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Neuralink 'Participant 1' says his life has changed
- TrietNg 1y agoI don't think anyone here should comment about Neuralink when they haven't watched Lex Fridman 8 hours episode with the team. Seriously
- andy_ng 1y agoso true!
- muzylovolexandr 1y ago[dead]
- NitpickLawyer 1y agoThere is a great podcast with the entire team + Noland on yt. It is ~ 8h long, but IMO it's worth the time. You get to hear things from the perspective of the chief brain surgeon, hardware team, software team, and of course Noland himself. I really recommend it, to get a better understanding of what's possible, what they had to do to get there, and how impactful this kind of research is for people with terrible conditions.
- zorkso 1y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbk9BiPhm7o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbk9BiPhm7o
- Veserv 1y agoStill the same depraved head of neurosurgery, Dr. Matthew MacDougall, who said: "If tomorrow laws were changed and the FDA said okay you can do some of this early experimentation in willing human participants that would be a very interesting option I think there would be a lot of people that would step up." [1] That is basically the textbook definition of unethical medical practice, so unquestionably far over the line of acceptable practice that you would have to be willfully ignorant to defend it, and they think it would be exciting if it were not banned. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZGItIAUQmI&t=5239s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZGItIAUQmI&t=5239s
- kridsdale3 1y agoWho are you to decide what is acceptable? This type of moral system is entirely cultural.
- Noumenon72 1y agoThese kind of takes often place a higher value on people's life than they would place on their own. We should let people choose MAID if that's the best outcome for their lives, and we should let them risk their health for science. It's up to them whether they feel they have anything left to lose. This is aside from the harm it does to the rest of us to prevent experimentation by willing participants, such as barring human challenge trials to quickly test Covid vaccines.
- GuinansEyebrows 1y agowell, it may be one thing when we're talking about functional adults deciding for themselves to opt-in to experimental treatment. i would guess that these protections exist to cover a broader group including children or those who are in the care of others and aren't necessarily capable of making their own decisions about experimental treatment... to say nothing of other forms of coercion otherwise-capable adults may face when it comes to stuff like this. it's tricky! and it doesn't seem like there's a one-size-fits-all approach that offers protection for those who need it.
- dvt 1y ago> That is basically the textbook definition of unethical medical practice This is an extremely uncharitable interpretation of what was said. First of all, it's really hard to get malpractice here, as consent is implied (unless you'd think he'd purposefully do a bad or sloppy job). You could say it's irresponsible, and that argument holds more water, but when folks are in these terrible situations (i.e. terminally ill, etc.), a strong argument could also be that it's morally impermissible to disallow them to partake in such experimental treatments. In any case, it's an interesting moral conundrum, akin to abortion or euthanasia.
- michaelmrose 1y ago
- maxlin 1y agoI love and hate this type of Lex Friedman interviews. Several factors give out when there's a podcast that is posted uncut with a 8 hour length that I'd like to listen to. Wish he cut them!
- alanbernstein 1y agoI completely relate - but I listened to this one, alone, in full. Technology has produced many things you might call a miracle, but this one stands out.
- explodes 1y agoThis tech is incredible but it will be very divisive. Leadership of the current leading company notwithstanding, novel implants such as pacemakers have also undergone a stage of social caution that I would very much expect to surface for brain-interface devices as well, if not more fervently due to an increasing mistrust in technology's utility in our lives. I am personally hopeful for this technology. I know it will be able to improve the lives of loved ones who both need and want it. I am also afraid of a technology that can decide my thoughts one way or another... That said, I'll take two.
- xg15 1y agoDivisive is an understatement. If this tech could be made to work flawlessly, it would be the gate to all the SciFi cyborg stuff, including body enhancements, "telepathy", etc. Also, as a "side effect", it would open a path to fully immersive VR, as in Matrix, Snow Crash, Neuromancer, etc - with all the upsides and downsides of those scenarios. All that "just" from hooking up motor and sensor neurons. And then people would probably start and mess with neurons that are involved in cognitive functions and the consciousness. If generative AI had potential for cultish behavior, I think that will pale in comparison to this stuff.
- germinalphrase 1y agoThe dystopian downside is significant. It is not difficult to come up with half a dozen horrific outcomes of this technology.
- xg15 1y agoIndeed it is. I think the tech is enormously exciting, but the ways in which both ordinary people and people in power could abuse it, are obvious. I also don't trust the current brand of tech billionaires to handle this stuff responsibly - if they aren't specifically aiming for those dystopian scenarios even. Based on all of Musk's past behavior, he doesn't exactly strike me as a guy who would deeply care for the disabled or make it his life's mission to cure spinal cord injuries - or even to grant super powers with no strings attached to the average person. But he does seem like the kind of person who obsesses about the "next stage of evolution of the human race"...
- idiomat9000 1y agoI did not see any breakthroughs in neural link patents. Have they solved neural scaring?
- ceedan 1y agoNot sure but they did manage to make the patients say that it had changed their lives. :smirk:
- csours 1y agoTrade secrets?
- natosaichek 1y agoThere are flexible electrodes, rather than rigid arrays. The idea was that this would reduce scarring. I'm not aware of the exact results of the trials, but it works better than rigid arrays for longevity of recording.
- ACCount37 1y agoThis appears to be at least a partial solve for it. Older implants are notorious for having that issue - and while scarring doesn't appear to hurt the brain all that much, it sure does hurt the connectivity. The usual "bed of nails" Utah array typically deteriorates massively within 6 months. Neuralink's very first human implant has lasted for what, a year and a half already? It had issues with dislodged electrodes, which must have hurt the interface quality, but it still remains usable. That's a damn good sign.
- webdevver 1y agoso this is like MCP but for neurons? can they wire up the neurons that control ear twitch muscles to something useful e.g. "Open terminal" shortcut?
- swader999 1y agoJust don't let the playwright MCP anywhere near it
- Dilettante_ 1y ago>can they wire up the neurons [...] to something useful e.g. "Open terminal" shortcut? Pretty much. You could do something like that with non-invasive consumer-grade BCIs already though. What we really need to see is more distinct "keypresses" you can listen for. It's my understanding that something like "imagining pushing/pulling a heavy object" can be read clearly enough, while "twitching your left ear" gets lost in the noise. It's a long way to go before we can replace the 400 keystrokes per minute, 104/105 distinct keys bandwidth of a keyboard.
- b_e_n_t_o_n 1y agoHahahahaha
- voidUpdate 1y agoWith the ear twitch muscles, it would probably be easier to use muscle sensors, which are a lot cheaper and easier to use (stick them on the skin), instead of delving inside someone's brain
- femiagbabiaka 1y agoHave there been any reviews by independent experts? This reads like a promo piece, in particular I'm not sure why the fluff bits about Musk "being a regular guy" are relevant. Most of the linked sources are either other Fortune puff pieces or Neuralink press releases.
- bboygravity 1y ago[flagged]
- BlackjackCF 1y ago[flagged]
- macinjosh 1y agono, the psyop is getting the public to believe a single wave to a crowd is anything more than that.
- MarcelOlsz 1y agoDo it on one of your work zoom calls and report back.
- macinjosh 1y agoi tried it. went well! we are invading poland next quarter.
- BriggyDwiggs42 1y agoCooked, absolutely chopped.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- MarcelOlsz 1y ago
- cromulent 1y agoFriends with Parkinson's with neural implants anecdotally report great results, but of course with rather coarse tech. There seems to be lots of future potential. https://www.parkinson.org/living-with-parkinsons/treatment/surgical-treatment-options/deep-brain-stimulation https://www.parkinson.org/living-with-parkinsons/treatment/s...
- nibblenum 1y agoHas this been used for other health issues too?
- iancmceachern 1y agoYes, it comes from pacemaker tech, and is used for all kinds of dbs applications like this and also for pain blocking applications
- nibblenum 1y agothanks :)
- jauzeyimam 1y agoMy brother has had YOPD since his late 20s. He got DBS done about 3 years ago, and it was life changing. Not only in the symptom reduction (tremors and rigidity significantly reduced -- he walked straight for the first time in years, could button his shirts again, etc), but also in lifestyle improvements around the amount and frequency of medication, the ability to sleep properly (several side effects of both PD and the meds affect sleep), the ability for his body to actually relax. DBS, like you said, is rather course tech and actually quite old technology. Doctors still don't entirely know why it works, so the adjustment is often experimental. In fact prior to specialized MRI machines that they use during surgery now, the patients would remain awake during the placement (brain surgery) of the electrodes so that the surgeons would know when the placement was "correct" based on real-time assessment of their symptoms. Now they do it under MRI, but the point being it's far from an exact science. Can't wait to see what the future holds as they improve on it. Hard to imagine a world where his symptoms are fully managed (PD is progressive degeneration, so his symptoms, even with DBS are gradually worsening with time), but it was also hard to imagine how DBS could overnight change his life in the ways it did.
- SilverElfin 1y agoNeuralink is amazing technology and watching videos of participants who have completely different abilities and freedom with Neuralink implants is mind blowing. It’s sad that many want to dismiss these amazing achievements just because it’s an Elon Musk founded company. At some point you simply have to acknowledge his success (and his team’s), and hope they get further with all of this. For those interested in their clinical trials: https://neuralink.com/trials/ https://neuralink.com/trials/
- mritterhoff 1y ago[flagged]
- drdaeman 1y agoI'm not sure whenever it's a good idea to cheer for lack of life-changing technical progress just because it's ran by a company governed by an ethically problematic person. The person is temporary, the progress is permanent.
- apical_dendrite 1y agoThe damage that can be done by an unethical person is not always temporary.
- mritterhoff 1y agoI'm mostly cheering for more competition in the field. No reason for advances in life-changing technical progress to belong solely to that one company.
- michaelmrose 1y agoIt is if 99.9% don't need the tech and face worse outcomes in real life because of Musk
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago> It is if 99.9% don't need the tech and face worse outcomes in real life because of Musk Everyone with motor dysfunction should suffer so we can stick it to a racist man child? Who’s the villain in that narrative?
- ofjcihen 1y agoEveryone who has ever worked in security: “Ain’t no way”.
- sMarsIntruder 1y agoI’m not convinced this would apply to OpSec people who are physically unable to move any limbs. Pro and cons of course, but..
- iancmceachern 1y agoYeah, there is a whole interesting story about the Thoratec Heartmate II bloodbpump ("artificial heart") implant and Dick Chaney. Can't be having a back door into the VPs heart implant...
- nmeofthestate 1y agoI doubt that.
- jfoster 1y agoA computer virus that can access brains is a scary thought and I'm not sure what would alleviate that concern for me. That said, if you need this, the security side of it is a secondary concern to the very immediate quality of life improvement.
- apical_dendrite 1y ago[flagged]
- picafrost 1y agoI think anyone who chooses to undergo the first few trials of a new operation like this, and is informed about the risks, is very brave. I do not know much of anything about medical science, but my impression is that we are still very, very far from having a deep grasp of how both the brain and the immune system work. Ultimately, to the body an implant is simply a foreign object. Many tech professionals work on projects that effect people's lives in very serious ways. But a lot of folk seem to feel a bit of meaninglessness in this career and the threshold of making a mistake isn't very high. If it's an off day, sloppy work yesterday can be fixed with another PR. Building something that is meant to attach to someone's brain would be quite the burden to carry.
- ignoramous 1y ago> Ultimately, to the body an implant is simply a foreign object. I get your point but, there's a lot of foreign objects going in by the way of various pores and openings. Biological beings are surprisingly resilient & fragile at the same time.
- devinprater 1y agoI'll let other blind people go first, but I'm definitely some one that would love, love, love to be able to see. Driving, knowing body language, playing any and every video game out there, shoot yeah!
- jesterswilde 1y agoThe exact same comment I would write. Waitin for generation two of any of this kind of tech.
- BrandoElFollito 1y agoWhy would you not go first? If you are blind it cannot be worse (well it can, but there are always risks). My wife went through semi-expetimental therapy (at that time) for her MS. It was tough but ultimately a net benefit. It all depends on what is at stake - I would consider Ozempic for some weight loss but prefer, for now, go for no sugar and moderate portions. This is not life changing for me so I indeed prefer people who will benefit way more from it to go first.
- ecshafer 1y agowhat therapy did your wife go through?
- BrandoElFollito 1y agoThe very early form of TYSABRI
- anthk 1y agoThat's funny because Ozempic can blind you.
- loeg 1y agoIt’s associated, not causal, and likely explained by diabetes as a 3rd variable. (Diabetes can blind you and glp-1 drugs are treatments for diabetes.)
- FuriouslyAdrift 1y agoI still remember the first person with the Dobell Eye back in the late 90's https://archive.ph/3H31i https://archive.ph/3H31i https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Dobelle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Dobelle
- codr7 1y agoI'm sure it has; and I'm sure it will again, and again, with every single software update.
- CuriouslyC 1y agoMy son has cerebral palsy, doesn't talk and has poor motor skills. I certainly hope this technology progresses.
- ACCount37 1y agoUnfortunately, it'll be a while until this kind of interface is usable for that. Neuralink is currently running trials on quadriplegia - with people who have their motor cortex intact, but their spinal cords damaged. Cerebral palsy often involves damage to motor cortex. So wiring the implants into it might be of limited use. No one knows if it'll work, or how well. Targeting premotor cortex? It's extremely promising, but no one knows how to do that yet. In medicine, that means "years, if not decades, of research and development", sadly.
- SV_BubbleTime 1y agoI can’t imagine how frustrating it is to watch the tech move slowly from afar when you have the issue at home.
- fred_is_fred 1y agoI am rooting for success in the general field, but Elon's claims ranging from self-driving cars to autonomous taxi fleets to government cost savings of hundreds of billions need to all be viewed with skepticism. I'll need to see a a lot more than one patient.
- electriclove 1y agoSkepticism is good but I think there are 9 patients now. https://x.com/ModdedQuad/status/1953274433025786031 https://x.com/ModdedQuad/status/1953274433025786031
- akomtu 1y agoThe 1-st human that has undergone a partial stroggification?
- arnaudsm 1y ago[flagged]
- shiftpgdn 1y ago[flagged]
- tines 1y agoCan people not disagree without saying the other person has a derangement syndrome any more?
- protocolture 1y ago>Elon derangement syndrome. Named after patient zero I am sure.
- tick_tock_tick 1y ago> I'm impressed by Musk's PR team. They hype tech years behind competitors with puff pieces like this with gullible journalists that don't contextualize. Ok where is a paraplegic who's life has been fundamentally improved more then the Neuralink patient one by some of these other technologies that are "years" ahead?
- xyst 1y agoOnce the technology is replicated and perfected by somebody outside of Neuralink. I would potentially consider it. Also, the entire technology landscape would need to be changed. I don't want brain implants to be owned by the wealthy, as it currently exists. Elon Musk and PR team can fuck off.
- abrookewood 1y agoThis is genuinely exciting, but I still can't help thinking about the Black Mirror episode where a woman requires a subscription to stay alive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_People_(Black_Mirror) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_People_(Black_Mirror)
- SV_BubbleTime 1y agoA lot of potential for that episode. And I still love Roy, but I feel like that episode was a shallow as hell take on subscription services. Could have been a lot more.
- cal85 1y agoDon’t we all need subscriptions to stay alive?
- daveguy 1y agoNo.
- nisegami 1y agoThat's an awfully dismissive reply. I agree with the parent, we already all require subscriptions to stay alive. In the most literal sense that's going to be basic utilities like water, power and arguably connectivity. And then there are those who are dependent on a continued supply of medication as well.
- daveguy 1y agoThe parent post was an awfully broad sweeping statement that deserved an accurate reply. Obviously we don't "all need subscriptions to stay alive." I guess folks on hn have forgotten the difference between need and want.
- cal85 1y agoI don’t understand what you mean, but I’d like to. I think it is obvious that we all need subscriptions to survive (if “we” means free adults, and excluding people who steal etc). Do you not agree? Please spell it out for me, I’m honestly intrigued to understand what you mean, and I am asking in good faith.
- hn_throw_250826 1y agoAnti Tesla hate is just silly. Grow up
- stn_za 1y agoTarget audience here are all libs from Sillicon Valley who has been trained to hate spaceshipman
- voidUpdate 1y agopersonally, I don't necessarily hate the work that Musk's companies do, I think that some of the advances that spaceX have made are excellent, but I just don't like supporting Musk, seeing as he has been very outspoken against people like me, and supports people who hate me
- ckemere 1y agoI think that the negativity here is unfortunate. The reality is that it’s very hard to see a normal VC level return on the $100M+ Elon and friends have invested here. And don’t let anyone fool you - this is the fundamental reason the BCI field has moved slowly. If Neuralink proceeds to a scenario where quadriplegic patients can get reliable (ie lifelong) control of their computers for less than $100k that will be a huge win for them for a cost that no one else was willing to pay. To be clear, at that order of magnitude they might make back their investment, but it won’t be 10x or 100x, and the potential healthy-brain-connected-to-the-AI play is much less rooted in reality than Teslas all becoming taxis. Worst case scenario is that Elon loses interest and pulls the plug and Mr Arbaugh loses continued tech support a la a google product. I think that’s the one question I wish the author had asked…
- chakintosh 1y agoThe endgame for Neuralink here, and most other competitors in the field is to use these transplants on healthy people as well to "enhance" human function.
- hnthrowawayacct 1y agoOne of the biggest unsolved issues with BCI and neural implants is the immune response to implanted electrodes. The tissue buildup and fluid that encapsulates the probe or stimulator drastically increases the impedance of the device and causes all sorts of hard to solve problems for longevity of the implant and whatever therapy or recording it's trying to accomplish.
- torginus 1y agoVCs don't actually like risk, and can't distinguish snake-oil from groundbreaking inventions - more news at 11
- g42gregory 1y agoDon’t forget, we are currently running “Elon is bad” narrative. Apparently, many people listen.
- 1y ago
- rudderdev 1y agoToo much marketing speak without the demo. I have read this long article and did read some more related content on the internet, so let me summarize it for you. With Neuralink, - Noland can control cursor of his computer - He can schedule calendar meetings - He can control his purifier, television, etc. - He can play games like mario kart I could only find this demo on the internet where Noland plays chess - https://x.com/i/broadcasts/1ypJdkXjaLNGW https://x.com/i/broadcasts/1ypJdkXjaLNGW
- 63 1y agoThere's a lot of both negativity and positivity here. I think both are warranted and important. I'm not generally a fan of Musk and think most of his ventures are overhyped. I also understand that Neuralink committed a series of horrific acts against macaques to develop this device and they ought to be investigated and have what they did shown to the public for scrutiny. That said, as someone who has undergone screening for a neurodegenerative disease (thankfully I tested negative), I'm fairly confident in saying that it's an awful thing to experience and any technology that can provide more autonomy is invaluable. When I had to confront the possibility that I might have MS or ALS, I literally said "Neuralink probably shouldn't have killed those monkeys but, fuck it, they're already dead so they better hurry up. I don't want to live like that." I hope we can develop further treatments more ethically and in a way that doesn't result in dystopian brain adverts of course, but even this level of technology is miraculous.
- maxlin 1y agoLove to see it. Wonder if Neuralink ever comes up with less invasive tech that could be used for fun like Emotiv EPOC, but even if they don't, maybe getting one implanted will be as normal as getting a tattoo or a piercing give some years. Because I see this being desirable for "normal" people pretty much already!
- leoh 1y ago>it seems to me that only science, aided by human decency, common sense, farsightedness, and concern for the unfortunate and the poor, offers the world any hope in its present morass. Oliver Sachs
- gethly 1y agoI'm sure that lives of those animals whom are being tortured for this tech to be developed were changed as well.
- weregiraffe 1y agoAs you typed these words, millions of animals out in the wild were being devoured alive by other animals. Torture was here before humans.
- mailund 1y agoI don't feel like it is unreasonable to put a different set of ethical standards to an animal out in the wild and a human.
- weregiraffe 1y agoSure, as long as it concerns other humans.
- stavros 1y agoGiven the billions of animals we torture for food, at least the ones tortured for the good of humanity are slightly less unjustified. However, "animals kill each other in nature all the time" is not a good argument, because I don't have to hold myself to the moral standards of a hyena.
- weregiraffe 1y agoThe hyena can't and won't appreciate it. Why do you have moral standards that don't require reciprocity? Do you think god will reward you in heaven?
- stavros 1y agoYou don't have moral standards?
- freetime2 1y agoI wish they wouldn’t call it “Elon Musk’s Brain Chip”. I guess it is true in a sense since he owns the majority of Neuralink. But it feels unfair to the scientists and engineers who actually designed it, and to all the people who could benefit from it, to overemphasize Musk’s involvement. Considering all the possible future implications of a Brain Computer Interface - both positive and negative - I would say Musk’s involvement is the least interesting part of this story.
- xchip 1y agoOf course he said that