10 ms·

There Goes the American Muscle Car

56 points by pluripote 1y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20250828210304/https://thedispatch.com/article/dodge-challenger-muscle-cars/ https://archive.ph/DEtKt

supportengineer 1y ago
I think a Mustang would be a great car to own, especially with a V-8 and manual transmission, but social media has ruined it for me. There are non stop videos of Mustangs crashing when leaving meets such as Cars With Coffee. Now, the Mustang brand is synonymous with this type of driving. If you bought one you would immediately be looked down upon.
- herpdyderp 1y ago
  I've seen plenty of similar videos of Corvettes, Porsches, Challengers, etc. and it has no impact on my view of the brand or model.
  - Esophagus4 1y ago
    You’re a better man than I, because the clientele has definitely ruined some brands for me. Every time I see a car zipping in and out of lanes at 90 mph with no turn signal, it’s a BMW. And similarly for the boomers with goatees and USA tees with Corvettes. And similarly for Camaros with aftermarket exhausts that seem to exist for no reason other than irritating your neighbors. I don’t want to be associated with that. I know it’s shallow, but then again, so am I…
    - mulmen 1y ago
      Congratulations you discovered confirmation bias. Now consider where else in your life you have incorrectly validated your own prejudices.
      - Esophagus4 1y ago
        Lemme guess… BMW?
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - platevoltage 1y ago
    I assume anyone driving a Challenger or Charger is someone I need to stay away from.
- eschneider 1y ago
  People don't look down on Mustangs, they look down on people with more horsepower than brains.
- GenerWork 1y ago
  Who cares what the social media jabronis drive? If you want a manual V8 Mustang and can afford it, get it and have some fun.
- MSFT_Edging 1y ago
  It genuinely is just people joking. I've never met a mustang owner that got upset by the crowd jokes, and they often tell them themselves. Mustangs got the reputation because they were cheap power with a solid rear end which made peeling out into a turn incredibly unstable.
  - genewitch 1y ago
    "Mustangs are all exhaust until they hit the wall" - my ex i owned one. it was quite loud. Not as loud as the 240SX i took the muffler off to have a shop look at it up the road, but still, pretty loud. I still drive a 4.6L V8, though. Just not american.
    - MSFT_Edging 1y ago
      I mean they're only as loud as the person with the saw is determined.
      - genewitch 1y ago
        Ford uses large empty volumes in or around their air cleaner boxes in their "beefy" vehicles, it gives them a distinct sound. For instance, my lexus has the same size engine as a Mustang GT, but it does not sound like a mustang GT at all, because the dual air cleaner boxes are maybe 3% larger than the filter that goes in them. On my ford turbocharged f-150 the air cleaner was like one of those 3 gallon shop vacuums in volume, with a 1.5" thick air filter. Smaller engine (by a whole liter!), but much growlier and beefier. Mercedes did a neat thing with the exhaust on the C63, where you could flip a switch and switch between "neighborhood" and "open road" exhaust profiles. I think it's one of the best sounding cars ever made.
  - supportengineer 1y ago
    You know I was curious about your statement so I looked it up and Mustangs have had independent rear suspension since 2015
    - 1y ago
- platevoltage 1y ago
  Or you could grab a Dodge Viper before they're all crashed by their owners.
  - drillbyt 1y ago
    I put a supercharger on mine :D
    - platevoltage 1y ago
      I made my 90 horsepower Mercedes run on veggie oil. wanna race?
cogman10 1y ago
> Brooke Rennert, a 21-year-old from Rochester Hills putting herself through welding school by working as the only woman at her oil-change job, isn’t having any of it. “I don’t like electric cars. I like the sound of a heavy engine. I like the power,” she said. “An electric vehicle has power, but in a different way. It’s not like a big V8, big-block sound.” This, IMO, is exactly why they are dying. They are more expensive than regular cars and the only reason anyone likes them is because they are loud and obnoxious. There's just fewer and fewer people that need a loud noise maker to be happy, certainly not when that noise maker will cost you $60k you likely don't have since inflation has gone crazy while salaries have stagnated. The people that do end up gravitating to the noise makers will choose a loud motorcycle instead.
- herpdyderp 1y ago
  Most of the people I know (including myself) that are into these kinds of cars buy used instead. Or they bought their car 50 years ago and still maintain it.
- thmsths 1y ago
  Isn't Harley Davidson dying too though?
  - cogman10 1y ago
    There are much cheaper and louder competitors to Harleys. It doesn't help that harleys are pretty strongly associated with Gen X and Boomers now. You don't usually see millennials or Gen z riding a harley.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      They'll probably become popular with the Alphas or Betas again.
- a2dam 1y ago
  Salaries have outpaced inflation until recently.
top_sigrid 1y ago
https://archive.ph/2025.08.28-152642/https://thedispatch.com/article/dodge-challenger-muscle-cars/ https://archive.ph/2025.08.28-152642/https://thedispatch.com...
- pluripote 1y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20250828210304/https://thedispatch.com/article/dodge-challenger-muscle-cars/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250828210304/https://thedispat...
matteotom 1y ago
I can't remember where I heard this but it stuck with me: Teslas are the new American muscle car - fast in a straight line, but otherwise poor build quality and lacking the attention to drivers' experience you get from European brands.
- threetonesun 1y ago
  Many 60s/70s American muscle cars had racing pedigrees. It was a coupe with a V8, one could argue they were replaced by the JDM market with turbo 4s/I6s in the 90s early 2000s. Maybe more importantly, either of the above had an appealing visual style (to some!) and had their own community around them. Teslas are pretty visually boring, you can't really modify them, but I suppose they have a community of their own who debates which version of software drives the car for you better.
- sssilver 1y ago
  As a person who owned multiple Teslas I really don’t understand the “poor build quality” sentiment. What other car at the same price point has better build quality? And if one or two do, does that make the Teslas build quality “poor”? I had a MINI. That was a build quality disaster. Major engine issues after only three years. I now have a Silverado 1500 LTZ. It has obvious build quality issues. Interior isn’t as good as it used to be. Gearbox has a banging sound. My Teslas seem so much better than either of those or most other cars I interact with really. I sat in my friends Toyota Camry the other day. The interior seemed so much cheaper, the sound quality so much worse, the cabin was so much more loud than my humble Model 3. What about my car has poor build quality that I am oblivious to?
  - kridsdale1 1y ago
    Lexus.
    - tw_wankette 1y ago
      I have a Lexus LX, one of the most expensive Lexus vehicles ever made. I love it. It was made in Japan. Tesla panel gaps and quality are fine. They had some early issues, but the damn things are basically body panels hung off of almost entirely cast chunks of metal. There is not a lot of room for wiggle. If anything, they're so we'll integrated that they're hard to repair after a crash.
arjie 1y ago
A 2023 Dodge Charger GT V6 does 0-60 in 6.4 s My 2018 Subaru Forester does 0-60 in 6.3 s Imagine you're getting smoked by a 7 year old dad-mobile with paddle shifters. And I'm not even running a Cobb tune. That isn't a muscle car. That's a synthol car. https://www.burnsmotors.com/cdjr-research/dodge-charger-0-60/ https://www.burnsmotors.com/cdjr-research/dodge-charger-0-60...
- themafia 1y ago
  A Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat does 0-60 in 3.6s. A Suzuki GSX-1000 can do it in 2.5s.
  - vondur 1y ago
    Crotch Rocket vs Muscle Car?
    - kridsdale1 1y ago
      Hopefully not head-on.
  - dumbmrblah 1y ago
    Rivian R1T 2.5 seconds https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/rivian-0-60-mph-times/ https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/rivian-0-60-mph-t... 2024 Tesla Model 3 Performance - 2.8 seconds Getting smoked by a soccer mom
    - themafia 1y ago
      You're right next to the point yet you've missed it. The Rivian has a wide range of performance _options_. With only the "2025 Rivian R1T Ascend Quad Max" having the performance you've quoted. How is the "ascend quad max" segment ideologically different from the "srt hellcat" segment? Likewise the _standard_ Tesla 3 has quite a bit different 0 to 60 times than what you've quoted here. Do you really think your soccer mom is buying the "performance" edition of the vehicle and not the "long range?" Which proves the point, performance options are not dead, and EVs only continue the trend, they don't obviate it.
RatchetWerks 1y ago
As a die hard car enthusiast. This makes perfect sense. We are going through a culture change in society. Many younger kids don’t view cars as the gateway to freedom and coming of age experiences. (Which is fine) Combined with the brutal performance of modern EV cars. Muscle cars seem like a waste of time/energy/money/complexity. Logically it makes no sense. I’m currently going through an identity crisis (as a gearhead) as a result of this.
- ismokedoinks 1y ago
  The kids yearn for JDMs
  - platevoltage 1y ago
    Do they? It seems like its the 30/40 somethings that yearned for the JDMs back when we were young, who are the ones still yearning for the JDMs.
- PaulHoule 1y ago
  Don't forgot to lay some of the blame on trucks, SUVs, and the chicken tax. [1] American car manufacturers aren't interested in making anything that can't be classified as a "light truck" because then they'd have to compete on a level playing field with foreign brands. So every kind of "car" has disappeared. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
  - twoWhlsGud 1y ago
    This. If you are completely surrounded by light trucks as you grow up, then you are much less likely to ever think of actual cars (muscle or otherwise) at all. I grew up around 2000 lbs BMW 2002's (and the like) - a kind of vehicle that simply has vanished. So I could imagine lightweight sport sedans as a thing. If all you know are SUV's your concept of vehicle is going to be very different...
    - PaulHoule 1y ago
ProfessorLayton 1y ago
The crazy thing is there's nothing stopping manufacturers from making electric muscle cars. Instead, we get boring aerodynamic cloned appliances sold as "SUVs". As I've grown older though, I noticed that the less I need to drive, the happier I am. So I don't really need more than an appliance, I suppose.
- rexer 1y ago
  What would an EV muscle car look like? Tesla Model 3 seems to check a lot of boxes. Definitely not noise or muscle car power delivery, but those seems like unrealistic goals for an EV
  - ProfessorLayton 1y ago
    IMO what made American muscle cars special was their combination of power + unique styling + price. Yeah they were noisy (Which some really liked) and sometimes impractical, but that was okay because of they weren't trying to be everything to everyone. A Model 3 might check a lot of boxes, but its styling is definitely not unique, and the rest of car itself is tying to appeal to as many as possible.
    - burnt-resistor 1y ago
      Insecure dudes seem to derive insouciant-to-proud self-satisfaction from inflicting noise, visual, and actual pollution on the rest of us which partially explains coal rollers and gaudy, loud motorcycles.
      - defrost 1y ago
        FWiW there's not a lot of insecurity in the B&S boys that hit the Ute Musters for the circle work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mtFYUOvYs8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mtFYUOvYs8 A couple of thousand acres, big sheds, a couple of silos, a few trucks and combine harvesters and a go hard or go home frequently sideways attitude 'll do that, it seems.
flatline-84 1y ago
Here in Australia, Mustang V8s hold their value pretty well. When I was looking for a sports car (which I've now learnt is very different to a muscle car), the Mustang was top of the list because there was nothing else out there with: - manual - V8 - 2 doors - under <$100k I spent a week with one, and while I quite enjoyed it, it required you to really rev out the engine to feel anything (which is nice!). Except that would push you into 130km/h+ which means instant loss of license for 6 months and a forever tarnished record meaning insurance is much more expensive for the rest of your life. Settled for an ND2 MX-5 that I throw around corners now. It means I have to have a "normal" car as a daily (as the MX-5 isn't that practical) but it also means I can have fun without getting pulled up by the gestapo
- tw_wankette 1y ago
  Am I reading this right? 130 km/h is ~ 80 mph. In the US, doing 80 in a 70-zone doesn't upset most police officers.
  - shirro 1y ago
    Australia's road laws tend to be strictly applied. Large fines and demerit points that can lead to loss of licence. We also have random breath tests. We have much lower road fatalities than the USA per 100,000 people and per billion km traveled though the rates in remote areas are considerably higher.
  - quicklime 1y ago
    I'm not the person you replied to, but in a 110 km/h (70 mph) zone you'd get away with just a fine in Australia if caught/pulled over. To lose your license for six months, you'd need to be doing 130+ km/h in an 80 km/h (50 mph) zone.
    - flatline-84 1y ago
      No, loss of license is 20-24km/h over the speed limit in a 110km/h zone (our fastest roads iirc). So 130 is sayonara license. For every other road, 25km/h+ is instant loss of license. This is for Vic btw https://online.fines.vic.gov.au/Your-options/Fine-amounts-and-demerit-points https://online.fines.vic.gov.au/Your-options/Fine-amounts-an...
burnt-resistor 1y ago
You can't buy cool new off a parking lot, but marketing has convinced masses as such. I'd rather have an EV conversion vintage VW Westy, Defender 110, Citroën DS, or Ferrari 250 GT California, or a fuggly Thing, Edsel, or Lada.
- platevoltage 1y ago
  I want to do an EV conversion to my 86 Mercedes once that becomes something affordable to pull off.
  - burnt-resistor 1y ago
    It's affordable now using reclaimed Tesla parts. Here's one vendor: https://www.evwest.com/ https://www.evwest.com/ I really want to ditch the 1.9L H4 Digijet in my '85 Westfalia. It's a total PITA (direct fuel injection and a distributor) but I'm not keen on dropping in a GoWesty or "Subagon" ICE motor when EV is the way to go.
    - BizarroLand 1y ago
      I have considered doing a swap on my Jeep CJ7, but the costs are just a touch out of reach still. I have a friend who does the copart thing, maybe I'll have him keep an eye out for a cheap wrecked Tesla
    - platevoltage 1y ago
      oh god is that one of those "wasserboxers". I hear those are troublesome to say the least which is why they often get replaced with Subaru Engines. I'd trust my weak ass diesel engine to drive me to hell and back, but I know that won't last.
- jedberg 1y ago
  > Ferrari 250 GT California doing an EV conversion on a body kit is my dream car. Although I like your style of doing a Thing or an Edsel! You'd miss out on the unique gear pattern on the Thing haha.
a_vanderbilt 1y ago
Given the advancements of EVs, the death of the muscle car was inevitable. They are almost universally faster, more performant, more efficient, and more "cool" in their designs. Do gear heads dislike them? Sure, but they aren't going to be the market forever. As energy costs rise, natural market forces will shift the demands of the buyer.
- jgalt212 1y ago
  > As energy costs rise, That's a big if. And even more so if everyone moves to EVs, then gas demand goes down and it ICEs become even cheaper to run. Ultimately, we need a carbon tax and no more EV credits. What did EV credits do for us? It created Elon.
  - platevoltage 1y ago
    There was probably a time when vacuum tubes were extremely cheap for audio enthusiasts that kept their tube amps as the world was transitioning into solid state electronics. That did not last, and I'm talking about before trade with Russia was basically halted.
- platevoltage 1y ago
  It doesn't help that we have a bunch of people who drive crossovers with zero character, can't point to a spark plug on their engine, but are also somehow so upset about the internal combustion engine being replaced that they fighting EV adoption with everything they have. It's almost like they're told what to think.
dartharva 1y ago
http://archive.today/sDCzk http://archive.today/sDCzk
thunderbong 1y ago
https://archive.is/sDCzk https://archive.is/sDCzk
osullivj 1y ago
The sound a crossplane V8 makes is especially delightful due to the [necessarily] asymmetric firing order. Crossplanes fire every 90 degrees, flatplanes every 180. Flatplanes produce a metallic yowl, crossplanes a fruity burble. Beats and timing are hardwired into human psychoacoustics somehow. Beats are counts without explicit numerals. The idea of mathematical aesthetic standards are appealing cf golden ratio. Crossplane firing asymmetry tickles my aesthetic fancy somehow via the Beats. So my overpowered Merc V8 is music to my ears!
Animats 1y ago
Classic muscle cars are obsolete. Most cars today have 0-60 times a 1970s Dodge Challenger could only dream of.[1] Plus, they can now go around corners. Here's an old movie: "Hot Rod Girl" (1956) [2] The opening scenes are of a real drag strip in Southern California. Technical advice from the San Fernando Drag Strip and the National Hot Rod Association. Accelerations are so low that those things would be obstructing traffic on a freeway onramp today. [1] https://www.0-60specs.com/dodge/challenger-0-60-times https://www.0-60specs.com/dodge/challenger-0-60-times [2] https://archive.org/details/hot_rod_girl_1956 https://archive.org/details/hot_rod_girl_1956
- CamperBob2 1y ago
  Dig those Dekatrons!
- downrightmike 1y ago
  You can still have one today, but its a Sunday driver for sure
- dingaling 1y ago
  Acceleration times say nothing about the character of a car. Anyone can launch a Model S or Taycan at insane accelerations just by pushing a pedal and letting the computer sort things out. Trying to do so in a 1970s Camaro or a 1980s Sierra XR4 requires skill and practice whilst listening to the howl of the engine, feeling the texture of the road through the steering and sensing the suspension loading-up. All of that has been lost. Driving has been reduced to an ordeal to be ensured with as little interaction with the vehicle as possible.
  - lagniappe 1y ago
    There's just something spiritual about the rumble and cadence of a cammed muscle car..
    - BoredPositron 1y ago
      There is something "spiritual" about a dial up modem handshake as well...
jillesvangurp 1y ago
I got upgraded once to a yellow mustang in San Francisco. I admit, I wasn't unhappy about that. I reserved the economy car, I ended up driving around the valley in a yellow mustang. With a big smile on my face. But it wasn't necessarily a great car. It had a lot of condensation on the inside of the car in the morning. I've never seen that in any other car. My suitcase barely fit in the back. Etc. A lot of form over function in that car. I don't own a car. In fact, I've never owned one. I just rent cars when I need them, which isn't all that often these days. I live in Berlin which is a big city that wile car friendly (by European standards) is a bit of a PITA to get around in by car. And there's public transport. And it takes about fifty minutes to even leave the city in a car because you are stuck in stop start traffic. But if I ever move out, I might need a car. If I ever buy a car, it will be electric. ICE cars are relics of the past. That mustang makes pleasing vroom vroom noises (and they are very pleasing) but that's about it. That's what they are optimized for. Even a modest EV has more torque (the whole point of a muscle car), better handling, etc. And they are just a lot more practical. EV performance breaks the illusion that a muscle car is, well, a muscle car. As for EVs being boring. Many of them are. Especially those in the US because it's currently cut off from the rest of the world and not exactly state of the art at this point. If you want exciting EVs to lust after, go to China. They have them in every shape and size. The new xpeng looks great, there's the huawei car, the BYD u7 and u9. And some of those are quite affordable (in China). They are unobtainium elsewhere of course, which adds to their desirability. I don't speak from experience of course, but I do watch a lot of EV reviews. There's this myth that EVs can't be fun. They can be. It's not about the noise but it is about the highly tunable driving experience, ridiculous torque, etc. What works for muscle cars (big engine, light weight car) also works for EVs. Some of the more affordable fun options are smaller, lighter cars. Even retro conversions of classic sports cars can be a lot of fun apparently. And some of those end up being lighter after their conversion and handle better than the original. And I bet there are a few classic muscle car conversions. Are they still fun if you take away the vroom vroom noise but otherwise increase all the performance metrics? I don't know. It probably still is quite a lot of fun to drive one.
- flomo 1y ago
  Just fyi, the Mustang was originally marketed as more of a young woman's car, and only certain models are considered to be "musclemen" cars. Rental agencies stock these because they are fun for tourists, so glad you enjoyed it. (SF Bay has a greenbelt, so recommend to all driving the 1 or 35 Skyline to Santa Cruz.)
chrismatheson 1y ago
Not sure I agree with the premise. New cars are being made. Sure this might kinda suck. But most of the enthusiast are driving and loving cars from the 1970's that have been out of production for decades right? Saying EV's kill muscle cars is like saying Cars killed of horse riding. Sure, there are less breeders for day-to-day travelling requirement style stuff, but the hobbyists keep everything going, and in some ways I would imagine it will bring round a golden era where these things aren't required to be useful as day-to-day options and can just be for fun
smileysteve 1y ago
I disagree with the article substantially; the truth is that Dodge is a dying brand, and the charger and challenger were never practical muscle cars - mostly because Dodge is less part of any racing series. The Ford Mustang is having a resurgence in actually being a sports car, because Ford is investing in Lemans and Imsa. Honda, Toyota, Cadillac, Ford are the major performance cars these days... And Hyundai has a much bigger investment than Dodge. The consolidation of Mercedes, VW, Porsche, and Audi is an interesting challenge to the segment; Bmw and Mazda are also in the game.
cmxch 1y ago
Get rid of CARB and CAFE, then see if that still holds.

56 points by pluripote 1y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20250828210304/https://thedispatch.com/article/dodge-challenger-muscle-cars/ https://archive.ph/DEtKt

supportengineer 1y ago

I think a Mustang would be a great car to own, especially with a V-8 and manual transmission, but social media has ruined it for me. There are non stop videos of Mustangs crashing when leaving meets such as Cars With Coffee. Now, the Mustang brand is synonymous with this type of driving. If you bought one you would immediately be looked down upon.

herpdyderp 1y ago
I've seen plenty of similar videos of Corvettes, Porsches, Challengers, etc. and it has no impact on my view of the brand or model.
- Esophagus4 1y ago
  You’re a better man than I, because the clientele has definitely ruined some brands for me. Every time I see a car zipping in and out of lanes at 90 mph with no turn signal, it’s a BMW. And similarly for the boomers with goatees and USA tees with Corvettes. And similarly for Camaros with aftermarket exhausts that seem to exist for no reason other than irritating your neighbors. I don’t want to be associated with that. I know it’s shallow, but then again, so am I…
  - mulmen 1y ago
    Congratulations you discovered confirmation bias. Now consider where else in your life you have incorrectly validated your own prejudices.
    - Esophagus4 1y ago
      Lemme guess… BMW?
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- platevoltage 1y ago
  I assume anyone driving a Challenger or Charger is someone I need to stay away from.
eschneider 1y ago
People don't look down on Mustangs, they look down on people with more horsepower than brains.
GenerWork 1y ago
Who cares what the social media jabronis drive? If you want a manual V8 Mustang and can afford it, get it and have some fun.
MSFT_Edging 1y ago
It genuinely is just people joking. I've never met a mustang owner that got upset by the crowd jokes, and they often tell them themselves. Mustangs got the reputation because they were cheap power with a solid rear end which made peeling out into a turn incredibly unstable.
- genewitch 1y ago
  "Mustangs are all exhaust until they hit the wall" - my ex i owned one. it was quite loud. Not as loud as the 240SX i took the muffler off to have a shop look at it up the road, but still, pretty loud. I still drive a 4.6L V8, though. Just not american.
  - MSFT_Edging 1y ago
    I mean they're only as loud as the person with the saw is determined.
    - genewitch 1y ago
      Ford uses large empty volumes in or around their air cleaner boxes in their "beefy" vehicles, it gives them a distinct sound. For instance, my lexus has the same size engine as a Mustang GT, but it does not sound like a mustang GT at all, because the dual air cleaner boxes are maybe 3% larger than the filter that goes in them. On my ford turbocharged f-150 the air cleaner was like one of those 3 gallon shop vacuums in volume, with a 1.5" thick air filter. Smaller engine (by a whole liter!), but much growlier and beefier. Mercedes did a neat thing with the exhaust on the C63, where you could flip a switch and switch between "neighborhood" and "open road" exhaust profiles. I think it's one of the best sounding cars ever made.
- supportengineer 1y ago
  You know I was curious about your statement so I looked it up and Mustangs have had independent rear suspension since 2015
  - 1y ago
platevoltage 1y ago
Or you could grab a Dodge Viper before they're all crashed by their owners.
- drillbyt 1y ago
  I put a supercharger on mine :D
  - platevoltage 1y ago
    I made my 90 horsepower Mercedes run on veggie oil. wanna race?

cogman10 1y ago

> Brooke Rennert, a 21-year-old from Rochester Hills putting herself through welding school by working as the only woman at her oil-change job, isn’t having any of it. “I don’t like electric cars. I like the sound of a heavy engine. I like the power,” she said. “An electric vehicle has power, but in a different way. It’s not like a big V8, big-block sound.” This, IMO, is exactly why they are dying. They are more expensive than regular cars and the only reason anyone likes them is because they are loud and obnoxious. There's just fewer and fewer people that need a loud noise maker to be happy, certainly not when that noise maker will cost you $60k you likely don't have since inflation has gone crazy while salaries have stagnated. The people that do end up gravitating to the noise makers will choose a loud motorcycle instead.

herpdyderp 1y ago
Most of the people I know (including myself) that are into these kinds of cars buy used instead. Or they bought their car 50 years ago and still maintain it.
thmsths 1y ago
Isn't Harley Davidson dying too though?
- cogman10 1y ago
  There are much cheaper and louder competitors to Harleys. It doesn't help that harleys are pretty strongly associated with Gen X and Boomers now. You don't usually see millennials or Gen z riding a harley.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    They'll probably become popular with the Alphas or Betas again.
a2dam 1y ago
Salaries have outpaced inflation until recently.

top_sigrid 1y ago

https://archive.ph/2025.08.28-152642/https://thedispatch.com/article/dodge-challenger-muscle-cars/ https://archive.ph/2025.08.28-152642/https://thedispatch.com...

pluripote 1y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20250828210304/https://thedispatch.com/article/dodge-challenger-muscle-cars/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250828210304/https://thedispat...

matteotom 1y ago

I can't remember where I heard this but it stuck with me: Teslas are the new American muscle car - fast in a straight line, but otherwise poor build quality and lacking the attention to drivers' experience you get from European brands.

threetonesun 1y ago
Many 60s/70s American muscle cars had racing pedigrees. It was a coupe with a V8, one could argue they were replaced by the JDM market with turbo 4s/I6s in the 90s early 2000s. Maybe more importantly, either of the above had an appealing visual style (to some!) and had their own community around them. Teslas are pretty visually boring, you can't really modify them, but I suppose they have a community of their own who debates which version of software drives the car for you better.
sssilver 1y ago
As a person who owned multiple Teslas I really don’t understand the “poor build quality” sentiment. What other car at the same price point has better build quality? And if one or two do, does that make the Teslas build quality “poor”? I had a MINI. That was a build quality disaster. Major engine issues after only three years. I now have a Silverado 1500 LTZ. It has obvious build quality issues. Interior isn’t as good as it used to be. Gearbox has a banging sound. My Teslas seem so much better than either of those or most other cars I interact with really. I sat in my friends Toyota Camry the other day. The interior seemed so much cheaper, the sound quality so much worse, the cabin was so much more loud than my humble Model 3. What about my car has poor build quality that I am oblivious to?
- kridsdale1 1y ago
  Lexus.
  - tw_wankette 1y ago
    I have a Lexus LX, one of the most expensive Lexus vehicles ever made. I love it. It was made in Japan. Tesla panel gaps and quality are fine. They had some early issues, but the damn things are basically body panels hung off of almost entirely cast chunks of metal. There is not a lot of room for wiggle. If anything, they're so we'll integrated that they're hard to repair after a crash.

arjie 1y ago

A 2023 Dodge Charger GT V6 does 0-60 in 6.4 s My 2018 Subaru Forester does 0-60 in 6.3 s Imagine you're getting smoked by a 7 year old dad-mobile with paddle shifters. And I'm not even running a Cobb tune. That isn't a muscle car. That's a synthol car. https://www.burnsmotors.com/cdjr-research/dodge-charger-0-60/ https://www.burnsmotors.com/cdjr-research/dodge-charger-0-60...

themafia 1y ago
A Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat does 0-60 in 3.6s. A Suzuki GSX-1000 can do it in 2.5s.
- vondur 1y ago
  Crotch Rocket vs Muscle Car?
  - kridsdale1 1y ago
    Hopefully not head-on.
- dumbmrblah 1y ago
  Rivian R1T 2.5 seconds https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/rivian-0-60-mph-times/ https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/rivian-0-60-mph-t... 2024 Tesla Model 3 Performance - 2.8 seconds Getting smoked by a soccer mom
  - themafia 1y ago
    You're right next to the point yet you've missed it. The Rivian has a wide range of performance _options_. With only the "2025 Rivian R1T Ascend Quad Max" having the performance you've quoted. How is the "ascend quad max" segment ideologically different from the "srt hellcat" segment? Likewise the _standard_ Tesla 3 has quite a bit different 0 to 60 times than what you've quoted here. Do you really think your soccer mom is buying the "performance" edition of the vehicle and not the "long range?" Which proves the point, performance options are not dead, and EVs only continue the trend, they don't obviate it.

RatchetWerks 1y ago

As a die hard car enthusiast. This makes perfect sense. We are going through a culture change in society. Many younger kids don’t view cars as the gateway to freedom and coming of age experiences. (Which is fine) Combined with the brutal performance of modern EV cars. Muscle cars seem like a waste of time/energy/money/complexity. Logically it makes no sense. I’m currently going through an identity crisis (as a gearhead) as a result of this.

ismokedoinks 1y ago
The kids yearn for JDMs
- platevoltage 1y ago
  Do they? It seems like its the 30/40 somethings that yearned for the JDMs back when we were young, who are the ones still yearning for the JDMs.
PaulHoule 1y ago
Don't forgot to lay some of the blame on trucks, SUVs, and the chicken tax. [1] American car manufacturers aren't interested in making anything that can't be classified as a "light truck" because then they'd have to compete on a level playing field with foreign brands. So every kind of "car" has disappeared. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
- twoWhlsGud 1y ago
  This. If you are completely surrounded by light trucks as you grow up, then you are much less likely to ever think of actual cars (muscle or otherwise) at all. I grew up around 2000 lbs BMW 2002's (and the like) - a kind of vehicle that simply has vanished. So I could imagine lightweight sport sedans as a thing. If all you know are SUV's your concept of vehicle is going to be very different...
  - PaulHoule 1y ago

ProfessorLayton 1y ago

The crazy thing is there's nothing stopping manufacturers from making electric muscle cars. Instead, we get boring aerodynamic cloned appliances sold as "SUVs". As I've grown older though, I noticed that the less I need to drive, the happier I am. So I don't really need more than an appliance, I suppose.

rexer 1y ago
What would an EV muscle car look like? Tesla Model 3 seems to check a lot of boxes. Definitely not noise or muscle car power delivery, but those seems like unrealistic goals for an EV
- ProfessorLayton 1y ago
  IMO what made American muscle cars special was their combination of power + unique styling + price. Yeah they were noisy (Which some really liked) and sometimes impractical, but that was okay because of they weren't trying to be everything to everyone. A Model 3 might check a lot of boxes, but its styling is definitely not unique, and the rest of car itself is tying to appeal to as many as possible.
  - burnt-resistor 1y ago
    Insecure dudes seem to derive insouciant-to-proud self-satisfaction from inflicting noise, visual, and actual pollution on the rest of us which partially explains coal rollers and gaudy, loud motorcycles.
    - defrost 1y ago
      FWiW there's not a lot of insecurity in the B&S boys that hit the Ute Musters for the circle work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mtFYUOvYs8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mtFYUOvYs8 A couple of thousand acres, big sheds, a couple of silos, a few trucks and combine harvesters and a go hard or go home frequently sideways attitude 'll do that, it seems.

flatline-84 1y ago

Here in Australia, Mustang V8s hold their value pretty well. When I was looking for a sports car (which I've now learnt is very different to a muscle car), the Mustang was top of the list because there was nothing else out there with: - manual - V8 - 2 doors - under <$100k I spent a week with one, and while I quite enjoyed it, it required you to really rev out the engine to feel anything (which is nice!). Except that would push you into 130km/h+ which means instant loss of license for 6 months and a forever tarnished record meaning insurance is much more expensive for the rest of your life. Settled for an ND2 MX-5 that I throw around corners now. It means I have to have a "normal" car as a daily (as the MX-5 isn't that practical) but it also means I can have fun without getting pulled up by the gestapo

tw_wankette 1y ago
Am I reading this right? 130 km/h is ~ 80 mph. In the US, doing 80 in a 70-zone doesn't upset most police officers.
- shirro 1y ago
  Australia's road laws tend to be strictly applied. Large fines and demerit points that can lead to loss of licence. We also have random breath tests. We have much lower road fatalities than the USA per 100,000 people and per billion km traveled though the rates in remote areas are considerably higher.
- quicklime 1y ago
  I'm not the person you replied to, but in a 110 km/h (70 mph) zone you'd get away with just a fine in Australia if caught/pulled over. To lose your license for six months, you'd need to be doing 130+ km/h in an 80 km/h (50 mph) zone.
  - flatline-84 1y ago
    No, loss of license is 20-24km/h over the speed limit in a 110km/h zone (our fastest roads iirc). So 130 is sayonara license. For every other road, 25km/h+ is instant loss of license. This is for Vic btw https://online.fines.vic.gov.au/Your-options/Fine-amounts-and-demerit-points https://online.fines.vic.gov.au/Your-options/Fine-amounts-an...

burnt-resistor 1y ago

You can't buy cool new off a parking lot, but marketing has convinced masses as such. I'd rather have an EV conversion vintage VW Westy, Defender 110, Citroën DS, or Ferrari 250 GT California, or a fuggly Thing, Edsel, or Lada.

platevoltage 1y ago
I want to do an EV conversion to my 86 Mercedes once that becomes something affordable to pull off.
- burnt-resistor 1y ago
  It's affordable now using reclaimed Tesla parts. Here's one vendor: https://www.evwest.com/ https://www.evwest.com/ I really want to ditch the 1.9L H4 Digijet in my '85 Westfalia. It's a total PITA (direct fuel injection and a distributor) but I'm not keen on dropping in a GoWesty or "Subagon" ICE motor when EV is the way to go.
  - BizarroLand 1y ago
    I have considered doing a swap on my Jeep CJ7, but the costs are just a touch out of reach still. I have a friend who does the copart thing, maybe I'll have him keep an eye out for a cheap wrecked Tesla
  - platevoltage 1y ago
    oh god is that one of those "wasserboxers". I hear those are troublesome to say the least which is why they often get replaced with Subaru Engines. I'd trust my weak ass diesel engine to drive me to hell and back, but I know that won't last.
jedberg 1y ago
> Ferrari 250 GT California doing an EV conversion on a body kit is my dream car. Although I like your style of doing a Thing or an Edsel! You'd miss out on the unique gear pattern on the Thing haha.

a_vanderbilt 1y ago

Given the advancements of EVs, the death of the muscle car was inevitable. They are almost universally faster, more performant, more efficient, and more "cool" in their designs. Do gear heads dislike them? Sure, but they aren't going to be the market forever. As energy costs rise, natural market forces will shift the demands of the buyer.

jgalt212 1y ago
> As energy costs rise, That's a big if. And even more so if everyone moves to EVs, then gas demand goes down and it ICEs become even cheaper to run. Ultimately, we need a carbon tax and no more EV credits. What did EV credits do for us? It created Elon.
- platevoltage 1y ago
  There was probably a time when vacuum tubes were extremely cheap for audio enthusiasts that kept their tube amps as the world was transitioning into solid state electronics. That did not last, and I'm talking about before trade with Russia was basically halted.
platevoltage 1y ago
It doesn't help that we have a bunch of people who drive crossovers with zero character, can't point to a spark plug on their engine, but are also somehow so upset about the internal combustion engine being replaced that they fighting EV adoption with everything they have. It's almost like they're told what to think.

dartharva 1y ago

http://archive.today/sDCzk http://archive.today/sDCzk

thunderbong 1y ago

https://archive.is/sDCzk https://archive.is/sDCzk

osullivj 1y ago

The sound a crossplane V8 makes is especially delightful due to the [necessarily] asymmetric firing order. Crossplanes fire every 90 degrees, flatplanes every 180. Flatplanes produce a metallic yowl, crossplanes a fruity burble. Beats and timing are hardwired into human psychoacoustics somehow. Beats are counts without explicit numerals. The idea of mathematical aesthetic standards are appealing cf golden ratio. Crossplane firing asymmetry tickles my aesthetic fancy somehow via the Beats. So my overpowered Merc V8 is music to my ears!

Animats 1y ago

Classic muscle cars are obsolete. Most cars today have 0-60 times a 1970s Dodge Challenger could only dream of.[1] Plus, they can now go around corners. Here's an old movie: "Hot Rod Girl" (1956) [2] The opening scenes are of a real drag strip in Southern California. Technical advice from the San Fernando Drag Strip and the National Hot Rod Association. Accelerations are so low that those things would be obstructing traffic on a freeway onramp today. [1] https://www.0-60specs.com/dodge/challenger-0-60-times https://www.0-60specs.com/dodge/challenger-0-60-times [2] https://archive.org/details/hot_rod_girl_1956 https://archive.org/details/hot_rod_girl_1956

CamperBob2 1y ago
Dig those Dekatrons!
downrightmike 1y ago
You can still have one today, but its a Sunday driver for sure
dingaling 1y ago
Acceleration times say nothing about the character of a car. Anyone can launch a Model S or Taycan at insane accelerations just by pushing a pedal and letting the computer sort things out. Trying to do so in a 1970s Camaro or a 1980s Sierra XR4 requires skill and practice whilst listening to the howl of the engine, feeling the texture of the road through the steering and sensing the suspension loading-up. All of that has been lost. Driving has been reduced to an ordeal to be ensured with as little interaction with the vehicle as possible.
- lagniappe 1y ago
  There's just something spiritual about the rumble and cadence of a cammed muscle car..
  - BoredPositron 1y ago
    There is something "spiritual" about a dial up modem handshake as well...

jillesvangurp 1y ago

I got upgraded once to a yellow mustang in San Francisco. I admit, I wasn't unhappy about that. I reserved the economy car, I ended up driving around the valley in a yellow mustang. With a big smile on my face. But it wasn't necessarily a great car. It had a lot of condensation on the inside of the car in the morning. I've never seen that in any other car. My suitcase barely fit in the back. Etc. A lot of form over function in that car. I don't own a car. In fact, I've never owned one. I just rent cars when I need them, which isn't all that often these days. I live in Berlin which is a big city that wile car friendly (by European standards) is a bit of a PITA to get around in by car. And there's public transport. And it takes about fifty minutes to even leave the city in a car because you are stuck in stop start traffic. But if I ever move out, I might need a car. If I ever buy a car, it will be electric. ICE cars are relics of the past. That mustang makes pleasing vroom vroom noises (and they are very pleasing) but that's about it. That's what they are optimized for. Even a modest EV has more torque (the whole point of a muscle car), better handling, etc. And they are just a lot more practical. EV performance breaks the illusion that a muscle car is, well, a muscle car. As for EVs being boring. Many of them are. Especially those in the US because it's currently cut off from the rest of the world and not exactly state of the art at this point. If you want exciting EVs to lust after, go to China. They have them in every shape and size. The new xpeng looks great, there's the huawei car, the BYD u7 and u9. And some of those are quite affordable (in China). They are unobtainium elsewhere of course, which adds to their desirability. I don't speak from experience of course, but I do watch a lot of EV reviews. There's this myth that EVs can't be fun. They can be. It's not about the noise but it is about the highly tunable driving experience, ridiculous torque, etc. What works for muscle cars (big engine, light weight car) also works for EVs. Some of the more affordable fun options are smaller, lighter cars. Even retro conversions of classic sports cars can be a lot of fun apparently. And some of those end up being lighter after their conversion and handle better than the original. And I bet there are a few classic muscle car conversions. Are they still fun if you take away the vroom vroom noise but otherwise increase all the performance metrics? I don't know. It probably still is quite a lot of fun to drive one.

flomo 1y ago
Just fyi, the Mustang was originally marketed as more of a young woman's car, and only certain models are considered to be "musclemen" cars. Rental agencies stock these because they are fun for tourists, so glad you enjoyed it. (SF Bay has a greenbelt, so recommend to all driving the 1 or 35 Skyline to Santa Cruz.)

chrismatheson 1y ago

Not sure I agree with the premise. New cars are being made. Sure this might kinda suck. But most of the enthusiast are driving and loving cars from the 1970's that have been out of production for decades right? Saying EV's kill muscle cars is like saying Cars killed of horse riding. Sure, there are less breeders for day-to-day travelling requirement style stuff, but the hobbyists keep everything going, and in some ways I would imagine it will bring round a golden era where these things aren't required to be useful as day-to-day options and can just be for fun

smileysteve 1y ago

I disagree with the article substantially; the truth is that Dodge is a dying brand, and the charger and challenger were never practical muscle cars - mostly because Dodge is less part of any racing series. The Ford Mustang is having a resurgence in actually being a sports car, because Ford is investing in Lemans and Imsa. Honda, Toyota, Cadillac, Ford are the major performance cars these days... And Hyundai has a much bigger investment than Dodge. The consolidation of Mercedes, VW, Porsche, and Audi is an interesting challenge to the segment; Bmw and Mazda are also in the game.

cmxch 1y ago

Get rid of CARB and CAFE, then see if that still holds.