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Meaning to use your device you need to have a contractual relationship with a foreign (unless you are in the US) third party that decides what you can or cannot

Meaning to use your device you need to have a contractual relationship with a foreign (unless you are in the US) third party that decides what you can or cannot do with it. Plus using GrapheneOS is less of an option every day, since banks and other "regulated" sectors use Google Play Protect and similar DRMs to prevent you from connecting from whatever device you want. Client-side "trust" means the provider owning the device, not the user. Android shouldn't be considered Open Source anymore, since source code is published in batches and only part of the system is open, with more and more apps going behind the Google ecosystem itself. Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS, whether it comes from China getting fed up with the US and Google's shenanigans (Huawei has HarmonyOS but it's not open) or some "GNU/Linux" touch version that has a serious ecosystem. Especially when more and more apps and services are "mobile-first" or "mobile-only" like banking.

sorrythanks 1y ago
Wouldn't a third large phone os have the same problems as GrapheneOS?
markus_zhang 1y ago
Everything coming from China is going to be closed source as well, and it's going to be pretty hard for banks to onboard themselves on open source solutions. I think the ultimate solution is: two phones, one shitty one just for banking/trading/whatever, which only stays at home most of the time, and one Linux phone that we more or less own, for calls/texts/web browsing, which stays with us.
- Aperocky 1y ago
  It only matters if you treat phones as a development environment. It's tempting to have full control over everything OSS style, but the reality is you can only tenably have that for very specific parts of life.
  - skeezyboy 1y ago
    i wanted my phone to be more than just a kiosk though. thank fuck desktop never ended up in this mess
    - const_cast 1y ago
      The irony is that our phones are unbelievably powerful and run laps around computers from just 5-10 years ago, but then we use them as locked-down glorified web views and advertisement deliverers. Or, as you say, kiosks.
      - goodpoint 1y ago
        advertisement deliverers and massive surveillance devices
      - geysersam 1y ago
        Not to mention all the functionality, sensors, etc that our laptops have never had.
  - OkayPhysicist 1y ago
    Why? I have the freedom to fix or modify most things I own. What makes phones so special that it justifies licking the boot of some techbro billionaires?
pimterry 1y ago
I think Play Integrity is the fundamental issue here, and needs to go. That's the crux of the issue. Allowing apps to say "we only run on Google's officially certified unmodified Android devices" and tightly restricting which devices are certified is the part that makes changes like this deeply problematic. Without that, non-Google Android versions are on a fair playing field; if you don't like their rules, you can install Graphene or other alternatives with no downside. With Play Integrity & attestation though you're always living with the risk of being cut off from some essential app (like your bank) that suddenly becomes "Google-Android-Only". If Play Integrity went away, I'd be much more OK with Google adding restrictions like this - opt in if you like, use alternatives if you don't, and let's see what the market actually wants.
- avhception 1y ago
  Banks seem to actually "want" Play Integrity. At least they act like it. I bet they would like for normal online banking on user-controlled devices to completely go away.
  - IshKebab 1y ago
    Only because it's there. I don't think the would demand it if it wasn't offered, but once it's there imagine being in a bank and saying to management "it recommend we don't enable this security feature that works on 99.99999% of phones".
    - mhast 1y ago
      As someone who used to work for a bank building applications I would say no. This is definitely a feature companies and organizations like banks would request if it wasn't available. There are a lot of scams targeting vulnerable people and these days attacking the phone is a very "easy" way of doing this. Now perhaps there is a more forgiving way of implementing it though. So your phone can switch between trusted and "open" mode. But realistically I don't think the demand is big enough for that to actually matter.
      - 1y ago
gonzalohm 1y ago
What's even the point of all the bullshit with Google play protect if in the end I can access my bank from a web browser. That stupidity is protecting no one
- close04 1y ago
  > access my bank from a web browser Unless you get SMS or some normal TOTP app as 2FA, using the web page usually requires the bank's proprietary app to authorize. So you circle back to the the same issue.
  - ktosobcy 1y ago
    this should be banned…
- bakugo 1y ago
  > in the end I can access my bank from a web browser. If your bank allows you to access all features from a browser, consider yourself lucky. Mine requires the app to authorize any online transaction.
  - niutech 1y ago
    Here in Poland most banks are usable via web browser + SMS for auth.
    - Mindwipe 1y ago
      That's already pretty rare internationally and the odds of it still being the case in five years are zero.
    - greenavocado 1y ago
      Poland also has the most competitive banking system in the entire Western sphere of influence. You can't compare it to the extremely oligarchic banking system in the United States.
    - 1y ago
dariosalvi78 1y ago
I think that the answer are vendor-independent standards. The main issue being solved here is that security relies heavily on those actors like Google and Apple. Banks, companies etc. have high security requirements (rightly so) and basically need to tick boxes. So if the only way to obtain, say, MFA, is through something only Goole/Apple provides, they will require Google or Apple devices. If we had reasonable standards alternatives can become a reality.
- Mindwipe 1y ago
  That's not really going to fix anything here. The reason a big company can do this is because they can absorb big liability risk and insure it appropriately. A standard can't do that.
Ciantic 1y ago
> "GNU/Linux" touch version that has a serious ecosystem That is a very hard problem, unless someone with serious name recognition like Linus Torvalds starts to lead that kind of effort, or a big company like Microsoft suddenly decides that putting 1 billion towards GNU/Linux would be in their interest. With small efforts, it will remain scattered. Crowdfunding has a lot of power if there is name recognition behind the effort. Star Citizen has already gathered $800 million with mostly enthusiasm and a good start. Who is there to lead the effort for GNU/Linux phone development?
- niutech 1y ago
  There were crowdfunding efforts like: Purism Librem, Liberux NEXX, /e/ foundation, eelo, Ubuntu Edge, Jolla phone. But none were really successful. The closest was probably Mozilla with Firefox OS, now Kai OS. I still own an Alcatel OT Fire phone, it's HTML5 all the way! But I think Sailfish OS has a mature ecosystem, they are well recognized in the EU and based on GNU/Linux. I use it daily, after moving from UBports, and it serves me well. Hopefully SfOS gains more popularity.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    > But none were really successful. By which criterion? I'm happily using Librem 5 as a daily driver; wrote this reply from it.
    - niutech 1y ago
      By general adoption. It's great that Librem serves you well, just like SfOS for me, but sadly we're a tiny minority. I think KaiOS has the third place in popularity.
      - fsflover 1y ago
        GNU/Linux is also not successful by such definition. It doesn't make it worse than Windows.
niutech 1y ago
OpenHarmony is open source. There are also: Ubuntu Touch and Sailfish OS being developed. Actually I am writing this from Sailfish OS. I can login to my bank using a web browser here in the EU. I have Telegram, Signal clients, maps, sideloaded packages, full terminal - I fully control the phone, in contrast to Android. I don't own and don't need Android phone at all. So definitely more people should usealternatives to closed Android/iOS.
- jones89176 1y ago
  Ah yes, sailfish is actually pretty usable. (Unlike Ubuntu Touch, tbh). I've used it in the past on my Nexus5 for some years. However, they are still not 100% open source and they're too much into the AI-Hype as of recently (Mind2). Also, I'd like to have more official ports. It's such a hassle to be dependent on that one guy who maintains that port for your device...
fooqux 1y ago
> Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS It's been that time for years. But it's easier said than done. The closest we've currently got are the various phone-targeted Linux distros out there. But they're not quite ready for serious usage for me; at least not on the Pinephone. Still, that's where to put your time & money if you're serious about wanting a change.
- CivBase 1y ago
  Is Pinephone still going? I was excited for it a few years ago, but I checked in recently and a lot of people are calling it dead. They discontinued to "pro" model and it doesn't sound like the software has much active development going on.
  - fooqux 1y ago
    Eh, that's a multi-faceted question. I personally am tired of Pine. They've made some questionable calls over the past couple years and their "make open hardware with almost nothing working software-wise and see what the community does" business plan has started feeling exploitative to me. PPpro was mismanaged especially badly. Nothing against the amazing community- it's just there were some hardware/firmware decisions by pine that made it especially hard to develop for. Meanwhile, the non-pro version is handicapped by a very slow processor. There's still some development happening, and the window managers like KDE are still improving stuff on the front end. But you're right, it has slowed down. That all said, this is still the only non-Google/Apple device you can get in the USA that actually kinda works. I used both the non-pro and pro versions for a few months a couple years ago as my daily driver. I could make calls, send texts, connect to matrix, etc. I wouldn't claim that "it just worked" but it did work.
    - niutech 1y ago
      You can have Volla phone with Ubuntu Touch, Jolla C2 or Sony Xperia with Sailfish OS worldwide.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
everdrive 1y ago
We're long, long overdue for a 3rd phone OS option. The bank thing has me wondering. Maybe getting a nice, local branch is one of the next sane privacy steps if it lets me escape this phone.
rollcat 1y ago
> Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS [...]. Apple and Google conspired to never allow that to happen. They've pushed Microsoft out of that sector. Microsoft! Name a bigger challenger.
- amelius 1y ago
  That was before AI coding assistants.
  - rollcat 1y ago
    A language model will create the market force to displace an oligopoly in the most influential sector of our society? Hedge your bets.
  - fennecfoxy 1y ago
    Lmao
  - parineum 1y ago
    Considering that Google and Apple can use them too, tt's unclear to me whether you think AI coding assistants will make it easier or harder for a third competitor to enter the field.
- blinding-streak 1y ago
  Microsoft pushed itself out of the sector by having a lousy mobile platform.
  - 0xffff2 1y ago
    Microsoft had a phenomenal mobile platform. The only problem they had was that they failed to convince anyone to build apps for it.
    - devmor 1y ago
      > Microsoft had a phenomenal mobile platform. I went through 3 generations of Windows Phone devices for work. The only thing phenomenal about them was the Zune-style UI. They were buggy and unreliable, even for the few apps they had.
giancarlostoro 1y ago
> Android shouldn't be considered Open Source anymore That idea died for me long ago, I had used Android since 2009 till 2020. I gave up on the dream of a Linux phone. Ubuntu had a nice sleek Phone UI they were working on. The issue is if nobody builds the phones and no carrier cares, nobody will pick it up. You need to push yourself into the market. Microsoft could fill this weird gap if they wanted to the key things would be they would have to truly open source the OS. I could see Amazon trying again, but they'd need to invest a lot as well. It's an uphill battle needing a serious flagship phone. Your other problem is most apps need to be migrated.
- acureau 1y ago
  Given the state of the Kindle and Fire TV interfaces, I hope Amazon keeps far away.
  - giancarlostoro 1y ago
    I would strongly argue that they would have to start over completely.
- sgc 1y ago
  Amazon was hopeless even with the apps, because they had their hooks into things even worse than google. They are shameless. Most other tech companies large enough to even try would be as bad or worse. All that type of money went to llms, who is going to spend that on a phone os now? Not who should, but who actually would? They gave up on browsers, they gave up on mobile oses. There is a real risk that the next step is the US gov takes X% of google instead of enforcing antitrust in a year or two. Linux phones will never take off because banking and media/drm apps, and by extension social media apps, will just boycott them and kill it off. The tone has been set, this comment applies to any major player trying to break into the mobile market moving forward. This is honestly very bleak news.
  - giancarlostoro 1y ago
    Yeah, I'm disappointed in their efforts. I do like the Kindle tablet for my preschooler because its cheap and gets the job done, though we limit her screen time. I'm just name dropping from the perspective of a big org that could fund such a thing correctly, but they would need to start over IMHO. I'm not sure of another big player who could invest billions into such an endeavour.
nick486 1y ago
realistically, the end point for moderately tech savvy folks is going to a be two-device setup. one cheap phone for basic communication , all the corpo stuff like banking and shirt-and-tie social media + a wifi hotspot. then a second "practical use" device that uses the hotspot, that you fully control and do your tinkering with. edit: coming to think of it, teaching people to have a device for the "clean stuff" and separate one for the "stupid stuff" could even turn out to be a benefit.
- willjp 1y ago
  This is really smart. It’s low friction. It’s a drag to need two devices, but it is a low compromise bridge to building up something like a pinephone/pinebook’s ecosystem without needing to keep swapping your sim card.
  - nick486 1y ago
    its how most home networks already work, when you think of it. you have a small locked down isp-provided technically-a-computer, that manages your connection, and behind that, you have all your own stuff on your home network. if anything, it would be mobile computing "pulling the modem out of the computer", like home desktops did in the 90s. I probably still have that 14.4k pcmcia modem card laying around somewhere...
- Y_Y 1y ago
  This is already happening. It would be nice to have a purpose-built "clean"/”lame" device that not only did networking for you, but let you run whatever super special shit that garbage banking app needs attestation for while serving it over vnc or similar to your "dirty"/"cool" device. Then the lame device could be quite small, maybe even stuck on to the cool device as a dongle something.
  - sheep-a 1y ago
    Could the lame device be integrated or even better virtualised on the cool device?
  - 1y ago
0x445442 1y ago
We used to have a very nice option called Blackberry. Oh how I miss those phones.
danaris 1y ago
Not merely a foreign third party: one operating fairly cozily within a country with a hostile and erratic government. If Trump ordered Google, tomorrow, to put some egregious measure in place in Android (or Chrome, or Google Search), I, personally, would not want to bet that they would refuse him. And frankly, I don't know that I can even imagine the kinds of things he might try to get them to do. We absolutely need better competition in smartphone OSes—we need it across the board in tech, really, from a wide array of countries.
ktosobcy 1y ago
This is the problem - many apps refusing to run on non-blesses platform. Years ago I loved tinkering with the devices but then I wasn't able to use my bank and it was getting more and more annoying so at one point I just stopped... The biggest problem are: 1) lack of drivers (so creating custom roms/OS for the devices is problematic), 2) locked bootloaders and 3) many apps requiring PlayServices and other stuff (mostly banks). There is postmarketOS, it looks awesome but - device support is very lacking and there is no way to have bank and PopularApps (whatsapp/instagram/etc) running on it so it's popularity is microscopic… Maybe another European Citizen Initiative to force makers to provide those things (bootloader and drivers)?
- hilbert42 1y ago
  "Years ago I loved tinkering with the devices but then I wasn't able to use my bank and it was getting more and more annoying so at one point I just stopped..." Until now I've steadfastly refused to use banking on my smartphones because of these problems (and I usually use rooted phones). The trouble is it's becoming more and more difficult to avoid phone payments/banking. My solution is to get a small phone specifically dedicated for the purpose and use it for no other purpose (it's a pain but the best compromise). That way I don't have to worry about my main smartphone. Of course, the best solution would be for governments to regulate for banks to accept multiple access/payment system of which there are a number. Standardized and regulated protocols would solve many of these problems but that's a too bigger subject to address here.
  - devmor 1y ago
    > My solution is to get a small phone specifically dedicated for the purpose and use it for no other purpose (it's a pain but the best compromise). That way I don't have to worry about my main smartphone. This has been my solution as well and I can't help but wonder, given the recent push for digital ID, insurance, etc. if we will all eventually be carrying a separate data-only device for digital security/attestation purposes.
    - ddingus 1y ago
FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
Tizen already exists...where phone OS' fall down is that ALL of the cellular modems are extremely patent encumbered (althogh Hauwei has a large portion of the 5G ones) and there doesn't exist an open specification let alone open implementation of their interfaces.
Cthulhu_ 1y ago
> a contractual relationship with a foreign (unless you are in the US) third party that decides what you can or cannot do with it. I see where you're coming from, but companies like Google have local legal representation (e.g. in Ireland for the EU), and have to operate under EU rules if they want to do business here (just like how a EU business has to operate under US rules). If the EU says that you should be allowed to do your own thing - and they have - then Google can either comply or leave. Don't attribute more power to companies than they have - they want you to believe they can get away with this, but don't echo their rhetoric.
- baxuz 1y ago
  Ok, how do I as a developer from Croatia get in touch with a legal representative from Google? And I don't mean 5 layers of indirection through AI chatbots and chatbots, forms and canned responses?
  - 15155 1y ago
    https://support.google.com/faqs/answer/6151275 https://support.google.com/faqs/answer/6151275
  - immibis 1y ago
    You don't. You'd have to sue them.
  - OskarS 1y ago
    As a single developer, you have very little weight against Google. The same is true of a single developer in the US. What does have weight is the European Union, which Croatia is a member of. If the EU parliament makes a law that Google is not allowed to have these kinds of rules and do business in the EU, then Google will listen. Given the horrible state of the US government, the EU is just about the only force left in the world able and willing to stand up against these tech giants in a way that forces them to pay attention and act responsibly.
    - Arch-TK 1y ago
miohtama 1y ago
The EU is planning to make Play Store de facto mandatory, so no more Graphene in the EU https://www.androidheadlines.com/2025/07/eu-age-verification-app-to-ban-android-apps-not-licensed-by-google.html https://www.androidheadlines.com/2025/07/eu-age-verification...
- palata 1y ago
  Graphene can run the Play Store, can't it?
- immibis 1y ago
  Only if you want to use the age verification app. The EU has different parts. This probably violates a constraint imposed by a different part, which the part pushing this hasn't noticed yet.
Justsignedup 1y ago
> Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS, whether it comes from China getting fed up with the US and Google's shenanigans (Huawei has HarmonyOS but it's not open) or some "GNU/Linux" touch version that has a serious ecosystem. Especially when more and more apps and services are "mobile-first" or "mobile-only" like banking. This makes me laugh. Not at you, but at the cycle. This was the convo years ago when this was possible, but getting consumers to trust a 3rd party like PalmOS (which was actually pretty darn good compared to android) is practically not possible.
- eloisant 1y ago
  It's not about consumer trust, it's the chicken-and-egg problems of users and app devs. App devs only care about platforms with enough users, users only care about platform with enough 3rd party devs support.
fennecfoxy 1y ago
I somewhat agree with the protected systems part though. For example, handling payments. Now iOS and Android could both have 0-days that allow fraudulent payments to be made for all I know but there's a certain degree of trust there with 2 large companies. But then again we still use visa/mastercard duopoly that allows you to make payments so long as your have their card number. And then again x2; nothing will ever change, we live in a corporate hellscape where men in suits & ties make all the decisions, get themselves wealthier and the general public are too apathetic to band together on anything because they'd rather foot shoot than have someone not from their tribe receive a single cookie crumb.
stronglikedan 1y ago
I wouldn't use a bank that made it difficult for me to access my account. I don't know why most people do. I know why a few need to, but not most. There's a lot of unnecessary bedmaking going on in tech.
- immibis 1y ago
  Because it's the only bank that doesn't require a mailing address and I don't have a mailing address.
  - majorchord 1y ago
    How does one not have a mailing address in $current_year?
    - rustyminnow 1y ago
      If one is a "digital nomad"
      - ranger_danger 1y ago
        Maybe, although there are services that will accept your mail and then scan/email it to you. But I believe OP has stated that they live in Germany full-time.
        immibis 1y ago
        Despite the German government's insistence that every person has a single permanent address, it continues to not be true in the real world.
        rustyminnow 1y ago
        I don't keep tabs on OP; I just provide hypothetical answers to literal interpretations of rhetorical questions.
        gck1 1y ago
palata 1y ago
> Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS I don't think that the problem is the OS. The problem is access to the hardware. Hardware manufacturers can decide to prevent you from installing an alternative OS on your hardware. If the law made it mandatory to allow this, it would be a lot easier to go with alternative OSes like GrapheneOS. > Huawei has HarmonyOS but it's not open I was thinking at some point that they would go with AOSP and their own Huawei Services on top. Could have been fun. Also I wonder why they don't just support GrapheneOS as an alternative OS.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
archvile 1y ago
Less and less of AOSP is being updated also, as Google rolls most of its new features and updates behind the Play Services system. Install Graphene and you will see what I am talking about - the SMS app for example hasn't been updated in probably a decade and looks and functions like it did back in Android 4 (KitKat). Same with the other built-in apps. While I used Graphene myself for a solid 6 months, the features you have to give up on using or find some obtuse workaround for aren't appealing to the "normies" who just want their phone to do what they want, no matter the unseen ethical cost (in this case, sacrificing the ability to freely install 3rd party apps). Someone on another forum said it very well - people like "us" were Google's foot in the door, now along with Apple they have such a stranglehold on the mobile OS space that a 3rd viable and comparable contestant becomes less and less likely by the day. Throw in how Google starting with Android 16 is not releasing updated drivers with AOSP and Graphene probably doesn't have much life left in it, either.
- palata 1y ago
  > While I used Graphene myself for a solid 6 months, the features you have to give up on using or find some obtuse workaround for aren't appealing to the "normies" who just want their phone to do what they want Did you use GrapheneOS with the Play Services? Sounds like you didn't. Of course if you don't use the Play Services, you lose... the Play Services. But GrapheneOS allows you to run them in the sandbox. > Throw in how Google starting with Android 16 is not releasing updated drivers with AOSP and Graphene probably doesn't have much life left in it, either. This sounds incorrect. Google decided to stop sending the device tree of the Pixel devices in AOSP. And GrapheneOS is still fine, though it will take more effort because they won't get the device tree from Google.
FollowingTheDao 1y ago
These control freaks will not control me. Banking on GrapheneOS? The web app works fine. More and more people are starting to see how you really own nothing anymore.
kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
LineageOS still exists.
KETpXDDzR 1y ago
It seems most banking apps do work: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...
Discordian93 1y ago
I wish Firefox OS had succeeded, my first ever app was for it, it was all so much simpler and so much more free than the locked down systems of both major mobile OSes.
Magnusmaster 1y ago
There will never be a third large OS unless Google Play Integrity is legislated out of existence. And it looks like governments like Google Play Integrity so that won't happen
2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
Other than depositing checks, I've always thought that phone bank apps are overrated. Banking is too serious for a phone- I'd rather do it on a real computer. I could fairly easily give up banking apps entirely.
- NoGravitas 1y ago
  In my case, the website is equal or superior to the app in every aspect except one: you cannot deposit scanned paper checks via the website, only via the app.
- Aspos 1y ago
  Web channel traffic is typically a tiny fraction of mobile traffic for banks. In some banks its like single digit share.
BobaFloutist 1y ago
> banks and other "regulated" sectors use Google Play Protect and similar DRMs to prevent you from connecting from whatever device you want. This totally sucks but is there anything preventing you from using your bank's website in-browser in your phone, other than the terrible UI, tiny text, and inability to select the correct checkbox?
- frm88 1y ago
  Yes. The 2FA via either biometrics or some other means requires us to have the bank's own app - even in small local branches - where said app is only available through one of the app stores.
john01dav 1y ago
> or some "GNU/Linux" touch version that has a serious ecosystem How could this realistically happen? Developers of popular apps adore the control and illegitimate de-facto ownership that client side "trust" gives them, so they'll refuse to make apps for that platform. They'll also use said client side "trust" to block them. Thus, it can't reach critical mass to force adoption by these developers.
Lu2025 1y ago
> the provider owning the device, not the user That's been the case since they got rid of removable batteries. You don't own a device you can't reliably turn off.
mathfailure 1y ago
It doesn't even matter if it's foreign or not, it's a matter of who owns the thing: you buy a smartphone or you buy a service that allows you some use of said smartphone? Fuck services.
yibg 1y ago
Problem is 99.99% of the population probably doesn't care (or even know about the issue). Companies respond to the market. If there is no demand or pressure for something more open, they won't make it.
1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
Alas, no distinction is made between (a) a computer owner that wants to write software to run on their computer versus (b) an "app developer" who wants to write "mobile apps" and distribute them to others for financial gain The computer owner in (a) is not creating "malware". Any arguments that "verification" is for the protection of users (not commercial benefit of Google) are inapplicable in (a). Unlike the software in (b) the software in (a) only runs on the computer owner's computer, not anyone else's computer. There is no need in the case of (a) for Google to know about what software is running on the computer owner's computer.^1 Surely Google would agree there is no need, i.e., no right, for a computer owner seeking "verification" to know what software is running on Google's computers or the identities of Google employees. 1. None that outweighs the owner's right to privacy. Microsoft, Apple and Google all use _default_ telemetry https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://github.com/cedws/apple-telemetry https://github.com/cedws/apple-telemetry https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/437068/eliminating-all-apple-telemetry https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/437068/eliminating... https://therecord.media/google-collects-20-times-more-telemetry-from-android-devices-than-apple-from-ios https://therecord.media/google-collects-20-times-more-teleme...
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
  "Alas, no distinction is made between (a) a computer owner that wants to write software to run on their computer versus (b) an "app developer" who wants to write "mobile apps" and distribute then to others for financial gain." I could be wrong: https://developer.android.com/developer-verification https://developer.android.com/developer-verification "For student and hobbyist developers We're committed to keeping Android an open platform for you to learn, experiment, and build for fun. We recognize that your needs are different from commercial developers, so we're working on a separate type of Android Developer Console account for you. We'll share more information in the coming months." Will "verification" also be required for "hobbyists", otherwise known as computer owners, or "ad targets" in Google's framing of the www. Who knows Putting restrictions on distributing bad software ("malware") to others is one thing. It makes sense, But putting restrictions on computer owners ("hobbyists") who write, compile and run software on their own computers is another thing entirely

sorrythanks 1y ago

Wouldn't a third large phone os have the same problems as GrapheneOS?

markus_zhang 1y ago

Everything coming from China is going to be closed source as well, and it's going to be pretty hard for banks to onboard themselves on open source solutions. I think the ultimate solution is: two phones, one shitty one just for banking/trading/whatever, which only stays at home most of the time, and one Linux phone that we more or less own, for calls/texts/web browsing, which stays with us.

Aperocky 1y ago
It only matters if you treat phones as a development environment. It's tempting to have full control over everything OSS style, but the reality is you can only tenably have that for very specific parts of life.
- skeezyboy 1y ago
  i wanted my phone to be more than just a kiosk though. thank fuck desktop never ended up in this mess
  - const_cast 1y ago
    The irony is that our phones are unbelievably powerful and run laps around computers from just 5-10 years ago, but then we use them as locked-down glorified web views and advertisement deliverers. Or, as you say, kiosks.
    - goodpoint 1y ago
      advertisement deliverers and massive surveillance devices
    - geysersam 1y ago
      Not to mention all the functionality, sensors, etc that our laptops have never had.
- OkayPhysicist 1y ago
  Why? I have the freedom to fix or modify most things I own. What makes phones so special that it justifies licking the boot of some techbro billionaires?

pimterry 1y ago

I think Play Integrity is the fundamental issue here, and needs to go. That's the crux of the issue. Allowing apps to say "we only run on Google's officially certified unmodified Android devices" and tightly restricting which devices are certified is the part that makes changes like this deeply problematic. Without that, non-Google Android versions are on a fair playing field; if you don't like their rules, you can install Graphene or other alternatives with no downside. With Play Integrity & attestation though you're always living with the risk of being cut off from some essential app (like your bank) that suddenly becomes "Google-Android-Only". If Play Integrity went away, I'd be much more OK with Google adding restrictions like this - opt in if you like, use alternatives if you don't, and let's see what the market actually wants.

avhception 1y ago
Banks seem to actually "want" Play Integrity. At least they act like it. I bet they would like for normal online banking on user-controlled devices to completely go away.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  Only because it's there. I don't think the would demand it if it wasn't offered, but once it's there imagine being in a bank and saying to management "it recommend we don't enable this security feature that works on 99.99999% of phones".
  - mhast 1y ago
    As someone who used to work for a bank building applications I would say no. This is definitely a feature companies and organizations like banks would request if it wasn't available. There are a lot of scams targeting vulnerable people and these days attacking the phone is a very "easy" way of doing this. Now perhaps there is a more forgiving way of implementing it though. So your phone can switch between trusted and "open" mode. But realistically I don't think the demand is big enough for that to actually matter.
    - 1y ago

gonzalohm 1y ago

What's even the point of all the bullshit with Google play protect if in the end I can access my bank from a web browser. That stupidity is protecting no one

close04 1y ago
> access my bank from a web browser Unless you get SMS or some normal TOTP app as 2FA, using the web page usually requires the bank's proprietary app to authorize. So you circle back to the the same issue.
- ktosobcy 1y ago
  this should be banned…
bakugo 1y ago
> in the end I can access my bank from a web browser. If your bank allows you to access all features from a browser, consider yourself lucky. Mine requires the app to authorize any online transaction.
- niutech 1y ago
  Here in Poland most banks are usable via web browser + SMS for auth.
  - Mindwipe 1y ago
    That's already pretty rare internationally and the odds of it still being the case in five years are zero.
  - greenavocado 1y ago
    Poland also has the most competitive banking system in the entire Western sphere of influence. You can't compare it to the extremely oligarchic banking system in the United States.
  - 1y ago

dariosalvi78 1y ago

I think that the answer are vendor-independent standards. The main issue being solved here is that security relies heavily on those actors like Google and Apple. Banks, companies etc. have high security requirements (rightly so) and basically need to tick boxes. So if the only way to obtain, say, MFA, is through something only Goole/Apple provides, they will require Google or Apple devices. If we had reasonable standards alternatives can become a reality.

Mindwipe 1y ago
That's not really going to fix anything here. The reason a big company can do this is because they can absorb big liability risk and insure it appropriately. A standard can't do that.

Ciantic 1y ago

> "GNU/Linux" touch version that has a serious ecosystem That is a very hard problem, unless someone with serious name recognition like Linus Torvalds starts to lead that kind of effort, or a big company like Microsoft suddenly decides that putting 1 billion towards GNU/Linux would be in their interest. With small efforts, it will remain scattered. Crowdfunding has a lot of power if there is name recognition behind the effort. Star Citizen has already gathered $800 million with mostly enthusiasm and a good start. Who is there to lead the effort for GNU/Linux phone development?

niutech 1y ago
There were crowdfunding efforts like: Purism Librem, Liberux NEXX, /e/ foundation, eelo, Ubuntu Edge, Jolla phone. But none were really successful. The closest was probably Mozilla with Firefox OS, now Kai OS. I still own an Alcatel OT Fire phone, it's HTML5 all the way! But I think Sailfish OS has a mature ecosystem, they are well recognized in the EU and based on GNU/Linux. I use it daily, after moving from UBports, and it serves me well. Hopefully SfOS gains more popularity.
- fsflover 1y ago
  > But none were really successful. By which criterion? I'm happily using Librem 5 as a daily driver; wrote this reply from it.
  - niutech 1y ago
    By general adoption. It's great that Librem serves you well, just like SfOS for me, but sadly we're a tiny minority. I think KaiOS has the third place in popularity.
    - fsflover 1y ago
      GNU/Linux is also not successful by such definition. It doesn't make it worse than Windows.

niutech 1y ago

OpenHarmony is open source. There are also: Ubuntu Touch and Sailfish OS being developed. Actually I am writing this from Sailfish OS. I can login to my bank using a web browser here in the EU. I have Telegram, Signal clients, maps, sideloaded packages, full terminal - I fully control the phone, in contrast to Android. I don't own and don't need Android phone at all. So definitely more people should usealternatives to closed Android/iOS.

jones89176 1y ago
Ah yes, sailfish is actually pretty usable. (Unlike Ubuntu Touch, tbh). I've used it in the past on my Nexus5 for some years. However, they are still not 100% open source and they're too much into the AI-Hype as of recently (Mind2). Also, I'd like to have more official ports. It's such a hassle to be dependent on that one guy who maintains that port for your device...

fooqux 1y ago

> Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS It's been that time for years. But it's easier said than done. The closest we've currently got are the various phone-targeted Linux distros out there. But they're not quite ready for serious usage for me; at least not on the Pinephone. Still, that's where to put your time & money if you're serious about wanting a change.

CivBase 1y ago
Is Pinephone still going? I was excited for it a few years ago, but I checked in recently and a lot of people are calling it dead. They discontinued to "pro" model and it doesn't sound like the software has much active development going on.
- fooqux 1y ago
  Eh, that's a multi-faceted question. I personally am tired of Pine. They've made some questionable calls over the past couple years and their "make open hardware with almost nothing working software-wise and see what the community does" business plan has started feeling exploitative to me. PPpro was mismanaged especially badly. Nothing against the amazing community- it's just there were some hardware/firmware decisions by pine that made it especially hard to develop for. Meanwhile, the non-pro version is handicapped by a very slow processor. There's still some development happening, and the window managers like KDE are still improving stuff on the front end. But you're right, it has slowed down. That all said, this is still the only non-Google/Apple device you can get in the USA that actually kinda works. I used both the non-pro and pro versions for a few months a couple years ago as my daily driver. I could make calls, send texts, connect to matrix, etc. I wouldn't claim that "it just worked" but it did work.
  - niutech 1y ago
    You can have Volla phone with Ubuntu Touch, Jolla C2 or Sony Xperia with Sailfish OS worldwide.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

everdrive 1y ago

We're long, long overdue for a 3rd phone OS option. The bank thing has me wondering. Maybe getting a nice, local branch is one of the next sane privacy steps if it lets me escape this phone.

rollcat 1y ago

> Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS [...]. Apple and Google conspired to never allow that to happen. They've pushed Microsoft out of that sector. Microsoft! Name a bigger challenger.

amelius 1y ago
That was before AI coding assistants.
- rollcat 1y ago
  A language model will create the market force to displace an oligopoly in the most influential sector of our society? Hedge your bets.
- fennecfoxy 1y ago
  Lmao
- parineum 1y ago
  Considering that Google and Apple can use them too, tt's unclear to me whether you think AI coding assistants will make it easier or harder for a third competitor to enter the field.
blinding-streak 1y ago
Microsoft pushed itself out of the sector by having a lousy mobile platform.
- 0xffff2 1y ago
  Microsoft had a phenomenal mobile platform. The only problem they had was that they failed to convince anyone to build apps for it.
  - devmor 1y ago
    > Microsoft had a phenomenal mobile platform. I went through 3 generations of Windows Phone devices for work. The only thing phenomenal about them was the Zune-style UI. They were buggy and unreliable, even for the few apps they had.

giancarlostoro 1y ago

> Android shouldn't be considered Open Source anymore That idea died for me long ago, I had used Android since 2009 till 2020. I gave up on the dream of a Linux phone. Ubuntu had a nice sleek Phone UI they were working on. The issue is if nobody builds the phones and no carrier cares, nobody will pick it up. You need to push yourself into the market. Microsoft could fill this weird gap if they wanted to the key things would be they would have to truly open source the OS. I could see Amazon trying again, but they'd need to invest a lot as well. It's an uphill battle needing a serious flagship phone. Your other problem is most apps need to be migrated.

acureau 1y ago
Given the state of the Kindle and Fire TV interfaces, I hope Amazon keeps far away.
- giancarlostoro 1y ago
  I would strongly argue that they would have to start over completely.
sgc 1y ago
Amazon was hopeless even with the apps, because they had their hooks into things even worse than google. They are shameless. Most other tech companies large enough to even try would be as bad or worse. All that type of money went to llms, who is going to spend that on a phone os now? Not who should, but who actually would? They gave up on browsers, they gave up on mobile oses. There is a real risk that the next step is the US gov takes X% of google instead of enforcing antitrust in a year or two. Linux phones will never take off because banking and media/drm apps, and by extension social media apps, will just boycott them and kill it off. The tone has been set, this comment applies to any major player trying to break into the mobile market moving forward. This is honestly very bleak news.
- giancarlostoro 1y ago
  Yeah, I'm disappointed in their efforts. I do like the Kindle tablet for my preschooler because its cheap and gets the job done, though we limit her screen time. I'm just name dropping from the perspective of a big org that could fund such a thing correctly, but they would need to start over IMHO. I'm not sure of another big player who could invest billions into such an endeavour.

nick486 1y ago

realistically, the end point for moderately tech savvy folks is going to a be two-device setup. one cheap phone for basic communication , all the corpo stuff like banking and shirt-and-tie social media + a wifi hotspot. then a second "practical use" device that uses the hotspot, that you fully control and do your tinkering with. edit: coming to think of it, teaching people to have a device for the "clean stuff" and separate one for the "stupid stuff" could even turn out to be a benefit.

willjp 1y ago
This is really smart. It’s low friction. It’s a drag to need two devices, but it is a low compromise bridge to building up something like a pinephone/pinebook’s ecosystem without needing to keep swapping your sim card.
- nick486 1y ago
  its how most home networks already work, when you think of it. you have a small locked down isp-provided technically-a-computer, that manages your connection, and behind that, you have all your own stuff on your home network. if anything, it would be mobile computing "pulling the modem out of the computer", like home desktops did in the 90s. I probably still have that 14.4k pcmcia modem card laying around somewhere...
Y_Y 1y ago
This is already happening. It would be nice to have a purpose-built "clean"/”lame" device that not only did networking for you, but let you run whatever super special shit that garbage banking app needs attestation for while serving it over vnc or similar to your "dirty"/"cool" device. Then the lame device could be quite small, maybe even stuck on to the cool device as a dongle something.
- sheep-a 1y ago
  Could the lame device be integrated or even better virtualised on the cool device?
- 1y ago

0x445442 1y ago

We used to have a very nice option called Blackberry. Oh how I miss those phones.

danaris 1y ago

Not merely a foreign third party: one operating fairly cozily within a country with a hostile and erratic government. If Trump ordered Google, tomorrow, to put some egregious measure in place in Android (or Chrome, or Google Search), I, personally, would not want to bet that they would refuse him. And frankly, I don't know that I can even imagine the kinds of things he might try to get them to do. We absolutely need better competition in smartphone OSes—we need it across the board in tech, really, from a wide array of countries.

ktosobcy 1y ago

This is the problem - many apps refusing to run on non-blesses platform. Years ago I loved tinkering with the devices but then I wasn't able to use my bank and it was getting more and more annoying so at one point I just stopped... The biggest problem are: 1) lack of drivers (so creating custom roms/OS for the devices is problematic), 2) locked bootloaders and 3) many apps requiring PlayServices and other stuff (mostly banks). There is postmarketOS, it looks awesome but - device support is very lacking and there is no way to have bank and PopularApps (whatsapp/instagram/etc) running on it so it's popularity is microscopic… Maybe another European Citizen Initiative to force makers to provide those things (bootloader and drivers)?

hilbert42 1y ago
"Years ago I loved tinkering with the devices but then I wasn't able to use my bank and it was getting more and more annoying so at one point I just stopped..." Until now I've steadfastly refused to use banking on my smartphones because of these problems (and I usually use rooted phones). The trouble is it's becoming more and more difficult to avoid phone payments/banking. My solution is to get a small phone specifically dedicated for the purpose and use it for no other purpose (it's a pain but the best compromise). That way I don't have to worry about my main smartphone. Of course, the best solution would be for governments to regulate for banks to accept multiple access/payment system of which there are a number. Standardized and regulated protocols would solve many of these problems but that's a too bigger subject to address here.
- devmor 1y ago
  > My solution is to get a small phone specifically dedicated for the purpose and use it for no other purpose (it's a pain but the best compromise). That way I don't have to worry about my main smartphone. This has been my solution as well and I can't help but wonder, given the recent push for digital ID, insurance, etc. if we will all eventually be carrying a separate data-only device for digital security/attestation purposes.
  - ddingus 1y ago

FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago

Tizen already exists...where phone OS' fall down is that ALL of the cellular modems are extremely patent encumbered (althogh Hauwei has a large portion of the 5G ones) and there doesn't exist an open specification let alone open implementation of their interfaces.

Cthulhu_ 1y ago

> a contractual relationship with a foreign (unless you are in the US) third party that decides what you can or cannot do with it. I see where you're coming from, but companies like Google have local legal representation (e.g. in Ireland for the EU), and have to operate under EU rules if they want to do business here (just like how a EU business has to operate under US rules). If the EU says that you should be allowed to do your own thing - and they have - then Google can either comply or leave. Don't attribute more power to companies than they have - they want you to believe they can get away with this, but don't echo their rhetoric.

baxuz 1y ago
Ok, how do I as a developer from Croatia get in touch with a legal representative from Google? And I don't mean 5 layers of indirection through AI chatbots and chatbots, forms and canned responses?
- 15155 1y ago
  https://support.google.com/faqs/answer/6151275 https://support.google.com/faqs/answer/6151275
- immibis 1y ago
  You don't. You'd have to sue them.
- OskarS 1y ago
  As a single developer, you have very little weight against Google. The same is true of a single developer in the US. What does have weight is the European Union, which Croatia is a member of. If the EU parliament makes a law that Google is not allowed to have these kinds of rules and do business in the EU, then Google will listen. Given the horrible state of the US government, the EU is just about the only force left in the world able and willing to stand up against these tech giants in a way that forces them to pay attention and act responsibly.
  - Arch-TK 1y ago

miohtama 1y ago

The EU is planning to make Play Store de facto mandatory, so no more Graphene in the EU https://www.androidheadlines.com/2025/07/eu-age-verification-app-to-ban-android-apps-not-licensed-by-google.html https://www.androidheadlines.com/2025/07/eu-age-verification...

palata 1y ago
Graphene can run the Play Store, can't it?
immibis 1y ago
Only if you want to use the age verification app. The EU has different parts. This probably violates a constraint imposed by a different part, which the part pushing this hasn't noticed yet.

Justsignedup 1y ago

> Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS, whether it comes from China getting fed up with the US and Google's shenanigans (Huawei has HarmonyOS but it's not open) or some "GNU/Linux" touch version that has a serious ecosystem. Especially when more and more apps and services are "mobile-first" or "mobile-only" like banking. This makes me laugh. Not at you, but at the cycle. This was the convo years ago when this was possible, but getting consumers to trust a 3rd party like PalmOS (which was actually pretty darn good compared to android) is practically not possible.

eloisant 1y ago
It's not about consumer trust, it's the chicken-and-egg problems of users and app devs. App devs only care about platforms with enough users, users only care about platform with enough 3rd party devs support.

fennecfoxy 1y ago

I somewhat agree with the protected systems part though. For example, handling payments. Now iOS and Android could both have 0-days that allow fraudulent payments to be made for all I know but there's a certain degree of trust there with 2 large companies. But then again we still use visa/mastercard duopoly that allows you to make payments so long as your have their card number. And then again x2; nothing will ever change, we live in a corporate hellscape where men in suits & ties make all the decisions, get themselves wealthier and the general public are too apathetic to band together on anything because they'd rather foot shoot than have someone not from their tribe receive a single cookie crumb.

stronglikedan 1y ago

I wouldn't use a bank that made it difficult for me to access my account. I don't know why most people do. I know why a few need to, but not most. There's a lot of unnecessary bedmaking going on in tech.

immibis 1y ago
Because it's the only bank that doesn't require a mailing address and I don't have a mailing address.
- majorchord 1y ago
  How does one not have a mailing address in $current_year?
  - rustyminnow 1y ago
    If one is a "digital nomad"
    - ranger_danger 1y ago
      Maybe, although there are services that will accept your mail and then scan/email it to you. But I believe OP has stated that they live in Germany full-time.
      - immibis 1y ago
        Despite the German government's insistence that every person has a single permanent address, it continues to not be true in the real world.
      - rustyminnow 1y ago
        I don't keep tabs on OP; I just provide hypothetical answers to literal interpretations of rhetorical questions.
      - gck1 1y ago

palata 1y ago

> Maybe it's time for a third large phone OS I don't think that the problem is the OS. The problem is access to the hardware. Hardware manufacturers can decide to prevent you from installing an alternative OS on your hardware. If the law made it mandatory to allow this, it would be a lot easier to go with alternative OSes like GrapheneOS. > Huawei has HarmonyOS but it's not open I was thinking at some point that they would go with AOSP and their own Huawei Services on top. Could have been fun. Also I wonder why they don't just support GrapheneOS as an alternative OS.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

archvile 1y ago

Less and less of AOSP is being updated also, as Google rolls most of its new features and updates behind the Play Services system. Install Graphene and you will see what I am talking about - the SMS app for example hasn't been updated in probably a decade and looks and functions like it did back in Android 4 (KitKat). Same with the other built-in apps. While I used Graphene myself for a solid 6 months, the features you have to give up on using or find some obtuse workaround for aren't appealing to the "normies" who just want their phone to do what they want, no matter the unseen ethical cost (in this case, sacrificing the ability to freely install 3rd party apps). Someone on another forum said it very well - people like "us" were Google's foot in the door, now along with Apple they have such a stranglehold on the mobile OS space that a 3rd viable and comparable contestant becomes less and less likely by the day. Throw in how Google starting with Android 16 is not releasing updated drivers with AOSP and Graphene probably doesn't have much life left in it, either.

palata 1y ago
> While I used Graphene myself for a solid 6 months, the features you have to give up on using or find some obtuse workaround for aren't appealing to the "normies" who just want their phone to do what they want Did you use GrapheneOS with the Play Services? Sounds like you didn't. Of course if you don't use the Play Services, you lose... the Play Services. But GrapheneOS allows you to run them in the sandbox. > Throw in how Google starting with Android 16 is not releasing updated drivers with AOSP and Graphene probably doesn't have much life left in it, either. This sounds incorrect. Google decided to stop sending the device tree of the Pixel devices in AOSP. And GrapheneOS is still fine, though it will take more effort because they won't get the device tree from Google.

FollowingTheDao 1y ago

These control freaks will not control me. Banking on GrapheneOS? The web app works fine. More and more people are starting to see how you really own nothing anymore.

kevin_thibedeau 1y ago

LineageOS still exists.

KETpXDDzR 1y ago

It seems most banking apps do work: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

Discordian93 1y ago

I wish Firefox OS had succeeded, my first ever app was for it, it was all so much simpler and so much more free than the locked down systems of both major mobile OSes.

Magnusmaster 1y ago

There will never be a third large OS unless Google Play Integrity is legislated out of existence. And it looks like governments like Google Play Integrity so that won't happen

2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago

Other than depositing checks, I've always thought that phone bank apps are overrated. Banking is too serious for a phone- I'd rather do it on a real computer. I could fairly easily give up banking apps entirely.

NoGravitas 1y ago
In my case, the website is equal or superior to the app in every aspect except one: you cannot deposit scanned paper checks via the website, only via the app.
Aspos 1y ago
Web channel traffic is typically a tiny fraction of mobile traffic for banks. In some banks its like single digit share.

BobaFloutist 1y ago

> banks and other "regulated" sectors use Google Play Protect and similar DRMs to prevent you from connecting from whatever device you want. This totally sucks but is there anything preventing you from using your bank's website in-browser in your phone, other than the terrible UI, tiny text, and inability to select the correct checkbox?

frm88 1y ago
Yes. The 2FA via either biometrics or some other means requires us to have the bank's own app - even in small local branches - where said app is only available through one of the app stores.

john01dav 1y ago

> or some "GNU/Linux" touch version that has a serious ecosystem How could this realistically happen? Developers of popular apps adore the control and illegitimate de-facto ownership that client side "trust" gives them, so they'll refuse to make apps for that platform. They'll also use said client side "trust" to block them. Thus, it can't reach critical mass to force adoption by these developers.

Lu2025 1y ago

> the provider owning the device, not the user That's been the case since they got rid of removable batteries. You don't own a device you can't reliably turn off.

mathfailure 1y ago

It doesn't even matter if it's foreign or not, it's a matter of who owns the thing: you buy a smartphone or you buy a service that allows you some use of said smartphone? Fuck services.

yibg 1y ago

Problem is 99.99% of the population probably doesn't care (or even know about the issue). Companies respond to the market. If there is no demand or pressure for something more open, they won't make it.

1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago

Alas, no distinction is made between (a) a computer owner that wants to write software to run on their computer versus (b) an "app developer" who wants to write "mobile apps" and distribute them to others for financial gain The computer owner in (a) is not creating "malware". Any arguments that "verification" is for the protection of users (not commercial benefit of Google) are inapplicable in (a). Unlike the software in (b) the software in (a) only runs on the computer owner's computer, not anyone else's computer. There is no need in the case of (a) for Google to know about what software is running on the computer owner's computer.^1 Surely Google would agree there is no need, i.e., no right, for a computer owner seeking "verification" to know what software is running on Google's computers or the identities of Google employees. 1. None that outweighs the owner's right to privacy. Microsoft, Apple and Google all use _default_ telemetry https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://github.com/cedws/apple-telemetry https://github.com/cedws/apple-telemetry https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/437068/eliminating-all-apple-telemetry https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/437068/eliminating... https://therecord.media/google-collects-20-times-more-telemetry-from-android-devices-than-apple-from-ios https://therecord.media/google-collects-20-times-more-teleme...

1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
"Alas, no distinction is made between (a) a computer owner that wants to write software to run on their computer versus (b) an "app developer" who wants to write "mobile apps" and distribute then to others for financial gain." I could be wrong: https://developer.android.com/developer-verification https://developer.android.com/developer-verification "For student and hobbyist developers We're committed to keeping Android an open platform for you to learn, experiment, and build for fun. We recognize that your needs are different from commercial developers, so we're working on a separate type of Android Developer Console account for you. We'll share more information in the coming months." Will "verification" also be required for "hobbyists", otherwise known as computer owners, or "ad targets" in Google's framing of the www. Who knows Putting restrictions on distributing bad software ("malware") to others is one thing. It makes sense, But putting restrictions on computer owners ("hobbyists") who write, compile and run software on their own computers is another thing entirely