers to the end of hurting them in the personal and professional lives. There is lack of acknowledgement of reality from left leaning people that one of Trumps big campaign items was getting rid of illegal aliens and he won on this, it must be acknowledged or you are part of the problem. My first point and last point can co-exist and did largely under the Obama administration(which held the deportation record prior to Trump). But what really intrigues me is why are they doing this in such a fast tracked way. All I can figure is they think a Democrat may win in the next election, and they don't want these people held up in courts so it can be reversed, they want them purged.
- faku812 1y ago
  The champions of democracy are suddenly worried about a democratically elected president enacting the will of the people who elected him. Truth is stranger than fiction.
  - honeybadger1 1y ago
    I didn't vote for Trump, but I can completely understand the desire to be rid' of illegal immigrants that do not respect our laws and not looking to get right with the system. Where I am originally from it was basically 8/10 drug related crime arrests was someone that had illegal status and it was such an issue the police force would essentially pull anyone over that even looked Mexican, straight up racial profiling. This is a problem of our own creation and we have ignored it for 2 generations by letting immigration law go unenforced and while also not improving the path to citizenship for those who are law abiding and want to be a proper citizen or legal resident. Immigration is the primary wedge issue to drive people apart like abortion has been, but now it doesn't have the same luster because it's no longer a federal issue, but a state one.
wheelerwj 1y ago
This is a disingenuous article that makes the author sound both pompous and jealous of iceblock’s success. Each fact presented proves that this is not activism theater, and that the author is the one play-acting. This original creator is absolutely in over his head and now finds himself in a tough spot. Any help he is offered could be just as malicious as the false reporting and fake reviews. If the author actually gives a shit, they should try and educate the creator. Or maybe just focus on building an android app?
throwing-up 1y ago
Some difficult questions for sympathizers of illegal immigrants. 1) Why is this app allowed on the App Store? It’s helping illegal activity within the borders of a sovereign nation. 2) Nations are allowed to determine who comes and doesn’t to their countries as per their right to rule as a sovereign nation and their national security interests. Nobody vetted the 11-13 million people who poured over the border. It’s impossible to imagine that democratic institutions will not change their behavior if you get an influx of 11-13 million people, who then have children who become citizens. I mean that votes are just a counting game. So if you get more voters who are anti-abortion but previously you were all pro-choice, then that changes culture. So why shouldn’t countries get to decide who comes and goes? 3) Why shouldn’t countries have their own culture? Or not want to be multicultural? If there are laws that prevent racism or discrimination against different religions, then that’s not multiculturalism, just civility. Why is assimilation unacceptable for someone who moves in? 4) If you want to talk about the injustices of colonialism, then note that a) there are many countries that overcame those barriers despite similar histories to the country of origin of these illegal immigrants. Look at India, for instance. And b) not all illegal immigrants are more poor countries, but from thriving economies like China, India, Mexico or Brazil. Why is it justified that thriving or different economies should offload people who struggle in their own countries to other countries? How is that responsible governance? Countries should be responsible for their own poor people. 5) Many Latin American nations were already developmentally different, or delayed from another perspective, when colonialists landed on their shores. It’s clear there are cultural differences which produce incompatibility in how people want to live or govern. Ideally, nations whose people were subjected to racism or colonialism would use Japan or Brazil as models for national growth and development. Why should people be forced to live together if they don’t want the same things?
- nomdep 1y ago
  [flagged]
- Quarrelsome 1y ago
  1) because ICE deportations are often performed illegally, are given target numbers to hit (i.e. the volume matters more than the correctness) and run by an administration that doesn't respect the courts. 2) not sure this is a question. People are predominantly upset because of ICE's methods, which are often aggressive and brutal (imprison first ask questions weeks or months later). 3) not sure this is a question either. My parents have no idea how to play super mario, so culture changes quite a lot internally within seemingly culturally homogenous communities. 4) who gives a shit about colonialism. Its just ironic when yanks talk about "muh America" when their entire culture is one of being immigrants. I believe that's the reason people bring it up. 5) People are already "forced" to live together wanting different things. Every US election is like 50/50. So idk how these questions are difficult. Also ICE go after legal migrants too, so this ain't just about "illegals". The irish guy who fucked his foot up and couldn't take his flight home went through every piece of due process possible and still got shit-canned. ICE are monstrous and oppressive.
flanked-evergl 1y ago
[flagged]
Fnoord 1y ago
Interesting, in the first video Joshua mentions at 4m30s the user needs to have serious willpower to report every 5 min (ie. he feels the app is protection against a Sybil attack). I don't think this is the case. All you need is the following: 1) iOS VM (Corellium?). 2) Desktop automation on your host OS (e.g. AutoHotKey). 3) Spoof GPS with random USA-specific or carefully curated GPS coords (targeting neighborhoods they don't like?). This can be done with a SDR or a local application (which I know exist for Android but I am not sure for iOS; it'd depend on VM?). A determined adversary would have multiple of these setups. It'd require a little bit of tech know-how, but as you can see it isn't rocket science, and an adversary with a lot of money to burn would just hire someone to do this. All in all, this application is not safe against a hostile US government, but a random low IQ MAGA idiot who is determined would even do this manually, in mom's basement indeed. You can even set an alarm every 5 min. And remember, from [1]. The brownshirts were in numbers, and identifiable (at least after 1926 [2]). [1] ICE Is Nothing Like the Brownshirts, Because the Brownshirts Actually Identified Themselves https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/ice-is-nothing-like-the-brownshirts-because-the-brownshirts-actually-identified-themselves https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/ice-is-nothing-like-the-... [2] https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Uniforms_and_insignia_of_the_Sturmabteilung#Early_SA_rank_insignia_(1924-1929) https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Uniforms_and_insign...
- gruez 1y ago
  >1) iOS VM (Corellium?). A VM can't spoof on-device attestation. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicecheck/establishing-your-app-s-integrity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicecheck/establ... It's still possible to do do Sybil attacks, but you need real devices, not VMs.
Fnoord 1y ago
In Belgium, you're not allowed to say you see traffic cameras on the highway. Result: people replace the word with something else: falling stars. So in Belgium on the radio they announce falling stars on highway E19 north of Antwerp. Everyone knows the meaning. In Germany, you must only give a positive review as reference for a job application. Result: scale changes: 'performed' (worst), 'performed well' (OK) 'performed extremely well' (satisfied) -- with various levels of exaggeration. Everyone knows the meaning. In both of these situations an authority who is known (radio host, employer) are a filter of information and purposefully use the wrong terminology to address the issue in a truthful manner. The problem is that curation costs resources (time/money/energy) which you may or may not have scarcity of. I'd say multiple reports of same location warrants a usable sign, but Micah Lee's experience says otherwise: still usually false positives due to people panicking and not analyzing the situation correctly.
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  Some great tips on how to engage in illegal activity without facing accountability under democratically made laws. I hear in South Africa, the taxis started a war against the government when the government wanted them to pay toll fees on the roads, and I hear some criminals avoid paying taxes by hiding their assets. So many great ways to flaunt a society's laws.
prinzmaus 1y ago
What is the antidote for activism theater? As a motivated-to-contribute American, where do we find the resources for us to help out in a way that is meaningful?
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  You need to join an organization that is doing more than activism theater. This is surprisingly hard to do. For one thing, because of COINTELPRO infiltrating leftist groups, there have been a couple generations of activists who have never known anything other than activism theater. For another, our hyperindividualized society tends to disincentivize collective action. It's probably easier to find an organization doing good work in one area than one looking at the whole picture, so if there's an issue you particularly care about, you should probably compare the leading organizations focusing on that issue.

137 points by _p2zi 1y ago

This is one of those articles about activism that to me just reads as gatekeeping. The creator of the app clearly isn’t a bastion of knowledge about this stuff but he’s taking on incredible personal risk to try and do something. While it might just be theater, I don’t disagree about that, theater is still great at getting the word out and building a movement.

netsharc 1y ago
Why is being clueless, refusing help, and taking risks admirable... It's theater that a lot of people think is real, potentially endangering them if they rely on the app. Heh, makes me think of "Full Self Driving"...
103e 1y ago
Playing on the rail tracks also incurs incredible personal risk -- doesn't make it wise. Seems fair to me for the author to give their opinion that they don't believe this to be an effective form of protest. Especially given that they list their specific concerns.
rossy 1y ago
If the creator of this app doesn't know their stuff, they're putting other people at risk.
ageitgey 1y ago
Progressive politics has a natural 'kitchen sink' risk. A group proposes to build simple, affordable housing and funds it. Then another group comes along and says that people with affordable housing deserve energy-efficient, low-cost-to-run homes, so the plans get upgraded with better windows and walls, and the cost doubles. Then another group comes along and says that affordable housing should be green with solar panels and battery power. And another group says that all affordable housing should be fully accessible, so the size of all doorways is upgraded. And another group says that affordable housing should be ecologically beneficial, so now the housing requires a green roof and rainwater collection. And so on, until the cost is 5x the original cost and the project never gets built, and a bunch of time is wasted. This is the risk. Each group along the way had noble motives, but by trying to solve every problem at once, nothing gets done and no one gets helped. By contrast, politics that are instead centered on tearing down systems and rules don't have this, because any random action is a step towards the goal. I feel like this is happening here to a degree. Instead of producing a functional alternative, this well-intentioned person is picking apart all the problems with the current approach. They may be 100% "correct" in their assessments, but politically, they are letting the air out of their own balloon.
- homeonthemtn 1y ago
  I would argue that they just don't have the ability to say no to each other. If you say no, you're immediately judged and "other'd" by your own allies. It's not a healthy ecosystem of thought.
- crooked-v 1y ago
  There's also the groups that, as can be seen in the realm of California housing, will use any and all kitchen sink tactics to intentionally delay change while acting 'progressive', even if what they're actually fighting for is exactly the opposite of what it was yesterday.
- foobarian 1y ago
  I recently saw this called a "purity spiral." [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral
- oefrha 1y ago
  > Instead of producing a functional alternative Author clearly points to a (more) functional alternative—their local group with volunteers verifying all the reports (with 90%+ false positive rates, even before malicious interference, which is strong evidence that this app is probably worse than useless for anyone taking it seriously; after all, the potential number of real reports is bounded by rare events, while the potential number of malicious fake reports is effectively unbounded). Author and others also offered to help through collaboration with existing groups or through open source audits and code contributions, both of which were promptly refused. Sure, author didn’t offer a functional alternative in the form of a P2P free-for-all app. Probably because that’s a not viable strategy if you actually want to help.
- elsjaako 1y ago
  Sure, but there's also a minimum quality required before the product is safe to use. If I make gas masks, they can be useful even if they aren't resistant to every single chemical out there. But if they are really bad, they may encourage users to take risks without providing adequate protection. From what I've seen, taking action against ICE can be a risky activity and many people will want to protect their privacy while doing it. This app promises to protect privacy. However, if the Joshua (author of the app) fails to protect privacy (e.g. hosts on an insecure server that someone from ICE can get into, or becomes subject to a warrant with gag order) the app may do harm. I'm not saying the app is harmful right now, but there are definitely signs that it could become that. If Micah spots issues in that area, and the Joshua fails to respond to criticism, I think it's completely right for Micah to publish their concerns. Obviously in a polite, constructive way and while specifically pointing out that they believe the app author means no harm. The way I read Micah's article it seems fine.
elsjaako 1y ago
The app makes specific promises ("the app ensures user privacy by storing no personal data, making it impossible to trace reports back to individual users") while the Hope talk shows that the writer of the app is not familiar with very common techniques that are required to keep these promises. Warranty canaries, reverse engineering, and security though obscurity are all concepts that anyone making legally sensitive secure software should be familiar with. To make an analogy, if someone wants to start a taxi service and you say they're not qualified because they don't know about different types of tires and how to change the front lights, that would be gatekeeping. If they don't know you should sometimes change tires and turn the lights on when it's dark you should have doubts about their ability to safely run a taxi service. You could argue that he doesn't need open source and a warranty canary, but from what Micah says, it sounds like the app author doesn't have the required knowledge to evaluate the option.
chillingeffect 1y ago
Definitely. The app is not perfect, sure. Lots of people and journalists are smarter and "could" do it better...but they haven't. Often the best work comes out theough competition and revisions. Google didnt sit back and write sniveling blog posts abt how lame altavista was.
flanked-evergl 1y ago
It's not every day someone sacrifices their own time and resources to provide material assistance to people breaking the law. Are we looking forward to a future where apps appear for other sorts of illegal activity like drug dealing, human trafficking, prostitution, gang wars? Just think of all the societal progress we are potentially missing out on if only more people would think of those who flaunt the laws that a nation has democratically decided upon.

lupusreal 1y ago

Damn, that sucks. If it ever came to android I was going to use it to silence the weekend lawnmowers and leaf blowers in my neighborhood. Boomers got too old to do it themselves but still insist on having every Saturday filled with machine noise.

MonkeyClub 1y ago
Is ICEing the new SWATing now?
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  Based.
x187463 1y ago
You were going to falsely report ICE sightings to scare undocumented workers away from their jobsite? How is creating increased anxiety and taking money away from laborers not an obvious moral failure? And to do so, not because there are mythical hard-working Americans in line to do the work, but because the completely normal suburban noise of yard work on a weekend is bothersome to you. That's a wild statement.
- notmyjob 1y ago
  “the completely normal suburban noise of yard work on a weekend” Not interested in taking sides on any of this other than to point out that blower noise early in the morning has been made illegal in many places because too many people made the incorrect assumption that such noise was “completely normal.” To some, it’s “completely normal” to beat your wife. That doesn’t make it ok.
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  If illegal aliens don't want to have the anxiety of being arrested and deported by ICE they can always leave. But I guess everyone is equally concerned about the anxiety that AML regulations cause people who want to defraud the American government of taxes.

pityJuke 1y ago

Was already sceptical of the app after GrapheneOS rang the alarm [0]. [0]: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114789276549546469 https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114789276549546469

kouteiheika 1y ago

As a non-American this is something I don't understand, so maybe someone with more context can explain. Why is this app even needed/desired? As far as I can see there are two possibilities here: 1) ICE is abusing their power and illegally detaining and deporting people who shouldn't be deported, or 2) ICE is deporting illegal immigrants which don't have permission to be in the country so they shouldn't be in the country. In case of (1) can't they be taken to court? In case of (2) aren't immigration laws there for a reason, and surely we don't want to normalize selective application of law like in so many corrupt countries around the world? Isn't the rule of law a thing in the US?

SomeoneOnTheWeb 1y ago
It's (1) but ICE is making their job to intimidate people so they don't face consequences.
pjmlp 1y ago
You're missing the point courts are useless with current administration, for all practical purposes they are turning into a authoritarian regime, and many still think there is going to exist some magical elections to turn this around. I see all the signs of Portuguese dictorship that ended in 1974, and I as first generation being raised in freedom got to hear and learn plenty of stories on how everything used to be. Sadly also back home people have forgotten what it meant to live under authoritarian regime.
thinkharderdev 1y ago
> (1) can't they be taken to court? Yes, they can be and are being but it's not much comfort to know that the courts will decide a deportation was unlawful after you've already spent 6 months being tortured in an El Salvadoran prison.
- fuckyah 1y ago
  [dead]
moduspol 1y ago
It’s #2, and the status quo for quite some time is that immigration laws were just not enforced, or administratively bypassed. That’s why there’s a lot of pushback.

pelagicAustral 1y ago

I fail to understand how this app could help anybody... beyond the false-positive issue, how is this not a tool that no matter how it's used it will cause more chaos on any possible situation. Nearly on every case scenario this will be more likely to get people in danger.

diggan 1y ago
> I fail to understand how this app could help anybody If I was law enforcement, didn't like people reporting on my activities, and I saw Apple's boss getting cozy with my boss, I'd be eager to start getting help knowing exactly who is reporting me. And considering how the app works (using Apple's servers, with identifiable information), I'm pretty sure people using this app is helping someone, maybe not the ones we should be cheering on though.
- pelagicAustral 1y ago
  Ah damn! I was missing that use-case... Yeah, you're right, some is getting their fix from this.
chillingeffect 1y ago
Is there any chance you and your family are perfectly safe right now, under no threat of violence, and have no need for an app like this?
gruez 1y ago
Presumably they want something like waze, which is an app that (among other things) allows you to report speed traps and (presumably) avoid them.

aaron695 1y ago

[dead]

mothballed 1y ago

ICE would be perfectly happy Tiananmen Squaring 300 million people if they could just deport a single permanent resident with a meek opinion on Palestinian genocide. Good luck stopping that with an app.

antiloper 1y ago
GPT-2?
SapporoChris 1y ago
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meak https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meak
- mothballed 1y ago
  Thanks, edited
flanked-evergl 1y ago
Cite?

mikevm 1y ago

[flagged]

Quarrelsome 1y ago
ICE's current operational parameters don't seem to respect the constitutional rights of people. So idk if calling them "patriots" is appropriate.
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  ICE's current operational parameters does seem to respect the constitutional rights of people. So IMO calling them "patriots" is appropriate.
  - justinrubek 1y ago
    It's always alarming to see comments like this. I knew there were lots of you that hated the constitution, but that the disconnect is this far is hard to recognize.
    - flanked-evergl 1y ago
      Claiming that something "seems" so does not make it so. So far, I believe there has been 0 deportations of people who are citizens or held valid visas or green cards. I know it's seriously upsetting to some that laws are enforced, but that does not make it unconstitutional to do so.
      - Quarrelsome 1y ago
        So the rights of the constitution should only apply to citizens? I thought Thomas Paine wrote the book "The Rights of Man", not "The Rights of American Citizens". How does one misjudge the intent of the founding fathers so? The intent was to create a world free from the tyranny of the European ruling classes, where people had inherent rights, but some people just toss that away without regard.

homeonthemtn 1y ago

Nearly all US activism is ineffective theatre. It's theatre by people who don't understand how their own government works, nor cares to learn. So they look for shortcuts with ineffective protest theatre so they can pat themselves on the shoulder for "doing something about it" Meanwhile their government continues rightward unimpeded.

lern_too_spel 1y ago
People voted for segregation and ICE deportations. The point of protest theater like sit-ins and ICE protests is to make people confront what they voted for instead of being blissfully unaware of the harms. We live in a democracy, so the most effective way to reverse something that people voted for is by education, and voters will not seek out that education themselves. Often, it is the people who don't understand protest who understand the least about government. Many have the idea that if a democratically elected government does something they don't like, violently overthrowing the government will solve the problem. If the next government is a democracy, the same people will vote for the same policies.
- JeremyNT 1y ago
  I suppose the problem with it is that such "protest theater" could only work if the people who support the regime are capable of empathy for those who are objecting. In this case the opposite is true - this administration won on an explicit platform of retribution against political enemies of the right and an erosion of the constitutional order. Which is to say... they're getting what they wanted. Presumably every reminder that they're causing distress amongst people they are targeting will only increase their satisfaction.
  - lern_too_spel 1y ago
    I don't believe that more than 50% of voters are die hard racists. You just need to draw the attention of the portion of Trump voters who aren't.
- mathiaspoint 1y ago

faku812 1y ago

[flagged]

honeybadger1 1y ago

I'm not a fan of the skirting of due process from the administration, but I also do not believe in obstructing them or outing officers to the end of hurting them in the personal and professional lives. There is lack of acknowledgement of reality from left leaning people that one of Trumps big campaign items was getting rid of illegal aliens and he won on this, it must be acknowledged or you are part of the problem. My first point and last point can co-exist and did largely under the Obama administration(which held the deportation record prior to Trump). But what really intrigues me is why are they doing this in such a fast tracked way. All I can figure is they think a Democrat may win in the next election, and they don't want these people held up in courts so it can be reversed, they want them purged.

faku812 1y ago
The champions of democracy are suddenly worried about a democratically elected president enacting the will of the people who elected him. Truth is stranger than fiction.
- honeybadger1 1y ago
  I didn't vote for Trump, but I can completely understand the desire to be rid' of illegal immigrants that do not respect our laws and not looking to get right with the system. Where I am originally from it was basically 8/10 drug related crime arrests was someone that had illegal status and it was such an issue the police force would essentially pull anyone over that even looked Mexican, straight up racial profiling. This is a problem of our own creation and we have ignored it for 2 generations by letting immigration law go unenforced and while also not improving the path to citizenship for those who are law abiding and want to be a proper citizen or legal resident. Immigration is the primary wedge issue to drive people apart like abortion has been, but now it doesn't have the same luster because it's no longer a federal issue, but a state one.

wheelerwj 1y ago

This is a disingenuous article that makes the author sound both pompous and jealous of iceblock’s success. Each fact presented proves that this is not activism theater, and that the author is the one play-acting. This original creator is absolutely in over his head and now finds himself in a tough spot. Any help he is offered could be just as malicious as the false reporting and fake reviews. If the author actually gives a shit, they should try and educate the creator. Or maybe just focus on building an android app?

throwing-up 1y ago

Some difficult questions for sympathizers of illegal immigrants. 1) Why is this app allowed on the App Store? It’s helping illegal activity within the borders of a sovereign nation. 2) Nations are allowed to determine who comes and doesn’t to their countries as per their right to rule as a sovereign nation and their national security interests. Nobody vetted the 11-13 million people who poured over the border. It’s impossible to imagine that democratic institutions will not change their behavior if you get an influx of 11-13 million people, who then have children who become citizens. I mean that votes are just a counting game. So if you get more voters who are anti-abortion but previously you were all pro-choice, then that changes culture. So why shouldn’t countries get to decide who comes and goes? 3) Why shouldn’t countries have their own culture? Or not want to be multicultural? If there are laws that prevent racism or discrimination against different religions, then that’s not multiculturalism, just civility. Why is assimilation unacceptable for someone who moves in? 4) If you want to talk about the injustices of colonialism, then note that a) there are many countries that overcame those barriers despite similar histories to the country of origin of these illegal immigrants. Look at India, for instance. And b) not all illegal immigrants are more poor countries, but from thriving economies like China, India, Mexico or Brazil. Why is it justified that thriving or different economies should offload people who struggle in their own countries to other countries? How is that responsible governance? Countries should be responsible for their own poor people. 5) Many Latin American nations were already developmentally different, or delayed from another perspective, when colonialists landed on their shores. It’s clear there are cultural differences which produce incompatibility in how people want to live or govern. Ideally, nations whose people were subjected to racism or colonialism would use Japan or Brazil as models for national growth and development. Why should people be forced to live together if they don’t want the same things?

nomdep 1y ago
[flagged]
Quarrelsome 1y ago
1) because ICE deportations are often performed illegally, are given target numbers to hit (i.e. the volume matters more than the correctness) and run by an administration that doesn't respect the courts. 2) not sure this is a question. People are predominantly upset because of ICE's methods, which are often aggressive and brutal (imprison first ask questions weeks or months later). 3) not sure this is a question either. My parents have no idea how to play super mario, so culture changes quite a lot internally within seemingly culturally homogenous communities. 4) who gives a shit about colonialism. Its just ironic when yanks talk about "muh America" when their entire culture is one of being immigrants. I believe that's the reason people bring it up. 5) People are already "forced" to live together wanting different things. Every US election is like 50/50. So idk how these questions are difficult. Also ICE go after legal migrants too, so this ain't just about "illegals". The irish guy who fucked his foot up and couldn't take his flight home went through every piece of due process possible and still got shit-canned. ICE are monstrous and oppressive.

flanked-evergl 1y ago

[flagged]

Fnoord 1y ago

Interesting, in the first video Joshua mentions at 4m30s the user needs to have serious willpower to report every 5 min (ie. he feels the app is protection against a Sybil attack). I don't think this is the case. All you need is the following: 1) iOS VM (Corellium?). 2) Desktop automation on your host OS (e.g. AutoHotKey). 3) Spoof GPS with random USA-specific or carefully curated GPS coords (targeting neighborhoods they don't like?). This can be done with a SDR or a local application (which I know exist for Android but I am not sure for iOS; it'd depend on VM?). A determined adversary would have multiple of these setups. It'd require a little bit of tech know-how, but as you can see it isn't rocket science, and an adversary with a lot of money to burn would just hire someone to do this. All in all, this application is not safe against a hostile US government, but a random low IQ MAGA idiot who is determined would even do this manually, in mom's basement indeed. You can even set an alarm every 5 min. And remember, from [1]. The brownshirts were in numbers, and identifiable (at least after 1926 [2]). [1] ICE Is Nothing Like the Brownshirts, Because the Brownshirts Actually Identified Themselves https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/ice-is-nothing-like-the-brownshirts-because-the-brownshirts-actually-identified-themselves https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/ice-is-nothing-like-the-... [2] https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Uniforms_and_insignia_of_the_Sturmabteilung#Early_SA_rank_insignia_(1924-1929) https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Uniforms_and_insign...

gruez 1y ago
>1) iOS VM (Corellium?). A VM can't spoof on-device attestation. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicecheck/establishing-your-app-s-integrity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/devicecheck/establ... It's still possible to do do Sybil attacks, but you need real devices, not VMs.

Fnoord 1y ago

In Belgium, you're not allowed to say you see traffic cameras on the highway. Result: people replace the word with something else: falling stars. So in Belgium on the radio they announce falling stars on highway E19 north of Antwerp. Everyone knows the meaning. In Germany, you must only give a positive review as reference for a job application. Result: scale changes: 'performed' (worst), 'performed well' (OK) 'performed extremely well' (satisfied) -- with various levels of exaggeration. Everyone knows the meaning. In both of these situations an authority who is known (radio host, employer) are a filter of information and purposefully use the wrong terminology to address the issue in a truthful manner. The problem is that curation costs resources (time/money/energy) which you may or may not have scarcity of. I'd say multiple reports of same location warrants a usable sign, but Micah Lee's experience says otherwise: still usually false positives due to people panicking and not analyzing the situation correctly.

flanked-evergl 1y ago
Some great tips on how to engage in illegal activity without facing accountability under democratically made laws. I hear in South Africa, the taxis started a war against the government when the government wanted them to pay toll fees on the roads, and I hear some criminals avoid paying taxes by hiding their assets. So many great ways to flaunt a society's laws.

prinzmaus 1y ago

What is the antidote for activism theater? As a motivated-to-contribute American, where do we find the resources for us to help out in a way that is meaningful?

NoGravitas 1y ago
You need to join an organization that is doing more than activism theater. This is surprisingly hard to do. For one thing, because of COINTELPRO infiltrating leftist groups, there have been a couple generations of activists who have never known anything other than activism theater. For another, our hyperindividualized society tends to disincentivize collective action. It's probably easier to find an organization doing good work in one area than one looking at the whole picture, so if there's an issue you particularly care about, you should probably compare the leading organizations focusing on that issue.